Like, to be fair, playing EDH with people like this is mine.
I mean, you just don't *need* these things, and the default reaction to people saying "Hey dude, I can see that you think spending $100 on 'staples' is a good idea, but we don't. Could you chill it out a bit and play *casual* like every other player at the table, just for us?" should not be "Well screw you, I play the way I play and if you don't like it, sod off."
Go back to Vintage, go back to Standard or whatever other ☺☺☺☺ty format is actually *about* winning and nothing ese.
This isn't that format.
Hear hear, my friend. That's exactly what I thought, except in a slightly more subdued tone.
More to the point: people who don't keep track of how many times they have castes their generals. It always leads to an argument. It's so simple. Please do it.
People who roll dice to choose their target (just... hold on to it, man. It'll still be good next turn, when there's a threat to deal with).
This a thousand times, just grow a pair and attack someone, i will refuse to roll when this comes up.
Also at Kramit26:
1. 36 land, artifact accel, few beaters, some control magic, and 45 counterspells, Teferi. C'mon let's actually play magic people...
4. People who complain about land destruction. It's a full archetype get over it. If someone is playing Red White just to play every land D avail then yea kinda annoying and have a talk with them. Otherwise, play like a smart EDH player and put some friggin' artifact accel in your deck.
You contradict yourself a lot here...just sayin.
And
5. "I can't afford the cards." simply... just stop playing magic then, it's EDH it's most oftenly the LEAST expensive format in Magic next to limited. Be a creative son of a b***h and win abstractly there are so many good cards to pick from.
I gotta say edh decks can get pretty expensive. And often times those expensive cards can be pretty fun.
People who roll a die to decide who to attack thinking it makes you a nicer person. This just makes you look dumb.
This is one of my pet peeves as well. So many people in my playgroup do this and its really annoying.
Constant land destruction is my major peeve. While yes, it is a legitimate strategy, its the most cowardly way of winning the game. All it shows me is that you're too terrified to actually play against my deck. Its like camping spawning points in an FPS, cowardly, but you win... I guess.
Another is countering everything I try to do. One guy in my playgroup runs a Vorosh, the Hunter control deck. ALL it does (and I'm not exaggerating) is ramp, counter, and swing with Vorosh. That is the mission to the deck. 10+ ramp, 25+ counter spells (no kidding, I asked him), and some regrowth effects. And he wonders why I refuse to play him games...
My biggest complain would be players that do not know their own deck. By this, I mean that there are many players that don't even know how their cards -- much less how their deck actually works. They would play something like Crucible of Worlds and start transmuting their Tolaria West from the graveyard or Duplicant a 6/6 Draining Whelk and proceed to call their Duplicant a 6/6 Shapeshifter Illusion. It gets more annoying when they start arguing despite CR evidences to the contrary.
It gets on my nerve least because it is often indicative of "blind netdecking" but because I feel that at the very least, players should know about the rules surrounding their own cards.
Infinite combos, especially with cards that take only one step to complete and win the game.
When i lose to someone playing an average deck, i look back through the match, realizing what i should've done, or what i could've done to prevent the loss. However there is such a narrow answer to combos. Either have the Krosan Grip in hand (if it's an artifact/enchantment combo), or start running blue, and run counter spells.
It's really really stupid when those are my options. I'm encouraged to make a better deck when i lose to someone who overran with a huge amount of tokens, or someone who locked me down, or someone who beats down with general damage, every color has that ability to get out of it- but do i really just have to join the club and play blue every game now?
"I can't afford the cards." simply... just stop playing magic then, it's EDH it's most oftenly the LEAST expensive format in Magic next to limited. Be a creative son of a b***h and win abstractly there are so many good cards to pick from.
I'm not saying i can't win without a primeval titan or mind sculptors or revised dual lands, but it would be 10x better if i did have the extra money that some people have.
My biggest complain would be players that do not know their own deck.
This, but differently than you described it. I hate it when they take 10 minutes for a demonic tutor - you've played your deck enough, you should know what's in it, and what's the best choice before you even tap the mana.
Also on the rest of what you said - it's nice to have a judge that plays with you
My biggest pet-peeve in all the 'verse is players calling other players/cards/decks "Douche-bags" or "douchie." Counterspells exist. Mass Land-Destruction exists. Combos happen, but past that, combo decks exist and are a third of the classic Rock/Paper/Scissors meta-metagame breakdown. I get that wizards is trying to ram it down our throats that "magic is about creature combat, look at these shiny new power-creep enhanced toys," but that doesn't mean everyone agrees with it (I certainly don't).
The moral, I guess, is let people play. Nothing that anyone can do in-game can make them a "douche-bag."
