That last one sums it up. The thing about skullclamp too is, that for 2 Mana and a creature with one toughness, you get two cards. Now, for two mana and a creature in hand, you win.
Trix had a cute name, pictures with rabbits, and funny, jank, casual cards that no one had ever bothered wasting sleeves on before. To most people, however, that wasn't enough to keep it fun longer than about a week.
Yeah well, the thing that made Trix so annoying was the way it taunted the opponent, going to the barest minimum life it could and then trashing you. It also played far too many counters for its own good.
Ban FoW and as a result, Pact of Negation might not even be necessary in the deck. The deck then becomes basically pure awesomness.
Does no one else seriously think that it's a crying shame that most of cards in Legacy that are playable in multiple decks are disruption?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
Sure, you could footsteps of the goryo the hulk out, but you'd need to get the hulk in the grave then first, and make sure he's not plowed. That's quite a bit harder to do than just pay two mana, play flash and win.
No, it isn't. I still strongly think that the ONLY way to take this out is to take out Flash, and I don't care if they errata or ban. Just do something!?
I have the notorious deck HulkFlash and I think there are several problems. Protean Hulk should have had a maximum creature limit (6) when it was made. It's just too good to get every 0 casting cost creature in the game along with creatures mana cost equalling 6.
Also obviously Flash is going to be too good with too many other creatures and probably will get a ban in both Legacy and Vintage. I have played the deck against my own Oath and Grimlong and it straight out beats these decks (60-65%). Any creature based deck, it simply beats 99% barring the most horrible draw possible.
Something needs to be done, but I hope it takes a little while because I want to bring HulkFlash to my Vintage tournament for a few tourneys at least.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I don't agree with banning flash because it improves control decks.
Flash + Academy rector is a good combo, but not broken. It enables a new control deck, and that's good.
I don't agree with banning flash because it improves control decks. Flash + Academy rector is a good combo, but not broken. It enables a new control deck, and that's good.
Being able to put broken enchantments in play on turn 1 is not good for legacy. Also, everytime a new card is being printed with an ability that says "goes to the graveyard" or "leaves play" R&D is going to have to sit there and think if flash is going to break it. Also, Hulk costs 7, without flash there is no brokenness with him. Sure there are probably some reanimation strategies that would be effective, but they still have to wait until turn 3 realistically AND require some actual brains to play.
If you want to be sure, honestly, just ban the both of them. Then we don't have to worry about Flash. We don't have to worry about Hulk. No more problems.
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EDH Decks:
UWMerfolk (Sygg, River Guide) B Vampires (Anowon the Ruin Sage) BRU Zombies! (Lord of Tresserhorn) WUBRG Allies (Karona, False God) W Soldiers (Darien, King of Kjeldor)
I think when Protean Hulk was made, there should have been a clause that says 0-6 creatures with cc equal or less than 6. Being able to search for every 0 casting cost creature in the game does not seem fair. What about Vine Dryad or other creatures with alternate costs?
Also Flash should obviously be banned as it is too good with so many creatures as many other people have stated. I've played my HulkFlash (Legacy) against my Vintage Oath and Grimlong and it wins 60-65% of the games, even though I haven't had a turn 0 kill yet. Any creature based deck loses 99% of the time.
They will ban Flash, but I hope they wait a little while so I can play it at our Vintage tournaments.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I really don't feel like getting too deep into discussion at this point, but I do beleive that everyone is just severely over-reacting to this deck, like they do to any powerful deck that comes along. Truth of the matter is, this deck is more vunerable than other combo decks, and can be hated on in FAR more ways (lets see... things tht stop solidarity... REB, Force of Will, Daze. Things that stop flash... all of the above, plus Leyline of the Void and Aven Mindcensor, off the top of my head)
Honestly, if the deck becomes THAT popular, or if you are THAT afraid of loosing to it, just side 4x leylines and mull into one (unless I'm mistaken, or the decklist has changed that much, they don't have an efficient way of dealing with a turn 0 leyline)
Anyone who thinks that flash is degenerate enough to provoke a banning, un-errata-ing, or any other action on wizard's behalf is just being foolish. The meta will shift - like it shifted for solidarity, IGGY pop, and Threshold - and the game will continue without any pointless DCI action.
