I don't like people who take the format seriously. Sure its ok to pimp out your deck with the best cards, but don't play tier one all the time. I don't want to see EDH become a format like standard *shivers*. I'm hoping EDH never gets sanctioned.
I also don't like when people target you for no reason.
"Hey, you're just sittin there. you're gonna win. Im gonna attack you."
"Sure. I've got nothing to play in my hand and Zur over there is comboing off."
And then they expect you to take out Zur. HAHA!
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"Have you ever tried running with a grape suit on? Then you haven't lived!"
-Squee (my friend's nickname, not the goblin.)
Minions in multiplayer matches. You know, the people who never really think for themselves, but just sit there and do the bidding of one other person the whole match.
I will 2nd this one, this is the main reason i refuse to play 1v1v1, it always ends up 2v1. Im fine with teaming up in large ffas though because usually everyone has alliances and it makes the game very political which i enjoy, but if someone is only there to help one other guy it ruins the game imo. Alliances leave tons of room to do stuff, teams do not.
I love how most of the complaints here are either 'I hate infinite combos' or 'I hate people who complain about my infinite combos'.
Seriously, you guys are looking for different things from this game. Trying to get Spikes to, as they would see it, play or build their decks suboptimally, is not going to end in smiles because you're taking the fun out of the game for them. Similarly, trying to get Timmy/Johnny/casual types to spend more money, time, and effort on EDH so they can compete with the kinds of things Spikes want to do will not end in smiles because all these people want to do is cast their ridiculous spells without being locked out by Spike with Winter Orb.
Personally, I lean towards the Timmy/Johnny side, but short of forming separate playgroups for the two sides, some flexibility is needed from everyone. I'm normally fine with whatever you do as long as I can cast my spells - I don't mean having them countered, I mean being locked down with the aforementioned Winter Orb, or Yosei, the Morning Star, or Mindslaver. Spikes, if people in your playgroup complain about these kinds of cards, you can probably have fun without running these kinds of cards. Similarly, casual players, most answers in EDH are so cheap monetarily that there's no excuse for not improving your deck to deal with Spike if he keeps winning.
My biggest pet peeve is all the people that complain about decks or strategies being too competitive or unfun, similarly when people ban a person from playing a deck or just stop playing with that person.
Ridiculous. EDH, Magic and gaming in general is a co-operative enterprise. It's not like you have a right to sit down and do whatever you want. If you're not contributing to the shared goal of the group, they have every right to stop playing with you. You can't demand that people play games with you - they have to want to play with you, and if they're not getting anything out of the experience, then they won't want anything to do with you, gaming-wise.
I guess my EDH pet peeve is when people either whine or have unnecessary knee-jerk reactions to certain cards or strategies -- this comes from both serious-face and casual players.
"You're not playing blue in your Sygg, River Cutthroat deck? L 2 PLAY NOOB"
"You're playing blue? Better attack him, everyone."
"You're ganging up on me when I haven't even set up my Stasis lock yet? JEEZ"
"You ended the game with a combo on turn 15? RAAAGE"
There is a lot more to Magic than what you think. I'm not going to pretend like I never get upset (I do), but I at least made a point to ask my playgroup to do me a favor: if they ever see me get mad over a game of Magic, punch me in the nose. I'm kind of glad they haven't had the heart to follow through
Quote from Synchestra »
Ridiculous. EDH, Magic and gaming in general is a co-operative enterprise. It's not like you have a right to sit down and do whatever you want. If you're not contributing to the shared goal of the group, they have every right to stop playing with you. You can't demand that people play games with you - they have to want to play with you, and if they're not getting anything out of the experience, then they won't want anything to do with you, gaming-wise.
I agree, but at the same time you have to realize that at least some EDH players who "ban" or shun other people from their playgroup aren't exactly being objective. They've already been the victim of too many actual DB plays, or have read too many overzealous "Spirit of EDH" posts on dragonhighlander.net, or whatever, and they sometimes direct that frustration/animosity at someone who may not actually deserve it.
I agree, but at the same time you have to realize that at least some EDH players who "ban" or shun other people from their playgroup aren't exactly being objective. They've already been the victim of too many actual DB plays, or have read too many overzealous "Spirit of EDH" posts on dragonhighlander.net, or whatever, and they sometimes direct that frustration/animosity at someone who may not actually deserve it.
