is eater of days oing to be an include in these builds or is it too risky to paly it and get your orb destroyed
Eater is terrible.
lets not forget that, people can destroy the orb in responce to playing the eater and then his ability will trigger. Way to kill yourself with your own creature.
Dreadnaught is cheaper,bigger,better.
Those deck lists discussed in the new card section will never happen.
Any thoughts? I know we can't Workshop into it, but stifleless Dreadnought seems pretty tasty.
My thoughts,
1 Stifle is an amazing card, getting to run it is a huge perk
2 TO can't be tutored for with Trinket Mage and the second TO is a dead draw where as any Stifle/Trickbind is awesome simply because people run fetch lands alone
3 Stifle is instant speed, Trickbind is instant speed with split second whereas TO isn't
I feel that the advantage of running Stifle and Trickbind comes with their instant speed and ability to interact with your opponents deck. 6 Stifle effects plus the wastelock really can close a game by itself or keep your opponent off critical mana sources.
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"It was probably a lousy spell in the first place."
—Ertai, wizard adept
Torpor Orb is terrible. 9/10 times Trinket Mage+Tools and Trickbind will be better than a ☺☺☺☺ty artifact that lets you Cheat a Dreadnought into play. With the exception of maybe Goblins, it makes no matchups better (and even here the point about Trinket Mage and Trickbind may indeed be valid)
Torpor Orb weakens counterbalance as it discourages you from running 3cc cards maindeck.
On a note that actually is relevent to making the deck better, Mental Misstep is the stone cold balls in Dreadstill, it makes the best card in the deck; Standstill better than it has ever been before. If you are not playing 4 you are doing it wrong.
just IMHO. torpor orb maybe the card to make stiflenaught a bit more consistent. 1-2 of in a deck would be nice.
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It seems unlikely that another card that does nothing by itself in a control shell will make it better. Dreadnaught is already notably weak by itself, and so is orb. If you're running a 2-card combo that is vulnerable to hate, it might as well be thopter/sword or painter/stone so you don't get completely screwed by spot removal.
JV, how are you making MM fit? Slots are so tight, and fitting in 4 more (is it a 1cc or 0cc for CB?) non 2-cc spells while keeping a CB curve sounds tough.
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JV, how are you making MM fit? Slots are so tight, and fitting in 4 more (is it a 1cc or 0cc for CB?) non 2-cc spells while keeping a CB curve sounds tough.
I thinking of picking up this deck and was wondering why builds seem to be using red over black as a second color. Bob alone seems more useful than anything red adds, while black can provide spot removal and sweepers. If lavamancer is primarily for fish, then why not just use llawan? I'd appreciate the advice of people far more experienced with the deck than I.
I thinking of picking up this deck and was wondering why builds seem to be using red over black as a second color. Bob alone seems more useful than anything red adds, while black can provide spot removal and sweepers. If lavamancer is primarily for fish, then why not just use llawan? I'd appreciate the advice of people far more experienced with the deck than I.
The debate goes back and forth from red to black. We have a hard time against swarm aggro so firesprout and clasm seem like natural choices. I have tested sweepers from black to much displeasure. Ideally sweepers can really shore up the goblin matchup but when your sweepers require BB (such as black sun or infest) your opponent now just has to keep you off BB game 3.
Il try to Pros and Cons list, though i'm sure some will disagree with my selections.
Red PROS
-Lavamancer turn one eats aggro and merfolk, combined with maindeck collar, he kills almost everything.
-Sweepers are amazing vs zoo,merfolk and goblins.
-Lightning bolt/REB are great spot removal in the above matchups.
Red CONS
-Not alot of cards ran maindeck,with so many good colors to splash I often feel we don't get the milage out of red.
-Removal is limited, You can't really kill Gofy,tombstalker, or other fattys.
-The reach that spells like Lightning bolt provide is often moot when our offensive is a 12/12.
Black PROS
-Dark Confidant is amazing. Theres nothing like him for a control deck. An unforseen bonus is that your opponent sometimes think they can kill you with him so they are apprehensive to swing, at which point you can get rid of him at your leisure and probably kill something else.
-Plague is great vs goblins, and can be used vs merfolk.
-Executioner's capsule maindeck offers spot removal that can be tutored for.
-Hand destruction maindeck can make combo matchups 80/20
-Access to spot removal,Go for the throat,smother,edict,snuff out.