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-THIS IS JUST A LIST- Stax, Sapphire Tri, Set Abominae, {mikeyG}, nan, glurman, JollyTheOctopuss, Sakura, Mad Mat, Johnation, Cell, Goatchunx, VerzenChaos, DarkPhoenix, EvilDuck, echelon_house
For reference, the only other time I called for a banning that strongly was during the black Summer (I skipped Urza's block for other reasons).
I'm not calling for ban on Aether Vial, Lackey or Reset.
When I discovered Solidarity, I was happy to see a combo deck requiring so much thought and good play.
When Iggy Pop finally got results, I was delighted because there was work on it.
I love combo decks and I haven't seen anything wrong in Legacy until now. However, a combo deck that is as fast as Iggy Pop, able to pack more control than Threshold and still packing 8 tutors is a distorting aberration.
Legacy was great because a lot of rogue decks could compete decently. Hulk Flash pretty much reduces the possibilities to Hulk Flash or Hulk hate, as you acknowledge by inviting people to pack MD Leylines and REBs (which don't really work well anyway).
The fact that it breaks loose just before the Legacy GP that occurs every 3 years in the USA is also heart-breaking.
My problem, as the one of most of us who protest against Hulk Flash, is that it shrank the Legacy format dramatically, whereas it was a haven of creative deckbuilding before.
QFT. That basically sums it all up. Now just finish it so we can get over it please.
I have - I've tested multiple builds of the deck, as well as tested my favorites agasint it (SI, Solidarity, Gobbos) with sideboard modifications to handle it.
I'll admit that originall,y I was caught up in the whole "OMG FLASH!" hype, but after a bit of thought and testing, the fact of the matter is that its not much scarier than solidarity. In fact, its far, far, FAR easier to hate out (as it dies to all solidarity hate, only has 1 spell that needs to be countered, and is susceptible to ever more types of hate). I think that anyone on these forums that REALLY believes this deck to be severely meta-warping has just not fully explored the options. Flash wont be "fixed" beacuse it really isnt broken - its just very powerful.
Additionally, I'm really getting annoyed that everyone is crying bloody murder before the deck has post ANY NUMBERS. Please, if you're going to moan about the deck, wait until you have something to back yourself up other than MWS testing (and before someone flames me for it - I have a large, non-online, and relatively good group of playtesters. I don't use MWS opponents as a benchmark). Honestly though, just try testing different types of hate for it - after all, gobbos runs REB for solidarity, so wny can't any other deck devote sideboard space to matchup-specific hate?
Legacy was great because a lot of rogue decks could compete decently. Hulk Flash pretty much reduces the possibilities to Hulk Flash or Hulk hate, as you acknowledge by inviting people to pack MD Leylines and REBs (which don't really work well anyway).
My problem, as the one of most of us who protest against Hulk Flash, is that it shrank the Legacy format dramatically, whereas it was a haven of creative deckbuilding before.
First off, no, i am not encouraging people to run MD hate. You can prepare for it (run a good deck like solidarity or thresh), but there is absolutely no need to run maindeck hate for hulk flash. It is just another deck to expect, much like dragonstorm is at any current T2 tournament.
Second off, hulk flash has currently done NOTHING TO LEGACY. Don't make claims on its effects on the format until you have numbers outside of mws to back you up.
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-THIS IS JUST A LIST- Stax, Sapphire Tri, Set Abominae, {mikeyG}, nan, glurman, JollyTheOctopuss, Sakura, Mad Mat, Johnation, Cell, Goatchunx, VerzenChaos, DarkPhoenix, EvilDuck, echelon_house
Second off, hulk flash has currently done NOTHING TO LEGACY. Don't make claims on its effects on the format until you have numbers outside of mws to back you up.
