I don't know about you, but it's seeming like with the printing of more and more planeswalkers, that my cube is becoming somewhat crowded with walkers.
While I love the flavor of planeswalkers, and they're everything the cube should be about IMO (big, splashy, fun cards), I worry about the sheer number of them and every deck ending up with 2-3 walkers (which IMO will make walkers less fun and interesting).
Have any of you been putting a limit to the number of planeswalkers in your respective cubes? For example, all three garruks I think are good enough to make my cube (630 cards) in terms of card quality - but it seems a bit excessive.
I've already excluded a large number of walkers from my cube, mostly multicolored ones, because they represent such insane card advantage. I also feel that while Garruk 2.0 is an amazing walker, his cost is slightly prohibitive. At this point I'd pretty much keep a cap at three per color and only multicolored ones that were really, really, really good. Like Sorin level good.
Currently, I play a total of 12 walkers and that number will increase to 13 come DKA. As long as I stay below 15 (or 1.5 walkers per player) I think I am OK, but as I said, others have no problem with a way higher count.
@wtwlf123: this is exactly what I run in multicolor
I don't feel the need to cap the number of PWs in my list, but I have no problem removing them. Playing with many planeswalkers really changes how matches of Magic plays out. I don't think there's a right number to have for each section. If you see multiple planeswalker.dec in a single draft or if you consistently see specific decks struggle which are more likely to be dead to a resolved PW on an empty board, then cut a few.
It's going to be a while before the concentration is as high for your cube as it is for small ones though. It makes sense that you don't have any desire to cap them at 600 yet.
I tend to cap cards by power level, not by type (I try to keep a rough creature/non-creature balance, but even that is flexible) which is why I expanded my equipment section when the new swords were printed. PWs are even more diverse than most card types, so I feel no reason to artificially keep their numbers down, as power creep will do that for me. A whole group of walkers are already teetering on the brink of being replaced (see discussion of cutting Sarkhan Vol for new GR dual facer).
I tend to cap cards by power level, not by type (I try to keep a rough creature/non-creature balance, but even that is flexible) which is why I expanded my equipment section when the new swords were printed. PWs are even more diverse than most card types, so I feel no reason to artificially keep their numbers down, as power creep will do that for me. A whole group of walkers are already teetering on the brink of being replaced (see discussion of cutting Sarkhan Vol for new GR dual facer).
This.
Planeswalkers must earn their spot in my cube just like any other card, and there are several that are a good card or two away from getting bumped. So, in short, I'm not worried. I think the era of planeswalker = autoinclude is beginning to go away, I hope the era of planeswalker = autocrazyhypeprice will go with it.
...but but given that it took us 5 years to reach that number, this doesn't look like an imminent problem.
I think you will probably get there sooner than you think. We're seeing 4 PWs per block on average with potentially more slated for base sets (after seeing 3 new PW's in M12). This time next year, I'd be very surprised if you weren't looking to start removing planeswalkers.
Quote from wtwlf123 »
It makes sense that you don't have any desire to cap them at 600 yet.
I haven't 'capped' my PWs, but I've certainly cut several of them. Not sure if that's the same thing or not.
Unfortunately, the hype behind planeswalkers doesn't seem to be going anywhere, especially as they continue to explore the design space around them (emblems, interacting with other walkers, e.g.). This means the excitement will stay high as well, which also means that the prices will do the same.
The only way that will die down is if they print quite a few stinkers in a row (think narrow ones like Nissa, too). I doubt that is going to happen. Also, the companies are obviously selling the Sorins at 60 each (100-150 for foil) or the price would have come down. As long as demand is high...etc. etc. etc.
Unfortunately, the hype behind planeswalkers doesn't seem to be going anywhere, especially as they continue to explore the design space around them (emblems, interacting with other walkers, e.g.). This means the excitement will stay high as well, which also means that the prices will do the same.
The only way that will die down is if they print quite a few stinkers in a row (think narrow ones like Nissa, too). I doubt that is going to happen. Also, the companies are obviously selling the Sorins at 60 each (100-150 for foil) or the price would have come down. As long as demand is high...etc. etc. etc.
-AA
Truth. There are also literally 0 reasons to not print chase PWs in every new set going forward. Good for [most] players and good for WotC.
Yup, very good for a collectible card game. As much as people complained about mythics (myself included), it hasn't done any harm to pack sales from what I can tell. The only thing it has hurt is my trade binder, trying to get foils for Cube!
I would actually like it if WotC introduced "Ultra Mythic". These cards should do the same as other mythic rares in the same set, but have special art and maybe special frame or special foiling. So these cards would be expensive collectibles that would allow players the wow-moment of opening a $300-400 card in their pack, without actually affecting the game or the rest of the economy around magic-cards.
They tried that with Planeshift, on the 3 legends, but it wasn't all that spectacular.
That said, I think the thrill of the hunt of opening packs is MUCH higher now. Didn't they just do a similar thing with Zendikar, however? Lost treasures, and all that...people opening moxes etc.
They tried that with Planeshift, on the 3 legends, but it wasn't all that spectacular.
That said, I think the thrill of the hunt of opening packs is MUCH higher now. Didn't they just do a similar thing with Zendikar, however? Lost treasures, and all that...people opening moxes etc.
My cube is 450+ and each color has 2 planeswalkers (except green, stupid T2 prices)
Ajani Goldmane
Elspeth Tirel
Jace Beleren
Tezzeret, the Seeker
Liliana Vess
Sorin Markov
Chandra the Firebrand
Koth of the Hammer
Garruk Wildspeaker
and as soon as DKA comes out hopefully my multicolor section will have 3:
Ajani Vengeant
Sarkhan Vol
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad.
