Question: Which cards do you guys think should never be included in a cube? I want to make my cube fun, but it's hard to not overpower one or two colors.
Outside of Power (i'm not entirely opposed) there isn't a whole lot. I don't like Channel or Ankh of Mishra. They're just completely unfun to play against, and a turn 2 ankh on the play is prettymuch just unbeatable if u dont randomly have an answer maindeck right away. being able to turn 2 an emrakul (or any eldrazi, karn, etc) just shouldnt be something u can realistically do in cube.
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
That's a hard, hard question to answer. For me personally the biggest thing to NOT include is fast mana. I don't want games ended turn two because one player powered out a titan or Mind Twisted her opponent for their entire hand. Fast mana helps control (U/W/B) more than aggro (R/W/G) too. Too much color fixing may make 5cc too good an archtype. Initially I wanted a rainbow favorable cube but I've come to realize that while I may still have more gold and hybrid colored cards than most, my original plan of tons of land fixing was ill conceived. More than anything, don't think that cubes just sprout out of collections whole cloth. We build and play..... and play..... and play. Pay attention to the decks that get built over time and which colors/strategies win most often. Talk to your players and you'll see what kinds of cards you should target to get as you slowly evolve your cube to your satisfaction.
I think that the only definitive thing to look out for are cards which curbstomp archetypes that you enjoy and want to promote. Anti-aggro cards if you want everyone to have to pay attention to tempo, for instance -- an excessive amount of cheap wraths and anti-attack cards should be avoided in that case.
eidolon232: I just looked at your cube. That seems pretty much exactly what i'm going for, and i'm probably going to take your cube list if that's alright. If it's not, well, i'll probably do it anyway. What's the chances i'll meet up with you? Lol. Seriously dude, best list i've seen so far.
Cards your group dislike or does not want to play with. That's all!
This. One man's trash is another man's treasure, as they say. Some people hate playing with overpowered cards. I love it. So people will say to ban some cards because they're unfun or because they're too good, but those are just the kinds of cards I like to play with.
Is that the Memory Adept one? I just added him, but have yet to test. He's in place of the JTMS I couldn't afford.
Yeah, the problem with him is that using his +0 twice is basically an automatic win when decks are 40 cards to start, and he has a decently high starting loyalty plus his +1 draws a card (giving card advantage, making him harder to kill, and still grinding towards that mill win). It can be extremely frustrating to play against Jace 3, because you literally have to answer him right away or you basically just lose.
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This. One man's trash is another man's treasure, as they say. Some people hate playing with overpowered cards. I love it. So people will say to ban some cards because they're unfun or because they're too good, but those are just the kinds of cards I like to play with.
I agree with this 100%.
wtwlf123 cube list is the kind of cube I love to play.
I think that eidolon232 has a nice list as well, but I think that there are many cards he would never play that I love and many cube players LOVE!!
it comes down to test, test and more testing. Need to find out what your play group finds to be fun.
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Moat is different that the other two: When Timely or Wall resolves, aggro cannot win any more because it can't both pass the new blockers and the life gain associated to them. With Moat, as long as you either has flyers, reach, or enchantment removal, you're still good to go. Timely and Wall screw aggro, Moat screws bad decks.
When I tried to cut Moat recently, there has been an outcry in my play group, including from the usual aggro players, as they argued that the card added depths to the game. One of them even said that it's like the "Go to Jail" Monopoly card: it's not fun by itself, but games need a few "unfun" elements if they improve the great picture and make the whole game more fun.
It's like the Land Destruction spells: mana screw or color screw is aknowledged as one of the unfun elements of Magic. Increasing the odds of this happening should decrease the fun. But because it gives weapon to a whole archetype, at the end, it adds something fun.
A lot of people have different ideas of fun. I run an unpowered cube, mostly because of budget (I'll shell out for a CE set one day), but anything is up for consideration regardless of power level. The cards that I don't run because my group didn't like them are:
Jace 3.0
Moat
Sol Ring (we ran this for ages but cut it recently)
Chaos Orb (we ran this for a while but we started not liking it)
We do, however, still run Mana Drain, Mana Crypt, Library of Alexandria, Mind Twist and more.
Don't run cards that will not get played. This means don't include cards with a lower power level compared to the other cards in your cube. They will end up being side board material most of the times as people will make the best deck they can and not include suboptimal cards for the fun factor.
Unless your cube group is more casual in which case you can include whatever you want.
Excluding cards for other reasons is up to you. Being overpowered, being unfun, not being real cards (uncards, portal, chaos orb, ante), being too expensive is totally up to you and your playing group. With those choices we can not help you.
I consider midrange more of an aggro archetype than a ramp archetype.
Mid-range is a mid-range archetype. Aggro is a different theater all-together. Aggro is the Rock to mid-range's Paper (control being "Scissors", as far as that goes).
planeswalkers. they unbalance any format they're in. other than that it's all personal preference.
