If the timing is right to play Jace, there's almost no better card available. But if the timing is anything less than perfect, he compares unfavorably to other options.
I agree with this. There are times where the board state is so awful JMA isn't going to help you at all whereas Consecrated Sphinx or insert any other blue finisher would help you. But if you even manage to stabilize and protect Jace for two activations you're probably going to win.
Nothing in this game is degenerate or completely dominant. They haven't banned anything in standard in a long, long time. Hell they should have banned affinity right away, but they didn't until boxed sales collapsed too. Hasbro had to come in and fire people.
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If the timing is right to play Jace, there's almost no better card available. But if the timing is anything less than perfect, he compares unfavorably to other options.
This is correct, and the same can be said for Armageddon. The real question is, how often is the timing right, and how many games is he winning you (where say Morphling would have lost you) versus losing you (where say Morphling would have won).
I'm surprised to see anyone cut him for non fun reasons. He is even an okay defensive card, usually representing a 5 cost cycling + fog.
Every other finisher has the option of helping you not lose instead of just helping you win. Jace is worthless on the defense - the fog effect is not guaranteed as they can just ignore him while they're killing you. I think this is a considerable drawback, IMO not worth the added speed factor Jace has going for him compared with other top tier blue finishers.
This is correct, and the same can be said for Armageddon. The real question is, how often is the timing right, and how many games is he winning you (where say Morphling would have lost you) versus losing you (where say Morphling would have won).
I'm surprised to see anyone cut him for non fun reasons. He is even an okay defensive card, usually representing a 5 cost cycling + fog.
Armageddon is different in that it goes in aggro where you naturally have the upper hand by the time it's ready to cast it. No additional setup is required. Jace goes into decks that have to actively stabilize before it can resolve, and put effort into creating a timing that's advantageous.
Morphling pulls me out of situations that are even or when I'm behind. And by being able to both attack and block, Morphling is clutch in the most important game states: the close ones. Morphling has a lower auto-win percentage on its own, but it contributes to a greater percentage of wins.
Armageddon is different in that it goes in aggro where you naturally have the upper hand by the time it's ready to cast it. No additional setup is required. Jace goes into decks that have to actively stabilize before it can resolve, and put effort into creating a timing that's advantageous.
I would argue that it is a control decks job to reasonably stabalize by turn five (or five mana) as much as it is an aggro decks job to have board advantage by turn four.
I would argue that it is a control decks job to reasonably stabalize by turn five (or five mana) as much as it is an aggro decks job to have board advantage by turn four.
It really depends on what kind of control deck you're playing. If you're playing one that's going to cantrip, mana rock, wrath, then ya. Trying to be totally stable by T5 is a priority. But a lot of control decks like to use their creatures/win-cons as part of their stabilization plan, and you can't use Jace to do this. Part of the role of the finishers in the cube is to help secure you a stable board condition to win with. I don't have to wait until a post-wrath completely secured board to run out my Keiga or Grave Titan.
Every aggro deck, on the other hand, is on the threat, threat, threat, 'geddon plan.
I certainly wouldn't go so far as to NOT play a Cube with friends because of cards that I choose not to run; I think that's a bit extreme. I can just choose not to play them in the Cube I play with the most: mine.
I think that having a playable mill spell is actually really cool in a cube environment, as damage is normally the only way of winning. Jace being banned for power reasons is a bit strange, it's not an insane card. It'll win the game a lot of the time when you land it on a stabilised board, but there's quite a lot of interaction really - the other player has to try to destroy jace - if they do, they get a pretty big advantage because jace does nothing if he only mills once.
You don't even have to stabalize before you play this card; if you can untap with him, you are almost assuredly going to win that game, since you are playing control and can stall games anyways. Milling your oppt. for 20 cards by T6 leaves them with approx. 7 cards in library assuming they've done nothing to draw cards. If you stall the game before dropping him or after T6 dropping him, it only increases your chances.
T4 Wrath T5 Jace is an insane line of play, But even with one blocker, dropping Jace into a board where you may not have the advantage is still quite powerful. I don't think he's as inconsistent as you all seem to think; just untap with him. That's not that difficult in a control deck.
Also, U/X decks (Such as the UG tempo deck) LOVE this card, since they can easily get a board advantage.
It's very understandable if you don't want to run him because you dislike mill as a linear strategy. But he's just not as powerful as many other cards in cube.
When he hits the board you win most often. But that doesn't mean he's more oppressive than many other cube cards imo. Jitte for instance have a much bigger win-percentage than this guy and that's a card to 2 mana...
It's very understandable if you don't want to run him because you dislike mill as a linear strategy. But he's just not as powerful as many other cards in cube.
