So I was looking at this and I think it's pretty cool actually. I think in a lot of ways it's a sort of "got ya!" card that can have other applications.
I know that the white 4 drop slot is stacked, but this card always just makes me think a little bit. It's a great counter to things like Wrath of God, and Armageddon especially where they do it and you're just like "nah bro, you can sac all your stuff." If any of you have used Boros Charm in that mode you know how sweet it is, now image if it did that and triggered all the CIP effects?
Now those are cool uses but not exactly ones that happen a lot, and paying 4 to counter single target removal isn't great most of the time, but you can also just make attacks or blocks to trade off a couple of creatures and then just bring them right back for extra CIP effects. If you have Eternal Witness you can basically block or attack at will, as each time your guys die, as long as the Witness dies in the process you get to bring everything back and regain the Faith's Reward.
You can also set up some cool turns with it too, like you know have a turn where you crack a fetch and use a Wasteland to completely unbalance the board. You can also do cool things with evoke creatures, to make it a pseudo Momentary Blink, and it works fine with things like Sneak Attack, Planeswalkers losing all their loyalty, Pox plans (you sac your stuff and it comes right back), and much more.
I don't know, am I just too into weird cards that do cute things, or does this card have some cool applications that can be discovered? I mean there are a lot of cards that sacrifice things in the cube these days, and there are still a decent amount of echo cards... I can't help but think there will be some nuts plays with this card, and it's not like it's ever dead, because at worst it brings back something they remove, and often times you can gain additional value with a block or fetch, mindstone, or something.
In my experience, cards like this always seem to play out more awkward in practice than in play. The situations you generate on your side of the board seem underwhelming for four mana, and the Wrath like situations require you to keep four mana up in what is probably an aggressive deck.
Too expensive. I ran stuff like this in the early days of my cube and its just too hard to get value without sacrificing huge amounts of tempo. The window for this to be good is a narrow one so you'll either miss it or wait several turns with the mana open to no avail. I cut caller of the claw for this reason and that card is cheaper AND has a better wcs.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
To me they don't even compete for the same slot. Charm has to fight against the other Boros cards, but Faith's Reward only has to fight against white cards. And it is generally a lot easier to include a card in a large monocolor section than a small multicolor section.
That being said, as Wrath protection or combat trick, four mana is way too much. Caller of the Claw is already borderline at three mana. You'd need to be getting a lot of extra mileage from the combo potential outside of that.
So my white cube has a heavy sweepers theme, and I've included a lot of cards that help play around them, including Faith's Reward and Second Sunrise. Because that cube has a limited cardpool, it gets played, but just barely, because I was specifically hunting out these effects. In anything resembling a "normal" cube, I can't imagine this is good enough to get played.
Four mana is just way too much for a card that requires a bunch of your stuff to die for you to gain positive value. That's too much mana for you to cast another sweeper alongside it, and if you are trying to play around sweepers, there are better options for that as well - blue has counters, red/white has Boros Charm, equipment mitigates the damage done, etc.
Calling the effect worse than indestructibility does not give it enough credit: while indestructibility can be better on the offense or when your opponent has a creature with first/double strike, Faith's Reward also works against toughness/loyalty reduction, with/against sacrifice effects and with etb cards.
I don't think those interactions are nearly worth doubling the cost and removing 2/3s of the card's effects.
I simply don't think this card is worth 4 mana. Not even close.
Quote from PyreDream »
To me they don't even compete for the same slot. Charm has to fight against the other Boros cards, but Faith's Reward only has to fight against white cards. And it is generally a lot easier to include a card in a large monocolor section than a small multicolor section.
I didn't say they were fighting for the same slot. I was simply showing how overpriced the effect is.
So I did a quick tally of what my cube has for interactions:
Has an Echo: 7
Has a sacrifice outlet or sacrifices self: 40
Wrath and wrath like effects: 10
Everyone sacrifices: 6
Has Fading: 3
Creatures with Evoke: 3 (I'm not running Shriekmaw yet.)
Has the potential to kill itself (Bane of the Living): 3
So I'm running a total of 72 cards that can interact with Faith's Reward.
As for those talking about Caller of the Claw I don't think these cards are very similar. Caller needs creatures to die and it only makes 2/2s, this card on the other hand has far more interaction. With Smokestack alone you can close a game out with this, and with Greater Gargadon you can set up pretty big turns. It's weird but red has the most interactions with it, it would seem, as you have Avalanche Riders which has an awesome effect, you have all sorts of Earthquake/Pyroclasm effects, you even have Siege-gang Commander who can throw himself and then be Breath of Lifed back into play at instant speed along with anything else that may have died that turn on your side. It's also pretty sexy with something like Goblin Welder as it can give you some extra value. Oh and Fireblast.
I think I might gives this card a test spin, I just love janky fun cards like this.
