1) I've read the primer and a few posts, and I'm wondering, why the deck turned out to drop disciple of the vault + arcbound ravager + atog and the genesis chamber shell? I can see it more clearly for legacy while I had stronger doubts in modern, but I'd still appreciate to understand it better.I kinda liked the more "comboish" nature of that build, I guess it's just too weak now?
There's are stronger cards to use like Etched Champion, Signal Pest, and Vault Skirge. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas ultimate ability will usually do more damage than the old Disciple + Ravager combo.
2)How do you deal with high artifact hate? Especially if they pack some in game 1 for some reasons?
You should try not bring Affinity if there are plenty of decks like that in your meta.
3) How is the deck placed? is it a tier 1 or is getting behind the times? I usually play different type of decks but since this will be a budget choice I want atleast to be sure on how I'm placed in the meta generally...
Not very well placed in Legacy at the moment. Though it's currently at "Proven" section in Modern.
4)More of a dumb question probably.If someone packs some wrath of god style for artifacts can or should we answer with an hurkyll recall trying to save what is possible or is just a bad scenario? Just a fun thought I've had today.
Same answer as your second question. If there are plenty of decks like that, then don't bring Affinity.
5) I'm guessing the tezz U/B and maybe some R is the standard deck right? I understand that the deck can easily be 5 color but I guess mainly it plays into ubr spells when it's not colorless?
2 or 3 Tezz is what some recent winning lists have. Using W for Dispatch and Stoneforge Mystic is also done by some builds.
It's really stellar against decks like RUG Delver, Jund, BUG Delver. Pretty much any of the styles of deck running Tarmogoyf and other cheap creatures like value of one sort or another. Suddenly, they have to choose between leaving themselves open to an all in swarm swing from Affinity or keeping mana open to play a spell. Sometimes, they can't do either. It's usually just enough interference for just long enough to wrap up the game.
Basically, it's gold against pretty much any "fair" deck in Legacy. If the deck wants 3-4 available mana and plays creatures, then Tangle Wire awesome. It's not really fast enough (even with Ancient Tomb) to handle absurd combo like Charbelcher. I have tested it against Counterbalance Miracles and it was good in that matchup too if you can get it to land past counters. It prevents them from having open mana during the draw step for their miracles or for Top.
I need to test against Show and Tell with it. I wonder if there are enough versions of it that won't have enough lands in play to attack with Emrakul next turn if I drop it to the Show. Although, Sneak Attack versions clearly have an advantage with the haste. Hmmmm.
That's awesome. I will have to try it out. How do you think it would fair against Esper stoneblade?
That's awesome. I will have to try it out. How do you think it would fair against Esper stoneblade?
I think it will keep them off of Jace, the Mindsculptor mana on the turns that they need him to help answer your threats. It can probably help reduce the stalling power of their Lingering Souls tokens. No control deck is going to enjoy having to tap out their mana base during their upkeep.
Be aware, that they also have access to the best trick to "cheat" on Tangle Wire that we do - tapping down equipment. Tapped equipment loses no value for the player as long as the creature itself is untapped. I don't think it's really a problem for you, as long as you remember to factor in the equipment into your math as a possible permanent for them to tap.
Even before I started running Tangle Wire, I had few problems with Stoneblade matchups. We're much faster than them, and Etched Champion nullifies Batterskull.
The thing about this deck is that too many cards are crap. x4 0/2 ornithopter? I wouldn't even draft that card on the fourth or fifth pass. spring leaf drum and signal pest, really? there are too many low-value cheap filler cards, and it makes the deck kind of frumpy, to be frank.
The thing about this deck is that too many cards are crap. x4 0/2 ornithopter? I wouldn't even draft that card on the fourth or fifth pass. spring leaf drum and signal pest, really? there are too many low-value cheap filler cards, and it makes the deck kind of frumpy, to be frank.
It's the double edged sword of this deck's strategy. You can't get much for zero casting cost artifacts. Yet they're essential to turn on early Affinity and Metalcraft. They're not exactly filler. You have to run a certain number of them in order to reliably draw enough. Unfortunately, it makes you dependent on fewer high value cards.
It's just the way the deck is. Creative deck tweaking and mulligan decisions can help reduce the negative effect some.
