However, I am avoid most cards that cost 25$+, as well as "the power 9" and cards that I just find unfun.
Key cards not included: Mind twist, power 9, anything over 35$, the Swords, Umezawas jitte, Beta Dual lands, Sol ring, Balance, Land Tax.
2. Because the Red section is generally pretty cheap, I've been able to mimic his red section card for card. But the Blue section, many of the broken spells cost too much to be included.
3. The players in my play group are not very experienced in magic, but they are decent.
Problem
Forcing red agro has been almost a guaranteed win condition if there's only one person doing it.
So what I'm debating on is how I can either make agro weaker or control stronger. I am not willing to proxy or spend 30$+ on a card (yet).
What is generally the best way to go about making agro strategies relativly weaker while maintaining the most fun?
Ideas
1. Add in cards that functionally hose very agro strategies. (Very open to suggestions on how to do this.). Maybe increase the number of sweepers and life gain effects?
2. Increase the power level of the cube. (It seems that most of the power cards excluded are ones that benefit control and mid range over agro).
3. Reduce the number of 1/2 drops or burn spells in red and replace it with more utility cards/sweepers/archtype stuff.
4. Decrease the power level of the 1/2 drops and burn spells (replace lightning bolt with shock etc etc)
Questions
If you guys knew that hyper agro was the deck to beat in the cube and you were determined to go control or mid-range.
What kind of deck would you build to do so?
What properties would that deck have?
Red can be a more intuitive deck to draft so new players can have success with it. The best way to move players into other colors is to show them how to draft other decks, by building other decks.
There are cards that red has a hard time dealing with, maybe you don't run some of them? If we see your list we can help make suggestions.
Red can be a more intuitive deck to draft so new players can have success with it. The best way to move players into other colors is to show them how to draft other decks, by building other decks.
There are cards that red has a hard time dealing with, maybe you don't run some of them? If we see your list we can help make suggestions.
Thanks for the reply. Im thinking a lot of it has to do with the skill level of the group and inexperience with the cube in general (myself included)
It's possible I don't run the cards that red has trouble with though.
Could you list some the prime hosers of red?
Maybe like a top 5/10 list?
Im waiting until I get all the cards I want (still waiting on the mail) before I post the list.
Agree that you really don't need dedicated hosers. If this is only a problem when only one player goes into red, then you're either running very small drafts to run into this issue regularly, or else it should iron itself out through multiple people going into red to try to get the goods.
Honestly, the natural ecosystem of cube skews so far toward midrange and control that if you start running any significant number of aggro-hosers, you'll leave red aggro as a quasi-viable aggro deck and totally hose any other aggro deck out of existence.
As to your questions, if I knew that red aggro was a strong deck in your cube and everyone at the table was just refusing to draft it, I'd draft it all day long instead of fighting the rest of your players for durdle cards.
If red aggro was a strong deck in your cube and other players appeared to be fighting over it, then I'd just draft any solid control deck with the means to interact early.
If I were to stop being a jerk and accept the premise of your question, then I'd be looking for means to interact early, especially advantageously -- cheap walls that block a dude and then still require a burn spell, cheap instant-speed removal, anything that also says gain life on it. I might well eat up a bunch of the red instant-speed removal and go ?/R control or midrange, since small instant-speed burn interacts well against monored aggro and simultaneously robs them of some of their reach. But my point is that I'd only go this route on a dare, or for a bet or something.
What size are your drafts? That tends to make a big difference in how a cube plays.
The problem with the logic of "if red is too good, then a lot of people should try to draft red , which will balance out red".
Is a lot of people are playing the cube to build fun and viable decks.
Red requires the least thought of any archetype and makes the drafting process way more streamlined and simple.
I don't want something that takes away from interaction and creativeness to be the most powerful deck.
"Honestly, the natural ecosystem of cube skews so far toward midrange and control that if you start running any significant number of aggro-hosers, you'll leave red aggro as a quasi-viable aggro deck and totally hose any other aggro deck out of existence."
I have given agro a LOT of support in this cube, which might be part of the problem.
I guess am not looking to add a ton of hosers, but trying to understand how best to counter a hyper agro strategy given the set of cards in most cube. If I need to add a few cards to support this strategy than so be it.
Obviously I want a heavy red to be still viable, but I do not want it to be a top top tier deck, since it is one of the least interactive and simple decks to build.