Yoink. On a side-note, it is also missing the GPT result of MN with 3Flash T8ing. But GPT aren't real tournaments I guess.
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The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the absence but in the mastery of his passions. - Lord Alfred Tennyson
Yoink. On a side-note, it is also missing the GPT result of MN with 3Flash T8ing. But GPT aren't real tournaments I guess.
Ironic - The GPTs have flash as 1 and 2 ofs in t8 - and Dragonstorm is more popular in standard. How is this backing up flash being a metagame wrecking monster? (note: I'm not counting t2 of 8 players or t3 of 9 :/)
EDIT: On a side note, wow, i would never have expected to see so much belcher. O_o
You know what? I was going to reply. But f*** it. If you actually wanted to talk about this seriously you could read the relevant threads and see you're inane little "points" get smacked down a thousand times, but I have a feeling you're more interested in looking like a "rebel" because you don't "buy into the hype".
Well cool beans, Fonzie. I guess the rest of us are just suckers. The truth is no one else knows what they're doing, we just love over-reacting. It's all we know how to do.
So you win the prize. Congrats.
And you win the jackass prize :/
Its recall the same hype was running around the forums when you all thought jitte was going to be banned. Did you all know what you were doing then? Hypotheticals are one thing, and we can talk all we want, but the point remains: while hulk flash is a GOOD combo deck, it is by NO MEANS unbeatable or even that meta-warping that any part of the combo needs to be banned. So quit complaining.
Ironic - The GPTs have flash as 1 and 2 ofs in t8 - and Dragonstorm is more popular in standard. How is this backing up flash being a metagame wrecking monster? (note: I'm not counting t2 of 8 players or t3 of 9 :/)
t2 of 8 players? What are you talking about?
Even if you take out the single 9 man tournament listed (the smallest one by half), Flash variants still account for over 28% of all T8s since the errata. For contrast, the previous 'top deck', Goblins, is being listed at just under 9% before the change.
As was also mentioned, that tally isn't even counting more recent developments with the most improved versions of the deck, either, like GPT Rockville, which featured a T8 including 5 Flash decks.
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If God spoke to you, and commanded you to kill your own children, would you do it?
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
Ironic - The GPTs have flash as 1 and 2 ofs in t8 - and Dragonstorm is more popular in standard. How is this backing up flash being a metagame wrecking monster? (note: I'm not counting t2 of 8 players or t3 of 9 :/)
EDIT: On a side note, wow, i would never have expected to see so much belcher. O_o
And you win the jackass prize :/
Its recall the same hype was running around the forums when you all thought jitte was going to be banned. Did you all know what you were doing then? Hypotheticals are one thing, and we can talk all we want, but the point remains: while hulk flash is a GOOD combo deck, it is by NO MEANS unbeatable or even that meta-warping that any part of the combo needs to be banned. So quit complaining.
1. There's no t2 of 8 players.
2. Read the thread and see that majority of the t8 consisted of the following: Play blue or Play black or have turn1 win. The thread wasn't really all that updated either, there has been more GPT with all the same results after May 7th.
3, No one is calling it unbeatable, rather, it is subjecting the metagame to a far more strict design. A hindrance that forces you to: Play Blue or Black or have turn 1 wins.
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The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the absence but in the mastery of his passions. - Lord Alfred Tennyson
I'll admit that I do not have a chance to play Legacy and don't have any decks other than the HulkFlash deck that I ordered immediately on 4-27-07 to compete in Vintage tournaments (I know, I'm an ass:p).