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"There's no such thing as a good play. There's the right play, then there's the mistake" -Jon Finkel
My biggest pet-peeve in all the 'verse is players calling other players/cards/decks "Douche-bags" or "douchie." Counterspells exist. Mass Land-Destruction exists. Combos happen, but past that, combo decks exist and are a third of the classic Rock/Paper/Scissors meta-metagame breakdown. I get that wizards is trying to ram it down our throats that "magic is about creature combat, look at these shiny new power-creep enhanced toys," but that doesn't mean everyone agrees with it (I certainly don't).
Man, that brings up another pet peeve, though it isn't EDH specific: losing to the sheer power of recent creatures and hosers for noncreature strategies -- specifically, stuff like Bojuka Bog and Leyline of Sanctity. I love these cards to death, but sometimes it's really annoying that WotC prints such low-opportunity-cost hosers for strategies that aren't about bumping creatures into each other.
Bojuka Bog -- Tormod's Crypt at least costs you a card and a spell slot in your deck. Bojuka Bog makes you lose to my land drop, pre-sideboard -- play more creatures, kthx.
Leyline of Sanctity -- Oh, you're playing a burn deck? Now you can't possibly win, ever. On turn zero, for zero mana. Good thing red can't kill enchantments, amirite?!
Maybe they're just balancing out the fact that they printed stuff like Moat a while back, but then again it's rare to see a Moat because it costs hundreds of dollars while even your friend's new Naya 5-power-or-greater deck probably splashes for Bojuka Bog. I just like some breathing room when it comes to deckbuilding, that's all.
@Dosu: Amen. I don't know if you were playing then, but I remember when Isamaru was first spoiled, and the community went crazy for a 2/2 for 1, and that ☺☺☺☺er was legendary. 5 years later, we get common 3/3s for 1. Man.... how times change.
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"There's no such thing as a good play. There's the right play, then there's the mistake" -Jon Finkel
P.S: the above is also why 'play to win' Street Fighter guy who was popular a while about was so horribly wrong about everything.
Sirlin's Playing to Win series gets quoted without proper context a lot. One thing he emphasizes is that playing to win is not for every circumstance. Another is that EDH is known to be a grossly unbalanced format, kept in check by social mores. He's actually very right with regard to what he was writing about, i.e. competitive gameplay.
My pet peeves:
Targetting of players because of the player's reputation, not their deck/position.
Mass LD without a clear method to win (hint: Desolation Angel will not go all the way against 3 people).
Generals that search. You're going to go for the same stuff every time, and it gets old.
I really think the word 'fun' is unhelpful here. Casual players are in no way opposed to winning, and Spikes, I assume, find winning 'fun'. Winning and fun are in no way mutually exclusive, which is why there's so much confusion/argument about casual vs competitive, especially in EDH. I think there's a better way of looking at it:
Magic players play Magic for enjoyment. It seems trivially true that very few people would play any game if they didn't enjoy doing so. Obviously, different people derive enjoyment from the game in different ways. People who play what we call 'competitive' decks derive enjoyment from the result of the game - the win. So, naturally, they optimise their decks to give them the greatest possible chance of deriving the most enjoyment from each game. This may include infinite combos, lockdown, and the like, which are fair game because they increase enjoyment for the player.
People who play 'casual' decks derive enjoyment from the process of playing the game. This includes winning, but also a whole host of other things - big plays, cool interactions, fat beats. 'Casual' players enjoy these things in and of themselves, whereas 'competitive' players view them as a means to an end. Naturally, 'casual' players don't like it when their enjoyment is frustrated by being locked out of the game.
So you have a situation where players derive enjoyment from different aspects of the game. The solution is not for 'competitive' players to play suboptimally, or for 'casual' players to suck it up and play Clique, but for each group to have a bit of maturity and realise that playing games by definition is not all about them, but involves other people who need to enjoy themselves if they are to keep playing. Compromise is the name of the game here.
P.S: the above is also why 'play to win' Street Fighter guy who was popular a while about was so horribly wrong about everything.
P.P.S: sorry for derailing the thread.
I agree that compromise--or just playing with people that want to play the way you do--is the only way EDH can work. But I disagree with the terminology "casual" player.
The point of "competative" play is to win first, have fun second. Hence the name--it invokes the spirit of competition that these players enjoy.
The point of "casual" play is to have fun first, and win second. My question is: why does this make me casual? I'm as hardcore into Magic as they come. I've been playing since Fallen Empires in 1994. I played standard for years and wrote articles on building your own original decks in that format too. Hell, I just wrote and defended a 130 page thesis for my Masters in sociology on the social importance of Magic subculture this summer. But I'm a "casual" player?