I think it will keep them off of Jace, the Mindsculptor mana on the turns that they need him to help answer your threats. It can probably help reduce the stalling power of their Lingering Souls tokens. No control deck is going to enjoy having to tap out their mana base during their upkeep.
Be aware, that they also have access to the best trick to "cheat" on Tangle Wire that we do - tapping down equipment. Tapped equipment loses no value for the player as long as the creature itself is untapped. I don't think it's really a problem for you, as long as you remember to factor in the equipment into your math as a possible permanent for them to tap.
Even before I started running Tangle Wire, I had few problems with Stoneblade matchups. We're much faster than them, and Etched Champion nullifies Batterskull.
So, running Tangle Wire, What do you tap down every upkeep?
Opponent would have to tap down 4 Artifacts, lands, creatures, etc,
and then we'd have to tap down 3... Ideally, what are we tapping besides the Wire itself?
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Ornithopter/Memnite/Cranial Plating ideally. I believe that even Pest or Skirge would be fine. I think the idea is to trade your attack step for them to do nothing but draw and play a land. That's at worse. At best you just tap out two Ornithopters that aren't doing anything and then play Tezz or Cranial+equip and swing.
Ornithopter/Memnite/Cranial Plating ideally. I believe that even Pest or Skirge would be fine. I think the idea is to trade your attack step for them to do nothing but draw and play a land. That's at worse. At best you just tap out two Ornithopters that aren't doing anything and then play Tezz or Cranial+equip and swing.
Raggedjoe got it pretty much right on. Ideally, during your upkeep you choose to remove a counter to Fading before tapping down your permanents. Then you tap the Tangle Wire itself. That leaves you with a paltry two permanents to tap. Depending on your hand and board state, you just pick whatever you need the least. Cranial Plating is ideal, because you lose nothing. Memnite is a usual suspect because of its low value.
Sometimes you may want to tap a land if you're not going to tap out for a Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. You may already have all the mana you need for other things and have no Tezz in hand, etc. Sometimes, you'll have lots of Memnite, Ornithopter, and Signal Pest that you'll want to attack with, so you tap down a pointless Springleaf Drum.
I will say that the worst case scenario of skipping your attack step due to tapping your own permanents is something that only happens rarely. Usually, only because you are forced to drop Tangle Wire a turn or two earlier than you would like because you want to prevent a particular line of play from the opponent.
I'll say this much for playing with Wire. You do not want to simply blind drop it onto the battlefield just because you can. Often, it is best to wait until your board state will allow you to tap meaningless things and still attack for damage.
so there is a Legacy Open in Dc here next week I'll be slamming Affinity instead of Dredge, thinking on maindecking Chalice as well, likely not, but worth a consideration
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Perhaps a dumb idea/question, but is there any potential behind wild beastmaster in an affinity list? It's got to stick around for a turn, but the pump provided via plating to the deck's creatures seems like it could be an interesting combo-haymaker.
Perhaps a dumb idea/question, but is there any potential behind wild beastmaster in an affinity list? It's got to stick around for a turn, but the pump provided via plating to the deck's creatures seems like it could be an interesting combo-haymaker.
Compare it to Tezzeret. They go crazy on the same turn, but Tezz doesn't die to StP, Lightning bolt, or Abrupt Decay. Also Tezzeret generates CA, and has an occasionally useful -2. So Beastmaster doesn't replace Tezzeret. So it has to replace either Etched Champion or MoE, plus is a third color. That doesn't sound too good to me. Plus Cranial gives +x/+0, so he still dies to every burn spell or chump blocking.
Maybe you could cut Ravager for him, but cutting a a 2 drop for a colored 3 drop doesn't sound great.
He is also just an overcosted Signal Pest without the artifact synergy if you don't have Plating. I love cards like Tezz because traditionally, Affinity in Legacy is just a bad deck when it doesn't have Cranial Plating. The less reliant your deck is on Plating the better in my opinion. Yes, Plating is absolutely insane whenever it does stick around, but you need to be prepared for the games where they counter it, it gets removed, or whatever. Tezz and Master of Etherium really help in this regard.