===================
Did a similar count of Waffle's cube:
Has an Echo: 7
Has a sacrifice outlet or sacrifices self: 45
Wrath and wrath like effects: 19
Has Fading: 2
Creatures with Evoke: 3
Has the potential to kill itself (Bane of the Living): 5
Is a planeswalker: 24
Dies at end of turn (or has three gem counters): 3
Total: 108*
*I use the photos of his cube so this may be out of date. (Also what happened to Trading Post?)
To me they don't even compete for the same slot. Charm has to fight against the other Boros cards, but Faith's Reward only has to fight against white cards. And it is generally a lot easier to include a card in a large monocolor section than a small multicolor section.
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I hear people say this a lot, but I don't agree. It's easier to break into guild sections than mono color because the amount of guilded cards that exist are a small fraction of the single colored cards in existence. Its especially true for guilds which have not been supported much over the years.
Yes, the photos are WAY out of date. I'm doing more post Dragon's Maze. Post was cut because it was too slow. It goldfished really well, and played great in grindy mirror games, but was ultimately too slow/low-impact in too many matchups.
I don't doubt that the card has interactions. I just think the effect is overcosted at 4 mana, that's all. Not to mention that it competes in a slot with the most numerous and powerful of CMCs in the cube (the 4cc white spell slot). It would be great at 1W, good at WW and perhaps playable at 2W. But at 4 mana, I just think it's too expensive.
Ah, that's fair. I like the idea of slower matches so for me grindy cards are a-ok, but Post does have those moments where it kind of stutters a bit. I still like it though, but it's not as amazing as I'd hoped... Staff of Nin on the other hand has been amazing each time I drafted it.
I think I'll do photos post Dragon Maze too, once I move up to 450.
I hear people say this a lot, but I don't agree. It's easier to break into guild sections than mono color because the amount of guilded cards that exist are a small fraction of the single colored cards in existence. Its especially true for guilds which have not been supported much over the years.
Yes, for something like Izzet this is true, but for say Selesniya or Boros it isn't really the case. I mean we have Boros Charm, Lightning Helix, and Ajani Vengeant which are all amazing cards and probably won't have much competition in the near future. The fourth slot is more open, but it's not exactly easy to get into as Slayer's Stronghold is a rather strong card, and I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
I think Figure of Destiny is a top Boros card, and the Stronghold and Boros Reckoner all compete at about the same level as Lightning Helix in my experience.
just abused this little card with a smokestack, braids, and parallax wave deck... probably one of the top table flipping experiences i have seen in awhile!
after this game, i think this card with strong use of fade or echo abilities would be the best to abuse this, in addition to a braids style play.
requires too much to set up and 4 mana is a lot. When its bad its really bad.
I don't think it really requires that much. I mean it plays into what a lot of decks want to be doing as is anyway, and sure sometimes it can be a dud but then so can a lot of cards... When Sneak Attack is bad, it's 3R do nothing, and the same can be said for Natural Order, but those cards are good when in the right deck.
The upside to sneak attack and natural order are a lot higher than faiths reward. Faith's reward requires you to have a somewhat decent board state to get going. Sneak attack and natural order only require a card to be good.
The upside to sneak attack and natural order are a lot higher than faiths reward. Faith's reward requires you to have a somewhat decent board state to get going. Sneak attack and natural order only require a card to be good.
Not really. A single card can really create a asymmetry in Faith's Reward, the better argument is that Faith's Reward has less redundant cards. Though really something like Smokestack or even a Fetch + Waste/Strip can be absolutely back breaking.
Then again Deranged Hermit does do some cool things with it too, even if you don't have much else as it's basically a blink for him that can generate a decent amount of advantage.
Though really you're sacrificing some power for utility so you can use it to counter removal or LD.
Yes and no, all three depend heavily on having targets. If you're ramping into Sneak Attack with no targets in hand, it's not really doing much.
That being said, ramping with Faith's Reward does offer some benefits, as some of the ramp can provide extra benefit, such as the sacrifice option on Mindstone. There's also the fact that it lets you play the card earlier so if you're just looking to have a critical turn of double Fetch + double Strip/Waste, it's perfectly fine to ramp as that's pretty big game.
So I was looking at this and I think it's pretty cool actually. I think in a lot of ways it's a sort of "got ya!" card that can have other applications.
I know that the white 4 drop slot is stacked, but this card always just makes me think a little bit. It's a great counter to things like Wrath of God, and Armageddon especially where they do it and you're just like "nah bro, you can sac all your stuff." If any of you have used Boros Charm in that mode you know how sweet it is, now image if it did that and triggered all the CIP effects?
Now those are cool uses but not exactly ones that happen a lot, and paying 4 to counter single target removal isn't great most of the time, but you can also just make attacks or blocks to trade off a couple of creatures and then just bring them right back for extra CIP effects. If you have Eternal Witness you can basically block or attack at will, as each time your guys die, as long as the Witness dies in the process you get to bring everything back and regain the Faith's Reward.