Any kind of social exclusion (especially in gaming, which really should be all-inclusive) is a nasty affair. However, if someone repeatedly violates the norms or trust of the group and won't concede to making changes in their behavior, they shouldn't be surprised that they aren't invited back.
The only way to really deal with it fairly is to have an attempt at group consensus and expectations. My friends and I house rule the hell out of EDH (we don't play with general damage), and we vote on particularly problematic matters--I mean we even voted to accept the M10 rules changes (we did, thank goodness). And if a group of friends can't comprise on EDH rules, standards of behavior, or expectations of fairness and fun, well then they probably have bigger issues to deal with than whether or not it's okay to combo out.
On an unrelated note, something that does irk me a little is this pervasive idea of "casual" EDH. I'm inclined to refer to "casual" EDH as "Fun" EDH.
I mean I take EDH way more seriously than some dude who just copies a combo deck online and gets it off by turn 5. And how is that enjoyable for anyone? Combo players, is it even fun for you? If so, is your temporary and fleeting fun at winning an arbitrary card game worth the expense of the potential fun had by an entire game played between interestingly themed and crafted decks?
I think that caring about aspects of the game OTHER than winning doesn't make you a casual player. Anyone can buy "staple" cards, figure out broken combos, and ruin a game night; doing this doesn't make you special. It takes a real man to make a Baron Sengir deck that's fun, flavorful, and can actually win a game WITHOUT taking infinite turns or doing something equally stupid.
On an unrelated note, something that does irk me a little is this pervasive idea of "casual" EDH. I'm inclined to refer to "casual" EDH as "Fun" EDH.
I mean I take EDH way more seriously than some dude who just copies a combo deck online and gets it off by turn 5. And how is that enjoyable for anyone? Combo players, is it even fun for you? If so, is your temporary and fleeting fun at winning an arbitrary card game worth the expense of the potential fun had by an entire game played between interestingly themed and crafted decks?
I think that caring about aspects of the game OTHER than winning doesn't make you a casual player. Anyone can buy "staple" cards, figure out broken combos, and ruin a game night; doing this doesn't make you special. It takes a real man to make a Baron Sengir deck that's fun, flavorful, and can actually win a game WITHOUT taking infinite turns or doing something equally stupid.
I would argue that caring about things other than winning makes you casual by definition. As far as I'm aware 'casual' means that you play for fun, not necessarily to win. I think you are giving the word negative connotations that it just does not have.
Teneb the Harvester and Sharuum the Hegemon. Just tired of facing those generals all the time and each list I play against is the same within eight to nine cards.
I'm also not a fan of the excuse 'because I can'. 'Hey, why'd you target that guy's Lord of Extinction with Vindicate when that guy over there is about to combo out with his Sharuum the Hegemon?' ...'because I can?'. It's a common attitude at my tables, as is 'oh well'. Just wish people would think a little more about their plays before they make them.
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Commander:
UWG Jenara, Asura of War BUG The Mimeoplasm B Geth, Lord of the Vault
Ridiculous. EDH, Magic and gaming in general is a co-operative enterprise. It's not like you have a right to sit down and do whatever you want. If you're not contributing to the shared goal of the group, they have every right to stop playing with you. You can't demand that people play games with you - they have to want to play with you, and if they're not getting anything out of the experience, then they won't want anything to do with you, gaming-wise.
I was more referring to people who just do it on a whim so to speak, there is a difference between being a db and playing a good deck and many people mistake the two. If a person is nothing but a db and refuses to compromise then ya do whatever you want, but if they just like to whip out a good deck that you may have trouble beating or dont like on a personal level (like ld) then the answer is not to ban it/them. But i do not want this to turn into another of "those" threads so that is as far as i will defend my opinion.
Another pet peeve is when people wait till the last possible second to tutor or something in a casual game, i get it is optimal to do it then but it really just wastes time in casual usually. And for that matter i also hate people who play a tutor then take 5 minutes or more to pick something...really? Learn your deck.
Combo players, is it even fun for you? If so, is your temporary and fleeting fun at winning an arbitrary card game worth the expense of the potential fun had by an entire game played between interestingly themed and crafted decks?
Also yes and yes. But i would never do it all the time.