So, I refer to "casual" play as Fun play, because Fun is the main purpose--just like competition is the main purpose for competative play. "Casual" implies that we aren't serious about the game. How the hell am I a "casual" player when I spend hours building themed EDH decks, and the kid who decklists some stupid, boring build and then combos out is a "competative" player? The implication in this terminology is that he takes the game more seriously than me, and this is wrong.
5. "I can't afford the cards." simply... just stop playing magic then, it's EDH it's most oftenly the LEAST expensive format in Magic next to limited. Be a creative son of a b***h and win abstractly there are so many good cards to pick from.
Also I disapprove of people who don't like proxies, I mean I make a point of making beautiful printed proxies, that at a distance of about a foot are nearly indistinguishable from the real thing. Yet some people just want to spend massive stacks of money on the game, and feel that I should repeat their mistake. Listen, it's fine if you wanted to spend hundreds of dollars on your stuff, more power to you, thanks for supporting the game for me, I'm very cool with these people. But if you feel like everybody else should do that too, that's your problem. My group will happily ostracize you.
I agree very strongly with Nideovinja. I think EDH is a really cheap format... if you've been playing for awhile and have a collection to draw upon. I got back into magic after a looong hiatus, so when I make an EDH deck, I have to buy every single card, and there's nothing cheap about even non-competitive EDH decks. I think my cheapest (mono-red!) was in the maybe $60-$80 range, but every other deck I've got cost easily over $100 or $200. And I proxy!
I also used to make high quality proxies that were indistinguishable from a distance, but I've recently had much more fun putting my rusty photoshop skills to use and making my own digital alters. My Chains of Mephistopheles is below. If I'm going to proxy a card, I put time and effort into it, and most everyone I know enjoys/doesn't mind the alters. But yeah the occasional, 'Oh, uh... I dunno man... it's a proxy...' just makes me stare. I can more than afford any card I want- but I'm not spending a boatload of cash on an ancient card with bad art, or a hot new card that will plummet once it leaves standard.
Ditto for gold bordered cards, also. After I realized the last couple of championship decks they printed had new borders, I snapped them up to get old cards in new frames. Now I've got an old-art Stifle is a new frame, which you flat-out cannot get in any other way, and if someone balks at the gold border, I laugh.
I'ma have to disagree with the pro-proxy sentiments, as I am a firm believer in real cards over fake cards. I'm not so hardcore into this belief that I won't let you play proxies, I just appreciate people willing to commit to their decks. If the card is in the way or you're testing or something, that's fine. But people who proxy cards they'll never buy, as opposed to people who proxy cards they're planning on buying, really push my buttons.
My pet peeve, as far as EDH goes, is uneven playgroups. This relates to the OP's issue, and the issues many people have with more powerful decks.
It is really hard to have fun when your deck is made up of cards you've collected over 10+ years of playing and your opponents play with Raging Goblins and Volcanic Hammers.
It really isn't fair to your opponents when you just casually crush them within a dozen turns and its not even close. Similarly, it really isn't fair to require you to dig through your collection to find the worst cards you didn't throw away and slap some suboptimal deck together. That may even the playing field, but its like going from playing soccer with your twenty-something friends to playing with a bunch of 5 year old kids. Its not nearly as fun or intellectually stimulating as competing against someone your own size.
My person belief on proxies is that you are testing to see if certain cards work in your deck, or plan on buying the cards once you have the extra money, then proxies are perfectly fine. I myself have proxies in two of my edh decks, and plan on buying all of the actual cards once that magical substance known as money materializes in the form of a paycheck. I never expect full color art proxies, but at the same time I do expect all of the text, casting costs, and name to copied verbatim. I should be able to look at a proxy without ever seeing the actual card, and be able to tell exactly what the card does. People who just proxy a bunch of cards in their decks so they can get by without ever buying them but still have really powerful cards in their decks are missing the point of playing edh.
Long drawn out games is my pet peeve. I've played with some folks who get ahead in creatures, but won't attack (but could do safely), and will just sit there. Then someone wipes the board and the process restarts. Games could end alot faster if people would just attack when they can.
I have no issues with proxies myself, i would rather have more people play using fake cards then less people play, i am also a firm believer that the fatness of your wallet should not effect your deck. I used to not proxy, now i only do for overpriced standard staples because seriously...
Long drawn out games is my pet peeve. I've played with some folks who get ahead in creatures, but won't attack (but could do safely), and will just sit there. Then someone wipes the board and the process restarts. Games could end alot faster if people would just attack when they can.
I agree 100% with this statement, once again just grow a pair and attack someone lol. I hate huge creature stalls cause everyone is too afraid to make a move.