When I say I've playtested it against my Oath and GrimLong, I'm talking about fully-powered Vintage decks going against the Legacy version of HulkFlash (although this version is with the Pacts which aren't legal for the upcoming Legacy tournaments) and HulkFlash straight out beats those decks. I'm talking about just over 60% of the time over both, although I have yet to find that turn 0 win ;).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
green - green soul warden, still thinking...
white - soul warden, ivory mask, true believer, auriok champion, samuri pale curtain, children korlis, aven mindslicer, gilded light, humility
red - red elemental blast, pyroblast, still thinking....
blue - stife, trickbind, fow, daze, counter spell of any type inc spall snare + commandeer, muddle mixture
black - duress, cabal therapy, hymn tourach, leyline of void, Extirpate, engine plague, unmask
mutli - meddle mage, shaddow of doubt, still thinking...
artifact - zuran orb
This is the same thing all you drones keep saying.
You clearly don't understand what a banned list is, what it's purpose is, or what a healthy meta-game looks like.
Maybe it would help make your point better if you had some actual data to back it up. An easy way to prove how busted Flash is would be to post some recent large Legacy tournament results where Flash monopolized the Top-8. Why don't you just do that?
Oh, that's right, because they don't exist.
The truth is, if you look at the numbers, Flash is not dominating the format. It's present, for sure, and nobody's denying it's a great deck. The problem is that there seems to be a disagreement regarding what warrants a ban.
SpatulaOfTheAges and Cabal_Chan: "Flash is making top-8's and beating some really old decks that used to be good! Ban it!"
Everybody else: "Uh, so? Who says old decks should remain winners forever?"
I'm really looking forward to Monday, when the Columbus results come in. I have 2 questions I'd really, really love for both you and Cabal to answer before Monday:
1. How many Hulk Flash decks in the top-8 would you consider low enough to agree that Flash doesn't need to be banned? If there are only 4 Flash decks in the Top-8, would that be few enough to convince you that maybe the deck isn't as all-powerful as you thought, and can dodge a ban? 3? 2? Or are you claiming that if even 1 Hulk Flash deck makes top-8, it still needs to be banned?
2. What is your honest prediction on the number of Flash decks that make the top-8? Are you expecting 6 in the top-8? All 8?
Others are welcome to chime in, but I'm most interested in Spatula's and Cabal's answers.
You do realize it's not about top-8s it's how it degenerates the format.
It's like ravager. Not all top 8s were filled with ravager, they were a mix between ravager.dec I-hate-ravager.dec, and randomscrub-thatbeatsravager.dec
The format had warped into a kill or be killed Because of ONE deck.
Now if Spatula was complaining because UG madness or The Rock and Big Blue were losing to flash I would agree with your attempted mockery of him. However he is talking about those "really old decks" that came into the limelight about a year ago, just a little more. That SHOULD hold the prescense in this format. I don't see how it's even feasbile for goblins to win this matchup other than God hand and a REALLY dumb opponent who keeps a 7 land hand/mulligans to a 5 land hand.
Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
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Yeah well, the thing that made Trix so annoying was the way it taunted the opponent, going to the barest minimum life it could and then trashing you. It also played far too many counters for its own good.
Ban FoW and as a result, Pact of Negation might not even be necessary in the deck. The deck then becomes basically pure awesomness.
Does no one else seriously think that it's a crying shame that most of cards in Legacy that are playable in multiple decks are disruption?
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Flash is only the catalyzer. There are other forms to use hulk, but they're all slower.
Okay. Go change it.
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
You've forgotten Havoc Demon.
Anyways, none of these combos are truly broken... I see gamekeeper like a 2-card oath, but i think it's not broken...
Ban Protean Hulk. Problem solved.
Also obviously Flash is going to be too good with too many other creatures and probably will get a ban in both Legacy and Vintage. I have played the deck against my own Oath and Grimlong and it straight out beats these decks (60-65%). Any creature based deck, it simply beats 99% barring the most horrible draw possible.
Something needs to be done, but I hope it takes a little while because I want to bring HulkFlash to my Vintage tournament for a few tourneys at least.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Flash + Academy rector is a good combo, but not broken. It enables a new control deck, and that's good.
