Because 'best' is only relevant in context. If they printed a 2/2 for U with no drawbacks, I wouldn't run it despite it being one of the best aggressive creatures ever printed.
Edit: FWIW I plan on running Wolfbitten Captive even in the new green section.
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I would run a 2/2 for U, easily. I splash blue all the time in aggro decks and that would make the MD 100% of the time.
Like I said, you shouldn't be running cards you feel are subpar just to support an archetype. I have good support for green aggro and midrange/ramp, with nothing there just making up the numbers. Sure, I'd run a few more aggro cards if available, but there're not printed yet, so there's plenty of good midrange cards to fill in for the mean time. It's the same reason I don't agree with forcing blue aggro - it happens naturally by just playing the good blue cards.
Fastbond is only good with lots of card draw. Otherwise, it won't get you beyond the amount of mana you'd have had without it, only sooner. I wouldn't recommend it even if you want to push ramp.
The other cards I can heartily recommend, except Birthing Pod, Titan and Hornet Queen, which I have no experience with.
Cards I wouldn't recommend cutting are Wild Nacatl, Treetop Village, and the Boas, which are just too good to cut (maybe Mire Boa). I also like Blastoderm quite a lot, but it's not an unthinkable cut.
I think you're still thinking of green as an aggro color. If I'm focusing on midrange, what is Twinblade Slasher going to do for me? I'm specifically trying to do something different with green, and your suggestions seem to be that I change 5 cards out of a 65 card section and expect it to make a difference.
Twinblade Slasher does a very good job at trading up against pretty much every midrange critter.
I'm not convinced the 8 cards I'm swapping will really be enough, but the two engine/toolbox cards (Pod and Zenith) I think will be essential to building green in a different way. Green will now have several engine cards to build around, beyond just Survival, now you have Loam, Pod, Zenith (less so, obviously), to mess with, all of which support midrange very well. What exactly is Wild Nacatl doing for me? It's usually going to be a 2/2 unless I end up in a very specific color combination, and I've already decided 2/2's for 1 isn't where I want to be in green.
Yeah, Wild Nactal. Loam Lion and Kird Ape are probably useless if you are going away from green aggro.
I'm not convinced I'm going to keep these changes forever, but I think if I'm going to try and make green a toolboxy midrange color, then I really need to make substantial changes and try something completely different. Halfassing it won't be noticed.
If you want more combo cards, how about things like Nostalgic Dreams? Holistic Wisdom?
I do this but not necessarily on a every card basis. I run the cards I think make the green section as strong as possible, if that means leaving out a card that's archetype is unsupported then so be it.
I may be wrong, and that seems likely since most of the forum disagrees, but I think of the 3 realistic archetypes green can support as a main color (aggro, midrange, ramp) that aggro is the weakest of the three. Green midrange with it's powerful 2 for 1's (eg. Eternal Witness, Acidic Slime, Indrik Stomphowler) and solid hard to answer 4&5 drops (Thrun, Phantom Centaur, Thornling, and Deranged Hermit) , make midrange I think is unquestionable it's strongest archetype, it pairs well with black and white. Green based ramp in my experience is better than base green aggro.
That said green is a solid support color for aggro, it provides some insane 2 drops (goyf, Scavenging Ooze, and Mayor) and awesome multicolor cards (Bloodbraid, Kird ape, Loam lion, Nactal) that said I don't think that putting 2 power 1 drops in is in it's best interest. I think it overall lowers the power of an average green deck, as green aggro is a tertiary archetype in my cube. That said recent cards are forcing me to examine those ideas and it's possible post DKA that green aggro will be better than Ramp.
That said that raises the problem of then 4 of the 5 colors having aggro as their main archetype, and at least in my group the last supporting that archetype. There is such a thing as too much aggro, and I don't want the cube to turn into a high powered version of ZEN or M12 limited.
Cutting Treetop Village is a bad idea no matter what you're trying to do with your green section.
Reading all of this discussion makes me glad that green is badass in my cube.
This is what I was thinking. Green gets drafted a lot in my cube, in combination with every other color (white most rarely) and once in a while as a mono deck. And we had a nearly monogreen deck win a draft once (blue splash for SSS and FoF). And RG aggro has been sweet!
Their cubes probably can give you the best advice.
Suggested Cuts/Additions
- Winter's Grasp -- if you're not supporting Green aggro, this card is probably a bit awkward.