I don't have many pet peeves when it comes to EDH. I love playing against any type of deck and I can have fun doing so. For the sake of social justice and peace of mind I don't use certain strategies in most decks that I play (ie I don't take extra turns, I don't mass land D, I don't mass permanent D, I don't mass Hand D, no infi combo, etc). These rules go out the window if I am playing someone competitively or if I am in an EDH tournament.
BUT there is one thing that made me RAGE quit a game and accidentally leave behind a Japanese foil which I refused to retrieve.
I was playing 3 player EDH. I piloted a 5 color child of alara with duals and the whole-nine-yards. A friend of mine (a girl, this will be important later) was playing Oona control. No combo finish, but it could make a ton of mana with coffers, vesuva, deserted temple, urborg, etc. The other guy at the table was playing Uril. Well we are a good 8-9 turns into the game. I have no board position because Oona just had a long turn full of Damnation, coffers and a ton of draw spells. Thankfully she tapped out on my turn to counter something so the way was all clear for Uril. He sticks his general and I think we can start getting the beat down on oona. Both Uril and I had two or three cards in hand as compared to oona's full grip. Oona untaps, casts general and mills me for five or six cards netting 0 tokens.
My turn comes and goes with a wimper. Then uril is up. He untaps, attempts to cast bear umbra on uril and oona counters it. Then he sticks runes of the deus. I am so happy. He can almost knock out oona. He goes to combat and turns uril sideways...
ATTACKING ME?!?!!?
I explained that she was the threat, but all he could hear were her two gigantic orb of dreams bouncing up and down, rhythmically.
I scooped to the attack and forgot to pick up my japanese foil charnelhorder wurm. To this day I haven't played another EDH game with him. It's like trying to logically argue with an irrational agent, which is impossible.
Ditto for gold bordered cards, also. After I realized the last couple of championship decks they printed had new borders, I snapped them up to get old cards in new frames. Now I've got an old-art Stifle is a new frame, which you flat-out cannot get in any other way, and if someone balks at the gold border, I laugh.
Really? What world championship deck had a Stifle in it? I run Voidslime and Trickbind already, I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a Stifle. And, of course, some other world championship decks. Do they still make older ones, like iirc, there was a Wildfire deck that got the world championship print treatment? Would love to get my hands on a Thran Dynamo and stuff from that...
I gotta say edh decks can get pretty expensive. And often times those expensive cards can be pretty fun.
In order.
Yea I said I don't like 45 counterspell decks. Thats entirely up to me. My group has people who play that deck for "just cause" reasons. That is what I don't like about it. Now, if you make that deck only to stop someone who made a more annoying deck *what ever that deck may be* then take it apart after they take theirs apart is A-OK with me. I don't see a problem with recommending this to people, I just won't play against people who play this deck.
I have no problem with the LD archetype, I was merely saying if you have a friend who is playing it and you don't like it then yea, go ahead talk to him if you really cannot deal with land D.
Exactly, I'm just saying learn to win without staples. You do not need revised duals or foil stifles to win in this format.
@ people complaining about combo:
I play a lot of combo, I think it's fine. Yes it is fun to connect like 3 cards in a 99 singleton deck. When I was playing dralnu Combo I would win pretty fast then I would just be like ok guys play it out and just left the game to let them finish.
Crappy Proxies bother me, unless it's for testing. I personally tested Grim Tutor for about 16 games before I made the determination that the one mana it saves over Diabolic Tutor was more often than not less valuable than the 3 life. This saved me 100 dollars.
However, I get a little miffed when people perma-proxy things like ABU duals, crypt, etc. and yes, it is exactly because I paid for mine and they are not paying for theirs. That said, if you make a sick, one of a kind custom art proxy, I'll be inclined to not say anything because of your time investment in the art.
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"I think EDH would be more fun for the majority of participants if players just showed eachother their decks rather than actually playing games out."
Crappy Proxies bother me, unless it's for testing. I personally tested Grim Tutor for about 16 games before I made the determination that the one mana it saves over Diabolic Tutor was more often than not less valuable than the 3 life. This saved me 100 dollars.
However, I get a little miffed when people perma-proxy things like ABU duals, crypt, etc. and yes, it is exactly because I paid for mine and they are not paying for theirs. That said, if you make a sick, one of a kind custom art proxy, I'll be inclined to not say anything because of your time investment in the art.
I don't mind proxies so long as (1) you own a copy of the card and it's in some other deck or (2) you're testing it out and have a real intention of getting the card if it works.
