Table of Contents
I. Introduction
II. Decklists
III. Card Choices
Synergies
IV. Matchups
Play tips
Enemies of Stax
Sideboarding
V. Forward Looking Statements
I. Introduction
How does the Wizards R&D team let you know they might have made a mistake?
Right from the get-go, these guys knew that this card would be straight up nasty. In fact, they were prepared to restrict it in Vintage before anyone would have a chance to take 4 of them and make them look like fools. Sure, you can’t win the game with one card, but you can end it for the other guy. This card had the potential to ruin the format that contains the strongest cards ever printed.
Indeed, a year after its release, Wizards smacked Trinisphere with the restriction stamp.
When people think of disruption, they think of cards like Duress, Hymn to Tourach, and Force of Will. But really, there is no card out there that is more feared than Trinsiphere. This is because for 3 mana, you change the rules of the game.
Aaron Forsythe of Wizards R&D on Trinisphere, “While it does serve a role of keeping combo decks in check, it also randomly destroys people on turn one, with little recourse other than Force of Will. And those games end up labeled with that heinous word—unfun. Not just “I lost” unfun, but “Why did I even come here to play?” unfun. The power level of the card is no jokes either, which is a big reason why I don't feel bad about its restriction.”
By introducing you to Trinisphere, maybe it sounds like I’m asking you to be a massive jerk. Welcome to the world of competitive magic. It is important to realize just how fast and cutthroat of a format Legacy is. There are decks out there that want no part of interacting with you. They will beat you on turn 1, 2 or 3. There are other decks that will smash you in the face with unfairly efficient creatures. Then there are decks that will not “cast” creatures, but rather place them in to play, while countering your every move. Still, others will just gather unfair levels of card advantage and drag you down over time. There are no guaranteed wins in legacy.
Knowing what these other decks can do, you are going to want to have Trinisphere by your side. The best turn 1 in legacy might very well be Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb, Trinsiphere. But we’ll talk about that in a bit.
Now, if you’re still reading, I bet you want to start using this card from Hell. Well, then, you’ve come to the right place, because the deck that uses Trinsiphere the most effectively is Armageddon Stax.
The aim of Armageddon Stax is to deal with the threats you expect to see, before you even see them. In fact, you won’t have to see all that much from your opponent if you play your cards right. You might not even have to do anything to them. You just have to wait for those lovely words, “I concede.”
While Trinsiphere exemplifies the concept of dealing with things ahead of time beautifully, another key card at your disposal is Chalice of the Void. In most cases when you place Chalice at “1” you will see some frustration on your opponent’s face. These two cards form the most potent preemptive strike in legacy. For those that enjoy a good political reference, Stax is the Bush Doctrine of Magic decks. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, ask Sarah Palin.
This deck is so good at locking down your opponent and crushing their spirit, you could almost get away with running no win conditions. However, the bare minimum should be Magus of the Tabernacle and Mishra’s Factory. Magus not only serves a crucial defensive function, but also gets the job done by itself on the offensive end. This is the absolute best creature we can use in this deck. No one can dispute the use of Magus, but there is some debate on whether Magus should be paired with another creature. The most popular creatures to go alongside Magus have traditionally been Exalted Angel, and then Baneslayer Angel.
II. Decklists
Let’s start with a sample decklist. Please direct me to some decklists with information including the name of the event, the number of players and where that player ultimately placed, and I'll add it here.
Alex Kenny
2010 SCG 5K Legacy Open – Seattle
9-16th Place
This version runs only Magus and Mishra's Factory as the win conditions. I like the mana base of this version a lot. The rule of thumb for us stat nerds is 3 Flagstones of Trokair and 6 Plains. A 1:1 ratio is not ideal.
This version runs the most crucial sideboard card for the current metagame: Choke. I believe the decks that don't run Choke in the board are putting themselves at a huge disadvantage.
III. Card Choices
Main Deck
Trinisphere: It can't be overstated enough just how powerful this card is. You can set your opponent back by an incalculable number of turns at the drop of a hat. Some players will see you play this and literally take their hand, put it back on top of their deck, and start cycling through their sideboard. This card works great with Armageddon in locking your opponent out of playing cards, and it makes your opponent struggle to play countermagic.
Chalice of the Void: This is another one of the most powerful cards out there. If you don't have Trinisphere, it's often your next best first turn play. You have to make a judgment call about taking it out for game 2, since some players use a wider mana curve, and Supression Fields can also be very devastating in the right matchup. Check the matchups section for more details on how to sideboard with this deck.
Ghostly Prison: People call Armageddon Stax a prison style deck. Sometimes this is more important to get into play than Trinisphere. One such situation is when your opponent gets Aether Vial out early. This is better than Moat for various reasons, the biggest being the casting cost, and another being the prevalence of the card Tombstalker. Finally, the "WW" can be a problem for this deck to reach consistently in a timely manner.
Armageddon: Along with Trinisphere, this is also one of the most disruptive spells in the history of magic, and is definitely one of the best white cards ever. Cast Armageddon, then drop a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale into play and you can destroy all of your opponents creatures. Likewise, if you've got Magus of the Tabernacle out, you accomplish the same thing. Most people run 4 Armageddons, or split them with Ravages of War. Personally, I run 4 Armageddon and 1 Ravages of War, with the thinking that these are faster than Smokestack and usually more ideal to draw. In my opinion it is preferable to draw 2 Geddons than to draw none. Why? Well this card wins the game when you cast it. Also, your opponent will be looking to Duress, Thoughtseize, Force of Will or Daze your Armageddons any chance they get.
Smokestack: This card is important as a finisher. A lot of people look at this deck and think it needs a huge finishing creature, but with Smokestack you create a hard lock. This is better than having extra creatures because your opponent won't need to see it if you lock them out of the game completely destroying every last one of their permanents. More often than not, you should leave Smokestack at 1. There are times when you will need to go for it and put it at 2. Use your judgment. In my opinion, you should run 3 of these, rather than 4. The reason is that this is often the last card that you play from your hand.
Crucible of Worlds: This card works very well with Smokestack, Armageddon, and basically all of your lands, particularly Wasteland and Horizon Canopy. Some people will give up as soon as you get Wasteland and Crucible rolling. Finally, it has a nice synergy with Mox Diamond. Check the synergies section for a nice quick reminder of how all these cards interact.
Mox Diamond: Look, speed wins in legacy. This deck gets the lock down faster than aggro decks get their attack on. This card is a huge reason why. Don't even get me started on how good Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors are. Throw Mox Diamond into the mix, and this deck wastes little time getting up to 3. And you know what costs 3.
Oblivion Ring: This is a support card, and it's the only card I think could possibly be improved upon in the main deck. Since all the cards work so well together, there isn't a lot of room for improvement. The oblivion ring slot is up for debate. Additionally, the extra creature slot is up for debate.
Note: On the next edit I'll discuss the lands in detail. I think the mana base of this deck is unique and one of the most important things to get right as a deck builder, and understand fully to play this deck correctly.
Synergies:
(Some more obvious than others)
Armageddon + Magus of the Tabernacle or Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (Destroys all their lands AND creatures. Make sure you play Armageddon first, then Tabernacle)
Smokestack + Armageddon (forces opponents permanent sacrifice)
Armageddon or Smokestack + Flagstones of Trokair
Armageddon + Mox Diamond
Armageddon or Smokestack Crucible of Worlds (replay lands)
Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland (Known as a Wastelock)
Crucible of Worlds + Horizon Canopy
Crucible of Worlds + Mox Diamond (Bring that land you pitched back into play)
Ghostly Prison + Magus/Tabernacle/Armageddon/Trinisphere/Smokestack (They just all work well together)
Flagstones of Trokair + Savannah
Note: Flagstones of Trokair does not make you sacrifice City of Traitors when you sacrifice it to Smokestack and search out a land
For decks that play it: Worldqueller + Mishra’s Factory + Crucible of Worlds (Name creature at upkeep)
IV. Matchups
The most important deck to beat right now is Merfolk. These decks are relatively inexpensive to build and thus show up in huge numbers to tournaments.