Try to make midrange stronger. Midrange, being only a tad slower than aggro, can stabilize before aggro can push through, then seal the deal with the more expensive cards.
Also, a tad of walls, lifegain and sweeper probably won't hurt. Maybe include red sweepers and other red slowish cards, to make slow red also viable and create more contest over red burn spells and such?
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
I fear that we cannot give a really good answer without seeing your cube list, sorry
It depends on which quality control and midrange cards your budget limitations have forced out of your list. Cube balance is a delicate thing and without a list all this is just guessing in the dark.
The other three options are all valid. raising the budget limitiation (or go the proxy route) is a personal choice.
Of the options you proposed I really dislike the power lowering option. If something is too strong, make other options stronger. And as I said it is hard to discuss your red section or the control/midrange sections without actually seeing it.
If you are going off wtwlf's cube, here are some cards that I would recommend which are not in his list, and which might help you out a bit without being dedicated red hosers:
I think that the real problem that is making your red too dominant is that your draft sizes are small. It is hard for the format to shake out well when the number of players is less than the number of colors -- it makes it very easy to assemble redundancy.
Has anyone on this forum come up with a real solution for 'too small' drafts?
FWIW, I strongly disagree with the assertion that a sweet red deck takes less effort or know-how to draft, build, and play than other archetype X. It is probably true that a so-so red deck very easily trounces a so-so deck that just wants to make land drops and draw cards until it drops sweet 6-mana finishers. But I can't tell you how many 'sweet' monored decks fold because they can't reliably curve out or don't sequence their plays for optimal damage.
There really is only so much we can do to help with your specific situation without knowing your specific list. I would say that building a cube starting from your philosophy and then templating off of a very focused, powered cube is probably not the best template to be working from.
But basically, build up midrange. You can build it up even at the expense of the top end of control decks, because those cards are currently a trap in the present metagame anyway.
One of the deep dark secrets of Cube, in my opinion, is that finisher quality is the big concern for control decks, not finisher quantity. You can keep very few of these sweet cards so that people aren't taking a million of them, but just make sure that they are the creme de la creme. My best control decks tend to have 2-3 5+ mana finishers, and are mostly cheap ways of interacting and 3- and 4-mana value cards.
How many drafts has your group done with the cube thus far? How novice are the novices in your group? Just want to make sure this isn't primarily a learning curve issue also before having your make a radical change to your cube.
You shouldn't add in hosers. Make other colors better, don't intentionally make one color worse. Mono-red shouldn't be dominating anything in a balanced cube.
Some background:
1. I have tried to emulate most of the cards on wtwlf123's cube.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=198041
However, I am avoid most cards that cost 25$+, as well as "the power 9" and cards that I just find unfun.
Key cards not included: Mind twist, power 9, anything over 35$, the Swords, Umezawas jitte, Beta Dual lands, Sol ring, Balance, Land Tax.
2. Because the Red section is generally pretty cheap, I've been able to mimic his red section card for card. But the Blue section, many of the broken spells cost too much to be included.
3. The players in my play group are not very experienced in magic, but they are decent.
Problem
Forcing red agro has been almost a guaranteed win condition if there's only one person doing it.
So what I'm debating on is how I can either make agro weaker or control stronger. I am not willing to proxy or spend 30$+ on a card (yet).
What is generally the best way to go about making agro strategies relativly weaker while maintaining the most fun?
Ideas
1. Add in cards that functionally hose very agro strategies. (Very open to suggestions on how to do this.). Maybe increase the number of sweepers and life gain effects?
2. Increase the power level of the cube. (It seems that most of the power cards excluded are ones that benefit control and mid range over agro).
3. Reduce the number of 1/2 drops or burn spells in red and replace it with more utility cards/sweepers/archtype stuff.
4. Decrease the power level of the 1/2 drops and burn spells (replace lightning bolt with shock etc etc)
Questions
If you guys knew that hyper agro was the deck to beat in the cube and you were determined to go control or mid-range.
What kind of deck would you build to do so?
What properties would that deck have?
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
There are cards that red has a hard time dealing with, maybe you don't run some of them? If we see your list we can help make suggestions.
Thanks for the reply. Im thinking a lot of it has to do with the skill level of the group and inexperience with the cube in general (myself included)
It's possible I don't run the cards that red has trouble with though.