I've got a wide variety of edh decks from incredibly unfun (v-clique) to fun for me (iname, wort the raidmother), and just randomly amusing (teneb, wort, boggart aunti) - the biggest problem is that people tend to know I have a few good decks and end up ganging up on me when I play something that's very casual or meant to be fun. ...or they'll just play some spell like bribery on Teneb allowing them to look through the deck for 5 minutes. Then they'll just sit around and destroy/counter whatever the 'actual' threats are in the deck. Another fun example is a recurring jester's cap and/or Sadistic Sacrament.
Table politics also drive me nuts, but sometimes you have to teach people a lesson. I had a jhoira deck based on taking lots of turns (no mass destruction, just UR fun)...and everyone hadn't really seen anything. So I suspend Thought Reflection and Wheel of Fortune. Niv-Mizzet knows what that means and desperately tries to kill me...but everyone else at the table wanted a full hand of 7 cards...so they killed Niv-Mizzet. Of course, they didn't realize that a UR deck drawing 14 cards = win on the spot.
Problem now is that I've got a permanent target on my back no matter what I make. It could be a random janky deck that's entertaining like Zirilan of the Claw and as soon as I play the guy I've got the entire table falling over each other to oblation, arrest, otherwise deal with the guy, or flashing in aven mindcensor (I mean, I am playing mono red, not like it's hard to deal with the guy if there are 5 people at the table...)...but it's totally cool for some kid to have Maelstrom Archangel on the table at the same time (ie, turn 4). Of course this degenerates into Maelstrom Archangel double striking me and playing time spiral and relentless assault...then I get eat double-strike again for some random card I forget and time stretch.
guess I need to play something completely random and unrelated to my general.
/agree with politics. They are ok, but when they are abused it's really annoying. Like I really like the power generals they tend to make better decks. Though, one of the guys in my group is too good at convincing people that simply because I have a good deck I should be targeted no matter what the situation *usually so he doesn't and then wins* Maybe it's because people understand that my decks can win and all he has to say is "Look he has mana and cards in his hand he's gonna win!" then I get sh*t on by 3 people at once.
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Standard: Esper Spirits-WUB
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
Sirlin's Playing to Win series gets quoted without proper context a lot. One thing he emphasizes is that playing to win is not for every circumstance. Another is that EDH is known to be a grossly unbalanced format, kept in check by social mores. He's actually very right with regard to what he was writing about, i.e. competitive gameplay.
Ah, see, I never read any of those qualifiers, only the story he told about Street Fighter scrubs getting owned by pros and complaining about it, and it was so painfully obvious that he was confusing his categories that I didn't bother reading any further. His main argument seemed to be 'The moves that scrubs complain about are legit because they're in the game and they help you win, and playing against them forces you to improve which in turn helps you win more.' The flaw, of course, was that he seemed to assume that winning was the ultimate goal for everybody, and teased the scrubs for acting in a way that didn't help them achieve the goal he assumed they had. Of course, he's right when it comes to tournaments etc, because then the goal for everybody is to win, that's why everybody's there, so anything goes.
I agree that compromise--or just playing with people that want to play the way you do--is the only way EDH can work. But I disagree with the terminology "casual" player.
The point of "competative" play is to win first, have fun second. Hence the name--it invokes the spirit of competition that these players enjoy.
The point of "casual" play is to have fun first, and win second. My question is: why does this make me casual? [snip]
So, I refer to "casual" play as Fun play, because Fun is the main purpose--just like competition is the main purpose for competative play. "Casual" implies that we aren't serious about the game. How the hell am I a "casual" player when I spend hours building themed EDH decks, and the kid who decklists some stupid, boring build and then combos out is a "competative" player? The implication in this terminology is that he takes the game more seriously than me, and this is wrong.
I'm pretty sure we agree. I put quote marks around 'casual' in my post because it's a convenient label that everyone understands, but I don't think it's a good word in itself. What I disagree with is the word 'fun'. I think it's misleading; everybody plays Magic for fun. There's no distinction between those who play for fun and those who play to win, because the people who play to win find winning fun. If they weren't having fun they wouldn't play. So the distinction is not to do with playing for fun or playing to win, it's to do with what you find fun about Magic, i.e. what you enjoy. Both groups get grumpy when their method of enjoyment is frustrated; Spike hates building suboptimal decks (he enjoys winning and optimal decks = more winning), and Timmy/Johnny hate it when they get locked out or subjected to a sudden infinite game-winning combo. The challenge for players is to create an environment where, if you'll allow me to channel Aristotle for a second, everybody can pursue their own conception of the good.
1) people untapping after I attack. It's not your turn yet.
2) people not keeping track of life, counters, etc. I always bring a huge bag of dice and a few coins so I know if you're dead or not, but it gets old always playing score keeper.