Any kind of social exclusion (especially in gaming, which really should be all-inclusive) is a nasty affair. However, if someone repeatedly violates the norms or trust of the group and won't concede to making changes in their behavior, they shouldn't be surprised that they aren't invited back.
I'm not sure we really disagree. You're more than welcome to have house rules, and you're more than welcome to ask those who join you to abide by those. If someone repeatedly violates the trust or accepted behavior of the playgroup, then that doesn't exactly leave you a lot of options, does it? I just have a problem with the policy of those playgroups or individuals that get upset (I mean, actually angry) the first time someone violates that norm.
For example, if you and your playgroup are looking forward to a semi-long EDH game with no mass land destruction or whatever, and then the new guy blows up the world with Jhoira and wins on turn 6 or 7, then don't ban him or his deck. Similarly, don't shun the guy for an hour while you say, "Good job, now we're gonna play for second place." Give him the benefit of the doubt, let him know the policies of your playgroup, and then he'll be accountable in the future. (I'm not accusing your playgroup; I'm just giving an example)
I would argue that caring about things other than winning makes you casual by definition. As far as I'm aware 'casual' means that you play for fun, not necessarily to win. I think you are giving the word negative connotations that it just does not have.
In other words, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
On an unrelated note, something that does irk me a little is this pervasive idea of "casual" EDH. I'm inclined to refer to "casual" EDH as "Fun" EDH.
I mean I take EDH way more seriously than some dude who just copies a combo deck online and gets it off by turn 5. And how is that enjoyable for anyone? Combo players, is it even fun for you? If so, is your temporary and fleeting fun at winning an arbitrary card game worth the expense of the potential fun had by an entire game played between interestingly themed and crafted decks?
I think that caring about aspects of the game OTHER than winning doesn't make you a casual player. Anyone can buy "staple" cards, figure out broken combos, and ruin a game night; doing this doesn't make you special. It takes a real man to make a Baron Sengir deck that's fun, flavorful, and can actually win a game WITHOUT taking infinite turns or doing something equally stupid.
I completely agree with this. Maybe it's just my Johnny/Spike nature, or my limited budget, but I've always loved giving myself certain obstacles/limitations when making a deck (my current ones for my EDH decks are "absolutely no infinite combos within my deck" (harder than you'd think) and "cards printed during or after 8th edition" (note this still allows Duel Deck cards, FTV cards, etc.))
It's quite fun to create something like this as it's unique, original, and powerful yet not overpowered.
Well, I believe there are two clearly formed groups that have emerged out of this conversation; the casual and the competitive. While there is some variaton as to the clear cut definition of each, I think the two types can be generally accepted as:
Casual players like to play for fun, without the goal of nessisarily winning in mind, having a deckbuilding mentality with a strong emphasis on theme or mechanic, despite not having the greatest cards in the decklist, but with cool and interesting effects that don't always happen in day to day MTG EDH.
Competitive players, while fun is obviously still the primary goal (otherwise it just ain't MTG), they emphasize on winning through the thrill of victory or the euphoria of crushing ones opponents through any and all means available, whether it be a quick and desisive combo, or Emerukal on turn 4, or a mechanic that can be abused to the point of broken.
Both are MTG. Both are EDH. Both can be FUN...when played within their respective play groups. Now, I get my head bitten off for making such generalizations about the way people may like to play the game, I will admit to being bias towards the casual side of the game. I've tried to be unbias, but if it seems not to be the case to someone, post your comments and I'll try to reword my 'generalizations' so as to not offend anyones prefered preference.
ps. I also think this is the type of thread where, if you agree with my generalizations, to go back to your first post made in this thread and edit them with a simple "Casual" or "Competitive" at the top of the post; for some stats crunching.
I'm not sure we really disagree. You're more than welcome to have house rules, and you're more than welcome to ask those who join you to abide by those. If someone repeatedly violates the trust or accepted behavior of the playgroup, then that doesn't exactly leave you a lot of options, does it? I just have a problem with the policy of those playgroups or individuals that get upset (I mean, actually angry) the first time someone violates that norm.