+ Mayor of Avabruck -- this is the 3rd best green 2 drop, and that's saying something. Goes in aggro, midrange, and control/rock.
- Krosan Grip -- why would you run this Uktabi Orangutan... I know there is that very occasional opportunity that Split Second matters AND you happen to have this in hand, but otherwise having a 2/2 body is always relevant.
+ Uktabi Orangutan or even Nantuko Vigilante if you don't like reprints
- Oracle of Mul Daya - This sometimes works, and sometimes is just a waste. 4CMC cards shouldn't be inconsistent like that.
+ Wild Mongrel - If you haven't played with this card, it's probably hard to judge how well it plays
- Life from the Loam - unless your playgroup really plays around this card a lot, it's going to be last pick/sideboard material all the time
+ Genesis - this probably does more of what you want with your new ramp strategy (eg. eat up free mana and giving you an engine)
- Rampaging Baloths - this guy never seems to work out right
+ Kodama of the North Tree - this guy comes out a turn earlier and always seems to work out right.
Cards to watch for slightly lower power level/slow play along w/ suggested replacements Worldly Tutor Birthing Pod
Green's 2 drops are probably the strongest in the cube, and the fact that you are not running any of the Boas, Mongrel, or Mayor makes it unsurprising that green was getting run over.
You are correct merl, I was thinking in a more long term sense, but I do think in Cubes that support U/x Tempo it can start to become a little concern. If all five colors have aggro tendencies it can be a little overwhelming, nothing major just a general sense of even control decks trending towards aggro/control rather than pure control. Some of the players in my playgroup like to play true control mirrors (draw go etc..) and I want to have them be able to. That can be a little tricky when all 5 colors have good aggressive cards in them.
I did make a rather stupid claim with the M12/ZEN comparison but I think the idea in general is something to keep an eye if WotC continues to print good aggro creatures at the rate they've been printing them with M12-DKA.
Draw go sadly is going the way of the dodo I fear At least in cube. The problem is that the threats have such a big impact, in a world of Titans, Wurmcoil engine and not the least all the Planeswalker.
Draw-go has been doing rather poorly in our playing group. Never really bad, but just too slow.
Control needs more help now then aggro in our cube. They keep printing great aggro cards, powerfull Walkers and high impact midrange cards. But where are the new Moats, the new counters? The only way is too adept for the control players. Embrace the powers of planes walkers, combine control with ramp, burn or combo.
I've been crazy busy at work for the past week and haven't had any time to even consider this thread, but I wanted to take a quick minute and thank all of y'all for your input. I didn't want to give the impression that I didn't appreciate your comments, I just haven't had time to process them all right yet.
I actually don't think this style of deck has been good for a long time.
Shrug, I view cube as a casual format and that sort of deck seems like anti-fun. Also nowadays you'd probably have to work at it to make such a deck possible, or just not run any "can't be countered" or manland type cards.
I actually don't think this style of deck has been good for a long time.
I disagree.
When I draft "classic" control, I typically run around 7-1 on the night. The trick is only 1-2 high impact creatures, lots of sweepers (I run 3-5 in my 40) and your own manlands/"strip mines" and some ways to grind out advantage like planeswalkers, Academy Ruins, and lots of card draw. I actually find spot removal unnecessary, and only need a few counters to save for the bombs. Some fast mana power doesn't hurt either!;)
Shrug, I view cube as a casual format and that sort of deck seems like anti-fun. Also nowadays you'd probably have to work at it to make such a deck possible, or just not run any "can't be countered" or manland type cards.
I think that this strategy is a very important magic element. And find it funny and skill-intensive to play with or against such decks.
Classic control still works in our cube, you just have to make more concessions to aggro than previously. Luckily, there have been a lot of cheap, good, defensive creatures printed in white and blue, and black has gotten some great lifegain.
Their cubes probably can give you the best advice.
Suggested Cuts/Additions
- Winter's Grasp -- if you're not supporting Green aggro, this card is probably a bit awkward.
+ Mayor of Avabruck -- this is the 3rd best green 2 drop, and that's saying something. Goes in aggro, midrange, and control/rock.
- Krosan Grip -- why would you run this Uktabi Orangutan... I know there is that very occasional opportunity that Split Second matters AND you happen to have this in hand, but otherwise having a 2/2 body is always relevant.
+ Uktabi Orangutan or even Nantuko Vigilante if you don't like reprints
- Oracle of Mul Daya - This sometimes works, and sometimes is just a waste. 4CMC cards shouldn't be inconsistent like that.