3) when someone plays emrakul two or three times with no gaurantee of doing it again but a good chance they will. After watching you play for a half hour I assume you would have finished playing out the infinite combo
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Hear hear, my friend. That's exactly what I thought, except in a slightly more subdued tone.
More to the point: people who don't keep track of how many times they have castes their generals. It always leads to an argument. It's so simple. Please do it.
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This a thousand times, just grow a pair and attack someone, i will refuse to roll when this comes up.
Also at Kramit26:
You contradict yourself a lot here...just sayin.
And
I gotta say edh decks can get pretty expensive. And often times those expensive cards can be pretty fun.
Sharuum the Hegemon
Mayael the Anima
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Sliver Overlord
Drana Kalastria Bloodchief
99 mountain Ashling
This is one of my pet peeves as well. So many people in my playgroup do this and its really annoying.
Constant land destruction is my major peeve. While yes, it is a legitimate strategy, its the most cowardly way of winning the game. All it shows me is that you're too terrified to actually play against my deck. Its like camping spawning points in an FPS, cowardly, but you win... I guess.
Another is countering everything I try to do. One guy in my playgroup runs a Vorosh, the Hunter control deck. ALL it does (and I'm not exaggerating) is ramp, counter, and swing with Vorosh. That is the mission to the deck. 10+ ramp, 25+ counter spells (no kidding, I asked him), and some regrowth effects. And he wonders why I refuse to play him games...
BGGlissaGB
BROliviaRB
It gets on my nerve least because it is often indicative of "blind netdecking" but because I feel that at the very least, players should know about the rules surrounding their own cards.
When i lose to someone playing an average deck, i look back through the match, realizing what i should've done, or what i could've done to prevent the loss. However there is such a narrow answer to combos. Either have the Krosan Grip in hand (if it's an artifact/enchantment combo), or start running blue, and run counter spells.
It's really really stupid when those are my options. I'm encouraged to make a better deck when i lose to someone who overran with a huge amount of tokens, or someone who locked me down, or someone who beats down with general damage, every color has that ability to get out of it- but do i really just have to join the club and play blue every game now?
I'm not saying i can't win without a primeval titan or mind sculptors or revised dual lands, but it would be 10x better if i did have the extra money that some people have.
This, but differently than you described it. I hate it when they take 10 minutes for a demonic tutor - you've played your deck enough, you should know what's in it, and what's the best choice before you even tap the mana.
Also on the rest of what you said - it's nice to have a judge that plays with you
The moral, I guess, is let people play. Nothing that anyone can do in-game can make them a "douche-bag."
Man, that brings up another pet peeve, though it isn't EDH specific: losing to the sheer power of recent creatures and hosers for noncreature strategies -- specifically, stuff like Bojuka Bog and Leyline of Sanctity. I love these cards to death, but sometimes it's really annoying that WotC prints such low-opportunity-cost hosers for strategies that aren't about bumping creatures into each other.
Bojuka Bog -- Tormod's Crypt at least costs you a card and a spell slot in your deck. Bojuka Bog makes you lose to my land drop, pre-sideboard -- play more creatures, kthx.
Leyline of Sanctity -- Oh, you're playing a burn deck? Now you can't possibly win, ever. On turn zero, for zero mana. Good thing red can't kill enchantments, amirite?!
Maybe they're just balancing out the fact that they printed stuff like Moat a while back, but then again it's rare to see a Moat because it costs hundreds of dollars while even your friend's new Naya 5-power-or-greater deck probably splashes for Bojuka Bog. I just like some breathing room when it comes to deckbuilding, that's all.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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You mean 7 years earlier?
Sirlin's Playing to Win series gets quoted without proper context a lot. One thing he emphasizes is that playing to win is not for every circumstance. Another is that EDH is known to be a grossly unbalanced format, kept in check by social mores. He's actually very right with regard to what he was writing about, i.e. competitive gameplay.
My pet peeves:
Targetting of players because of the player's reputation, not their deck/position.
Mass LD without a clear method to win (hint: Desolation Angel will not go all the way against 3 people).
Generals that search. You're going to go for the same stuff every time, and it gets old.
I agree that compromise--or just playing with people that want to play the way you do--is the only way EDH can work. But I disagree with the terminology "casual" player.
The point of "competative" play is to win first, have fun second. Hence the name--it invokes the spirit of competition that these players enjoy.
The point of "casual" play is to have fun first, and win second. My question is: why does this make me casual? I'm as hardcore into Magic as they come. I've been playing since Fallen Empires in 1994. I played standard for years and wrote articles on building your own original decks in that format too. Hell, I just wrote and defended a 130 page thesis for my Masters in sociology on the social importance of Magic subculture this summer. But I'm a "casual" player?