He is also just an overcosted Signal Pest without the artifact synergy if you don't have Plating. I love cards like Tezz because traditionally, Affinity in Legacy is just a bad deck when it doesn't have Cranial Plating. The less reliant your deck is on Plating the better in my opinion. Yes, Plating is absolutely insane whenever it does stick around, but you need to be prepared for the games where they counter it, it gets removed, or whatever. Tezz and Master of Etherium really help in this regard.
I pretty much have to agree with this. If you really want the Wild Beastmaster style of effect then just use Signal Pest. Technically, not quite as good. But you can dump two Signal Pest onto the battlefield off of a turn 1 Ancient Tomb. I think the speed and reliability of a cheaper, colorless Pest just beat out Beastmaster in this deck.
The thing about this deck is that too many cards are crap. x4 0/2 ornithopter? I wouldn't even draft that card on the fourth or fifth pass. spring leaf drum and signal pest, really? there are too many low-value cheap filler cards, and it makes the deck kind of frumpy, to be frank.
I'm sorry, it seems like you're comparing drafting to literally any format. You know that they share nothing in common, right?
I wouldn't draft an Ornithopter because at best, it requires things to be activated.
I would, however, definitely play it in Affinity because on turn one, it adds to Affinity, Metalcraft, turn 2 on it adds to Cranial Plating, carries a Cranial Plating, gets eaten by a Ravager, carries Ravager counters.
So yes, in draft, it has narrow applications. Affinity is about swarming a bunch of cards with synergy, which you have a different sort of control over in draft.
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RBurn UBRSac Land Tendrils UBRGOops, All Spells
WUGPhelddagrif GGGOmnath, Locus of Mana BBBXiahou Dun, the One-Eyed RRRAshling, the Pilgrim BBWTeysa, Scion of Orzhov UUUTalrand, Sky Summoner UUBVela the Night-Clad GGBVhati il-Dal RUWRuhan of the Fomori
That's right, I'm talking about a card that costs U and draws us three cards, the major downside however, is that you need to tap FOUR untapped creatures...
So, I started thinking about a creature shell that might assist in the easy casting on a turn 1 Shared Discovery,
I wanted to gather some opinions on the card before I went into testing, right now it's all theory and want to inspire some testing amongst others as well as testing it myself.
Just my opinion and own theorizing, but I think Shared Discovery just requires too much tapping down. I just don't think it can compete with Thoughtcast, because of this. Thoughtcast allows you to draw into a Cranial Plating, play and equip, and swing all in the same turn of the midgame. You most likely won't be swinging the same turn when you play Shared Discovery.
It's also worth noting that creature light opening hands become weaker, and creature removal can act as pseudo-counter to Discovery once they're onto your game plan.
Just my opinion and own theorizing, but I think Shared Discovery just requires too much tapping down. I just don't think it can compete with Thoughtcast, because of this. Thoughtcast allows you to draw into a Cranial Plating, play and equip, and swing all in the same turn of the midgame. You most likely won't be swinging the same turn when you play Shared Discovery.
It's also worth noting that creature light opening hands become weaker, and creature removal can act as pseudo-counter to Discovery once they're onto your game plan.
Yeah, that's what I thought, I might end up trying it in Modern, I knew trying it in Legacy was a bit of a stretch... I'm wondering if Brainstorm might not be a good Idea as well, I'll admit, that one IS a stretch...
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Yeah, that's what I thought, I might end up trying it in Modern, I knew trying it in Legacy was a bit of a stretch... I'm wondering if Brainstorm might not be a good Idea as well, I'll admit, that one IS a stretch...
Brainstorm really shines when you combine it with fetchlands, so you can shuffle away the unwanted cards. Otherwise, you're just drawing 1 card and putting your worst two back on top.
Brainstorm really shines when you combine it with fetchlands, so you can shuffle away the unwanted cards. Otherwise, you're just drawing 1 card and putting your worst two back on top.
In a thoughtseize heavy meta, T1 brainstorm to hide your best cards in your deck while they Thoughtseize into your hand not being able to get your best stuff (because you can't cast it yet, etc) would still be good. Right? Almost every time I play legacy, my hand gets hit on their turn 1, I'm just lucky enough that I get the play and usually dump my hand, they pick up the scraps or the thing I couldn't cast yet (It's usually a land or Etched Champion that gets hit to me, occaisionally they get the odd Cranial Plating.)