When he hits the board you win most often. But that doesn't mean he's more oppressive than many other cube cards imo. Jitte for instance have a much bigger win-percentage than this guy and that's a card to 2 mana...
I really disagree, I don't think giving blue a 5/5 infect, hasty, unblockable threat for 3UU is balanced in a limited format, even one as powerful as cube.
an Infect guy might not have been the best comparison, but with two turns you essentially give your opponent ~6 cards (assuming no extra cards drawn) with which to kill you, that is not the easiest thing to do.
Seriously, most 5-cc cards in cube should win the game most of the time they hit the board. Living Death often wins the turn you cast it or the turn after. Bribery often wins the turn after you cast it. If Baneslayer Angel lives to get in two hits, you will probably win. Jace 3.0 does win pretty often when he hits the board. The downside is that if he dies the turn after you play him, you accomplished close to nothing. He's powerful but not broken. There are at least two dozen cards I'd pick over him p1p1, including stuff that costs less mana and is more likely to win me the game: Recurring Nightmare, Balance, Fact of Fiction, Sulfuric Vortex, etc.
Am I the only one that thinks he needs three activations in order to win? When I have 6-7 cards left in my library, that's 6-7 turns after the Jace resolved before I'm dead. Which is an eternity in the cube.
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The card is perfectly fine:If a blue control deck manage to survive until the lategame, stabilizes the board, plays their fragile but expensive finisher and protects it over 2-3 turns they simply deserve to win.
Agree completely. I cut him because he wasn't as flexible as my other win-cons. Not because he was too good. He may come back some time in the future too, who knows. I don't cut cards for being too broken, and if you play cards like Moat, Mint Twist, Armageddon(s), Jitte, Nightmare, Tinker, Library, Sol Ring and others ...Jace is no more oppressive than any of the top tier cube cards. In fact, I think he's significantly less so, seeings as how he's a 5-mana planeswalker that can simply be attacked to death if the board is less than perfect.
Am I the only one that thinks he needs three activations in order to win? When I have 6-7 cards left in my library, that's 6-7 turns after the Jace resolved before I'm dead. Which is an eternity in the cube.
THANK YOU. This is especially important, because most of the time the opponent killed Jace via superior board position, so even a few more turns is a big deal.
If you consider Jace to be unfun (and you cut cards for being unfun) by all means, cut him. If you consider him to be overpowered, come cube with me and pass me all the goodness you take him over.
Srsly a card draw spell like Fact of Fiction over Jace? For me there are close to no cards I would pick over Memory Adept p1p1.
Might I suggest playing a few more thousand cube games, and then reconsidering this ludicrous (being kind here) statement. We live, breathe, and eat cube here, and while we disagree on many things, I have never even heard anyone suggest that Jace MA is a top three blue card, let alone the best card in cube.
In my opinion, cubes where Memory Adept is auto-winning every game it resolves in are just designed horribly...
This. Jace is pretty good at sealing up games. And I think there's plenty of ways to beat him. I beat him plenty of times. If it's not happening in any cube, I think Jace isn't a problem, but the way the cube is design.
Honestly, Thundermaw Hellkite has been killing faster than Jace did. They've almost always taken far more than 5 damage by T5, and they can't attack my dragon to death.
Jace, Memory Adept is powerful, but not too powerful. I can only point to all the explanations above and say: A 5-drop that needs to remain unmolested for at least two - and often even three - turns just isn't broken in cube.
However, he is the most boring planeswalker so far. He basically has only a single ability that gets used every turn... and it doesn't even affect the board or the game state in any interesting way. Boooooring. I cut him when Tamiyo, the Moon Sage came around. She is almost as good and much more interesting. I also run Tezzeret the Seeker over Jace 3. Sure, he is much narrower, but also much more interesting. And I don't have room for three3UU planeswalkers.
In the end, I can totally see cutting him if you don't like him, but claiming that you do so because he is too powerful is just wrong.
In my opinion cubes with Memory Adept are just a designed horribly so i prefer not to dedicate time for something that might turn out to make me angry in the end.
A whole cube is designed horribly because it includes one controversial card?
In my opinion cubes with Memory Adept are just a designed horribly so i prefer not to dedicate time for something that might turn out to make me angry in the end.
Wtwlf took the words out of my fingers: If Jace 3.0 is autowinning every time he hits the board, the problem is with the cube (and/or players) and not the card. I just don't have the same problem with him in my cube.
Srsly a card draw spell like Fact of Fiction over Jace? For me there are close to no cards I would pick over Memory Adept p1p1. The 2 drafts i picked him pack 1 pick 1 I won the draft easily and it was no fun at all to win the matches with him. Just yesterday I died horribly to him and went here to hammer in my frustration in this forum :D. Really no offense there, guys.