Yup, I am on board with you. There's been a couple times where someone new shows up with a Uril, the Miststalker deck or combos out early or something, and it's not a big deal--in fact I'd rather it happen early instead of late in the game. When that does happen, we generally ask them to play with something else, and I let them sift through my dozen or so EDH decks for one they'll like. Everyone gets a certain amount of leeway for infinite combos as well. After all, if your combo gets set up and goes off on turn 20, that's not much different than me crapping out 30 saprolings and Pallid Mycoderming for the win.
I think if people go nuts because of one single game they lost quickly, when there are clearly opportunities for more games--well, there are bigger issues at hand.
Still, getting combo'd out on always sucks a little.
I would argue that caring about things other than winning makes you casual by definition. As far as I'm aware 'casual' means that you play for fun, not necessarily to win. I think you are giving the word negative connotations that it just does not have.
But "casual" does carry certain connotations. The underlying implication is that we somehow take the game less seriously than "competitive" players.
It's not that I don't care about winning--hell, I love winning! But I care about other aspects of Magic as well, and I don't care about winning so much that I'll do it at any cost.
My desire to win on my terms, using decks of my creations and setting my own limitations means that sometimes I lose games. But I'd rather lose a close, hard-fought game that was fun, engaging and riveting than win a blowout any day of the week, and I think it's silly that makes me a "casual" player. If anything, casual players are the ones who aren't willing to put enough time and creative energy into making unique decks of their own.
I get bugged a lot when someone sees my one edh deck and refuses to play because its mono blue. Its one thing if it was one on one as it is very strong that way but when you think I have the power to control 5-7 other people at the same time? They seem to think that I don't know how to play a control deck politically in multiplayer.
Another thing, when I play that deck and they complain when I do, I have no problem switching. My Omnath, Locus of Mana kicks the **** out of my Thada Adel, Acquisitor deck. Then the person won't complain when I turn 4-5 attack with a million 80/80 squirrels, but once I Last Word your kill everything card in turn 17-19. Or something irrelevant like playing Leyline of Anticipation with 2 cards in hand. I'm sorry but I hardly see why this is way worse than a million squirrels 15 turns before then.
Well, magus - does the word squirrel inspire fear in you? That's why.
On a more serious note - i dislike it when people complain that i torched their Tolarian Academy or Cabal Coffers, particularly when i flash Obliterate and tell them how much worse it could have been.
I also dont like it when someone Mass LDs without having a win-condition on the board. By win condition - i mean RIGHT NOW, not after you combo off in a few turns, or worse - input a lock onto the field.
Going towards the casual/competetive player arguement - here are my defenitions:
If a player is, during that game, playing just for fun, and purposefully doesnt utilize any infinite combos or lock-downs (even if they might have it in the deck) they are Casual.
If a player is, during that game, playing to win, and sure, even for fun, and crack open lockdowns and infinite combos freely - they are Competetive.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
I dislike:
- People who roll dice to choose their target (just... hold on to it, man. It'll still be good next turn, when there's a threat to deal with).
- People who talk out loud about their options and over-dramatise the threat that a card poses to the rest of the table ("Well, I could play Llanowar Elves, or I could play Sakura-Tribe elder, which is going to be pre-tty nasty next turn when I untap with one more land than you guys...")
- Poor communication ("We're playing casually today." "Ok... I untap and combowtfbbq". "It's a competitive game, with honour and bragging rights at stake". "Is it cool if I play my theme deck based on the popular anime series I've been watching? I wrote this detailed backstory explaining how each card links up to a popular character, episode or fanfic".)
- Religious Wars over EDH (I'm so, so guilty of this.)
People who roll a die to decide who to attack thinking it makes you a nicer person. This just makes you look dumb.
People who just completely decimate your field near the beginning of the game and then alpha strike you in the same turn. I think that just removes the fun of the game for that one person while he waits for a new game. I am not talking about a deck that is over powered or has a good board position.
I would argue that caring about things other than winning makes you casual by definition. As far as I'm aware 'casual' means that you play for fun, not necessarily to win. I think you are giving the word negative connotations that it just does not have.