-Has some sweepers, infest,zenith,damnation
Black Cons
-Many cards requires BB, not good when we already want UU for counterbalance.
-Many cards cause life loss, as a control deck this can make aggro matchups harder
-Sweepers are much more conditional and are usually more expensive.
On llawan, her cost and limited use make her very unattractive. Fish pack counterspells like daze and force, the games against fish seldom last more than 5 turns. She becomes a really all in plan, also fish use vial which gets around llawan so your all in plan may be all for not. I have tested her and would never use her. She works against 1 deck and she can be really subpar. You don't need to hardlock the game to win. A well timed pyroclasm can be all you need.
alright guys... ive been workin on this for a while. Its not quite dreadstill... pretty much because I cut standstill... thus I cuts factory. but here it is:
First off. I assume you havent played this competitively before. So I will enlighten you on a secret of ours... Aether Vial eats countertop decks alive, and Goblin Lackey is a handful aswell. Seeing as how they are both 1CMC, i think 4x Mental Misstep's are a shoe in. Not to mention that it also counters 100 other relevant spells including StP, which is the most common answer to a resolved dreadnought.
Also, in my experience's, 8 land that tap for colorless is ROUGH... especialy when you consider that Counterbalance takes two blue.
Its also very, very tempting to keep a good looking hand with a Mishra's Factory and a Sensei's Divining Top, because of course you'll top into a blue, right? Well more often than I care for it to happen, you top into a waste, factory, or ruins. which puts you at a severe temop loss. Basicly you just time warped your opponent.
Also, another thing I've noticed... is that a keepable hand usualy consists of top, a blue land, and some other junk. Top is by far the single most valuable card to this deck IMHO. Although its not all sunshine and rainbows to 2 tops in your opening hand, its better than seeing 0. I suggest running 3. Although others might disagree with this, 3 is my personal preferance.
1 last thing.
The defining factor between control builds with dreadnought and other control builds is its ability to say "turn 2 dreadnought" pretty often (putting freakish pressure on every other deck to find an answer in 2 turns or die). I would suggest 4x noughts. 3x only if you decide to add the E.Tutors.
P.S.
Since your running red, maindeck Grim Lavamancer's can be randomly amazing. Also, if you resolve it T1 vs merfolk... its basicly an auto-win. Even with a vial online.
Your right about stifle + wasteland. they do have great synergy, and its an amazing play early game... possiblely the best play in this deck. But in my experience playing this deck for the last year - year 1/2... all the colorless mana is just devestating to keepable hands. They arent bad to draw into, but to see 2 lands in your opening hand that produce colorless, makes you die a little inside. You shouldnt have to aggressively mulligan for blue lands. Again, this is just my opinion and personal experiances. Im sure others have had great success with 4 wastes and 4 factories. I like 3 wastes personaly, although I only listed 2 in my current decklist. I only have 2 atm, ill be putting in a 3rd when I snag one.
And again, you are correct about factory supporting standstill... which is one of the reasons I cut standstill all together. Standstill was the most amazing card that blows in the meta we play in right now; of course the meta will soon be changing due to MM... Now, dont get me wrong, I love standstill. Its great VS combo, midrange, and some other control variants, and it was a very difficult choice to drop them. But here are some of the resons I decided to drop it.
1. I get to cut factory.
2. Aether Vial
3. Lackey
4. Nacatl
5. any other 1 drop creature...
6. Mutavault (because muta is always bigger since its only played in vial tribal decks)
7. if you dont see it early, you would just prefer not to see it at all, unless you just need to pitch something to force.
8. Dark Confidant is superior IMO.
Even though conclave does tap for blue, its still inferior to factory. early game (t1-t2 and sometimes t3) its kinda like being chanted. It does fly but factory can buff itself. Picture yourself staring down a 3/3 nacatl under a standstill, would you rather have a 2/1 flyer or a 3/3 factory? A conclave will not win that race... but a factory can create a suto-standstill in itself.
Now for ruins. Ruins is a good tech card that Ive actualy tested quite a bit, but decided against for a few reasons.
1. taps for colorless... boo!
2. You only play 1... which means you wont see it that often... Including those games where it could have been usefull.
3. Its very mana hungrey. More often than not, you wont have the extra mana to be doing tricks with Ruins. So it then becomes just a regular land that taps for colorless.