No offense taken (except for the part where you say my cube--and the cubes of quite a few members of this forum--is horribly designed). But, yes I'll take FoF over Jace 3.0. I didn't used to, but after gaining experience with the card I now think his killing ability is overrated. I'd say about a third of the time he gets one activation in and then dies or is otherwise dealt with. I'd much rather take what is likely the 2nd most broken draw spell in the entire game--a card that is also easy to splash. If you take Jace 3.0 p1p1 over everything else, I hope I get to sit next you in cube draft. I'll gladly scoop up the Sol Ring, LoA, Jitte, Time Walk, Balance, Bitterblossom, FoF, or Survival you just passed.
Jitte doesn't fit as a comparison imho; red, green and white have tons of removal for it and you need a couple of turns to build up counters. For Jace it is like others said: untap with him and you will most likely win, that's just too good of a planeswalker in limited if you ask me.
And I am 100% sure that Jitte has won more games in my cube than Jace 3.0 has, even if red, green, and white have good removal for it. You know what's good removal for Jace 3.0? An attack phase. And I'm much more likely to run into an attack phase than a Disenchant. No offense.
Jace, Memory Adept is powerful, but not too powerful. I can only point to all the explanations above and say: A 5-drop that needs to remain unmolested for at least two - and often even three - turns just isn't broken in cube.
However, he is the most boring planeswalker so far. He basically has only a single ability that gets used every turn... and it doesn't even affect the board or the game state in any interesting way. Boooooring. I cut him when Tamiyo, the Moon Sage came around. She is almost as good and much more interesting. I also run Tezzeret the Seeker over Jace 3. Sure, he is much narrower, but also much more interesting. And I don't have room for three 3UU planeswalkers.
Yup. This pretty much sums it up perfectly. He's powerful in the right situations, but he was ultimately too one-dimensional. The other 5cc blue planeswalkers just have a more interesting impact on the game.
Jace is ultimately an extremely powerful but narrow finisher. He is nowhere near autowin against any opponent more competent than a goldfish and with a hand equal to or better than a Hank Aaron baseball card, Magikarp and a four of clubs. He kills extremely fast, but can be attacked to death unlke other finishers. He's in the top tier of blue finishers, but has his disadvantages, just like every other blue finisher. He's worse in the aggro matchup and better in the midrange/control matchup, for example, than some of the other blue finishers. There's nothing special, broken, imbalanced, or overpowered about him. Most cards we use aren't intended primarily for limited formats. It makes no difference. He's not the best card ever, he's not broken (why would it even matter if he was? We run P9 for heaven's sake), but he's plenty good enough to run if your group likes him. Which is the same metric that we use for every other card in our cubes, by the way.
I agree with this. There are times where the board state is so awful JMA isn't going to help you at all whereas Consecrated Sphinx or insert any other blue finisher would help you. But if you even manage to stabilize and protect Jace for two activations you're probably going to win.
With that said, he's cut.
Who's eating crow?
This is correct, and the same can be said for Armageddon. The real question is, how often is the timing right, and how many games is he winning you (where say Morphling would have lost you) versus losing you (where say Morphling would have won).
I'm surprised to see anyone cut him for non fun reasons. He is even an okay defensive card, usually representing a 5 cost cycling + fog.
Armageddon is different in that it goes in aggro where you naturally have the upper hand by the time it's ready to cast it. No additional setup is required. Jace goes into decks that have to actively stabilize before it can resolve, and put effort into creating a timing that's advantageous.
Morphling pulls me out of situations that are even or when I'm behind. And by being able to both attack and block, Morphling is clutch in the most important game states: the close ones. Morphling has a lower auto-win percentage on its own, but it contributes to a greater percentage of wins.
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I would argue that it is a control decks job to reasonably stabalize by turn five (or five mana) as much as it is an aggro decks job to have board advantage by turn four.
It really depends on what kind of control deck you're playing. If you're playing one that's going to cantrip, mana rock, wrath, then ya. Trying to be totally stable by T5 is a priority. But a lot of control decks like to use their creatures/win-cons as part of their stabilization plan, and you can't use Jace to do this. Part of the role of the finishers in the cube is to help secure you a stable board condition to win with. I don't have to wait until a post-wrath completely secured board to run out my Keiga or Grave Titan.
Every aggro deck, on the other hand, is on the threat, threat, threat, 'geddon plan.
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T4 Wrath T5 Jace is an insane line of play, But even with one blocker, dropping Jace into a board where you may not have the advantage is still quite powerful. I don't think he's as inconsistent as you all seem to think; just untap with him. That's not that difficult in a control deck.
Also, U/X decks (Such as the UG tempo deck) LOVE this card, since they can easily get a board advantage.
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When he hits the board you win most often. But that doesn't mean he's more oppressive than many other cube cards imo. Jitte for instance have a much bigger win-percentage than this guy and that's a card to 2 mana...
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I really disagree, I don't think giving blue a 5/5 infect, hasty, unblockable threat for 3UU is balanced in a limited format, even one as powerful as cube.
an Infect guy might not have been the best comparison, but with two turns you essentially give your opponent ~6 cards (assuming no extra cards drawn) with which to kill you, that is not the easiest thing to do.
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Agree completely. I cut him because he wasn't as flexible as my other win-cons. Not because he was too good. He may come back some time in the future too, who knows. I don't cut cards for being too broken, and if you play cards like Moat, Mint Twist, Armageddon(s), Jitte, Nightmare, Tinker, Library, Sol Ring and others ...Jace is no more oppressive than any of the top tier cube cards. In fact, I think he's significantly less so, seeings as how he's a 5-mana planeswalker that can simply be attacked to death if the board is less than perfect.
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THANK YOU. This is especially important, because most of the time the opponent killed Jace via superior board position, so even a few more turns is a big deal.
If you consider Jace to be unfun (and you cut cards for being unfun) by all means, cut him. If you consider him to be overpowered, come cube with me and pass me all the goodness you take him over.
Might I suggest playing a few more thousand cube games, and then reconsidering this ludicrous (being kind here) statement. We live, breathe, and eat cube here, and while we disagree on many things, I have never even heard anyone suggest that Jace MA is a top three blue card, let alone the best card in cube.
In my opinion, cubes where Memory Adept is auto-winning every game it resolves in are just designed horribly...
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This. Jace is pretty good at sealing up games. And I think there's plenty of ways to beat him. I beat him plenty of times. If it's not happening in any cube, I think Jace isn't a problem, but the way the cube is design.
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However, he is the most boring planeswalker so far. He basically has only a single ability that gets used every turn... and it doesn't even affect the board or the game state in any interesting way. Boooooring. I cut him when Tamiyo, the Moon Sage came around. She is almost as good and much more interesting. I also run Tezzeret the Seeker over Jace 3. Sure, he is much narrower, but also much more interesting. And I don't have room for three 3UU planeswalkers.
In the end, I can totally see cutting him if you don't like him, but claiming that you do so because he is too powerful is just wrong.
A whole cube is designed horribly because it includes one controversial card?
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Wtwlf took the words out of my fingers: If Jace 3.0 is autowinning every time he hits the board, the problem is with the cube (and/or players) and not the card. I just don't have the same problem with him in my cube.
No offense taken (except for the part where you say my cube--and the cubes of quite a few members of this forum--is horribly designed). But, yes I'll take FoF over Jace 3.0. I didn't used to, but after gaining experience with the card I now think his killing ability is overrated. I'd say about a third of the time he gets one activation in and then dies or is otherwise dealt with. I'd much rather take what is likely the 2nd most broken draw spell in the entire game--a card that is also easy to splash. If you take Jace 3.0 p1p1 over everything else, I hope I get to sit next you in cube draft. I'll gladly scoop up the Sol Ring, LoA, Jitte, Time Walk, Balance, Bitterblossom, FoF, or Survival you just passed.
And I am 100% sure that Jitte has won more games in my cube than Jace 3.0 has, even if red, green, and white have good removal for it. You know what's good removal for Jace 3.0? An attack phase. And I'm much more likely to run into an attack phase than a Disenchant. No offense.
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Yup. This pretty much sums it up perfectly. He's powerful in the right situations, but he was ultimately too one-dimensional. The other 5cc blue planeswalkers just have a more interesting impact on the game.
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Jace is ultimately an extremely powerful but narrow finisher. He is nowhere near autowin against any opponent more competent than a goldfish and with a hand equal to or better than a Hank Aaron baseball card, Magikarp and a four of clubs. He kills extremely fast, but can be attacked to death unlke other finishers. He's in the top tier of blue finishers, but has his disadvantages, just like every other blue finisher. He's worse in the aggro matchup and better in the midrange/control matchup, for example, than some of the other blue finishers. There's nothing special, broken, imbalanced, or overpowered about him. Most cards we use aren't intended primarily for limited formats. It makes no difference. He's not the best card ever, he's not broken (why would it even matter if he was? We run P9 for heaven's sake), but he's plenty good enough to run if your group likes him. Which is the same metric that we use for every other card in our cubes, by the way.
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