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In a thoughtseize heavy meta, T1 brainstorm to hide your best cards in your deck while they Thoughtseize into your hand not being able to get your best stuff (because you can't cast it yet, etc) would still be good. Right? Almost every time I play legacy, my hand gets hit on their turn 1, I'm just lucky enough that I get the play and usually dump my hand, they pick up the scraps or the thing I couldn't cast yet (It's usually a land or Etched Champion that gets hit to me, occaisionally they get the odd Cranial Plating.)
Yes, there's that trick too. Thank you for pointing that out. I forgot to mention it. I never really considered it super relevant to Affinity. But you bring up a valid point. It may be worth testing out in some practice games if you're that desperate to get past T1 Thoughtseize.
I try to get around that threat by packing a little more threat density in my deck. Ancient Tomb has been invaluable to this end. And I cannot emphasize enough how much I love the direction that it's taking my build lately. It allows you to push your threat count (Arcbound Ravager, Etched Champion, Master of Etherium) higher than builds not running it. And the occasional T1 Cranial Plating + 0 drops is nothing to sneeze at. T1 Thoughtseize is not nearly as scary when you're more likely to have 2 (or more) must answer cards in your opening hand that you're capable of playing in the first 2 turns. T1 Thoughtseize backed up by T2 removal or Hymn to Tourach is another matter, but what do you do when your opponent has all the answers? lol
Yes, there's that trick too. Thank you for pointing that out. I forgot to mention it. I never really considered it super relevant to Affinity. But you bring up a valid point. It may be worth testing out in some practice games if you're that desperate to get past T1 Thoughtseize.
I try to get around that threat by packing a little more threat density in my deck. Ancient Tomb has been invaluable to this end. And I cannot emphasize enough how much I love the direction that it's taking my build lately. It allows you to push your threat count (Arcbound Ravager, Etched Champion, Master of Etherium) higher than builds not running it. And the occasional T1 Cranial Plating + 0 drops is nothing to sneeze at. T1 Thoughtseize is not nearly as scary when you're more likely to have 2 (or more) must answer cards in your opening hand that you're capable of playing in the first 2 turns. T1 Thoughtseize backed up by T2 removal or Hymn to Tourach is another matter, but what do you do when your opponent has all the answers? lol
Yeah, i've been running Ancient Tomb since like, last august, Except there's times where I wanna keep the hand, and it doesn't have a tomb in it, but I'm still stuck with a thoughtcast in hand and usually I always wish it was Brainstorm, I think i might try it out, PLUS it gives me an excuse to go buy 4 japanese IvG Duel Decks for $15 each, :D. (I'm trying to get my affinity deck to be all japanese cards, it's a painstaking process, especially when I can't find cheaper Ravagers and Art-lands... Plus, Japanese foil ravagers are like $100 a pop anyways.. but that's a different topic.
Either way, I've already dropped Signal pest from my build to incorporate Erayo and Canonist... Brainstorm would be an excellent addition i think.
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Guys, this is a really terrible idea. We don't leave mana open turn 1. Brainstorm is useless in this deck except to dodge Thoughtseize ET co, but the odds that you will have BS and they have Thoughtseize is minuscule. Plus it's a useless card against every other deck in the universe. Get real.
How could you ever wish Thoughtcast was a BS? Thoughtcast gives you +1 card, brainstorm reorders your draws. Ponder is better than BS in this deck since we have no shuffle effects, and Preordain is too.
I am attending SCG Milwaukee next weekend and I am taking affinity along with me. I know it isn't the most competitive deck, but I am curious as to what you guys think has the best match ups over all. I have access to all kinds and I'm mostly worried about my match ups with Stoneblade and combo decks. Any and all help is welcome.
To improve your SFM matchup, I would run him yourself. 3 SFM and 1 Jitte will blank enemy Jittes, plus on your fliers, Jitte is just the ****. It's great against miracles, because it allows you to not over extend. Drop SFM and Jitte, then any beater and go to town
I am attending SCG Milwaukee next weekend and I am taking affinity along with me. I know it isn't the most competitive deck, but I am curious as to what you guys think has the best match ups over all. I have access to all kinds and I'm mostly worried about my match ups with Stoneblade and combo decks. Any and all help is welcome.