I really think the word 'fun' is unhelpful here. Casual players are in no way opposed to winning, and Spikes, I assume, find winning 'fun'. Winning and fun are in no way mutually exclusive, which is why there's so much confusion/argument about casual vs competitive, especially in EDH. I think there's a better way of looking at it:
Magic players play Magic for enjoyment. It seems trivially true that very few people would play any game if they didn't enjoy doing so. Obviously, different people derive enjoyment from the game in different ways. People who play what we call 'competitive' decks derive enjoyment from the result of the game - the win. So, naturally, they optimise their decks to give them the greatest possible chance of deriving the most enjoyment from each game. This may include infinite combos, lockdown, and the like, which are fair game because they increase enjoyment for the player.
People who play 'casual' decks derive enjoyment from the process of playing the game. This includes winning, but also a whole host of other things - big plays, cool interactions, fat beats. 'Casual' players enjoy these things in and of themselves, whereas 'competitive' players view them as a means to an end. Naturally, 'casual' players don't like it when their enjoyment is frustrated by being locked out of the game.
So you have a situation where players derive enjoyment from different aspects of the game. The solution is not for 'competitive' players to play suboptimally, or for 'casual' players to suck it up and play Clique, but for each group to have a bit of maturity and realise that playing games by definition is not all about them, but involves other people who need to enjoy themselves if they are to keep playing. Compromise is the name of the game here.
P.S: the above is also why 'play to win' Street Fighter guy who was popular a while about was so horribly wrong about everything.
1. 36 land, artifact accel, few beaters, some control magic, and 45 counterspells, Teferi. C'mon let's actually play magic people...
2. People who abuse politics. Politics is ok and even makes the game more interesting... But seriously... redirecting everyones attention to one player every game on turn one. The idea should be go after the person who is about to win not the person who can win *cause honestly everyone should be able to win*
3. People who complain about their general or deck every game but don't do anything about it.
4. People who complain about land destruction. It's a full archetype get over it. If someone is playing Red White just to play every land D avail then yea kinda annoying and have a talk with them. Otherwise, play like a smart EDH player and put some friggin' artifact accel in your deck.
5. "I can't afford the cards." simply... just stop playing magic then, it's EDH it's most oftenly the LEAST expensive format in Magic next to limited. Be a creative son of a b***h and win abstractly there are so many good cards to pick from.
6. People who complain about combo decks. Yea they are annoying and I love my combo as much as anyone maybe more, but soon they will get over it and take it apart. If they don't then build the deck listed in pet peeve 1.
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Standard: Esper Spirits-WUB
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
I don't mind a combo win, hell I play infinite combos in most of my decks. What bothers me is combos like Leyline of the Void/Helm of ObedienceGrim Monolith/Power artifact. Power artifact and Helm of Obedience are worthless without their counterparts. It indicates that the combo is there simply for the sake of the combo and nothing else. If you're gonna combo off do so with cards that are actually good on their own.
1. People that forget to untap (unless if they're a new player. I'll allow it a couple times)
2. People spouting off the wrong rules or misusing an ability. Such as saying that Trample even applies when the creature is defending and being very confident that they're right. Get even more annoyed when they do it to a new player.
I also don't like when people target you for no reason.
"Hey, you're just sittin there. you're gonna win. Im gonna attack you."
"Sure. I've got nothing to play in my hand and Zur over there is comboing off."
And then they expect you to take out Zur. HAHA!
-Squee (my friend's nickname, not the goblin.)
Favorite EDH Decks:
RBG Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
W Kemba, Kha Regent
R Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker
Emmara Tandris
I will 2nd this one, this is the main reason i refuse to play 1v1v1, it always ends up 2v1. Im fine with teaming up in large ffas though because usually everyone has alliances and it makes the game very political which i enjoy, but if someone is only there to help one other guy it ruins the game imo. Alliances leave tons of room to do stuff, teams do not.
Sharuum the Hegemon
Mayael the Anima
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Sliver Overlord
Drana Kalastria Bloodchief
99 mountain Ashling
Seriously, you guys are looking for different things from this game. Trying to get Spikes to, as they would see it, play or build their decks suboptimally, is not going to end in smiles because you're taking the fun out of the game for them. Similarly, trying to get Timmy/Johnny/casual types to spend more money, time, and effort on EDH so they can compete with the kinds of things Spikes want to do will not end in smiles because all these people want to do is cast their ridiculous spells without being locked out by Spike with Winter Orb.