Could you list some the prime hosers of red?
Maybe like a top 5/10 list?
Im waiting until I get all the cards I want (still waiting on the mail) before I post the list.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Honestly, the natural ecosystem of cube skews so far toward midrange and control that if you start running any significant number of aggro-hosers, you'll leave red aggro as a quasi-viable aggro deck and totally hose any other aggro deck out of existence.
As to your questions, if I knew that red aggro was a strong deck in your cube and everyone at the table was just refusing to draft it, I'd draft it all day long instead of fighting the rest of your players for durdle cards.
If red aggro was a strong deck in your cube and other players appeared to be fighting over it, then I'd just draft any solid control deck with the means to interact early.
If I were to stop being a jerk and accept the premise of your question, then I'd be looking for means to interact early, especially advantageously -- cheap walls that block a dude and then still require a burn spell, cheap instant-speed removal, anything that also says gain life on it. I might well eat up a bunch of the red instant-speed removal and go ?/R control or midrange, since small instant-speed burn interacts well against monored aggro and simultaneously robs them of some of their reach. But my point is that I'd only go this route on a dare, or for a bet or something.
What size are your drafts? That tends to make a big difference in how a cube plays.
The problem with the logic of "if red is too good, then a lot of people should try to draft red , which will balance out red".
Is a lot of people are playing the cube to build fun and viable decks.
Red requires the least thought of any archetype and makes the drafting process way more streamlined and simple.
I don't want something that takes away from interaction and creativeness to be the most powerful deck.
"Honestly, the natural ecosystem of cube skews so far toward midrange and control that if you start running any significant number of aggro-hosers, you'll leave red aggro as a quasi-viable aggro deck and totally hose any other aggro deck out of existence."
I have given agro a LOT of support in this cube, which might be part of the problem.
I guess am not looking to add a ton of hosers, but trying to understand how best to counter a hyper agro strategy given the set of cards in most cube. If I need to add a few cards to support this strategy than so be it.
Obviously I want a heavy red to be still viable, but I do not want it to be a top top tier deck, since it is one of the least interactive and simple decks to build.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Also, a tad of walls, lifegain and sweeper probably won't hurt. Maybe include red sweepers and other red slowish cards, to make slow red also viable and create more contest over red burn spells and such?
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
It depends on which quality control and midrange cards your budget limitations have forced out of your list. Cube balance is a delicate thing and without a list all this is just guessing in the dark.
The other three options are all valid. raising the budget limitiation (or go the proxy route) is a personal choice.
Of the options you proposed I really dislike the power lowering option. If something is too strong, make other options stronger. And as I said it is hard to discuss your red section or the control/midrange sections without actually seeing it.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Signets, all 10
Obstinate Baloth
Arbor Elf
Wall of Denial
Mimic Vat
Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Frost Titan
Consecrated Sphinx
Condescend
Some are obvious, some are to fill in those blue gaps that you might have, and some are to simply make other non-red archetypes more attractive.
Has anyone on this forum come up with a real solution for 'too small' drafts?
FWIW, I strongly disagree with the assertion that a sweet red deck takes less effort or know-how to draft, build, and play than other archetype X. It is probably true that a so-so red deck very easily trounces a so-so deck that just wants to make land drops and draw cards until it drops sweet 6-mana finishers. But I can't tell you how many 'sweet' monored decks fold because they can't reliably curve out or don't sequence their plays for optimal damage.
There really is only so much we can do to help with your specific situation without knowing your specific list. I would say that building a cube starting from your philosophy and then templating off of a very focused, powered cube is probably not the best template to be working from.
But basically, build up midrange. You can build it up even at the expense of the top end of control decks, because those cards are currently a trap in the present metagame anyway.
One of the deep dark secrets of Cube, in my opinion, is that finisher quality is the big concern for control decks, not finisher quantity. You can keep very few of these sweet cards so that people aren't taking a million of them, but just make sure that they are the creme de la creme. My best control decks tend to have 2-3 5+ mana finishers, and are mostly cheap ways of interacting and 3- and 4-mana value cards.
How many drafts has your group done with the cube thus far? How novice are the novices in your group? Just want to make sure this isn't primarily a learning curve issue also before having your make a radical change to your cube.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!