Game 1
If you are on the play, and you have the opportunity to, you throw down Trinisphere. It will be highly unlikely you’ll lose that game if it resolves through force of will. Your next best bet is Chalice of the Void for 1. It is nice that some players are using less than 4 Force of Wills in the main.
On the draw, you have to deal with Daze. Don’t play around Spell Pierce. These decks tend to play anywhere from 0 to 3 copies of these, and usually none in the main now that Mental Misstep is around. So if you get 3 mana on turn 1, and you have a choice, play Chalice of the Void for 1. Just don’t tap out. If you have a choice of playing a plains and tapping out, or playing ancient tomb, taking 2 damage and floating 1 mana, you play the ancient tomb. No questions asked.
Important: If your opponent plays aether vial, whether it be goblins or merfolk, you are going to want to play ghostly prison before trinisphere.
Sideboarding:
In: +3 Choke, +4 Suppression Fields, +1 Ensnaring Bridge
Out: -4 Chalice of the Void, -1 Armageddon, -2 World Queller, -1 Oblivion Ring,
It is important to keep in mind that those 3 spell pierces and extra force of will are coming in against you, and those mental missteps are coming out. This deck is disruptive and it has a clock. Ensnaring Bridge is a nice extra stall piece, and the combination of Choke and Suppression fields will devastate them. The emphasis is the establishing the early game lock, so some finishers from the main deck are cut.
"Set chalice at 1 on the play and it's almost a guaranteed win. Half of zoo's deck is one cost and turning off, well....everything but Qasali Pridemage seems pretty good. Other than that, wasteland is also very good against them. It cuts Wild Nacati down to size and hits almost every land in their deck. This matchup is pretty nice as it is one of the few where you don't have to worry about your lock pieces getting discarded or countered. I say all of this, but it is not at all a walk in the park. If you don't have a very fast start, they will do what zoo does best and kill you on turn 3 or 4 if you don't slow them down at all. Watch out for those Pridemages and the newer favorite, Gaddock Teeg is also pretty good against us. Board in Suppression Field, Ensnaring Bridge, and depending on how heavy their burn is, Sphere of Law or Leyline of Sanctity."
Another important point to consider is to try not to walk right into a big Price of Progress. Don't overplay nonbasic lands from your hand. You can and should just hold them if you have access to 4-5 mana. They can hit you for 10+ damage with all these nonbasics. Karakas is a nice weapon against Gaddock Teeg. This creature will hamper your ability to play Armageddon and Smokestack.
There's nothing wrong with Chalice in this matchup, but the reasoning behind putting in Supression Field is how it works wonders against fetch lands. Sphere of Law comes in to deal with all the burn. Expect the extra Teeg, Krosan Grip and Price of Progress to come in.
V. Forward Looking Statements
This post is a work in progress. I would like to discuss many of the main deck and sideboard cards at length in the Card Choices section, as well as have the most comprehensive matchup summaries out of all of the decks on MTG Salvation. I'm looking for assistance on the matchups against all of the Tier 1 and otherwise popular Legacy decks. This includes: Zoo, UW Standstill, BUG Standstill, Team America, Junk, Rock, Death and Taxes, High Tide, Mono Blue Control, Bant, Dredge, Hive Mind, and Storm combo decks.
Feel free to add some comments, or write up a matchup guide for any of those decks I mentioned. I will be sure to quote you in my next edit.
Finally, I'd like to just say thank you to everyone who has contributed so far. It's one of the many decks out there that can win any given tournament. What is important is to continue to learn as much as you can about this deck so you can play it optimally. Winning in legacy is more about playing well than lucking into good matchups. A lot of matchups are even. Play the right way, learn the ins and outs of this deck, and you'll do well. If more people were playing this deck it would be in tons of top 8s. Of course, what people use has a lot to do with how much it costs to build a deck, and what is in style. Stax is not currently in style, which in my opinion makes it a great choice to bring to a tournament and surprise the hell out of people.
Your list is missing Plains. I'm assuming 5 from the land count.
The big creature slot continues to be debated. I've really liked BSA so far, but I understand there are compelling reasons to go with World Queller, Wurmcoil Engine, etc. With the prevalence of blue control decks and efficient creature removal right now, I'd also consider Elspeth, Knight Errant, which is a fantastic finisher, and synergizes very well with smokestack and potentially Humility. Right now I'm running a 3/2/2 split of Magus, BSA, Elspeth, and it's working out decently.
This can be a semi-reasonably-priced deck or potentially the most expensive deck in the format, including Ravages, Tabernacle, and potentially Moat. Are the excessively expensive pieces worth the extra cost, and if so which are the most important ones to acquire/run? Ravages seems particularly questionable, as Iv'e found myself taking out 'geddon effects often, and rarely want to play them unless I have both crucible and prison, or magus and a mox diamond already in play. I've almost never wished for more than 3/4. Also, how effective is the singleton Tabernacle if we have no way to fetch it?
Since you're splashing green for Choke, have you considered Beast Within ? I tried it out this week and was very successful with it, except in one situation where I lacked the colored mana for it. It's an extra out to problem attackers, Jace, opposing crucibles, and occasionally can even hit a pernicious deed that hasn't gone off, or an opponent's pesky land while under a tabernacle/prison effect. Most often though, I used it on my own extra lands, particularly Flagstones, to make a surprise blocker or extra creature to swing for the win.
Finally, why isn't this part of the comprehensive and popular White Stax thread, it seems odd to start a new thread from scratch for an already established deck that has an existing thread.
Well I've been playing stax for around 3+ years now so I can give you some tips on playing some of the decks in the format, as well as some other stuff. For one, I use Wurmcoil engine as my win condition. Some people don't like it because of the scary mana cost of 6. however, I started using him a couple of months ago and haven't looked back. When I used Baneslayer angel getting double white mana was a lot harder than you would think. I lost many games due to not hitting a second white source in time. Wurmcoil fixes this problem. He is also very good with stax itself, giving 2 more permanents if he is ever chosen as the sacrifice, not to mention the lifelink giving back some much needed life lost to repeated ancient tomb usage.
As far as the match-ups go, some of these are pretty self explanatory, but ill say it anyway.
Zoo: set chalice at 1 on the play and it's almost a guaranteed win. Half of zoo's deck is one cost and turning off, well....everything but Qasali Pridemage seems pretty good. Other than that, wasteland is also very good against them. It cuts Wild Nacatl down to size and hits almost ever land in their deck. This matchup is pretty nice as it is one of the few where you don't have to worry about your lock pieces getting discarded or countered. I say all of this, but it is not at all a walk in the park. If you don't have a very fast start, they will do what zoo does best and kill you on turn 3 or 4 if you don't slow them down at all. Watch out for those Pridemages and the newer favorite, Gaddock Teeg is also pretty good against us. Board in Suppression Field, Ensnaring Bridge, and depending on how heavy their burn is, Sphere of law or leyline of sanctity.
Dredge: My brother has played dredge for as long as I've played Stax and we play test against each other all the time. I can confidently say that Dredge is almost an auto win for Stax. Chalice for 1 on the play turns off almost ALL of their discard outlets, wasteland hits every land in their deck, Trinisphere stops activation of dread return unless they have the mana to pay for it, and it is almost impossible for them to win through a ghostly prison. I don't even have any graveyard hate in my board because its such a good matchup for me. The only cards I really bring in are Ratchet bombs/ Powder kegs.