4. its legendary... now this may seem irrelevant but, other people do think the same way as you, especialy people playing thopters. Which in turn gives them a 5th wasteland VS you. Although its a very uncommon play... it is still a very real play, which I have been on the sh*t end on of multiple times.
All and all, I would say that Academy Ruins isnt the worst card for the deck, and its deffenatly a card that is a viable option. But do consider these factors when making your final decision.
I have mixed feelings about torpor orb. I wont be adding it till its proven itself. E.tutor would def make is slightly more viable, but if you add E.tutor there needs to be a tool box for it. Needle, Crypt, artifact lands, and a couple other odd and ends. E.tutor also has great synergy with counterbalance. When your opponent plays a KotR, you can tutor up Ensnaring Bridge or something to counter it.
Anyway... these are just my thoughts, Im sure others will have mixed feeling about them. When it boils down to it, it just really depends on your playstyle, meta, and preferences. Good luck!
Some outside thoughts on Torpor Orb, Trickbind, and other 'Naught possibilities. Bear in mind I'm working on assembling Stiflenaught, but have never played it before, so take these with a grain of salt:
-Since the metagame is shifting so heavily to a world of Mental Missteps, Stifle seems more vulnerable than Trickbind. Getting two for one'd is no fun when your stifle gets countered. A deck favoring Trickbind more heavily can be backbreaking, when you got to cast your Dreadnought and the opponent looks at the Misstep in his hand, he could counter the Dreadnought....or he could counter the Stifle and 2 for 1 you. To his dismay, he lets the Dreadnought resolve only for you to Trickbind it instead. And there's no countering Trickbind either. However, it takes away or lessens the T1 stifle-a-fetch play, which, no doubt, is an amazing one.
-As the meta shifts towards more and more Mental Misstepping, it will begin to adapt by more players starting to play more two drops. Spell Snare may end up even more important than it is now.
-I'm currently working on a Stiflenaught varient of my own, incorporating Torpor Orb, but only as a one of. I've chosen a Uwb shell, allowing me to run Enlightnened Tutor to feed Counterbalance, find the singleton Torpor Orb if necessary, fetch Dreadnought, or any other various toolbox card. Since the counterbalance plan is already in the deck, black seemed to be a good choice to include Dark Confidant for. Dark Confidant as a card advantage engine seems better than Standstill, allowing a deck to drop the Mishra's Factories for more colored mana sources, and ditching the problem of topdecking Standstill at inopportune moments. The addition of black and white also allows the inclusion of Vindicate, coupled with Stifle, Trickbind, and Wasteland to subdue an opponent's mana production.
Mind you, this is a very, very rough draft, minus a sideboard at the current time, but I think the concept is solid. There is a Painterstone combo shoehorned in that could be dropped into the 'board, but it grants just that much more flexibility to Enlightened Tutor, when you have one piece, this deck is built to find the other. I've also considered dropping some of the duals into basics to reduce Wasteland vulnerability, but I'm still not sure how to shape up the manabase until I finish building the deck.
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to be honest i havent played in awhile nor tested against the whole mental misstep craze. But to me, if we are running it, and counterbalance, and force of will, and if you are running red, you get pyroblast and/or spell pierce game 2. The vulnerability of stifle to MM doesn't seem too great. Not to mention that the 2 for 1 was already an issue against any deck w/ daze/FoW before (which is quite a few... and not counting any black deck or white that jst removes it the following turn...). If you show you have open mana to trickbind, it was already a threat and ppl are still more likely to go for the nought and not take the chance. I dont think that we should slow the deck down and cut arguably cheaper more powerful for the costs to support 1 card in the format. And if MM is being played in an off color deck running nothing more than 4 MM, are you really that afraid of it? odds of u not having an answer is so slim.
This is mostly speculation, but if others out there test differently let me know. It just seems that MM is making ppl go crazy yet to me it doesnt seem all that back-breaking. Harder against the decks that really need that first turn, belcher/storm/vial/nacatl/etc.... Against a control deck like dreadstill, at least those still playin factories and standstill, going longer is a + and more often than not im not going for the t2 dreadnought stifle unless against a deck like fish/goblins/landstill w/ some kind of counter back up.
What do you guys think about the single Dreadnought and trinket mage?
I was on the fence and have changed to a single dreadnought because multiple games I would top deck a useless dreadnought midgame or i'd be stuck holding a 2nd dreadnought when i needed a blue card for force, etc.