You can also set up some cool turns with it too, like you know have a turn where you crack a fetch and use a Wasteland to completely unbalance the board. You can also do cool things with evoke creatures, to make it a pseudo Momentary Blink, and it works fine with things like Sneak Attack, Planeswalkers losing all their loyalty, Pox plans (you sac your stuff and it comes right back), and much more.
I don't know, am I just too into weird cards that do cute things, or does this card have some cool applications that can be discovered? I mean there are a lot of cards that sacrifice things in the cube these days, and there are still a decent amount of echo cards... I can't help but think there will be some nuts plays with this card, and it's not like it's ever dead, because at worst it brings back something they remove, and often times you can gain additional value with a block or fetch, mindstone, or something.
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It's a one-sided second sunrise. Seems combo-riffic to me.
That being said, as Wrath protection or combat trick, four mana is way too much. Caller of the Claw is already borderline at three mana. You'd need to be getting a lot of extra mileage from the combo potential outside of that.
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Four mana is just way too much for a card that requires a bunch of your stuff to die for you to gain positive value. That's too much mana for you to cast another sweeper alongside it, and if you are trying to play around sweepers, there are better options for that as well - blue has counters, red/white has Boros Charm, equipment mitigates the damage done, etc.
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I don't think those interactions are nearly worth doubling the cost and removing 2/3s of the card's effects.
I simply don't think this card is worth 4 mana. Not even close.
I didn't say they were fighting for the same slot. I was simply showing how overpriced the effect is.
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Has an Echo: 7
Has a sacrifice outlet or sacrifices self: 40
Wrath and wrath like effects: 10
Everyone sacrifices: 6
Has Fading: 3
Creatures with Evoke: 3 (I'm not running Shriekmaw yet.)
Has the potential to kill itself (Bane of the Living): 3
So I'm running a total of 72 cards that can interact with Faith's Reward.
As for those talking about Caller of the Claw I don't think these cards are very similar. Caller needs creatures to die and it only makes 2/2s, this card on the other hand has far more interaction. With Smokestack alone you can close a game out with this, and with Greater Gargadon you can set up pretty big turns. It's weird but red has the most interactions with it, it would seem, as you have Avalanche Riders which has an awesome effect, you have all sorts of Earthquake/Pyroclasm effects, you even have Siege-gang Commander who can throw himself and then be Breath of Lifed back into play at instant speed along with anything else that may have died that turn on your side. It's also pretty sexy with something like Goblin Welder as it can give you some extra value. Oh and Fireblast.
I think I might gives this card a test spin, I just love janky fun cards like this.
===================
Did a similar count of Waffle's cube:
Has an Echo: 7
Has a sacrifice outlet or sacrifices self: 45
Wrath and wrath like effects: 19
Has Fading: 2
Creatures with Evoke: 3
Has the potential to kill itself (Bane of the Living): 5
Is a planeswalker: 24
Dies at end of turn (or has three gem counters): 3
Total: 108*
*I use the photos of his cube so this may be out of date. (Also what happened to Trading Post?)
I hear people say this a lot, but I don't agree. It's easier to break into guild sections than mono color because the amount of guilded cards that exist are a small fraction of the single colored cards in existence. Its especially true for guilds which have not been supported much over the years.
I don't doubt that the card has interactions. I just think the effect is overcosted at 4 mana, that's all. Not to mention that it competes in a slot with the most numerous and powerful of CMCs in the cube (the 4cc white spell slot). It would be great at 1W, good at WW and perhaps playable at 2W. But at 4 mana, I just think it's too expensive.
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I think I'll do photos post Dragon Maze too, once I move up to 450.
Yes, for something like Izzet this is true, but for say Selesniya or Boros it isn't really the case. I mean we have Boros Charm, Lightning Helix, and Ajani Vengeant which are all amazing cards and probably won't have much competition in the near future. The fourth slot is more open, but it's not exactly easy to get into as Slayer's Stronghold is a rather strong card, and I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
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My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
after this game, i think this card with strong use of fade or echo abilities would be the best to abuse this, in addition to a braids style play.
thoughts?
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I don't think it really requires that much. I mean it plays into what a lot of decks want to be doing as is anyway, and sure sometimes it can be a dud but then so can a lot of cards... When Sneak Attack is bad, it's 3R do nothing, and the same can be said for Natural Order, but those cards are good when in the right deck.
Not really. A single card can really create a asymmetry in Faith's Reward, the better argument is that Faith's Reward has less redundant cards. Though really something like Smokestack or even a Fetch + Waste/Strip can be absolutely back breaking.
Then again Deranged Hermit does do some cool things with it too, even if you don't have much else as it's basically a blink for him that can generate a decent amount of advantage.
Though really you're sacrificing some power for utility so you can use it to counter removal or LD.
That being said, ramping with Faith's Reward does offer some benefits, as some of the ramp can provide extra benefit, such as the sacrifice option on Mindstone. There's also the fact that it lets you play the card earlier so if you're just looking to have a critical turn of double Fetch + double Strip/Waste, it's perfectly fine to ramp as that's pretty big game.