So, I refer to "casual" play as Fun play, because Fun is the main purpose--just like competition is the main purpose for competative play. "Casual" implies that we aren't serious about the game. How the hell am I a "casual" player when I spend hours building themed EDH decks, and the kid who decklists some stupid, boring build and then combos out is a "competative" player? The implication in this terminology is that he takes the game more seriously than me, and this is wrong.
I agree very strongly with Nideovinja. I think EDH is a really cheap format... if you've been playing for awhile and have a collection to draw upon. I got back into magic after a looong hiatus, so when I make an EDH deck, I have to buy every single card, and there's nothing cheap about even non-competitive EDH decks. I think my cheapest (mono-red!) was in the maybe $60-$80 range, but every other deck I've got cost easily over $100 or $200. And I proxy!
I also used to make high quality proxies that were indistinguishable from a distance, but I've recently had much more fun putting my rusty photoshop skills to use and making my own digital alters. My Chains of Mephistopheles is below. If I'm going to proxy a card, I put time and effort into it, and most everyone I know enjoys/doesn't mind the alters. But yeah the occasional, 'Oh, uh... I dunno man... it's a proxy...' just makes me stare. I can more than afford any card I want- but I'm not spending a boatload of cash on an ancient card with bad art, or a hot new card that will plummet once it leaves standard.
Ditto for gold bordered cards, also. After I realized the last couple of championship decks they printed had new borders, I snapped them up to get old cards in new frames. Now I've got an old-art Stifle is a new frame, which you flat-out cannot get in any other way, and if someone balks at the gold border, I laugh.
BRRakdos, Lord of RiotsBR
It is really hard to have fun when your deck is made up of cards you've collected over 10+ years of playing and your opponents play with Raging Goblins and Volcanic Hammers.
It really isn't fair to your opponents when you just casually crush them within a dozen turns and its not even close. Similarly, it really isn't fair to require you to dig through your collection to find the worst cards you didn't throw away and slap some suboptimal deck together. That may even the playing field, but its like going from playing soccer with your twenty-something friends to playing with a bunch of 5 year old kids. Its not nearly as fun or intellectually stimulating as competing against someone your own size.
---
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
WUB Sharuum, the Hegemon
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest
I agree 100% with this statement, once again just grow a pair and attack someone lol. I hate huge creature stalls cause everyone is too afraid to make a move.
Sharuum the Hegemon
Mayael the Anima
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Sliver Overlord
Drana Kalastria Bloodchief
99 mountain Ashling
BUT there is one thing that made me RAGE quit a game and accidentally leave behind a Japanese foil which I refused to retrieve.
I was playing 3 player EDH. I piloted a 5 color child of alara with duals and the whole-nine-yards. A friend of mine (a girl, this will be important later) was playing Oona control. No combo finish, but it could make a ton of mana with coffers, vesuva, deserted temple, urborg, etc. The other guy at the table was playing Uril. Well we are a good 8-9 turns into the game. I have no board position because Oona just had a long turn full of Damnation, coffers and a ton of draw spells. Thankfully she tapped out on my turn to counter something so the way was all clear for Uril. He sticks his general and I think we can start getting the beat down on oona. Both Uril and I had two or three cards in hand as compared to oona's full grip. Oona untaps, casts general and mills me for five or six cards netting 0 tokens.
My turn comes and goes with a wimper. Then uril is up. He untaps, attempts to cast bear umbra on uril and oona counters it. Then he sticks runes of the deus. I am so happy. He can almost knock out oona. He goes to combat and turns uril sideways...
ATTACKING ME?!?!!?
I explained that she was the threat, but all he could hear were her two gigantic orb of dreams bouncing up and down, rhythmically.
I scooped to the attack and forgot to pick up my japanese foil charnelhorder wurm. To this day I haven't played another EDH game with him. It's like trying to logically argue with an irrational agent, which is impossible.
Really? What world championship deck had a Stifle in it? I run Voidslime and Trickbind already, I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a Stifle. And, of course, some other world championship decks. Do they still make older ones, like iirc, there was a Wildfire deck that got the world championship print treatment? Would love to get my hands on a Thran Dynamo and stuff from that...
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
In order.
Yea I said I don't like 45 counterspell decks. Thats entirely up to me. My group has people who play that deck for "just cause" reasons. That is what I don't like about it. Now, if you make that deck only to stop someone who made a more annoying deck *what ever that deck may be* then take it apart after they take theirs apart is A-OK with me. I don't see a problem with recommending this to people, I just won't play against people who play this deck.
I have no problem with the LD archetype, I was merely saying if you have a friend who is playing it and you don't like it then yea, go ahead talk to him if you really cannot deal with land D.