+ Wild Mongrel - If you haven't played with this card, it's probably hard to judge how well it plays
- Life from the Loam - unless your playgroup really plays around this card a lot, it's going to be last pick/sideboard material all the time
+ Genesis - this probably does more of what you want with your new ramp strategy (eg. eat up free mana and giving you an engine)
- Rampaging Baloths - this guy never seems to work out right
+ Kodama of the North Tree - this guy comes out a turn earlier and always seems to work out right.
Cards to watch for slightly lower power level/slow play along w/ suggested replacements Worldly Tutor Birthing Pod
Green's 2 drops are probably the strongest in the cube, and the fact that you are not running any of the Boas, Mongrel, or Mayor makes it unsurprising that green was getting run over.
3rd? I hope your joking? I wouldn't put it in my top 10 Green 2 drops.
The anthem Effect is cute but rarely relevant, I really don't see it flipping that often and even when it does, it has to live through that turn before it makes a wolf. No offense, but the card is weak on all fronts.
but I think it's a very powerful risk/reward card.
This is true in this case
I like Mayor, but his day side has a bit too little to offer. In a deck with enough Humans, I'd play him. I think the playable werewolves for cube are the ones where the day side is ~1 coloured mana from playability or at least marginality. Wolfbitten Captive, Instigator Gang, Kruin Outlaw and Huntmaster are all about OK on the front sides, although I'd be very hesitant to run the latter three at 360. I can't comment on Reckless Waif as I have no experience with it although I know it has its fans on here. I wonder if a one mana version of the mayor's front side would be considered playable or not.
Because 'best' is only relevant in context. If they printed a 2/2 for U with no drawbacks, I wouldn't run it despite it being one of the best aggressive creatures ever printed.
Edit: FWIW I plan on running Wolfbitten Captive even in the new green section.
Like I said, you shouldn't be running cards you feel are subpar just to support an archetype. I have good support for green aggro and midrange/ramp, with nothing there just making up the numbers. Sure, I'd run a few more aggro cards if available, but there're not printed yet, so there's plenty of good midrange cards to fill in for the mean time. It's the same reason I don't agree with forcing blue aggro - it happens naturally by just playing the good blue cards.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Fastbond is only good with lots of card draw. Otherwise, it won't get you beyond the amount of mana you'd have had without it, only sooner. I wouldn't recommend it even if you want to push ramp.
The other cards I can heartily recommend, except Birthing Pod, Titan and Hornet Queen, which I have no experience with.
Cards I wouldn't recommend cutting are Wild Nacatl, Treetop Village, and the Boas, which are just too good to cut (maybe Mire Boa). I also like Blastoderm quite a lot, but it's not an unthinkable cut.
Twinblade Slasher does a very good job at trading up against pretty much every midrange critter.
Yeah, Wild Nactal. Loam Lion and Kird Ape are probably useless if you are going away from green aggro.
If you want more combo cards, how about things like Nostalgic Dreams? Holistic Wisdom?
I do this but not necessarily on a every card basis. I run the cards I think make the green section as strong as possible, if that means leaving out a card that's archetype is unsupported then so be it.
I may be wrong, and that seems likely since most of the forum disagrees, but I think of the 3 realistic archetypes green can support as a main color (aggro, midrange, ramp) that aggro is the weakest of the three. Green midrange with it's powerful 2 for 1's (eg. Eternal Witness, Acidic Slime, Indrik Stomphowler) and solid hard to answer 4&5 drops (Thrun, Phantom Centaur, Thornling, and Deranged Hermit) , make midrange I think is unquestionable it's strongest archetype, it pairs well with black and white. Green based ramp in my experience is better than base green aggro.
That said green is a solid support color for aggro, it provides some insane 2 drops (goyf, Scavenging Ooze, and Mayor) and awesome multicolor cards (Bloodbraid, Kird ape, Loam lion, Nactal) that said I don't think that putting 2 power 1 drops in is in it's best interest. I think it overall lowers the power of an average green deck, as green aggro is a tertiary archetype in my cube. That said recent cards are forcing me to examine those ideas and it's possible post DKA that green aggro will be better than Ramp.
That said that raises the problem of then 4 of the 5 colors having aggro as their main archetype, and at least in my group the last supporting that archetype. There is such a thing as too much aggro, and I don't want the cube to turn into a high powered version of ZEN or M12 limited.