Storm: Whether it's High Tide or TES your game plan against combo is pretty much the same. Against both chalice at one is going to be your 2nd strongest play (first being a Trinisphere). Against High Tide against this shuts down their namesake card and mana ramp source, as well as their cantrips. This is really important, and I cannot stress this enough. Combo decks are slowed to a crawl when they cannot sculpt their hands. Turn off their Ponders, Brainstorms, and Preordains and they are relying on the topdeck, which when on the clock is not good for them. Against TES the chalice shuts down their cantrips, but it also does so much more. Duress, Dark Ritual, Pyretic Ritual , and Thoughtseize all fall to its might. As for board options, there are 2 that I find to be the best. The first is Ethersworn Canonist. This little girl has two things going for her, She is awesome against stopping their combo AND she is a clock. What good is putting down a lock piece if you give them all the time in the world to play around it? You have to lock them down AND put them on a clock and she does both in one card. The other good choice is Rule of Law. The reason I say this is that for most Combo decks, the favorite anti-hate card of choice is either Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild. Both of these are nice for the combo player as it scoops up Trinispheres, Loadstone Golems, Chalices, and Canonists. Rule of Law, however, is immune to this and that makes it a great anti-anti-hate...card:smileup:.
For closing comments I just want to say to anyone thinking about playing Stax, It is an amazingly fun deck to play. Slowing the game down to a crawl may not sound fun to you, but that's probably because you were on the receiving end. It's a war of attrition that you came prepared for, and this may sound evil, but my favorite moments playing magic are still the looks on my opponents faces when I drop that first turn Trinisphere.
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
Your list is missing Plains. I'm assuming 5 from the land count.
The big creature slot continues to be debated. I've really liked BSA so far, but I understand there are compelling reasons to go with World Queller, Wurmcoil Engine, etc. With the prevalence of blue control decks and efficient creature removal right now, I'd also consider Elspeth, Knight Errant, which is a fantastic finisher, and synergizes very well with smokestack and potentially Humility. Right now I'm running a 3/2/2 split of Magus, BSA, Elspeth, and it's working out decently.
This can be a semi-reasonably-priced deck or potentially the most expensive deck in the format, including Ravages, Tabernacle, and potentially Moat. Are the excessively expensive pieces worth the extra cost, and if so which are the most important ones to acquire/run? Ravages seems particularly questionable, as Iv'e found myself taking out 'geddon effects often, and rarely want to play them unless I have both crucible and prison, or magus and a mox diamond already in play. I've almost never wished for more than 3/4. Also, how effective is the singleton Tabernacle if we have no way to fetch it?
Since you're splashing green for Choke, have you considered Beast Within ? I tried it out this week and was very successful with it, except in one situation where I lacked the colored mana for it. It's an extra out to problem attackers, Jace, opposing crucibles, and occasionally can even hit a pernicious deed that hasn't gone off, or an opponent's pesky land while under a tabernacle/prison effect. Most often though, I used it on my own extra lands, particularly Flagstones, to make a surprise blocker or extra creature to swing for the win.
Finally, why isn't this part of the comprehensive and popular White Stax thread, it seems odd to start a new thread from scratch for an already established deck that has an existing thread.
You are observant. They are plains.
Well, this might seem odd to you to start a new thread, but I explained my dissatisfaction with the other Stax thread to the moderator, and we thought it would be better if someone else made a new one. Check the forward looking statements. The opening post in the White Stax thread is outdated and doesn't talk about the current matchups I think are the most important. I want this to be a group project for us stax players, where we can debate card choice (Elspeth, Beast Within, Ravages, Tabernacle, World Queller, Wurmcoil) and share sideboarding strategies as well as play strategies against the decks that matter. Give me a decklist and I'll post it.
As for the deck I'm playing, I have never felt the need to cut the Geddon effects. They're faster than Smokestack, and I play 26 lands. If you post a matchup guide just do me a favor and post your decklist and sideboard along with it.
I hate playing this deck as it is so just so incredibly inconsistent, and because there is no card filtering or card draw to speak of, you are tied to this inconsistency.
So I don't own any City of Traitors, but I would really like to give this deck a try. How would you think will Crystal Vein do in this deck as a substitute? I know it's not as good as City of Traitors, but sometimes it has it's advantages (like not being sacrificed automatically so I can keep using it for 1 mana in the mid- to lategame).
One thing to say: I'm not expecting to see any decks that run high on counters in two weeks. One merfolk deck, everything else people run around here is pretty much focused on its own game.
What I expect:
• Aluren (if I get to drop a Trinisphere, I should have almost won, right?)
• Merfolk
• Zoo
• Enchantress
• Dredge
...and some other stuff, but those mentioned above are the most important ones. What are your suggestions: Could Armageddon Stax compete in this meta?
Thanks for your input. I plan to write a matchup guide for these decks. There's already one for Merfolk, and another user has talked some about Zoo and Dredge.
Crystal Vein sounds like a good budget option if you don't expect a lot of counters. I'd might recommend sacrificing it to play around daze at times if you expect it and need to get a spell in play a turn early.
I have played this deck in the past. I agree that it is inconsistent. But its quite fun to play it once in a while at a tournament.
But i believe the meta now wont allow stax to have a chance at winning much.
but i can be wrong.
Honestly I think tournament results are largely the result of which decks are getting the most play. Merfolks are represented the most and they make the most top 8s. That matchup is probably 50/50. And if you check the deck page for merfolks they concede "Choke, should it randomly be included in your opponents sideboard, is a big problem" No one can confidently say there's a best deck in the format, and a few of the decks in the tier 1 section are extremely vulnerable to this matchup.
Secondly, if someone like Kai Budde used this deck he would probably top 8. That's just how it works. Good players get results. Read a tournament report and you'll see how many errors players typically make. Metagame is a nice excuse for losing, but play your cards right and you can win with this deck. There's no lack of power in these cards.
Third, this deck in my view isn't all that inconsistent. Sure, it's not as consistant as decks that run brainstorms and fetches, but it does reuse cards from the graveyard and it does shut down other decks to buy more than enough time to draw things. I tend to see my opponents deck doesn't look all that consistent after they get done playing it against stax. Something I'd like to talk about in this deck primer is strategic mulliganing. You'll need to do it with this deck.
I do love stax as it is one of my favorite decks and one of the most fun for me to play. I will say that the deck can be extremely powerful as I feel it runs one of the most powerful card in magic and that is trinisphere. That card just ends games, but I think since we run a lot of redundancy we rely to much on top decks (as I think all chalice base decks do) and if we don't draw the right cards we just lose so I do think the deck is pretty inconsistent. That is my personal view on it and because when the deck works it is so powerful that I always run this style of deck.
Hey guys I was thinking about taking my stax deck to my local tournament, but I was thinking about splashing red just for something different. I was wondering If you guys could think of any sideboard tech this would open for me. I am running Goblin Welders and Ajani Vengeant main-board. I know that this makes Mental Misstep actually do something against my deck, but this is mostly just for fun. Welder is amazing against discard and counterspells. I think I have the maindeck set up pretty well, but I have no Idea what a red splash gets me for the sideboard.
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
I run Angel Stax after a list I found on starcitygames a few years ago and it is horribly outdated, im in the process of simply copying that list with Choke in it. One question though, I own 2 Moats, and with it´s 2ww casting cost, can it safely replace two Ghostly Prisons? Has anyone tested?
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Urza thought it a crusade. Xantcha knew it was a robbery...