That's about 2.5% of the cube being Planeswalkers. I feel like Walkers are supposed to be big and splashy but then again everything in the cube is supposed to be like that so I can see where it would be difficult to draw the line.
Bonda: I remember not caring at all about the Planeshift ones, because with the rare exception those cards didn't see any constructed play (I had a single Tahngarth in a deck once, and a single Ertai in another).
With Zendikar, we never got official information about the distribution odds, did we? I know that kept me from wanting to chase anything.
I think 16 is my ideal number for 360 right now. That's 2 per every 45 cards, or 2 'walkers per drafter on average. I'd start to worry about having too many at around 20 (2.5 'walkers per drafter) and I think my absolute cap would be 24 (which would mean a 'walker in EVERY pack, and THREE 'walkers per drafter on average). I wouldn't ever want more than that, really. Right now, I run 17 in my cube (after the DKA update) and I feel that's okay. I'd like to have one less, but I feel that 16-20 is an okay amount.
Walkers don't steal the show enough at the groups events to warrant ever limiting them. They come out and play here and there, but until I start seeing a 5cc planeswalker control deck destroy everyone 6-0 across the board 2-3 times in a row, I see no reason to mess with it.
Walkers don't steal the show enough at the groups events to warrant ever limiting them. They come out and play here and there, but until I start seeing a 5cc planeswalker control deck destroy everyone 6-0 across the board 2-3 times in a row, I see no reason to mess with it.
That's not going to happen in a 720 list for like another 5 years, lol. Once you have 48 planeswalkers in your cube we'll see what your attitude is then.
I tend to cap cards by power level, not by type (I try to keep a rough creature/non-creature balance, but even that is flexible) which is why I expanded my equipment section when the new swords were printed. PWs are even more diverse than most card types, so I feel no reason to artificially keep their numbers down, as power creep will do that for me. A whole group of walkers are already teetering on the brink of being replaced (see discussion of cutting Sarkhan Vol for new GR dual facer).
I don't think they need a cap per se, but I've definitely gotten to the point where if the decision is close between a PW and a non-PW I'm going with the non-PW.
I'd be happy with ~20 planeswalkers in a 360 cube. I think I run 17 too (same ones as wtwlf123, I believe). I think we want a bit more around here because we have lots of one and two drops to not care about your 4cc fog.
As long as most 'walkers cost 4 mana or more, there won't be a problem. If they start printing lots of powerful 3 cost 'walkers the total number would probably increase more, but I don't see that happening.
As long as most 'walkers cost 4 mana or more, there won't be a problem. If they start printing lots of powerful 3 cost 'walkers the total number would probably increase more, but I don't see that happening.
This is the best thing about them that will naturally keep them in check. We only dedicate so many slots to high cc spells in the cube, so there can really only ever be so many 'walkers.
While I love the flavor of planeswalkers, and they're everything the cube should be about IMO (big, splashy, fun cards), I worry about the sheer number of them and every deck ending up with 2-3 walkers (which IMO will make walkers less fun and interesting).
Have any of you been putting a limit to the number of planeswalkers in your respective cubes? For example, all three garruks I think are good enough to make my cube (630 cards) in terms of card quality - but it seems a bit excessive.
Thoughts?
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Personally, I try to not include too many walkers. So even though I think Elspeth Tirel, Jace, Memory Adept or Garruk, Primal Hunter are powerful enough for cube I don't play them.
Currently, I play a total of 12 walkers and that number will increase to 13 come DKA. As long as I stay below 15 (or 1.5 walkers per player) I think I am OK, but as I said, others have no problem with a way higher count.
@wtwlf123: this is exactly what I run in multicolor
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This.
Planeswalkers must earn their spot in my cube just like any other card, and there are several that are a good card or two away from getting bumped. So, in short, I'm not worried. I think the era of planeswalker = autoinclude is beginning to go away, I hope the era of planeswalker = autocrazyhypeprice will go with it.
I think you will probably get there sooner than you think. We're seeing 4 PWs per block on average with potentially more slated for base sets (after seeing 3 new PW's in M12). This time next year, I'd be very surprised if you weren't looking to start removing planeswalkers.
I haven't 'capped' my PWs, but I've certainly cut several of them. Not sure if that's the same thing or not.
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The only way that will die down is if they print quite a few stinkers in a row (think narrow ones like Nissa, too). I doubt that is going to happen. Also, the companies are obviously selling the Sorins at 60 each (100-150 for foil) or the price would have come down. As long as demand is high...etc. etc. etc.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
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-AA
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That said, I think the thrill of the hunt of opening packs is MUCH higher now. Didn't they just do a similar thing with Zendikar, however? Lost treasures, and all that...people opening moxes etc.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Yeah. And it worked on me in both instances.
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Ajani Goldmane
Elspeth Tirel
Jace Beleren
Tezzeret, the Seeker
Liliana Vess
Sorin Markov
Chandra the Firebrand
Koth of the Hammer
Garruk Wildspeaker
and as soon as DKA comes out hopefully my multicolor section will have 3:
Ajani Vengeant
Sarkhan Vol
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad.
That's about 2.5% of the cube being Planeswalkers. I feel like Walkers are supposed to be big and splashy but then again everything in the cube is supposed to be like that so I can see where it would be difficult to draw the line.
With Zendikar, we never got official information about the distribution odds, did we? I know that kept me from wanting to chase anything.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
That's not going to happen in a 720 list for like another 5 years, lol. Once you have 48 planeswalkers in your cube we'll see what your attitude is then.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I don't think they need a cap per se, but I've definitely gotten to the point where if the decision is close between a PW and a non-PW I'm going with the non-PW.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
This is the best thing about them that will naturally keep them in check. We only dedicate so many slots to high cc spells in the cube, so there can really only ever be so many 'walkers.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!