There's are stronger cards to use like Etched Champion, Signal Pest, and Vault Skirge.
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas ultimate ability will usually do more damage than the old Disciple + Ravager combo.
You should try not bring Affinity if there are plenty of decks like that in your meta.
Not very well placed in Legacy at the moment. Though it's currently at "Proven" section in Modern.
Same answer as your second question. If there are plenty of decks like that, then don't bring Affinity.
2 or 3 Tezz is what some recent winning lists have. Using W for Dispatch and Stoneforge Mystic is also done by some builds.
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That's awesome. I will have to try it out. How do you think it would fair against Esper stoneblade?
I think it will keep them off of Jace, the Mindsculptor mana on the turns that they need him to help answer your threats. It can probably help reduce the stalling power of their Lingering Souls tokens. No control deck is going to enjoy having to tap out their mana base during their upkeep.
Be aware, that they also have access to the best trick to "cheat" on Tangle Wire that we do - tapping down equipment. Tapped equipment loses no value for the player as long as the creature itself is untapped. I don't think it's really a problem for you, as long as you remember to factor in the equipment into your math as a possible permanent for them to tap.
Even before I started running Tangle Wire, I had few problems with Stoneblade matchups. We're much faster than them, and Etched Champion nullifies Batterskull.
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It's the double edged sword of this deck's strategy. You can't get much for zero casting cost artifacts. Yet they're essential to turn on early Affinity and Metalcraft. They're not exactly filler. You have to run a certain number of them in order to reliably draw enough. Unfortunately, it makes you dependent on fewer high value cards.
It's just the way the deck is. Creative deck tweaking and mulligan decisions can help reduce the negative effect some.
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So, running Tangle Wire, What do you tap down every upkeep?
Opponent would have to tap down 4 Artifacts, lands, creatures, etc,
and then we'd have to tap down 3... Ideally, what are we tapping besides the Wire itself?
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Raggedjoe got it pretty much right on. Ideally, during your upkeep you choose to remove a counter to Fading before tapping down your permanents. Then you tap the Tangle Wire itself. That leaves you with a paltry two permanents to tap. Depending on your hand and board state, you just pick whatever you need the least. Cranial Plating is ideal, because you lose nothing. Memnite is a usual suspect because of its low value.
Sometimes you may want to tap a land if you're not going to tap out for a Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. You may already have all the mana you need for other things and have no Tezz in hand, etc. Sometimes, you'll have lots of Memnite, Ornithopter, and Signal Pest that you'll want to attack with, so you tap down a pointless Springleaf Drum.
I will say that the worst case scenario of skipping your attack step due to tapping your own permanents is something that only happens rarely. Usually, only because you are forced to drop Tangle Wire a turn or two earlier than you would like because you want to prevent a particular line of play from the opponent.
I'll say this much for playing with Wire. You do not want to simply blind drop it onto the battlefield just because you can. Often, it is best to wait until your board state will allow you to tap meaningless things and still attack for damage.
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Compare it to Tezzeret. They go crazy on the same turn, but Tezz doesn't die to StP, Lightning bolt, or Abrupt Decay. Also Tezzeret generates CA, and has an occasionally useful -2. So Beastmaster doesn't replace Tezzeret. So it has to replace either Etched Champion or MoE, plus is a third color. That doesn't sound too good to me. Plus Cranial gives +x/+0, so he still dies to every burn spell or chump blocking.
Maybe you could cut Ravager for him, but cutting a a 2 drop for a colored 3 drop doesn't sound great.
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I pretty much have to agree with this. If you really want the Wild Beastmaster style of effect then just use Signal Pest. Technically, not quite as good. But you can dump two Signal Pest onto the battlefield off of a turn 1 Ancient Tomb. I think the speed and reliability of a cheaper, colorless Pest just beat out Beastmaster in this deck.
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I'm sorry, it seems like you're comparing drafting to literally any format. You know that they share nothing in common, right?
I wouldn't draft an Ornithopter because at best, it requires things to be activated.