Reading all of this discussion makes me glad that green is badass in my cube.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
This is what I was thinking. Green gets drafted a lot in my cube, in combination with every other color (white most rarely) and once in a while as a mono deck. And we had a nearly monogreen deck win a draft once (blue splash for SSS and FoF). And RG aggro has been sweet!
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
eidolon's cube (unpowered)
LegendaryFerret's cube (powered)
Their cubes probably can give you the best advice.
Suggested Cuts/Additions
- Winter's Grasp -- if you're not supporting Green aggro, this card is probably a bit awkward.
+ Mayor of Avabruck -- this is the 3rd best green 2 drop, and that's saying something. Goes in aggro, midrange, and control/rock.
- Krosan Grip -- why would you run this Uktabi Orangutan... I know there is that very occasional opportunity that Split Second matters AND you happen to have this in hand, but otherwise having a 2/2 body is always relevant.
+ Uktabi Orangutan or even Nantuko Vigilante if you don't like reprints
- Oracle of Mul Daya - This sometimes works, and sometimes is just a waste. 4CMC cards shouldn't be inconsistent like that.
+ Wild Mongrel - If you haven't played with this card, it's probably hard to judge how well it plays
- Life from the Loam - unless your playgroup really plays around this card a lot, it's going to be last pick/sideboard material all the time
+ Genesis - this probably does more of what you want with your new ramp strategy (eg. eat up free mana and giving you an engine)
- Rampaging Baloths - this guy never seems to work out right
+ Kodama of the North Tree - this guy comes out a turn earlier and always seems to work out right.
Cards to watch for slightly lower power level/slow play along w/ suggested replacements
Worldly Tutor
Birthing Pod
Green's 2 drops are probably the strongest in the cube, and the fact that you are not running any of the Boas, Mongrel, or Mayor makes it unsurprising that green was getting run over.
My Cube Thread
I think that it's basically impossible to do this in cube. Give it a try.
I did make a rather stupid claim with the M12/ZEN comparison but I think the idea in general is something to keep an eye if WotC continues to print good aggro creatures at the rate they've been printing them with M12-DKA.
My Tribal cube
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Draw-go has been doing rather poorly in our playing group. Never really bad, but just too slow.
Control needs more help now then aggro in our cube. They keep printing great aggro cards, powerfull Walkers and high impact midrange cards. But where are the new Moats, the new counters? The only way is too adept for the control players. Embrace the powers of planes walkers, combine control with ramp, burn or combo.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
I actually don't think this style of deck has been good for a long time.
Shrug, I view cube as a casual format and that sort of deck seems like anti-fun. Also nowadays you'd probably have to work at it to make such a deck possible, or just not run any "can't be countered" or manland type cards.
I disagree.
When I draft "classic" control, I typically run around 7-1 on the night. The trick is only 1-2 high impact creatures, lots of sweepers (I run 3-5 in my 40) and your own manlands/"strip mines" and some ways to grind out advantage like planeswalkers, Academy Ruins, and lots of card draw. I actually find spot removal unnecessary, and only need a few counters to save for the bombs. Some fast mana power doesn't hurt either!;)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=385729
I think that this strategy is a very important magic element. And find it funny and skill-intensive to play with or against such decks.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
3rd? I hope your joking? I wouldn't put it in my top 10 Green 2 drops.
Lotus Cobra
Fauna Shaman
Boas 1 and 2
Wild Mongrel
Scavanging Ooze
Tarmogoyf
Rofellos
Sakura Tribe Elder
I rate every single one of these above the mayor.
The anthem Effect is cute but rarely relevant, I really don't see it flipping that often and even when it does, it has to live through that turn before it makes a wolf. No offense, but the card is weak on all fronts.
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MY LEGACY ALTERS
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Totally agreed!
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
We don't play it at 360, but I think it's a very powerful risk/reward card.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
This is true in this case
I like Mayor, but his day side has a bit too little to offer. In a deck with enough Humans, I'd play him. I think the playable werewolves for cube are the ones where the day side is ~1 coloured mana from playability or at least marginality. Wolfbitten Captive, Instigator Gang, Kruin Outlaw and Huntmaster are all about OK on the front sides, although I'd be very hesitant to run the latter three at 360. I can't comment on Reckless Waif as I have no experience with it although I know it has its fans on here. I wonder if a one mana version of the mayor's front side would be considered playable or not.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms: