I'd disagree, and point to Vintage as an example of how every deck wants Moxen but not Sol Ring.
The two aren't comparable, the formats are vastly different. Standard might much prefer Sol Ring to Moxen if given the chance, but that has no impact on power-level within the cube. Sol Ring is much more powerful in EDH as well (even though Moxes are banned), but again, that is entirely different.
Just because every deck wants moxen doesn't mean they are more powerful in Vintage either. Mishra's Workshop decks use both Moxen and Sol Ring, but would much rather have Sol Ring in their opener.
Yeah, I'm going to stop here before I start rambling about other things...
The two aren't comparable, the formats are vastly different. Standard might much prefer Sol Ring to Moxen if given the chance, but that has no impact on power-level within the cube. Sol Ring is much more powerful in EDH as well (even though Moxes are banned), but again, that is entirely different.
Just because every deck wants moxen doesn't mean they are more powerful in Vintage either. Mishra's Workshop decks use both Moxen and Sol Ring, but would much rather have Sol Ring in their opener.
Yeah, I'm going to stop here before I start rambling about other things...
No, Standard would much rather have moxen, especially right now. Being able to cast Delver + Ponder on turn one far outweighs the ability to cast Sol Ring and nothing turn 1. EDH is also a weird format where it's hard to make a true evaluation of both cards as one is banned and the other isn't, obviously moxen are banned as a price issue and not a power issue in that format, but the format also tends to be more durdley than other formats so of course Sol Ring will be the fan favorite. However, this is not exactly relevant as many of the top tier EDH decks don't care about Sol Ring but would rather prefer other fast mana sources, such as Arcum Dagson (A common "kill on sight" general) would rather have a mana Myr than a Sol Ring, but isn't opposed to Sol Ring either.
As someone who played Stax way back when, and owned power, I can easily state that Stax isn't an example in your favor. It's a deck that is very focused and might as well be Dredge in terms of how much it deviates from the format norm... More so, the reason the deck exists isn't because of Sol Ring but because of Shop, Moxen, Sol Ring, Lotus, etc working in combination to assure certain things. Honestly, while Sol Ring is the preferred play in Stax, there's nothing wrong with going T1 Land+Mox into Sphere.
I feel like people are too caught up on Sol Ring, it's a fantastic card, don't get me wrong, but the mentality around it is such these days that more drafts are probably skewed in disfavor of the Sol Ring player than in favor of them because that feeling of euphoria clouds their judgement on future picks.
Cool, and I won't fault you for that. Though you should recognize that your broken scenario for Sol Ring is revolving around having it in your opening 7, along with a relevant play that feeds off of it. Getting the Sol Ring alone is an 18.97% chance in your opening 7, and if you play three rounds of six games you'll see it 1.18 times in your opening hand... At three rounds and nine games you'll see it 1.7 times in your opening hand. That's also not accounting for potential issues of keeping sketchy hands or drafting awkwardly because you have a Sol Ring, nor the potential of Sol Ring to be a mana dork when your best turn 2 play off of it is something like Lingering Souls.
Moxen and Mana Crypt offer other players some more fast mana, but they also lead to the higher chance of the Sol Ring deck being a thing where otherwise it might be too undependable. More so, the probability of Sol Ring showing up once is much lesser than multiple forms of fast mana showing up in a draft. Though that being said, Moxens might show up at some point, though mostly as a special event type of thing where they hang out for a certain amount of drafts and then cycle out again.
But again, the Moxen are coloured sources that go into any deck. They are essentially a strictly better basic land that in my opinion is stronger than Sol Ring in a more general case, where Sol Ring can be stronger in a more specific case.
Elesh Norn is a house and I love her beauty, but really she's not a card that wins quickly without support, and is vulnerable to a lot of removal. I'd often times first pick her but she's very passable, whereas I wouldn't pass Titans. Generally decks shouldn't have a problem winning out from Elesh Norn if they are ahead already, unless something went terribly wrong.
Sundering Titan is a card I really enjoy, but his power really requires to be built around. I know he's one of my favorite reanimator targets, especially when I already have a Welder in the deck, but he can still fail given the situation... And usually requires at least some loss on your side by one land if not more. The fixing is also weaker so mana bases tend to be tighter.
Balance, well it's one of the most misplayed cards out there. Sure it's great, and often times it does what you want it to do, but often times it's not very one sided. I've had those games where I got Greater Gorgadon and forced my opponent to sacrifice all their lands and creatures while facing down a 9/7 haste dude that either came into play after the Balance or the turn after, but generally Balance results in you killing X amount of creatures by discarding X amount of cards or sacrificing X lands, it's a very good Firestorm in that regard, but it's not exactly all of those cards you mentioned. Balance is also balanced by the absence of moxens so that mana is more land dependent and as such you'll usually get less of an Armageddon effect from it then you'd like.
As for the White and Green thing... Well, I like green being a utility colour, it has all the goodies of such, and White has some rather powerful big guys that also double as utility creatures. Sure Yosie and my boo Elesh Norn are high end drops, but Eternal Dragon and Exalted Angel aren't exactly six drops as they serve other purposes while waiting to be played.
I wouldn't say it's just my play group, I've used my cube with various groups of different mentalities and so far the results have been the same. Sure it's anecdotal evidence, but rarely have I seen the deck with Sol Ring being the dominant deck in a draft with my cube.
Also, if I'm not particularly coherent in this post, I apologize as I haven't slept enough and have had a couple of drinks so my ability to string together long trains of thought isn't exactly optimal.
Sol Ring doesn't have to be in the opening 7 to be good. If it's my first or second draw it's still going to be powerful. This in stark contrast to the ABU Moxes where if they're not in your opening hand their value severely diminishes and especially midgame where it is merely a spell land drop. I also wouldn't say ABU Moxes go in every deck either. The comparisons to Vintage are also off base considering you're comparing a constructed format with a limited singleton environment.
Before we discuss this any further what do you think the single most powerful card in your cube is?
Nothing in this game is degenerate or completely dominant. They haven't banned anything in standard in a long, long time. Hell they should have banned affinity right away, but they didn't until boxed sales collapsed too. Hasbro had to come in and fire people.
I'll enjoy watching all the whiners eat crow monday.
My point was you can't compare Vintage to Cube and have anyone take you seriously. I don't care about any of the other points you made because not only are they not relevant to the discussion, but they're wrong or contradictory. Example:
Before we discuss this any further what do you think the single most powerful card in your cube is?
Jitte. I'll take it over any card in the cube for a few reasons.
1) It's colorless, which is a huge selling-point as you can more easily feel out what aggressive cards are going to be sent to you.
2) It works in multiple draft archetypes (aggro and mid-range). Cards that only work in one archetype are worse IMO because you can get cut out of that archetype. It's hard to get cut from both aggro AND mid-range. I've occasionally had the control deck that plays Jitte as well.
3) You're happy to have it in your hand at any point in the game. Sol Ring and Black Lotus aren't amazing unless they're in your opener (although arguably they are much better than Jitte when they are in your opener). The fact that Jitte is still an amazing topdeck on turn 10 as well as being awesome in your opener is a testament to it's power.
4) It's versatile. It gains you life, kills creatures, makes combat math ridiculously messy, and pushes through damage.
5) It's powerful. Any single mode of Jitte is very powerful, but adding all three of them together gives you one of the most powerful magic cards of all time.
I think the six strongest cards in my cube are Jitte, Ancestral Recall, Sol Ring, Mana Drain, Time Walk, and Library. Most of my playgroup agrees with this, although their order is different. I think Jitte, Ancestral, and Sol Ring are miles above Drain, Time Walk, and Library.
Sol Ring doesn't have to be in the opening 7 to be good. If it's my first or second draw it's still going to be powerful. This in stark contrast to the ABU Moxes where if they're not in your opening hand their value severely diminishes and especially midgame where it is merely a spell land drop. I also wouldn't say ABU Moxes go in every deck either. The comparisons to Vintage are also off base considering you're comparing a constructed format with a limited singleton environment.
Before we discuss this any further what do you think the single most powerful card in your cube is?
On the second draw you're only getting to around 25% chance of seeing it in a 40 card deck. That's good but it's still not fantastic, and remember each turn that goes by without you drawing it, Sol Rings power is decreasing and rapidly. On your ninth draw you have a 50.25% chance of getting it, that's including the opening 7... Which means you've seen 16 out of 40 cards. ABU Moxen generate coloured mana and if you have on colour moxen you're playing them as they are generally strictly better than a land drop. I'm sure if we did the math there would be a point where Moxen are equal to Sol Ring beyond the first two turns in terms of usefulness and power. As for comparing Vintage to Cube, both formats include the history of magic and both are very singleton in nature. There's more variance in cube, but there's also enough consistency to create certain similarities and the reduced deck size also yields to such.
While some people would mention creatures, and others Sol Ring, I have to say Jitte is probably the strongest. It's a card that can make a somewhat dopey deck into a serious one and is far more likely to win a game for you than any creature or Sol Ring.
@Blimpy: Stax isn't an example in your favor not because Sol Ring isn't great in it, but because it's a unique strategy that depends on a different dynamic than what my cube is based on. In other words, Oxidize was a house in the Mirrodin meta but probably wouldn't be relevant in Lorwyn...
I think in basically any scenario where I don't specifically need two colored mana, I would prefer Sol Ring to the Moxen. That's on any turn at any point in the game. Sol Ring will always put you two turns ahead. That's not as relevant on turn nine as it is on turn one or two, but the point still stands.
You can't say that Moxen are better than Sol Ring because of Vintage and then say that comparing formats to one another is hogwash.
I'll make it very simple and clear. There is validity to comparing formats, but it has to be done within reason as comparing Oxidize in MD5 to Lorwyn is strange, but comparing it in usefulness when you're in Scars Block is far more reasonable even if the comparison won't be exact.
This being said, comparing a cube that emphasize a Fish ideology to a deck like Stax is like comparing Oxidize in MD5 and Lorwyn.
How exactly do i have a better than 50% chance of drawing a card when I've seen less than 50% of my deck?
Not to mention that bringing people "keeping awkward hands" and "drafting poorly because of sol ring" is an awful argument.
That's because I did something silly in the equation that lead to a weird result and I was too tired to notice? The actual equation should be in Wolfram Alpha:
[1- Product ((k)/(k+1))] and then you set the parameters of k based how many cards deep you go. At 7 you only have a 17.5% chance of seeing it, and at 16 cards (or 9 draws) it's a 40% chance. Obviously at 20 cards seen (13 draws) you've had a 50% chance of seeing it in those 20 cards.
Oh no doubt, it's not even an argument I want to make outside of a general observation that is more anecdote than anything. My apologize for making it unclear, as I didn't indicate any separation between the actual discussion and that specific statement.
I think in basically any scenario where I don't specifically need two colored mana, I would prefer Sol Ring to the Moxen. That's on any turn at any point in the game. Sol Ring will always put you two turns ahead. That's not as relevant on turn nine as it is on turn one or two, but the point still stands.
Also, Vintage != Cube.
How about on turn one when you only need one coloured mana to cast a two drop? Moxen will also put you one turn head and produce coloured mana. More so, they come in a larger batch than Sol Ring as there are 5 of them that you would include, where as Sol Ring is singular. The point however is that Sol Ring has a very rapid power decay, like most fast mana, and is only broken when it's doing something relevant. A Titan for example is always doing something relevant if it hits play.
No, they are not equal, but there are similarities and design principles can be used from both... Just as when designing a deck in vintage the usefulness and power level of Sol Ring and Moxen changes based on the design rather than being set in stone.
The point however is that Sol Ring has a very rapid power decay, like most fast mana, and is only broken when it's doing something relevant.
The same could be said for Moxen, though. I mean, if they aren't doing something relevant, it might as be an artifact land. Not following a turn one Sol Ring up with a turn two four drop is the same as not playing a two drop on turn one off a Mox. And both cards are terrible late game top decks. Sol Ring puts you farther ahead than Moxen do. That's why it's more degenerate. There are, however, cases where a Mox would be better because they produce colored mana.
No, they are not equal, but there are similarities and design principles can be used from both... Just as when designing a deck in vintage the usefulness and power level of Sol Ring and Moxen changes based on the design rather than being set in stone.
Sure, but the point is that you can't compare the two directly. You can't say the Moxen are better in Vintage and use that as an explanation as to why they are better in cube. It's not the same format at all.
Mana Vault is still crazy good and I'd still consider faster than what you want since you get 2 more mana than you should, while grim monolith only gives 1.
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After playing with Mana Vault in the MODO cube I am considering it to add it back in unpowered. It gives a faster boost than Grim (which can be played in unpowered IMO) but it i.) deals damage to you and ii.) having to pay at ur upkeep and not whenever you want are downsides.
They sure are. But 6 drops on T3 aren't what unpowered cubes are aiming for. If you want the kinds of plays Mana Vault provides, you want to be playing a powered cube.
5 mana on turn 2 is something I can get behind in any size or power of cube (think Plow Under, Stunted Growth, Baneslayer, Tezzeret, Siege-Gang Commander, etc. etc)
Tinkering on turn 2 instead of 3 is something I can get behind in any size or power of cube.
I have picked Mana Vault over Moxen and been quite happy about it, though I do think it's almost always worse than Lotus / Sol Ring. I would never include it in an unpowered list.
They sure are. But 6 drops on T3 aren't what unpowered cubes are aiming for. If you want the kinds of plays Mana Vault provides, you want to be playing a powered cube.
I disagree strongly with this. An early titan is something I regularly aim for and win with in unpowered lists, even if I don't hit it until turn 4 or 5. A turn earlier is even better, I think?
EDIT: misread wetwaffle's meaning. Agree strongly that if you want to have titans on turn 3 in your cube, you probably shouldn't be playing an unpowered cube, and Mana Vault makes that possible. If you want to play an unpowered cube, you don't want Mana Vault. Much of the time, it's a colorless Black Lotus.
An early titan is something I regularly aim for and win with in unpowered lists, even if I don't hit it until turn 4 or 5. A turn earlier is even better, I think?
Chiming in here that I also don't think that these should be in unpowered cubes. Grim Monolith walks a fine line, but I err on the side of not including it.
Basically, I'm a fan of mana acceleration that accelerates your *next* turn plays, not ones that Time Walk you immediately. You have to spend tempo to gain tempo.
I prefer (my brand of) unpowered yet have no issue with cards like Mana Vault and Grim Monolith. There is a huge difference between fast mana in the form of a mox (which doesn't cost you anything to include and offers a huge benefit to your deck) and a Mana Vault (which takes a deck slot, is not as good in every deck, is basically one shot and is bound to deal you some damage).
Of course it depends on how you define 'unpowered' and what makes you exclude the cards on your 'power ban list', but for me it's less about making crazy plays impossible and more about excluding cards that are virtual no-brainers during both drafting and deck building.
I'm not looking to start another 'powered-unpowered' debate, just wanted to provide another perspective on the topic.
I prefer (my brand of) unpowered yet have no issue with cards like Mana Vault and Grim Monolith. There is a huge difference between fast mana in the form of a mox (which doesn't cost you anything to include and offers a huge benefit to your deck) and a Mana Vault (which takes a deck slot, is not as good in every deck, is basically one shot and is bound to deal you some damage).
Of course it depends on how you define 'unpowered' and what makes you exclude the cards on your 'power ban list', but for me it's less about making crazy plays impossible and more about excluding cards that are virtual no-brainers during both drafting and deck building. I'm not looking to start another 'powered-unpowered' debate, just wanted to provide another perspective on the topic.
I never thought of running Sol Ring. I didn't want spend the money on one. I also felt like it could be really powerful if someone does get it. If you already play those 2cc or 3cc mana rocks you don't have to play Sol Ring. I have an unpowered cube and have though about adding Sol Ring. I'm interested in how it would do. I have select cards that can be threats such as Sun Titan, Grave Titan, Ob Nixilis, Rampaging Baloths, and Mind Twist. Mind Twist is banned in some cubes just like Sol Ring because people think Mind Twist is too powerful. You won't necessarily loose if they play mind twist. They may force you to discard 3 or 4 cards and you could still eventually win.
You won't necessarily loose if they play mind twist.
The same is true of every cube card that people ban. Nothing is unbeatable. And if you're not banning Mind Twist for being too powerful, there isn't much else that would be.
I think Mind Twist is actually fine if played in a fair (meaning: non-accelerated) way. Discarding three cards at random on turn four is ok. Discarding three cards at random on turn two is what can ruin your whole game. This is why I hate super fast mana: It turns great cards into utterly broken ones.
I think Mind Twist is actually fine if played in a fair (meaning: non-accelerated) way. Discarding three cards at random on turn four is ok. Discarding three cards at random on turn two is what can ruin your whole game. This is why I hate super fast mana: It turns great cards into utterly broken ones.
Discarding 3 cards minimum at random on t4 for the price of 3B is still quite insane, as that could very well be their whole hand or close to it. Add a signet (or 2) t2 or t3 and it probably is their whole hand.
While hoping not to derail the original discussion, whats the difference with a person winning on the back of a big Mind Twist t3-4 or an Armageddon at the same tempo?
To the original point, I currently only run Grim Monolith as fast mana because I fall in the camp that the Ring and Mana friends do unbalance games beyond the variance point I'd like. I have yet to see it wreck a game IMO, but I keep a watchful eye on it. I'm interested in how people rate the mana rocks and where they draw the line if they are unpowered cubers. Mine would go like:
Lotus
Sol Ring
Moxes
Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
Grim Monolith
Signets
Mind Stone
Basalt Monolith
Pristine Talisman
Beyond that I think we are talking pedestrian cards that fill a role, but are interchangeable. How do you rate them? Where is your line? Obviously the powered folks like them all, but where would you draw the line if you weren't?
Sol Ring (this goes at the top of most cube lists where it is relevant)
Lotus
Moxen
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
------------
Grim Monolith (could be argued to be above the line)
Signets
Mind Stone (interchangeable with signet, in that they both have their merits and demerits)
Gilded Lotus
Monolith
Other Cards
In an unpowered cube, I try to eliminate the cards that, by themselves and with lands, enable t1-3 insane drops. I don't think a t3 4 drop off a signet is broken as it's not TOO ahead of the curve, but a t2 4 drop off a Sol Ring is.
The two aren't comparable, the formats are vastly different. Standard might much prefer Sol Ring to Moxen if given the chance, but that has no impact on power-level within the cube. Sol Ring is much more powerful in EDH as well (even though Moxes are banned), but again, that is entirely different.
Just because every deck wants moxen doesn't mean they are more powerful in Vintage either. Mishra's Workshop decks use both Moxen and Sol Ring, but would much rather have Sol Ring in their opener.
Yeah, I'm going to stop here before I start rambling about other things...
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
No, Standard would much rather have moxen, especially right now. Being able to cast Delver + Ponder on turn one far outweighs the ability to cast Sol Ring and nothing turn 1. EDH is also a weird format where it's hard to make a true evaluation of both cards as one is banned and the other isn't, obviously moxen are banned as a price issue and not a power issue in that format, but the format also tends to be more durdley than other formats so of course Sol Ring will be the fan favorite. However, this is not exactly relevant as many of the top tier EDH decks don't care about Sol Ring but would rather prefer other fast mana sources, such as Arcum Dagson (A common "kill on sight" general) would rather have a mana Myr than a Sol Ring, but isn't opposed to Sol Ring either.
As someone who played Stax way back when, and owned power, I can easily state that Stax isn't an example in your favor. It's a deck that is very focused and might as well be Dredge in terms of how much it deviates from the format norm... More so, the reason the deck exists isn't because of Sol Ring but because of Shop, Moxen, Sol Ring, Lotus, etc working in combination to assure certain things. Honestly, while Sol Ring is the preferred play in Stax, there's nothing wrong with going T1 Land+Mox into Sphere.
I feel like people are too caught up on Sol Ring, it's a fantastic card, don't get me wrong, but the mentality around it is such these days that more drafts are probably skewed in disfavor of the Sol Ring player than in favor of them because that feeling of euphoria clouds their judgement on future picks.
Sol Ring doesn't have to be in the opening 7 to be good. If it's my first or second draw it's still going to be powerful. This in stark contrast to the ABU Moxes where if they're not in your opening hand their value severely diminishes and especially midgame where it is merely a spell land drop. I also wouldn't say ABU Moxes go in every deck either. The comparisons to Vintage are also off base considering you're comparing a constructed format with a limited singleton environment.
Before we discuss this any further what do you think the single most powerful card in your cube is?
Who's eating crow?
My point was you can't compare Vintage to Cube and have anyone take you seriously. I don't care about any of the other points you made because not only are they not relevant to the discussion, but they're wrong or contradictory. Example:
Cube is different, and the vast majority of people agree that Sol Ring is more powerful than Moxen.
EDIT:
Jitte. I'll take it over any card in the cube for a few reasons.
1) It's colorless, which is a huge selling-point as you can more easily feel out what aggressive cards are going to be sent to you.
2) It works in multiple draft archetypes (aggro and mid-range). Cards that only work in one archetype are worse IMO because you can get cut out of that archetype. It's hard to get cut from both aggro AND mid-range. I've occasionally had the control deck that plays Jitte as well.
3) You're happy to have it in your hand at any point in the game. Sol Ring and Black Lotus aren't amazing unless they're in your opener (although arguably they are much better than Jitte when they are in your opener). The fact that Jitte is still an amazing topdeck on turn 10 as well as being awesome in your opener is a testament to it's power.
4) It's versatile. It gains you life, kills creatures, makes combat math ridiculously messy, and pushes through damage.
5) It's powerful. Any single mode of Jitte is very powerful, but adding all three of them together gives you one of the most powerful magic cards of all time.
I think the six strongest cards in my cube are Jitte, Ancestral Recall, Sol Ring, Mana Drain, Time Walk, and Library. Most of my playgroup agrees with this, although their order is different. I think Jitte, Ancestral, and Sol Ring are miles above Drain, Time Walk, and Library.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
On the second draw you're only getting to around 25% chance of seeing it in a 40 card deck. That's good but it's still not fantastic, and remember each turn that goes by without you drawing it, Sol Rings power is decreasing and rapidly. On your ninth draw you have a 50.25% chance of getting it, that's including the opening 7... Which means you've seen 16 out of 40 cards. ABU Moxen generate coloured mana and if you have on colour moxen you're playing them as they are generally strictly better than a land drop. I'm sure if we did the math there would be a point where Moxen are equal to Sol Ring beyond the first two turns in terms of usefulness and power. As for comparing Vintage to Cube, both formats include the history of magic and both are very singleton in nature. There's more variance in cube, but there's also enough consistency to create certain similarities and the reduced deck size also yields to such.
While some people would mention creatures, and others Sol Ring, I have to say Jitte is probably the strongest. It's a card that can make a somewhat dopey deck into a serious one and is far more likely to win a game for you than any creature or Sol Ring.
@Blimpy: Stax isn't an example in your favor not because Sol Ring isn't great in it, but because it's a unique strategy that depends on a different dynamic than what my cube is based on. In other words, Oxidize was a house in the Mirrodin meta but probably wouldn't be relevant in Lorwyn...
This is 100% exactly the opposite of what you originally said.
You can't say that Moxen are better than Sol Ring because of Vintage and then say that comparing formats to one another is hogwash.
[B]I am done with this discussion because you talk out of both sides of your mouth and refuse to admit that you've made glaring contradictions.[/B]
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
Not to mention that bringing people "keeping awkward hands" and "drafting poorly because of sol ring" is an awful argument.
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I'll make it very simple and clear. There is validity to comparing formats, but it has to be done within reason as comparing Oxidize in MD5 to Lorwyn is strange, but comparing it in usefulness when you're in Scars Block is far more reasonable even if the comparison won't be exact.
This being said, comparing a cube that emphasize a Fish ideology to a deck like Stax is like comparing Oxidize in MD5 and Lorwyn.
That's because I did something silly in the equation that lead to a weird result and I was too tired to notice? The actual equation should be in Wolfram Alpha:
[1- Product ((k)/(k+1))] and then you set the parameters of k based how many cards deep you go. At 7 you only have a 17.5% chance of seeing it, and at 16 cards (or 9 draws) it's a 40% chance. Obviously at 20 cards seen (13 draws) you've had a 50% chance of seeing it in those 20 cards.
Oh no doubt, it's not even an argument I want to make outside of a general observation that is more anecdote than anything. My apologize for making it unclear, as I didn't indicate any separation between the actual discussion and that specific statement.
How about on turn one when you only need one coloured mana to cast a two drop? Moxen will also put you one turn head and produce coloured mana. More so, they come in a larger batch than Sol Ring as there are 5 of them that you would include, where as Sol Ring is singular. The point however is that Sol Ring has a very rapid power decay, like most fast mana, and is only broken when it's doing something relevant. A Titan for example is always doing something relevant if it hits play.
No, they are not equal, but there are similarities and design principles can be used from both... Just as when designing a deck in vintage the usefulness and power level of Sol Ring and Moxen changes based on the design rather than being set in stone.
Yep. That's one instance where a Mox would be better that a Sol Ring. What else do you got?
The same could be said for Moxen, though. I mean, if they aren't doing something relevant, it might as be an artifact land. Not following a turn one Sol Ring up with a turn two four drop is the same as not playing a two drop on turn one off a Mox. And both cards are terrible late game top decks. Sol Ring puts you farther ahead than Moxen do. That's why it's more degenerate. There are, however, cases where a Mox would be better because they produce colored mana.
Sure, but the point is that you can't compare the two directly. You can't say the Moxen are better in Vintage and use that as an explanation as to why they are better in cube. It's not the same format at all.
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They sure are. But 6 drops on T3 aren't what unpowered cubes are aiming for. If you want the kinds of plays Mana Vault provides, you want to be playing a powered cube.
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Tinkering on turn 2 instead of 3 is something I can get behind in any size or power of cube.
I have picked Mana Vault over Moxen and been quite happy about it, though I do think it's almost always worse than Lotus / Sol Ring. I would never include it in an unpowered list.
I disagree strongly with this. An early titan is something I regularly aim for and win with in unpowered lists, even if I don't hit it until turn 4 or 5. A turn earlier is even better, I think?
EDIT: misread wetwaffle's meaning. Agree strongly that if you want to have titans on turn 3 in your cube, you probably shouldn't be playing an unpowered cube, and Mana Vault makes that possible. If you want to play an unpowered cube, you don't want Mana Vault. Much of the time, it's a colorless Black Lotus.
Which is why I enjoy playing powered cubes.
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Basically, I'm a fan of mana acceleration that accelerates your *next* turn plays, not ones that Time Walk you immediately. You have to spend tempo to gain tempo.
My Cube Blog @theCubeMiser on Twitter
Of course it depends on how you define 'unpowered' and what makes you exclude the cards on your 'power ban list', but for me it's less about making crazy plays impossible and more about excluding cards that are virtual no-brainers during both drafting and deck building.
I'm not looking to start another 'powered-unpowered' debate, just wanted to provide another perspective on the topic.
This is why I don't run super fast mana.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
The same is true of every cube card that people ban. Nothing is unbeatable. And if you're not banning Mind Twist for being too powerful, there isn't much else that would be.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Discarding 3 cards minimum at random on t4 for the price of 3B is still quite insane, as that could very well be their whole hand or close to it. Add a signet (or 2) t2 or t3 and it probably is their whole hand.
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To the original point, I currently only run Grim Monolith as fast mana because I fall in the camp that the Ring and Mana friends do unbalance games beyond the variance point I'd like. I have yet to see it wreck a game IMO, but I keep a watchful eye on it. I'm interested in how people rate the mana rocks and where they draw the line if they are unpowered cubers. Mine would go like:
Lotus
Sol Ring
Moxes
Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
Grim Monolith
Signets
Mind Stone
Basalt Monolith
Pristine Talisman
Beyond that I think we are talking pedestrian cards that fill a role, but are interchangeable. How do you rate them? Where is your line? Obviously the powered folks like them all, but where would you draw the line if you weren't?
http://cubetutor.com/cubeblog/993
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/23690
Sol Ring (this goes at the top of most cube lists where it is relevant)
Lotus
Moxen
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
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Grim Monolith (could be argued to be above the line)
Signets
Mind Stone (interchangeable with signet, in that they both have their merits and demerits)
Gilded Lotus
Monolith
Other Cards
In an unpowered cube, I try to eliminate the cards that, by themselves and with lands, enable t1-3 insane drops. I don't think a t3 4 drop off a signet is broken as it's not TOO ahead of the curve, but a t2 4 drop off a Sol Ring is.
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Monolith above gilded and mind stone.