Being able to put broken enchantments in play on turn 1 is not good for legacy. Also, everytime a new card is being printed with an ability that says "goes to the graveyard" or "leaves play" R&D is going to have to sit there and think if flash is going to break it. Also, Hulk costs 7, without flash there is no brokenness with him. Sure there are probably some reanimation strategies that would be effective, but they still have to wait until turn 3 realistically AND require some actual brains to play.
If you want to be sure, honestly, just ban the both of them. Then we don't have to worry about Flash. We don't have to worry about Hulk. No more problems.
UWMerfolk (Sygg, River Guide)
B Vampires (Anowon the Ruin Sage)
BRU Zombies! (Lord of Tresserhorn)
WUBRG Allies (Karona, False God)
W Soldiers (Darien, King of Kjeldor)
Also Flash should obviously be banned as it is too good with so many creatures as many other people have stated. I've played my HulkFlash (Legacy) against my Vintage Oath and Grimlong and it wins 60-65% of the games, even though I haven't had a turn 0 kill yet. Any creature based deck loses 99% of the time.
They will ban Flash, but I hope they wait a little while so I can play it at our Vintage tournaments.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Honestly, if the deck becomes THAT popular, or if you are THAT afraid of loosing to it, just side 4x leylines and mull into one (unless I'm mistaken, or the decklist has changed that much, they don't have an efficient way of dealing with a turn 0 leyline)
Anyone who thinks that flash is degenerate enough to provoke a banning, un-errata-ing, or any other action on wizard's behalf is just being foolish. The meta will shift - like it shifted for solidarity, IGGY pop, and Threshold - and the game will continue without any pointless DCI action.
Then perhaps you should try playtesting.
QFT. That basically sums it all up. Now just finish it so we can get over it please.
I have - I've tested multiple builds of the deck, as well as tested my favorites agasint it (SI, Solidarity, Gobbos) with sideboard modifications to handle it.
I'll admit that originall,y I was caught up in the whole "OMG FLASH!" hype, but after a bit of thought and testing, the fact of the matter is that its not much scarier than solidarity. In fact, its far, far, FAR easier to hate out (as it dies to all solidarity hate, only has 1 spell that needs to be countered, and is susceptible to ever more types of hate). I think that anyone on these forums that REALLY believes this deck to be severely meta-warping has just not fully explored the options. Flash wont be "fixed" beacuse it really isnt broken - its just very powerful.
Additionally, I'm really getting annoyed that everyone is crying bloody murder before the deck has post ANY NUMBERS. Please, if you're going to moan about the deck, wait until you have something to back yourself up other than MWS testing (and before someone flames me for it - I have a large, non-online, and relatively good group of playtesters. I don't use MWS opponents as a benchmark). Honestly though, just try testing different types of hate for it - after all, gobbos runs REB for solidarity, so wny can't any other deck devote sideboard space to matchup-specific hate?
First off, no, i am not encouraging people to run MD hate. You can prepare for it (run a good deck like solidarity or thresh), but there is absolutely no need to run maindeck hate for hulk flash. It is just another deck to expect, much like dragonstorm is at any current T2 tournament.
Second off, hulk flash has currently done NOTHING TO LEGACY. Don't make claims on its effects on the format until you have numbers outside of mws to back you up.
Ironic - The GPTs have flash as 1 and 2 ofs in t8 - and Dragonstorm is more popular in standard. How is this backing up flash being a metagame wrecking monster? (note: I'm not counting t2 of 8 players or t3 of 9 :/)
EDIT: On a side note, wow, i would never have expected to see so much belcher. O_o
And you win the jackass prize :/
Its recall the same hype was running around the forums when you all thought jitte was going to be banned. Did you all know what you were doing then? Hypotheticals are one thing, and we can talk all we want, but the point remains: while hulk flash is a GOOD combo deck, it is by NO MEANS unbeatable or even that meta-warping that any part of the combo needs to be banned. So quit complaining.
t2 of 8 players? What are you talking about?