I run Angel Stax after a list I found on starcitygames a few years ago and it is horribly outdated, im in the process of simply copying that list with Choke in it. One question though, I own 2 Moats, and with it´s 2ww casting cost, can it safely replace two Ghostly Prisons? Has anyone tested?
Moat is good, but it's not as fast as Ghostly Prison. Some decks are just so fast that you'll regret not playing the extra two Ghostly Prisons. Goblins is one of those decks. Not only that, but Tombstalker is one of the most common creatures to come across, and Moat will do nothing for that. For these reasons, most sideboards bring in Ensnaring Bridge for extra creature hate.
Ok, forget my last statement, I just bought my playset City of Traitors yesterday and can't wait to give this deck a go next week.
I like the idea of splashing red for Ajani Vengeant. He isn't actually a win condition but can screw your opponent really hard and fits the mana / tempo denial plan we're running pretty well.
What about Lodestone Golem? Why isn't he run in this deck usually? Chalice @ 1 followed by a Golem should be pretty crucial for our opponents.
Also, what's the appropiate number to set up smokestack? I would say the number of permanents you can recur every turn and maybe + 1. So if we only have Crucible, we'll just play Stack @ 1 or 2. If we have Crucible and Elspeth we can set it for 2 or 3. I don't know if this is a bit too risky, since I've never played this deck yet.
I would recommend trying one of these lists out before you change it up. These cards go so well together and leave room for only a few slots to mess around with. Check out the cards explanations section for comments on Smokestack. I usually leave it at 1, with some exceptions.
I'll make a note to talk about all these cards you bring up in my next update. Lodestone Golem comes into affect before Trinisphere, so if something costs U, like Brainstorm, Lodestone makes it cost 1U, then Trinisphere bumps it up to 2U, so it is not as effective as you'd want it to be. Then it makes things like Armageddon and Ghostly Prison cost more. I think we have much better options.
Personally, I wouldn't run Ajani Vengeant. The lifegain is nice, but I think I'd rather run Wurmcoil Engine if I wanted lifegain. I think these effects are a bit redundant, and the current pieces that we'd take out to use him are a bit more efficient at getting the job done. However, by all means try it out. That's what magic is all about.
It depends on what you expect to play against. There are merits to 3 Ghostly Prisons and 4 Ghostly Prisons. In my opinion 4 is ideal, since when it matters it really matters. No one wants to draw Ghostly Prison when it doesn't do anything, but the chances are you won't draw Ghostly Prison for a few turns if you run 3 of them. That's the difference between a win and a loss against Goblins and Zoo.
I realize I did neglect to mention the main reason I wouldn't dive into red, and that's because I like Choke so much in the sideboard. I won't discourage you from trying anything though. You have the right attitude for trying out a new deck. Let me know how it goes.
Ok, so I tried out that Stax deck with the red splash and I did pretty good at the tournament, ending 2-2 and just missing top 8 (winning my last match instead of losing it would have got me there). Before I go into the report though, here is my deck-list.
I walk into the store seeing about 18-20 people so its a good sized crowed there. Most of the regulars are there with a couple people I've never seen before. Round one pairings come up and it takes me a while to find my opponent, It was someone I hadn't seen at the store before. He was an older man, and we sat down and he starts talking about how his sons got him into the game. He was very nice and it was a very fun match.
He wins the die roll and leads on Seat of the Synod, ornithopter, memnite, frogmite, go. Well, I knew he was playing affinity. I drop a Great furnace and then lead with a goblin welder. He picks it up to read it and I make a note of how fun it is to play with. He goes and drops another land into cranial plating but doesn't have enough to equip. I draw, and then wasteland his seat, putting an artifact in his graveyard and turning my welder on. On his turn he tries to equip the plating and swing but I swap it to the graveyard in response. My turn I drop a smokestack into play and again he picks it up to read it. He looked really confused as to how it worked so I explained it to him and then ended my turn. The next couple of turn is him trying to attack me and me welding the creature to the graveyard, eventually pumping my stax to 4 and then welding it to my graveyard before my upkeep. His board was destroyed and I killed him with a Magus. The first game lasted about 25 min.
I board in my 4 revokers and 3 seal of cleansing, taking out my 3 stax, 2 ajanis, and 2 wurmcoil engines. I thought they would be too slow if he landed a quick cranial plating. My opening hand was Goblin welder, mox diamond, great furnace, plains, ancient tomb, magus of the tabernacle after i mulled once. He drops an ancient den and then leads with a springleaf drum, ornithopter, memnite, relic of progenitus. I was not expecting that card. I draw, another goblin welder, and drop my great furnace into my first one. He takes his turn and puts a plating into play but again can't equip. I take a memnite hit and then draw a wasteland, again giving my welder a target. This game ended up being pretty short as I drew all 4 welders and put magus onto the board, eventually welding all of his lands into the graveyard so he couldnt pay for his creatures. Welder is pretty good against affinity.
Round 2 I'm put against countertop and it was not a fun match. Both games were long but consisted of nothing happening. Each game he landed a Jace and anything I played that could deal with it got countered. I was also Pernicious deeded 3 times. Those things hurt like a mother, especially against my artifact lands. Lost to a Jace ulti both games.
Round 3 pairs me up against someone I've played before. He was playing TES last time and so I was feeling pretty confident. He wins the die roll and leads underground sea, Hapless researcher? WTF? I had no idea what was going on. Seeing the Underground Sea, I though TES was still my best guess. I drop a flagstones and pass, nothing to do. He EOT brainstorms and then drops a swamp. I draw, drop a great furnace into goblin welder and pass. He EOT Entombs Iona and draws, and uses Animate Dead. I scoop.
I look at my board and realize I have NOTHING against reanimater. I was not expecting to see it at all. A little scared I draw my hand after not boarding in anything. no lands and I mull down to 5 eventually seeing 3 Trinisphere, ancient tomb, and a plains. I keep for no good reason and land the trini turn 2, and....He has no answer? It slows him down enough for me to topdeck into everything I needed. Eventually he is able to reanimate an Inkwell Leviathan, But he was left with no lands and I had a ghostly Prision and he scoops, knowing there is no coming back.
Game 3 I land a first turn Trinisphere and it resolves. ( He later told me he had the counter but thought he could play around it, and that he would save the counter for something else.) The trinisphere allowed me to resolve anything I wanted for the rest of the game without fear that it would be countered. After turns of me putting down various lock-pieces unanswered, he eventually scoops to an Ajani one sided armageddon.
Round 4 Finds me facing my twin brother, Winner makes top 8. I was pissed, and so was he. Here we are, gonna kick eachother out of top 8. Oh well at least I was relaxed and knew what he was playing (Cephalid Breakfast). Game one he gets a ridiculous hand against me. Turn one drops Nomads en-Kor, Turn 2 drops Cephalid Illusionist, wins. I was like come on. I board in the 3 seal of cleansing to combat Aether Vial, 4 Revokers, the 2 Leylines, Oblivion Ring, and the Rule of Law and Ethersworn Canonist.
Game 2 I see no hate but am able to win off a Magus and sufficient mana denial. Smokestack and wasteland really hurt him when he is trying to keep a combo piece alive through the Magus.
Game 3 I draw a god hand. seal of cleansing, revoker, chalice and lands. Only a really stupid mistake and cost me this game. I go, drop a land and pass. He drop a vial and passes to me. I then drop revoker naming Nomads En-Kor Thinking that Chalice isn't going to do anything with that vial on the field. I draw a 2nd chalice and this is where my STUPID mistake comes in. Thinking that putting chalice at 2 would turn off his Stern Proctors, and Cephalid Illusionist, and completely forgetting about the vial sitting right there in the board. I drop it at 2, and then curse in my head as I realize that the hate in my hand is all 2 costs. Well, If i was gonna punt a game due to a stupid mistake like that, I'm glad it was to my brother. The game is still slow as he has to find an answer to my revoker but eventually he is able to pump his vial to 4 and vial in Necrotic ooze and an illusionist with a shaman en-kor on the field.