I would, however, definitely play it in Affinity because on turn one, it adds to Affinity, Metalcraft, turn 2 on it adds to Cranial Plating, carries a Cranial Plating, gets eaten by a Ravager, carries Ravager counters.
So yes, in draft, it has narrow applications. Affinity is about swarming a bunch of cards with synergy, which you have a different sort of control over in draft.
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I began looking at cantrips and whatnot, nothing seemed to work, except...
Shared Discovery
That's right, I'm talking about a card that costs U and draws us three cards, the major downside however, is that you need to tap FOUR untapped creatures...
So, I started thinking about a creature shell that might assist in the easy casting on a turn 1 Shared Discovery,
Something like -
4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Frogmite
4 Vault Skirge
I wanted to gather some opinions on the card before I went into testing, right now it's all theory and want to inspire some testing amongst others as well as testing it myself.
Just a thought.
Also, what about Final Fortune in U/R builds?
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It's also worth noting that creature light opening hands become weaker, and creature removal can act as pseudo-counter to Discovery once they're onto your game plan.
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Yeah, that's what I thought, I might end up trying it in Modern, I knew trying it in Legacy was a bit of a stretch... I'm wondering if Brainstorm might not be a good Idea as well, I'll admit, that one IS a stretch...
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Brainstorm really shines when you combine it with fetchlands, so you can shuffle away the unwanted cards. Otherwise, you're just drawing 1 card and putting your worst two back on top.
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In a thoughtseize heavy meta, T1 brainstorm to hide your best cards in your deck while they Thoughtseize into your hand not being able to get your best stuff (because you can't cast it yet, etc) would still be good. Right? Almost every time I play legacy, my hand gets hit on their turn 1, I'm just lucky enough that I get the play and usually dump my hand, they pick up the scraps or the thing I couldn't cast yet (It's usually a land or Etched Champion that gets hit to me, occaisionally they get the odd Cranial Plating.)
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Yes, there's that trick too. Thank you for pointing that out. I forgot to mention it. I never really considered it super relevant to Affinity. But you bring up a valid point. It may be worth testing out in some practice games if you're that desperate to get past T1 Thoughtseize.
I try to get around that threat by packing a little more threat density in my deck. Ancient Tomb has been invaluable to this end. And I cannot emphasize enough how much I love the direction that it's taking my build lately. It allows you to push your threat count (Arcbound Ravager, Etched Champion, Master of Etherium) higher than builds not running it. And the occasional T1 Cranial Plating + 0 drops is nothing to sneeze at. T1 Thoughtseize is not nearly as scary when you're more likely to have 2 (or more) must answer cards in your opening hand that you're capable of playing in the first 2 turns. T1 Thoughtseize backed up by T2 removal or Hymn to Tourach is another matter, but what do you do when your opponent has all the answers? lol
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Yeah, i've been running Ancient Tomb since like, last august, Except there's times where I wanna keep the hand, and it doesn't have a tomb in it, but I'm still stuck with a thoughtcast in hand and usually I always wish it was Brainstorm, I think i might try it out, PLUS it gives me an excuse to go buy 4 japanese IvG Duel Decks for $15 each, :D. (I'm trying to get my affinity deck to be all japanese cards, it's a painstaking process, especially when I can't find cheaper Ravagers and Art-lands... Plus, Japanese foil ravagers are like $100 a pop anyways.. but that's a different topic.
Either way, I've already dropped Signal pest from my build to incorporate Erayo and Canonist... Brainstorm would be an excellent addition i think.
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How could you ever wish Thoughtcast was a BS? Thoughtcast gives you +1 card, brainstorm reorders your draws. Ponder is better than BS in this deck since we have no shuffle effects, and Preordain is too.
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Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Combo matchups will largely come down to your sideboard choices. Luckily, Affinity has good options to choose from - Pithing Needle, Cabal Therapy, Chalice of the Void, Ethersworn Canonist, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Grafdigger's Cage, etc. You may even consider a few maindeck Phyrexian Revoker if you're super worried about activated abilities.
Honestly, I've never found Stoneblade to be a difficult matchup. A full 4 Etched Champion main does wonders. Raggedjoe's advice is also solid.
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