I dont think dreadnought is a tutorable win - con, as then you have an issue if you fail onthe first/only try. Stifle/counters are even worse as u cant find your singleton.
And you lose the oops i win factor w/ T2 Nought which against some decks is the absolute best way to win.
@Asian, i havent playtested yet, but to me it is an easy swap Daze <--> MM, playtest adn see if its worth it. I think not missing land-drops is the only reason it may be better ... but you lose flexibility in being able to counter everything.... but thats why spell pierce in the side is awesome if MM isnt good enough. Also, you may have to consider ur CMC's w/ CB, as you lose the 2-drop w/ daze.
I wonder if w/ dreadstill MM is worth it or not, because we arent a tempo deck, more control, and flexibility is king for control. CB/EE/Stifle/Daze/FoW , all kind of general answer to everything... To me your answers start to get narrow, for the only benefit of a turn 1 answer to annoying stuff... not usually game breaking, (maybe excluding vial....) but spell snare + MM jst begs to have the one you dont want at exactly the right time all the time.
hows daze been for you?
Thanks for the list give me a solid base to work on
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modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
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Eater is terrible.
lets not forget that, people can destroy the orb in responce to playing the eater and then his ability will trigger. Way to kill yourself with your own creature.
Dreadnaught is cheaper,bigger,better.
Those deck lists discussed in the new card section will never happen.
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My thoughts,
1 Stifle is an amazing card, getting to run it is a huge perk
2 TO can't be tutored for with Trinket Mage and the second TO is a dead draw where as any Stifle/Trickbind is awesome simply because people run fetch lands alone
3 Stifle is instant speed, Trickbind is instant speed with split second whereas TO isn't
I feel that the advantage of running Stifle and Trickbind comes with their instant speed and ability to interact with your opponents deck. 6 Stifle effects plus the wastelock really can close a game by itself or keep your opponent off critical mana sources.
"It was probably a lousy spell in the first place."
—Ertai, wizard adept
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JV, how are you making MM fit? Slots are so tight, and fitting in 4 more (is it a 1cc or 0cc for CB?) non 2-cc spells while keeping a CB curve sounds tough.
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Sorry for the assumption, I didn't mean anything by it. Just curious what would you take out for it then?
"It was probably a lousy spell in the first place."
—Ertai, wizard adept
Legacy: UW Miracle, U MUC, UW StoneBlade, U Merfolk, R Burn, & UB Reanimator
EDH: U Azami, Lady of Scrolls & URG Riku of Two Reflections
Casual: UR Dragonstorm, UB Dralnu-Teachings, U NinjaFae, & UR Izzet EDH
It is a 1cc For counterbalance.
2 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
5 Island
3 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Trickbind
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
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The debate goes back and forth from red to black. We have a hard time against swarm aggro so firesprout and clasm seem like natural choices. I have tested sweepers from black to much displeasure. Ideally sweepers can really shore up the goblin matchup but when your sweepers require BB (such as black sun or infest) your opponent now just has to keep you off BB game 3.
Il try to Pros and Cons list, though i'm sure some will disagree with my selections.
Red PROS
-Lavamancer turn one eats aggro and merfolk, combined with maindeck collar, he kills almost everything.
-Sweepers are amazing vs zoo,merfolk and goblins.
-Lightning bolt/REB are great spot removal in the above matchups.
Red CONS
-Not alot of cards ran maindeck,with so many good colors to splash I often feel we don't get the milage out of red.
-Removal is limited, You can't really kill Gofy,tombstalker, or other fattys.
-The reach that spells like Lightning bolt provide is often moot when our offensive is a 12/12.
Black PROS
-Dark Confidant is amazing. Theres nothing like him for a control deck. An unforseen bonus is that your opponent sometimes think they can kill you with him so they are apprehensive to swing, at which point you can get rid of him at your leisure and probably kill something else.
-Plague is great vs goblins, and can be used vs merfolk.
-Executioner's capsule maindeck offers spot removal that can be tutored for.
-Hand destruction maindeck can make combo matchups 80/20
-Access to spot removal,Go for the throat,smother,edict,snuff out.
-Has some sweepers, infest,zenith,damnation
Black Cons
-Many cards requires BB, not good when we already want UU for counterbalance.