All and all, it was a good day. Looking back I can say that the wurmcoil engines did me absolutely no good. In testing they were nice paired with welder, but in the tournament I really would have liked them be Loadstone Golem or even Magus of the Moon. I think I will try and test Aura of Silence in the board instead of Seal of Cleasing for two reasons, It isn't hurt by chalice at 2 and can hurt affinity more. the only worry I have is the double white cost.
Armageddon and lock pieces always paired great with planeswalkers.
Are planewalkers the missing piece needed to make this strategy viable? If so, white is about to get an awesome planeswalker.
Serra the Benevolent
WW2, 4 Loyalty Planeswalker
+2: Creature you control with flying get +1/+1 until end of turn.
-3: Creature a 4/4 Angel Creature token w/ Flying and Vigilance
-6: You get an emblem with "If you control a creature, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead."
There is a white armageddon Stax thread rather more recent than this.
Not many of us on there, but it is rather more recent!
The answer is no, btw.
Any pw has to do two things, space is so tight in stax - most cards have to be lock pieces- so PWs need to be win cons and control.
Karn at 4 mana is better than this in most respects. Additionally, mono w geddon stax runs a lot of colourless sol lands, wastelands, ghost quarters etc, getting WW can be hard when lands, moxen get blown up often to stacks, 'geddon etc.
There is not really a missing piece. Post drs White stax is much better, if anything the Walking Ballista made a huge difference, and Karn helped, but ultimately the only issue is other Stax strategies are more reliable,' Geddon on its own is situationally powerful, but the deck needs to get to 4, its 4cc slot is overloaded a bit compared to mono b stax and dragon stompy.....
The PW itself is ok, its just not better than Karn.
Elspeth/Gideon is probably better in grindier matches like Miracles, this card is brtter vs more combo strategies, but it is slower to set up the ultimate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYKUeZQbMF0
Table of Contents
I. Introduction
II. Decklists
III. Card Choices
Synergies
IV. Matchups
Play tips
Enemies of Stax
Sideboarding
V. Forward Looking Statements
I. Introduction
How does the Wizards R&D team let you know they might have made a mistake?
Right from the get-go, these guys knew that this card would be straight up nasty. In fact, they were prepared to restrict it in Vintage before anyone would have a chance to take 4 of them and make them look like fools. Sure, you can’t win the game with one card, but you can end it for the other guy. This card had the potential to ruin the format that contains the strongest cards ever printed.
What card am I talking about? Trinisphere.
Indeed, a year after its release, Wizards smacked Trinisphere with the restriction stamp.
When people think of disruption, they think of cards like Duress, Hymn to Tourach, and Force of Will. But really, there is no card out there that is more feared than Trinsiphere. This is because for 3 mana, you change the rules of the game.
Aaron Forsythe of Wizards R&D on Trinisphere, “While it does serve a role of keeping combo decks in check, it also randomly destroys people on turn one, with little recourse other than Force of Will. And those games end up labeled with that heinous word—unfun. Not just “I lost” unfun, but “Why did I even come here to play?” unfun. The power level of the card is no jokes either, which is a big reason why I don't feel bad about its restriction.”
By introducing you to Trinisphere, maybe it sounds like I’m asking you to be a massive jerk. Welcome to the world of competitive magic. It is important to realize just how fast and cutthroat of a format Legacy is. There are decks out there that want no part of interacting with you. They will beat you on turn 1, 2 or 3. There are other decks that will smash you in the face with unfairly efficient creatures. Then there are decks that will not “cast” creatures, but rather place them in to play, while countering your every move. Still, others will just gather unfair levels of card advantage and drag you down over time. There are no guaranteed wins in legacy.
Knowing what these other decks can do, you are going to want to have Trinisphere by your side. The best turn 1 in legacy might very well be Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb, Trinsiphere. But we’ll talk about that in a bit.
Now, if you’re still reading, I bet you want to start using this card from Hell. Well, then, you’ve come to the right place, because the deck that uses Trinsiphere the most effectively is Armageddon Stax.
The aim of Armageddon Stax is to deal with the threats you expect to see, before you even see them. In fact, you won’t have to see all that much from your opponent if you play your cards right. You might not even have to do anything to them. You just have to wait for those lovely words, “I concede.”
While Trinsiphere exemplifies the concept of dealing with things ahead of time beautifully, another key card at your disposal is Chalice of the Void. In most cases when you place Chalice at “1” you will see some frustration on your opponent’s face. These two cards form the most potent preemptive strike in legacy. For those that enjoy a good political reference, Stax is the Bush Doctrine of Magic decks. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, ask Sarah Palin.
This deck is so good at locking down your opponent and crushing their spirit, you could almost get away with running no win conditions. However, the bare minimum should be Magus of the Tabernacle and Mishra’s Factory. Magus not only serves a crucial defensive function, but also gets the job done by itself on the offensive end. This is the absolute best creature we can use in this deck. No one can dispute the use of Magus, but there is some debate on whether Magus should be paired with another creature. The most popular creatures to go alongside Magus have traditionally been Exalted Angel, and then Baneslayer Angel.
II. Decklists
Let’s start with a sample decklist. Please direct me to some decklists with information including the name of the event, the number of players and where that player ultimately placed, and I'll add it here.
Alex Kenny
2010 SCG 5K Legacy Open – Seattle
9-16th Place
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
Spells [31]
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
6 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Defense Grid
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Humility
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Powder Keg
3 Tormod's Crypt
This version runs only Magus and Mishra's Factory as the win conditions. I like the mana base of this version a lot. The rule of thumb for us stat nerds is 3 Flagstones of Trokair and 6 Plains. A 1:1 ratio is not ideal.
Hannes Knabe-Paulsen
Hamburg, Germany -- August, 2010
1st Place: 54 Participants
2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
Spells [30]
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
3 Plains
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Horizon Canopy
4 City of Traitors
2 Savannah
1 Karakas
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Choke
2 Suppression Field
2 Karmic Justice
1 Aura of Silence
2 Sphere of Law
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
This version runs the most crucial sideboard card for the current metagame: Choke. I believe the decks that don't run Choke in the board are putting themselves at a huge disadvantage.
III. Card Choices
Main Deck
Trinisphere: It can't be overstated enough just how powerful this card is. You can set your opponent back by an incalculable number of turns at the drop of a hat. Some players will see you play this and literally take their hand, put it back on top of their deck, and start cycling through their sideboard. This card works great with Armageddon in locking your opponent out of playing cards, and it makes your opponent struggle to play countermagic.
Chalice of the Void: This is another one of the most powerful cards out there. If you don't have Trinisphere, it's often your next best first turn play. You have to make a judgment call about taking it out for game 2, since some players use a wider mana curve, and Supression Fields can also be very devastating in the right matchup. Check the matchups section for more details on how to sideboard with this deck.
Ghostly Prison: People call Armageddon Stax a prison style deck. Sometimes this is more important to get into play than Trinisphere. One such situation is when your opponent gets Aether Vial out early. This is better than Moat for various reasons, the biggest being the casting cost, and another being the prevalence of the card Tombstalker. Finally, the "WW" can be a problem for this deck to reach consistently in a timely manner.