Exactly, I'm just saying learn to win without staples. You do not need revised duals or foil stifles to win in this format.
@ people complaining about combo:
I play a lot of combo, I think it's fine. Yes it is fun to connect like 3 cards in a 99 singleton deck. When I was playing dralnu Combo I would win pretty fast then I would just be like ok guys play it out and just left the game to let them finish.
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
However, I get a little miffed when people perma-proxy things like ABU duals, crypt, etc. and yes, it is exactly because I paid for mine and they are not paying for theirs. That said, if you make a sick, one of a kind custom art proxy, I'll be inclined to not say anything because of your time investment in the art.
I don't mind proxies so long as (1) you own a copy of the card and it's in some other deck or (2) you're testing it out and have a real intention of getting the card if it works.
I've got a wide variety of edh decks from incredibly unfun (v-clique) to fun for me (iname, wort the raidmother), and just randomly amusing (teneb, wort, boggart aunti) - the biggest problem is that people tend to know I have a few good decks and end up ganging up on me when I play something that's very casual or meant to be fun. ...or they'll just play some spell like bribery on Teneb allowing them to look through the deck for 5 minutes. Then they'll just sit around and destroy/counter whatever the 'actual' threats are in the deck. Another fun example is a recurring jester's cap and/or Sadistic Sacrament.
Table politics also drive me nuts, but sometimes you have to teach people a lesson. I had a jhoira deck based on taking lots of turns (no mass destruction, just UR fun)...and everyone hadn't really seen anything. So I suspend Thought Reflection and Wheel of Fortune. Niv-Mizzet knows what that means and desperately tries to kill me...but everyone else at the table wanted a full hand of 7 cards...so they killed Niv-Mizzet. Of course, they didn't realize that a UR deck drawing 14 cards = win on the spot.
Problem now is that I've got a permanent target on my back no matter what I make. It could be a random janky deck that's entertaining like Zirilan of the Claw and as soon as I play the guy I've got the entire table falling over each other to oblation, arrest, otherwise deal with the guy, or flashing in aven mindcensor (I mean, I am playing mono red, not like it's hard to deal with the guy if there are 5 people at the table...)...but it's totally cool for some kid to have Maelstrom Archangel on the table at the same time (ie, turn 4). Of course this degenerates into Maelstrom Archangel double striking me and playing time spiral and relentless assault...then I get eat double-strike again for some random card I forget and time stretch.
guess I need to play something completely random and unrelated to my general.
Trade/Sell me your Demonic Attorney!
/agree with politics. They are ok, but when they are abused it's really annoying. Like I really like the power generals they tend to make better decks. Though, one of the guys in my group is too good at convincing people that simply because I have a good deck I should be targeted no matter what the situation *usually so he doesn't and then wins* Maybe it's because people understand that my decks can win and all he has to say is "Look he has mana and cards in his hand he's gonna win!" then I get sh*t on by 3 people at once.
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
Ah, see, I never read any of those qualifiers, only the story he told about Street Fighter scrubs getting owned by pros and complaining about it, and it was so painfully obvious that he was confusing his categories that I didn't bother reading any further. His main argument seemed to be 'The moves that scrubs complain about are legit because they're in the game and they help you win, and playing against them forces you to improve which in turn helps you win more.' The flaw, of course, was that he seemed to assume that winning was the ultimate goal for everybody, and teased the scrubs for acting in a way that didn't help them achieve the goal he assumed they had. Of course, he's right when it comes to tournaments etc, because then the goal for everybody is to win, that's why everybody's there, so anything goes.
I'm pretty sure we agree. I put quote marks around 'casual' in my post because it's a convenient label that everyone understands, but I don't think it's a good word in itself. What I disagree with is the word 'fun'. I think it's misleading; everybody plays Magic for fun. There's no distinction between those who play for fun and those who play to win, because the people who play to win find winning fun. If they weren't having fun they wouldn't play. So the distinction is not to do with playing for fun or playing to win, it's to do with what you find fun about Magic, i.e. what you enjoy. Both groups get grumpy when their method of enjoyment is frustrated; Spike hates building suboptimal decks (he enjoys winning and optimal decks = more winning), and Timmy/Johnny hate it when they get locked out or subjected to a sudden infinite game-winning combo. The challenge for players is to create an environment where, if you'll allow me to channel Aristotle for a second, everybody can pursue their own conception of the good.
2) people not keeping track of life, counters, etc. I always bring a huge bag of dice and a few coins so I know if you're dead or not, but it gets old always playing score keeper.
3) when someone plays emrakul two or three times with no gaurantee of doing it again but a good chance they will. After watching you play for a half hour I assume you would have finished playing out the infinite combo