Personally, I lean towards the Timmy/Johnny side, but short of forming separate playgroups for the two sides, some flexibility is needed from everyone. I'm normally fine with whatever you do as long as I can cast my spells - I don't mean having them countered, I mean being locked down with the aforementioned Winter Orb, or Yosei, the Morning Star, or Mindslaver. Spikes, if people in your playgroup complain about these kinds of cards, you can probably have fun without running these kinds of cards. Similarly, casual players, most answers in EDH are so cheap monetarily that there's no excuse for not improving your deck to deal with Spike if he keeps winning.
Ridiculous. EDH, Magic and gaming in general is a co-operative enterprise. It's not like you have a right to sit down and do whatever you want. If you're not contributing to the shared goal of the group, they have every right to stop playing with you. You can't demand that people play games with you - they have to want to play with you, and if they're not getting anything out of the experience, then they won't want anything to do with you, gaming-wise.
"You're playing Condemn in your deck? JERK"
"You're not playing blue in your Sygg, River Cutthroat deck? L 2 PLAY NOOB"
"You're playing blue? Better attack him, everyone."
"You're ganging up on me when I haven't even set up my Stasis lock yet? JEEZ"
"You ended the game with a combo on turn 15? RAAAGE"
There is a lot more to Magic than what you think. I'm not going to pretend like I never get upset (I do), but I at least made a point to ask my playgroup to do me a favor: if they ever see me get mad over a game of Magic, punch me in the nose. I'm kind of glad they haven't had the heart to follow through
I agree, but at the same time you have to realize that at least some EDH players who "ban" or shun other people from their playgroup aren't exactly being objective. They've already been the victim of too many actual DB plays, or have read too many overzealous "Spirit of EDH" posts on dragonhighlander.net, or whatever, and they sometimes direct that frustration/animosity at someone who may not actually deserve it.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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Any kind of social exclusion (especially in gaming, which really should be all-inclusive) is a nasty affair. However, if someone repeatedly violates the norms or trust of the group and won't concede to making changes in their behavior, they shouldn't be surprised that they aren't invited back.
The only way to really deal with it fairly is to have an attempt at group consensus and expectations. My friends and I house rule the hell out of EDH (we don't play with general damage), and we vote on particularly problematic matters--I mean we even voted to accept the M10 rules changes (we did, thank goodness). And if a group of friends can't comprise on EDH rules, standards of behavior, or expectations of fairness and fun, well then they probably have bigger issues to deal with than whether or not it's okay to combo out.
On an unrelated note, something that does irk me a little is this pervasive idea of "casual" EDH. I'm inclined to refer to "casual" EDH as "Fun" EDH.
I mean I take EDH way more seriously than some dude who just copies a combo deck online and gets it off by turn 5. And how is that enjoyable for anyone? Combo players, is it even fun for you? If so, is your temporary and fleeting fun at winning an arbitrary card game worth the expense of the potential fun had by an entire game played between interestingly themed and crafted decks?
I think that caring about aspects of the game OTHER than winning doesn't make you a casual player. Anyone can buy "staple" cards, figure out broken combos, and ruin a game night; doing this doesn't make you special. It takes a real man to make a Baron Sengir deck that's fun, flavorful, and can actually win a game WITHOUT taking infinite turns or doing something equally stupid.
I would argue that caring about things other than winning makes you casual by definition. As far as I'm aware 'casual' means that you play for fun, not necessarily to win. I think you are giving the word negative connotations that it just does not have.
I'm also not a fan of the excuse 'because I can'. 'Hey, why'd you target that guy's Lord of Extinction with Vindicate when that guy over there is about to combo out with his Sharuum the Hegemon?' ...'because I can?'. It's a common attitude at my tables, as is 'oh well'. Just wish people would think a little more about their plays before they make them.
UWG Jenara, Asura of War
BUG The Mimeoplasm
B Geth, Lord of the Vault
I was more referring to people who just do it on a whim so to speak, there is a difference between being a db and playing a good deck and many people mistake the two. If a person is nothing but a db and refuses to compromise then ya do whatever you want, but if they just like to whip out a good deck that you may have trouble beating or dont like on a personal level (like ld) then the answer is not to ban it/them. But i do not want this to turn into another of "those" threads so that is as far as i will defend my opinion.