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planeswalkers. they unbalance any format they're in. other than that it's all personal preference.
I think not including any planeswalkers is also just personal preference. While they influence any format they're in, they shouldn't unbalance game play as long as the cube is well build with their presence in mind.
planeswalkers. they unbalance any format they're in. other than that it's all personal preference.
This is silly. Planeswalkers only create imbalance if you can't balance your cube otherwise. To say that Chandra Nalaar creates a level of imbalance that Armageddon doesn't is just absurd.
But in all seriousness you should avoid cards that tend to create coin flip (a la win or lose) game states which someone either has 'it' or not with no in between for good play.
Either fast mana or not is a personal preference, then after that it's all fair game as long as you don't poo-poo all over aggro which seems to be the universal cubing litmus test on whether a cube is healthy or not. Aggro must always be kindly supported and nurtured into a staple atchetype or your going to have a dire environment where rock (aggro) is worse than scissors (control). So bear that in mind at all time.
Also don't include too narrow cards, that only supports a minority archetype that doesn't pop up often.
Don't run cards that will not get played. This means don't include cards with a lower power level compared to the other cards in your cube. They will end up being side board material most of the times as people will make the best deck they can and not include suboptimal cards for the fun factor.
Unless your cube group is more casual in which case you can include whatever you want.
Excluding cards for other reasons is up to you. Being overpowered, being unfun, not being real cards (uncards, portal, chaos orb, ante), being too expensive is totally up to you and your playing group. With those choices we can not help you.
The only thing I can add to this is is the flipside; if you are targeting a certain power level for your cube, don't include cards that are overpowered compared to the rest of your cube. I guess when you put it all together - keep your cube balanced.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
http://cubetutor.com/cubeblog/993
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/23690
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=221863
The first page of my Cube list also includes my cube workbook for excel, feel free to look at and use it if you would like to.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Is that the Memory Adept one? I just added him, but have yet to test. He's in place of the JTMS I couldn't afford.
This. One man's trash is another man's treasure, as they say. Some people hate playing with overpowered cards. I love it. So people will say to ban some cards because they're unfun or because they're too good, but those are just the kinds of cards I like to play with.
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Yeah, the problem with him is that using his +0 twice is basically an automatic win when decks are 40 cards to start, and he has a decently high starting loyalty plus his +1 draws a card (giving card advantage, making him harder to kill, and still grinding towards that mill win). It can be extremely frustrating to play against Jace 3, because you literally have to answer him right away or you basically just lose.
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I agree with this 100%.
wtwlf123 cube list is the kind of cube I love to play.
I think that eidolon232 has a nice list as well, but I think that there are many cards he would never play that I love and many cube players LOVE!!
it comes down to test, test and more testing. Need to find out what your play group finds to be fun.
You can also view it here at Cubetutor <---- please draft my cube!!
and you can also see it at DeckStats
Everything in this post is spot-on.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Jace 3.0
Moat
Sol Ring (we ran this for ages but cut it recently)
Chaos Orb (we ran this for a while but we started not liking it)
We do, however, still run Mana Drain, Mana Crypt, Library of Alexandria, Mind Twist and more.
Juju Alters - Altered MTG Cards
So you're playing ramp, not aggro?
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Unless your cube group is more casual in which case you can include whatever you want.
Excluding cards for other reasons is up to you. Being overpowered, being unfun, not being real cards (uncards, portal, chaos orb, ante), being too expensive is totally up to you and your playing group. With those choices we can not help you.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Mid-range is a mid-range archetype. Aggro is a different theater all-together. Aggro is the Rock to mid-range's Paper (control being "Scissors", as far as that goes).
And Ramp is an archetype in mid-range's theater.
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
I think not including any planeswalkers is also just personal preference. While they influence any format they're in, they shouldn't unbalance game play as long as the cube is well build with their presence in mind.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
This is silly. Planeswalkers only create imbalance if you can't balance your cube otherwise. To say that Chandra Nalaar creates a level of imbalance that Armageddon doesn't is just absurd.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Trololololol!
But in all seriousness you should avoid cards that tend to create coin flip (a la win or lose) game states which someone either has 'it' or not with no in between for good play.
Either fast mana or not is a personal preference, then after that it's all fair game as long as you don't poo-poo all over aggro which seems to be the universal cubing litmus test on whether a cube is healthy or not. Aggro must always be kindly supported and nurtured into a staple atchetype or your going to have a dire environment where rock (aggro) is worse than scissors (control). So bear that in mind at all time.
Also don't include too narrow cards, that only supports a minority archetype that doesn't pop up often.
The only thing I can add to this is is the flipside; if you are targeting a certain power level for your cube, don't include cards that are overpowered compared to the rest of your cube. I guess when you put it all together - keep your cube balanced.
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