-Many cards cause life loss, as a control deck this can make aggro matchups harder
-Sweepers are much more conditional and are usually more expensive.
On llawan, her cost and limited use make her very unattractive. Fish pack counterspells like daze and force, the games against fish seldom last more than 5 turns. She becomes a really all in plan, also fish use vial which gets around llawan so your all in plan may be all for not. I have tested her and would never use her. She works against 1 deck and she can be really subpar. You don't need to hardlock the game to win. A well timed pyroclasm can be all you need.
Wouldn't playing this card nullify any of the effectiveness that Trinket Mage has to the deck?
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Indeed those builds would probably use enlightened tutor. This way you would be able to tutor for nought or orb and assemble him.
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Dark Confidant
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Trinket Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
Artifact/Enchantment: 6
3x Sensei's Diving Top
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Counterbalance
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
2x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
Land: 22
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Wasteland
1x Riptide Labritory
3x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
Heres the sideboard... its a sideboard, lol
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Basilisk Collar
1x Meekstone
1x Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Perish
3x Firespout
1x Vendilion Clique
so what are your guys thoughts?
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Punishing Depths :symg::symu::symr:
Faithless Dredge :symb::symu::symr::symw::symg:
Also, in my experience's, 8 land that tap for colorless is ROUGH... especialy when you consider that Counterbalance takes two blue.
Its also very, very tempting to keep a good looking hand with a Mishra's Factory and a Sensei's Divining Top, because of course you'll top into a blue, right? Well more often than I care for it to happen, you top into a waste, factory, or ruins. which puts you at a severe temop loss. Basicly you just time warped your opponent.
Also, another thing I've noticed... is that a keepable hand usualy consists of top, a blue land, and some other junk. Top is by far the single most valuable card to this deck IMHO. Although its not all sunshine and rainbows to 2 tops in your opening hand, its better than seeing 0. I suggest running 3. Although others might disagree with this, 3 is my personal preferance.
1 last thing.
The defining factor between control builds with dreadnought and other control builds is its ability to say "turn 2 dreadnought" pretty often (putting freakish pressure on every other deck to find an answer in 2 turns or die). I would suggest 4x noughts. 3x only if you decide to add the E.Tutors.
P.S.
Since your running red, maindeck Grim Lavamancer's can be randomly amazing. Also, if you resolve it T1 vs merfolk... its basicly an auto-win. Even with a vial online.
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Faithless Dredge :symb::symu::symr::symw::symg:
And again, you are correct about factory supporting standstill... which is one of the reasons I cut standstill all together. Standstill was the most amazing card that blows in the meta we play in right now; of course the meta will soon be changing due to MM... Now, dont get me wrong, I love standstill. Its great VS combo, midrange, and some other control variants, and it was a very difficult choice to drop them. But here are some of the resons I decided to drop it.
1. I get to cut factory.
2. Aether Vial
3. Lackey
4. Nacatl
5. any other 1 drop creature...
6. Mutavault (because muta is always bigger since its only played in vial tribal decks)
7. if you dont see it early, you would just prefer not to see it at all, unless you just need to pitch something to force.
8. Dark Confidant is superior IMO.
Even though conclave does tap for blue, its still inferior to factory. early game (t1-t2 and sometimes t3) its kinda like being chanted. It does fly but factory can buff itself. Picture yourself staring down a 3/3 nacatl under a standstill, would you rather have a 2/1 flyer or a 3/3 factory? A conclave will not win that race... but a factory can create a suto-standstill in itself.
Now for ruins. Ruins is a good tech card that Ive actualy tested quite a bit, but decided against for a few reasons.
1. taps for colorless... boo!
2. You only play 1... which means you wont see it that often... Including those games where it could have been usefull.
3. Its very mana hungrey. More often than not, you wont have the extra mana to be doing tricks with Ruins. So it then becomes just a regular land that taps for colorless.
4. its legendary... now this may seem irrelevant but, other people do think the same way as you, especialy people playing thopters. Which in turn gives them a 5th wasteland VS you. Although its a very uncommon play... it is still a very real play, which I have been on the sh*t end on of multiple times.
All and all, I would say that Academy Ruins isnt the worst card for the deck, and its deffenatly a card that is a viable option. But do consider these factors when making your final decision.