Armageddon: Along with Trinisphere, this is also one of the most disruptive spells in the history of magic, and is definitely one of the best white cards ever. Cast Armageddon, then drop a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale into play and you can destroy all of your opponents creatures. Likewise, if you've got Magus of the Tabernacle out, you accomplish the same thing. Most people run 4 Armageddons, or split them with Ravages of War. Personally, I run 4 Armageddon and 1 Ravages of War, with the thinking that these are faster than Smokestack and usually more ideal to draw. In my opinion it is preferable to draw 2 Geddons than to draw none. Why? Well this card wins the game when you cast it. Also, your opponent will be looking to Duress, Thoughtseize, Force of Will or Daze your Armageddons any chance they get.
Smokestack: This card is important as a finisher. A lot of people look at this deck and think it needs a huge finishing creature, but with Smokestack you create a hard lock. This is better than having extra creatures because your opponent won't need to see it if you lock them out of the game completely destroying every last one of their permanents. More often than not, you should leave Smokestack at 1. There are times when you will need to go for it and put it at 2. Use your judgment. In my opinion, you should run 3 of these, rather than 4. The reason is that this is often the last card that you play from your hand.
Crucible of Worlds: This card works very well with Smokestack, Armageddon, and basically all of your lands, particularly Wasteland and Horizon Canopy. Some people will give up as soon as you get Wasteland and Crucible rolling. Finally, it has a nice synergy with Mox Diamond. Check the synergies section for a nice quick reminder of how all these cards interact.
Mox Diamond: Look, speed wins in legacy. This deck gets the lock down faster than aggro decks get their attack on. This card is a huge reason why. Don't even get me started on how good Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors are. Throw Mox Diamond into the mix, and this deck wastes little time getting up to 3. And you know what costs 3.
Oblivion Ring: This is a support card, and it's the only card I think could possibly be improved upon in the main deck. Since all the cards work so well together, there isn't a lot of room for improvement. The oblivion ring slot is up for debate. Additionally, the extra creature slot is up for debate.
Note: On the next edit I'll discuss the lands in detail. I think the mana base of this deck is unique and one of the most important things to get right as a deck builder, and understand fully to play this deck correctly.
Synergies:
Armageddon + Magus of the Tabernacle or Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (Destroys all their lands AND creatures. Make sure you play Armageddon first, then Tabernacle)
Smokestack + Armageddon (forces opponents permanent sacrifice)
Armageddon or Smokestack + Flagstones of Trokair
Armageddon + Mox Diamond
Armageddon or Smokestack Crucible of Worlds (replay lands)
Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland (Known as a Wastelock)
Crucible of Worlds + Horizon Canopy
Crucible of Worlds + Mox Diamond (Bring that land you pitched back into play)
Ghostly Prison + Magus/Tabernacle/Armageddon/Trinisphere/Smokestack (They just all work well together)
Flagstones of Trokair + Savannah
Note: Flagstones of Trokair does not make you sacrifice City of Traitors when you sacrifice it to Smokestack and search out a land
For decks that play it: Worldqueller + Mishra’s Factory + Crucible of Worlds (Name creature at upkeep)
IV. Matchups
The most important deck to beat right now is Merfolk. These decks are relatively inexpensive to build and thus show up in huge numbers to tournaments.
Merfolk, by Alex Majlaton
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
2 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
13 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
2 Energy Flux
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Problem Cards
Aether Vial, Daze, Force of Will, Spell Pierce
I’ll be referring to the following decklist for playtips and sideboarding against this deck.
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 World Queller
Spells [29]
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
3 Smokestack
4 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstone of Trokair
5 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
2 Sphere of Law
4 Suppression Field
1 Wasteland
2 Tormod's Crypt
Playtips:
Game 1
If you are on the play, and you have the opportunity to, you throw down Trinisphere. It will be highly unlikely you’ll lose that game if it resolves through force of will. Your next best bet is Chalice of the Void for 1. It is nice that some players are using less than 4 Force of Wills in the main.
On the draw, you have to deal with Daze. Don’t play around Spell Pierce. These decks tend to play anywhere from 0 to 3 copies of these, and usually none in the main now that Mental Misstep is around. So if you get 3 mana on turn 1, and you have a choice, play Chalice of the Void for 1. Just don’t tap out. If you have a choice of playing a plains and tapping out, or playing ancient tomb, taking 2 damage and floating 1 mana, you play the ancient tomb. No questions asked.
Important: If your opponent plays aether vial, whether it be goblins or merfolk, you are going to want to play ghostly prison before trinisphere.
Sideboarding:
In: +3 Choke, +4 Suppression Fields, +1 Ensnaring Bridge
Out: -4 Chalice of the Void, -1 Armageddon, -2 World Queller, -1 Oblivion Ring,
It is important to keep in mind that those 3 spell pierces and extra force of will are coming in against you, and those mental missteps are coming out. This deck is disruptive and it has a clock. Ensnaring Bridge is a nice extra stall piece, and the combination of Choke and Suppression fields will devastate them. The emphasis is the establishing the early game lock, so some finishers from the main deck are cut.
U/W Standstill, Owen Turtenwald
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
4 Standstill
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
3 Meddling Mage
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wrath of God
Zoo, John Kubilis
2011 GP Providence Top 8
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Spells [15]
2 Chain Lightning
1 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Price of Progress
2 Sylvan Library
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Choke
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
2 Price of Progress
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Problem Cards:
Gaddock Teeg, Qasali Pridemage, Grim Lavamancer, Price of Progess, Krosan Grip
User MoT_Pestilence explains the matchup,
Another important point to consider is to try not to walk right into a big Price of Progress. Don't overplay nonbasic lands from your hand. You can and should just hold them if you have access to 4-5 mana. They can hit you for 10+ damage with all these nonbasics. Karakas is a nice weapon against Gaddock Teeg. This creature will hamper your ability to play Armageddon and Smokestack.
Decklist for reference:
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 World Queller
Spells [29]
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
3 Smokestack
4 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstone of Trokair
5 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
2 Sphere of Law
4 Suppression Field
1 Wasteland
2 Tormod's Crypt
Sideboarding:
In: +2 Sphere of Law, +4 Supression Field, +1 Ensnaring Bridge
Out: -1 Armageddon, -1 Crucible of Worlds, -4 Chalice of the Void, -1 Smokestack
There's nothing wrong with Chalice in this matchup, but the reasoning behind putting in Supression Field is how it works wonders against fetch lands. Sphere of Law comes in to deal with all the burn. Expect the extra Teeg, Krosan Grip and Price of Progress to come in.
V. Forward Looking Statements
This post is a work in progress. I would like to discuss many of the main deck and sideboard cards at length in the Card Choices section, as well as have the most comprehensive matchup summaries out of all of the decks on MTG Salvation. I'm looking for assistance on the matchups against all of the Tier 1 and otherwise popular Legacy decks. This includes: Zoo, UW Standstill, BUG Standstill, Team America, Junk, Rock, Death and Taxes, High Tide, Mono Blue Control, Bant, Dredge, Hive Mind, and Storm combo decks.
Feel free to add some comments, or write up a matchup guide for any of those decks I mentioned. I will be sure to quote you in my next edit.
Finally, I'd like to just say thank you to everyone who has contributed so far. It's one of the many decks out there that can win any given tournament. What is important is to continue to learn as much as you can about this deck so you can play it optimally. Winning in legacy is more about playing well than lucking into good matchups. A lot of matchups are even. Play the right way, learn the ins and outs of this deck, and you'll do well. If more people were playing this deck it would be in tons of top 8s. Of course, what people use has a lot to do with how much it costs to build a deck, and what is in style. Stax is not currently in style, which in my opinion makes it a great choice to bring to a tournament and surprise the hell out of people.