Even if you take out the single 9 man tournament listed (the smallest one by half), Flash variants still account for over 28% of all T8s since the errata. For contrast, the previous 'top deck', Goblins, is being listed at just under 9% before the change.
As was also mentioned, that tally isn't even counting more recent developments with the most improved versions of the deck, either, like GPT Rockville, which featured a T8 including 5 Flash decks.
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
1. There's no t2 of 8 players.
2. Read the thread and see that majority of the t8 consisted of the following: Play blue or Play black or have turn1 win. The thread wasn't really all that updated either, there has been more GPT with all the same results after May 7th.
3, No one is calling it unbeatable, rather, it is subjecting the metagame to a far more strict design. A hindrance that forces you to: Play Blue or Black or have turn 1 wins.
When I say I've playtested it against my Oath and GrimLong, I'm talking about fully-powered Vintage decks going against the Legacy version of HulkFlash (although this version is with the Pacts which aren't legal for the upcoming Legacy tournaments) and HulkFlash straight out beats those decks. I'm talking about just over 60% of the time over both, although I have yet to find that turn 0 win ;).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)green - green soul warden, still thinking...
white - soul warden, ivory mask, true believer, auriok champion, samuri pale curtain, children korlis, aven mindslicer, gilded light, humility
red - red elemental blast, pyroblast, still thinking....
blue - stife, trickbind, fow, daze, counter spell of any type inc spall snare + commandeer, muddle mixture
black - duress, cabal therapy, hymn tourach, leyline of void, Extirpate, engine plague, unmask
mutli - meddle mage, shaddow of doubt, still thinking...
artifact - zuran orb
there are heaps to kill it.... heaps!!1
3 Nether Shadow BETA
2 Plateau
2 Bayou
HAVES:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=71454
Power does not corrupt, power attracts those that are inherently corruptible.
The powerful prognosticative powers of Leonginus - a "force" indeed!!
So, a deck top-8-ing 3 times is where we've set the bar for banning now? How has Goblins survived so long?
Maybe it would help make your point better if you had some actual data to back it up. An easy way to prove how busted Flash is would be to post some recent large Legacy tournament results where Flash monopolized the Top-8. Why don't you just do that?
Oh, that's right, because they don't exist.
The truth is, if you look at the numbers, Flash is not dominating the format. It's present, for sure, and nobody's denying it's a great deck. The problem is that there seems to be a disagreement regarding what warrants a ban.
SpatulaOfTheAges and Cabal_Chan: "Flash is making top-8's and beating some really old decks that used to be good! Ban it!"
Everybody else: "Uh, so? Who says old decks should remain winners forever?"
I'm really looking forward to Monday, when the Columbus results come in. I have 2 questions I'd really, really love for both you and Cabal to answer before Monday:
1. How many Hulk Flash decks in the top-8 would you consider low enough to agree that Flash doesn't need to be banned? If there are only 4 Flash decks in the Top-8, would that be few enough to convince you that maybe the deck isn't as all-powerful as you thought, and can dodge a ban? 3? 2? Or are you claiming that if even 1 Hulk Flash deck makes top-8, it still needs to be banned?
2. What is your honest prediction on the number of Flash decks that make the top-8? Are you expecting 6 in the top-8? All 8?
Others are welcome to chime in, but I'm most interested in Spatula's and Cabal's answers.
It's like ravager. Not all top 8s were filled with ravager, they were a mix between ravager.dec I-hate-ravager.dec, and randomscrub-thatbeatsravager.dec
The format had warped into a kill or be killed Because of ONE deck.
Now if Spatula was complaining because UG madness or The Rock and Big Blue were losing to flash I would agree with your attempted mockery of him. However he is talking about those "really old decks" that came into the limelight about a year ago, just a little more. That SHOULD hold the prescense in this format. I don't see how it's even feasbile for goblins to win this matchup other than God hand and a REALLY dumb opponent who keeps a 7 land hand/mulligans to a 5 land hand.
Goblins didn't take over 30% of the Top 8s for GPTs