I have mixed feelings about torpor orb. I wont be adding it till its proven itself. E.tutor would def make is slightly more viable, but if you add E.tutor there needs to be a tool box for it. Needle, Crypt, artifact lands, and a couple other odd and ends. E.tutor also has great synergy with counterbalance. When your opponent plays a KotR, you can tutor up Ensnaring Bridge or something to counter it.
Anyway... these are just my thoughts, Im sure others will have mixed feeling about them. When it boils down to it, it just really depends on your playstyle, meta, and preferences. Good luck!
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-Since the metagame is shifting so heavily to a world of Mental Missteps, Stifle seems more vulnerable than Trickbind. Getting two for one'd is no fun when your stifle gets countered. A deck favoring Trickbind more heavily can be backbreaking, when you got to cast your Dreadnought and the opponent looks at the Misstep in his hand, he could counter the Dreadnought....or he could counter the Stifle and 2 for 1 you. To his dismay, he lets the Dreadnought resolve only for you to Trickbind it instead. And there's no countering Trickbind either. However, it takes away or lessens the T1 stifle-a-fetch play, which, no doubt, is an amazing one.
-As the meta shifts towards more and more Mental Misstepping, it will begin to adapt by more players starting to play more two drops. Spell Snare may end up even more important than it is now.
-I'm currently working on a Stiflenaught varient of my own, incorporating Torpor Orb, but only as a one of. I've chosen a Uwb shell, allowing me to run Enlightnened Tutor to feed Counterbalance, find the singleton Torpor Orb if necessary, fetch Dreadnought, or any other various toolbox card. Since the counterbalance plan is already in the deck, black seemed to be a good choice to include Dark Confidant for. Dark Confidant as a card advantage engine seems better than Standstill, allowing a deck to drop the Mishra's Factories for more colored mana sources, and ditching the problem of topdecking Standstill at inopportune moments. The addition of black and white also allows the inclusion of Vindicate, coupled with Stifle, Trickbind, and Wasteland to subdue an opponent's mana production.
2x Stifle
2x Trickbind
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Dark Confidant
4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
3x Vindicate
4x Brainstorm
1x Torpor Orb
1x Painter's Servant
1x Grindstone
1x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Flooded Strand
1x Marsh Flats
3x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
2x Scrubland
4x Wasteland
Mind you, this is a very, very rough draft, minus a sideboard at the current time, but I think the concept is solid. There is a Painterstone combo shoehorned in that could be dropped into the 'board, but it grants just that much more flexibility to Enlightened Tutor, when you have one piece, this deck is built to find the other. I've also considered dropping some of the duals into basics to reduce Wasteland vulnerability, but I'm still not sure how to shape up the manabase until I finish building the deck.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
This is mostly speculation, but if others out there test differently let me know. It just seems that MM is making ppl go crazy yet to me it doesnt seem all that back-breaking. Harder against the decks that really need that first turn, belcher/storm/vial/nacatl/etc.... Against a control deck like dreadstill, at least those still playin factories and standstill, going longer is a + and more often than not im not going for the t2 dreadnought stifle unless against a deck like fish/goblins/landstill w/ some kind of counter back up.
UBRWDDFTWBRU
UBRWGTESGWRBU
I was on the fence and have changed to a single dreadnought because multiple games I would top deck a useless dreadnought midgame or i'd be stuck holding a 2nd dreadnought when i needed a blue card for force, etc.
At the moment i've cut red and am at UBw
Also: is Legionnaire worth thinking about as a 2 or 3 of?
Legacy Decks:
Legendary Maverick GW
And you lose the oops i win factor w/ T2 Nought which against some decks is the absolute best way to win.
@Asian, i havent playtested yet, but to me it is an easy swap Daze <--> MM, playtest adn see if its worth it. I think not missing land-drops is the only reason it may be better ... but you lose flexibility in being able to counter everything.... but thats why spell pierce in the side is awesome if MM isnt good enough. Also, you may have to consider ur CMC's w/ CB, as you lose the 2-drop w/ daze.
I wonder if w/ dreadstill MM is worth it or not, because we arent a tempo deck, more control, and flexibility is king for control. CB/EE/Stifle/Daze/FoW , all kind of general answer to everything... To me your answers start to get narrow, for the only benefit of a turn 1 answer to annoying stuff... not usually game breaking, (maybe excluding vial....) but spell snare + MM jst begs to have the one you dont want at exactly the right time all the time.
UBRWDDFTWBRU
UBRWGTESGWRBU