The big creature slot continues to be debated. I've really liked BSA so far, but I understand there are compelling reasons to go with World Queller, Wurmcoil Engine, etc. With the prevalence of blue control decks and efficient creature removal right now, I'd also consider Elspeth, Knight Errant, which is a fantastic finisher, and synergizes very well with smokestack and potentially Humility. Right now I'm running a 3/2/2 split of Magus, BSA, Elspeth, and it's working out decently.
This can be a semi-reasonably-priced deck or potentially the most expensive deck in the format, including Ravages, Tabernacle, and potentially Moat. Are the excessively expensive pieces worth the extra cost, and if so which are the most important ones to acquire/run? Ravages seems particularly questionable, as Iv'e found myself taking out 'geddon effects often, and rarely want to play them unless I have both crucible and prison, or magus and a mox diamond already in play. I've almost never wished for more than 3/4. Also, how effective is the singleton Tabernacle if we have no way to fetch it?
Since you're splashing green for Choke, have you considered Beast Within ? I tried it out this week and was very successful with it, except in one situation where I lacked the colored mana for it. It's an extra out to problem attackers, Jace, opposing crucibles, and occasionally can even hit a pernicious deed that hasn't gone off, or an opponent's pesky land while under a tabernacle/prison effect. Most often though, I used it on my own extra lands, particularly Flagstones, to make a surprise blocker or extra creature to swing for the win.
Finally, why isn't this part of the comprehensive and popular White Stax thread, it seems odd to start a new thread from scratch for an already established deck that has an existing thread.
As far as the match-ups go, some of these are pretty self explanatory, but ill say it anyway.
Zoo: set chalice at 1 on the play and it's almost a guaranteed win. Half of zoo's deck is one cost and turning off, well....everything but Qasali Pridemage seems pretty good. Other than that, wasteland is also very good against them. It cuts Wild Nacatl down to size and hits almost ever land in their deck. This matchup is pretty nice as it is one of the few where you don't have to worry about your lock pieces getting discarded or countered. I say all of this, but it is not at all a walk in the park. If you don't have a very fast start, they will do what zoo does best and kill you on turn 3 or 4 if you don't slow them down at all. Watch out for those Pridemages and the newer favorite, Gaddock Teeg is also pretty good against us. Board in Suppression Field, Ensnaring Bridge, and depending on how heavy their burn is, Sphere of law or leyline of sanctity.
Dredge: My brother has played dredge for as long as I've played Stax and we play test against each other all the time. I can confidently say that Dredge is almost an auto win for Stax. Chalice for 1 on the play turns off almost ALL of their discard outlets, wasteland hits every land in their deck, Trinisphere stops activation of dread return unless they have the mana to pay for it, and it is almost impossible for them to win through a ghostly prison. I don't even have any graveyard hate in my board because its such a good matchup for me. The only cards I really bring in are Ratchet bombs/ Powder kegs.
Storm: Whether it's High Tide or TES your game plan against combo is pretty much the same. Against both chalice at one is going to be your 2nd strongest play (first being a Trinisphere). Against High Tide against this shuts down their namesake card and mana ramp source, as well as their cantrips. This is really important, and I cannot stress this enough. Combo decks are slowed to a crawl when they cannot sculpt their hands. Turn off their Ponders, Brainstorms, and Preordains and they are relying on the topdeck, which when on the clock is not good for them. Against TES the chalice shuts down their cantrips, but it also does so much more. Duress, Dark Ritual, Pyretic Ritual , and Thoughtseize all fall to its might. As for board options, there are 2 that I find to be the best. The first is Ethersworn Canonist. This little girl has two things going for her, She is awesome against stopping their combo AND she is a clock. What good is putting down a lock piece if you give them all the time in the world to play around it? You have to lock them down AND put them on a clock and she does both in one card. The other good choice is Rule of Law. The reason I say this is that for most Combo decks, the favorite anti-hate card of choice is either Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild. Both of these are nice for the combo player as it scoops up Trinispheres, Loadstone Golems, Chalices, and Canonists. Rule of Law, however, is immune to this and that makes it a great anti-anti-hate...card:smileup:.
For closing comments I just want to say to anyone thinking about playing Stax, It is an amazingly fun deck to play. Slowing the game down to a crawl may not sound fun to you, but that's probably because you were on the receiving end. It's a war of attrition that you came prepared for, and this may sound evil, but my favorite moments playing magic are still the looks on my opponents faces when I drop that first turn Trinisphere.
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
You are observant. They are plains.
Well, this might seem odd to you to start a new thread, but I explained my dissatisfaction with the other Stax thread to the moderator, and we thought it would be better if someone else made a new one. Check the forward looking statements. The opening post in the White Stax thread is outdated and doesn't talk about the current matchups I think are the most important. I want this to be a group project for us stax players, where we can debate card choice (Elspeth, Beast Within, Ravages, Tabernacle, World Queller, Wurmcoil) and share sideboarding strategies as well as play strategies against the decks that matter. Give me a decklist and I'll post it.
As for the deck I'm playing, I have never felt the need to cut the Geddon effects. They're faster than Smokestack, and I play 26 lands. If you post a matchup guide just do me a favor and post your decklist and sideboard along with it.
But i believe the meta now wont allow stax to have a chance at winning much.
but i can be wrong.
Thank you for Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome sig.
Legacy:
Shardlessless BUG (active)
Shardless BUG (retired)
UW Stoneblade (retired)
Maveric (retired)
Thopters (retired)
Dark Horizons (retired)
Dreadstill (retired)
Armageddon Staxx (retired)
- You think it is over, but Ibraman has just begun...
- When it rains, women get wet.
Thanks for your input. I plan to write a matchup guide for these decks. There's already one for Merfolk, and another user has talked some about Zoo and Dredge.
Crystal Vein sounds like a good budget option if you don't expect a lot of counters. I'd might recommend sacrificing it to play around daze at times if you expect it and need to get a spell in play a turn early.
Honestly I think tournament results are largely the result of which decks are getting the most play. Merfolks are represented the most and they make the most top 8s. That matchup is probably 50/50. And if you check the deck page for merfolks they concede "Choke, should it randomly be included in your opponents sideboard, is a big problem" No one can confidently say there's a best deck in the format, and a few of the decks in the tier 1 section are extremely vulnerable to this matchup.
Secondly, if someone like Kai Budde used this deck he would probably top 8. That's just how it works. Good players get results. Read a tournament report and you'll see how many errors players typically make. Metagame is a nice excuse for losing, but play your cards right and you can win with this deck. There's no lack of power in these cards.
Third, this deck in my view isn't all that inconsistent. Sure, it's not as consistant as decks that run brainstorms and fetches, but it does reuse cards from the graveyard and it does shut down other decks to buy more than enough time to draw things. I tend to see my opponents deck doesn't look all that consistent after they get done playing it against stax. Something I'd like to talk about in this deck primer is strategic mulliganing. You'll need to do it with this deck.
Finally, this deck is fun.
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
Moat is good, but it's not as fast as Ghostly Prison. Some decks are just so fast that you'll regret not playing the extra two Ghostly Prisons. Goblins is one of those decks. Not only that, but Tombstalker is one of the most common creatures to come across, and Moat will do nothing for that. For these reasons, most sideboards bring in Ensnaring Bridge for extra creature hate.
I would recommend trying one of these lists out before you change it up. These cards go so well together and leave room for only a few slots to mess around with. Check out the cards explanations section for comments on Smokestack. I usually leave it at 1, with some exceptions.
I'll make a note to talk about all these cards you bring up in my next update. Lodestone Golem comes into affect before Trinisphere, so if something costs U, like Brainstorm, Lodestone makes it cost 1U, then Trinisphere bumps it up to 2U, so it is not as effective as you'd want it to be. Then it makes things like Armageddon and Ghostly Prison cost more. I think we have much better options.
Personally, I wouldn't run Ajani Vengeant. The lifegain is nice, but I think I'd rather run Wurmcoil Engine if I wanted lifegain. I think these effects are a bit redundant, and the current pieces that we'd take out to use him are a bit more efficient at getting the job done. However, by all means try it out. That's what magic is all about.
I realize I did neglect to mention the main reason I wouldn't dive into red, and that's because I like Choke so much in the sideboard. I won't discourage you from trying anything though. You have the right attitude for trying out a new deck. Let me know how it goes.
3 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Great Furnace
3 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Plains
1 Mointain
Artifacts:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
2 Wurmcoil Engines
4 Goblin Welders
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
Enchantments:
4 Ghostly Prison
Spells:
3 Armageddon
Planeswalkers:
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Sphere of Law
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rule of Law
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Seal of Cleansing
I walk into the store seeing about 18-20 people so its a good sized crowed there. Most of the regulars are there with a couple people I've never seen before. Round one pairings come up and it takes me a while to find my opponent, It was someone I hadn't seen at the store before. He was an older man, and we sat down and he starts talking about how his sons got him into the game. He was very nice and it was a very fun match.
He wins the die roll and leads on Seat of the Synod, ornithopter, memnite, frogmite, go. Well, I knew he was playing affinity. I drop a Great furnace and then lead with a goblin welder. He picks it up to read it and I make a note of how fun it is to play with. He goes and drops another land into cranial plating but doesn't have enough to equip. I draw, and then wasteland his seat, putting an artifact in his graveyard and turning my welder on. On his turn he tries to equip the plating and swing but I swap it to the graveyard in response. My turn I drop a smokestack into play and again he picks it up to read it. He looked really confused as to how it worked so I explained it to him and then ended my turn. The next couple of turn is him trying to attack me and me welding the creature to the graveyard, eventually pumping my stax to 4 and then welding it to my graveyard before my upkeep. His board was destroyed and I killed him with a Magus. The first game lasted about 25 min.
I board in my 4 revokers and 3 seal of cleansing, taking out my 3 stax, 2 ajanis, and 2 wurmcoil engines. I thought they would be too slow if he landed a quick cranial plating. My opening hand was Goblin welder, mox diamond, great furnace, plains, ancient tomb, magus of the tabernacle after i mulled once. He drops an ancient den and then leads with a springleaf drum, ornithopter, memnite, relic of progenitus. I was not expecting that card. I draw, another goblin welder, and drop my great furnace into my first one. He takes his turn and puts a plating into play but again can't equip. I take a memnite hit and then draw a wasteland, again giving my welder a target. This game ended up being pretty short as I drew all 4 welders and put magus onto the board, eventually welding all of his lands into the graveyard so he couldnt pay for his creatures. Welder is pretty good against affinity.
Round 2 I'm put against countertop and it was not a fun match. Both games were long but consisted of nothing happening. Each game he landed a Jace and anything I played that could deal with it got countered. I was also Pernicious deeded 3 times. Those things hurt like a mother, especially against my artifact lands. Lost to a Jace ulti both games.
Round 3 pairs me up against someone I've played before. He was playing TES last time and so I was feeling pretty confident. He wins the die roll and leads underground sea, Hapless researcher? WTF? I had no idea what was going on. Seeing the Underground Sea, I though TES was still my best guess. I drop a flagstones and pass, nothing to do. He EOT brainstorms and then drops a swamp. I draw, drop a great furnace into goblin welder and pass. He EOT Entombs Iona and draws, and uses Animate Dead. I scoop.
I look at my board and realize I have NOTHING against reanimater. I was not expecting to see it at all. A little scared I draw my hand after not boarding in anything. no lands and I mull down to 5 eventually seeing 3 Trinisphere, ancient tomb, and a plains. I keep for no good reason and land the trini turn 2, and....He has no answer? It slows him down enough for me to topdeck into everything I needed. Eventually he is able to reanimate an Inkwell Leviathan, But he was left with no lands and I had a ghostly Prision and he scoops, knowing there is no coming back.
Game 3 I land a first turn Trinisphere and it resolves. ( He later told me he had the counter but thought he could play around it, and that he would save the counter for something else.) The trinisphere allowed me to resolve anything I wanted for the rest of the game without fear that it would be countered. After turns of me putting down various lock-pieces unanswered, he eventually scoops to an Ajani one sided armageddon.
Round 4 Finds me facing my twin brother, Winner makes top 8. I was pissed, and so was he. Here we are, gonna kick eachother out of top 8. Oh well at least I was relaxed and knew what he was playing (Cephalid Breakfast). Game one he gets a ridiculous hand against me. Turn one drops Nomads en-Kor, Turn 2 drops Cephalid Illusionist, wins. I was like come on. I board in the 3 seal of cleansing to combat Aether Vial, 4 Revokers, the 2 Leylines, Oblivion Ring, and the Rule of Law and Ethersworn Canonist.
Game 2 I see no hate but am able to win off a Magus and sufficient mana denial. Smokestack and wasteland really hurt him when he is trying to keep a combo piece alive through the Magus.
Game 3 I draw a god hand. seal of cleansing, revoker, chalice and lands. Only a really stupid mistake and cost me this game. I go, drop a land and pass. He drop a vial and passes to me. I then drop revoker naming Nomads En-Kor Thinking that Chalice isn't going to do anything with that vial on the field. I draw a 2nd chalice and this is where my STUPID mistake comes in. Thinking that putting chalice at 2 would turn off his Stern Proctors, and Cephalid Illusionist, and completely forgetting about the vial sitting right there in the board. I drop it at 2, and then curse in my head as I realize that the hate in my hand is all 2 costs. Well, If i was gonna punt a game due to a stupid mistake like that, I'm glad it was to my brother. The game is still slow as he has to find an answer to my revoker but eventually he is able to pump his vial to 4 and vial in Necrotic ooze and an illusionist with a shaman en-kor on the field.
All and all, it was a good day. Looking back I can say that the wurmcoil engines did me absolutely no good. In testing they were nice paired with welder, but in the tournament I really would have liked them be Loadstone Golem or even Magus of the Moon. I think I will try and test Aura of Silence in the board instead of Seal of Cleasing for two reasons, It isn't hurt by chalice at 2 and can hurt affinity more. the only worry I have is the double white cost.
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
Are planewalkers the missing piece needed to make this strategy viable? If so, white is about to get an awesome planeswalker.
Serra the Benevolent
WW2, 4 Loyalty Planeswalker
+2: Creature you control with flying get +1/+1 until end of turn.
-3: Creature a 4/4 Angel Creature token w/ Flying and Vigilance
-6: You get an emblem with "If you control a creature, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead."
Not many of us on there, but it is rather more recent!
The answer is no, btw.
Any pw has to do two things, space is so tight in stax - most cards have to be lock pieces- so PWs need to be win cons and control.
Karn at 4 mana is better than this in most respects. Additionally, mono w geddon stax runs a lot of colourless sol lands, wastelands, ghost quarters etc, getting WW can be hard when lands, moxen get blown up often to stacks, 'geddon etc.
There is not really a missing piece. Post drs White stax is much better, if anything the Walking Ballista made a huge difference, and Karn helped, but ultimately the only issue is other Stax strategies are more reliable,' Geddon on its own is situationally powerful, but the deck needs to get to 4, its 4cc slot is overloaded a bit compared to mono b stax and dragon stompy.....
The PW itself is ok, its just not better than Karn.
Elspeth/Gideon is probably better in grindier matches like Miracles, this card is brtter vs more combo strategies, but it is slower to set up the ultimate.