Another pet peeve is when people wait till the last possible second to tutor or something in a casual game, i get it is optimal to do it then but it really just wastes time in casual usually. And for that matter i also hate people who play a tutor then take 5 minutes or more to pick something...really? Learn your deck.
Also yes and yes. But i would never do it all the time.
Sharuum the Hegemon
Mayael the Anima
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Sliver Overlord
Drana Kalastria Bloodchief
99 mountain Ashling
I'm not sure we really disagree. You're more than welcome to have house rules, and you're more than welcome to ask those who join you to abide by those. If someone repeatedly violates the trust or accepted behavior of the playgroup, then that doesn't exactly leave you a lot of options, does it? I just have a problem with the policy of those playgroups or individuals that get upset (I mean, actually angry) the first time someone violates that norm.
For example, if you and your playgroup are looking forward to a semi-long EDH game with no mass land destruction or whatever, and then the new guy blows up the world with Jhoira and wins on turn 6 or 7, then don't ban him or his deck. Similarly, don't shun the guy for an hour while you say, "Good job, now we're gonna play for second place." Give him the benefit of the doubt, let him know the policies of your playgroup, and then he'll be accountable in the future. (I'm not accusing your playgroup; I'm just giving an example)
I've seen too many people ragequit when someone plays Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity, and I've seen too many people ragequit when their netdecked Rafiq of the Many list loses its expensive cards to Shared Fate and Confusion in the Ranks. People just need to chill out is all.
In other words, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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I completely agree with this. Maybe it's just my Johnny/Spike nature, or my limited budget, but I've always loved giving myself certain obstacles/limitations when making a deck (my current ones for my EDH decks are "absolutely no infinite combos within my deck" (harder than you'd think) and "cards printed during or after 8th edition" (note this still allows Duel Deck cards, FTV cards, etc.))
It's quite fun to create something like this as it's unique, original, and powerful yet not overpowered.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Casual players like to play for fun, without the goal of nessisarily winning in mind, having a deckbuilding mentality with a strong emphasis on theme or mechanic, despite not having the greatest cards in the decklist, but with cool and interesting effects that don't always happen in day to day MTG EDH.
Competitive players, while fun is obviously still the primary goal (otherwise it just ain't MTG), they emphasize on winning through the thrill of victory or the euphoria of crushing ones opponents through any and all means available, whether it be a quick and desisive combo, or Emerukal on turn 4, or a mechanic that can be abused to the point of broken.
Both are MTG. Both are EDH. Both can be FUN...when played within their respective play groups. Now, I get my head bitten off for making such generalizations about the way people may like to play the game, I will admit to being bias towards the casual side of the game. I've tried to be unbias, but if it seems not to be the case to someone, post your comments and I'll try to reword my 'generalizations' so as to not offend anyones prefered preference.
ps. I also think this is the type of thread where, if you agree with my generalizations, to go back to your first post made in this thread and edit them with a simple "Casual" or "Competitive" at the top of the post; for some stats crunching.
Just my thoughts....
Cheers and happy EDHing
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
Yup, I am on board with you. There's been a couple times where someone new shows up with a Uril, the Miststalker deck or combos out early or something, and it's not a big deal--in fact I'd rather it happen early instead of late in the game. When that does happen, we generally ask them to play with something else, and I let them sift through my dozen or so EDH decks for one they'll like. Everyone gets a certain amount of leeway for infinite combos as well. After all, if your combo gets set up and goes off on turn 20, that's not much different than me crapping out 30 saprolings and Pallid Mycoderming for the win.
I think if people go nuts because of one single game they lost quickly, when there are clearly opportunities for more games--well, there are bigger issues at hand.
Still, getting combo'd out on always sucks a little.
But "casual" does carry certain connotations. The underlying implication is that we somehow take the game less seriously than "competitive" players.
It's not that I don't care about winning--hell, I love winning! But I care about other aspects of Magic as well, and I don't care about winning so much that I'll do it at any cost.
My desire to win on my terms, using decks of my creations and setting my own limitations means that sometimes I lose games. But I'd rather lose a close, hard-fought game that was fun, engaging and riveting than win a blowout any day of the week, and I think it's silly that makes me a "casual" player. If anything, casual players are the ones who aren't willing to put enough time and creative energy into making unique decks of their own.
Would learn my licks with a bottle neck slide
Another thing, when I play that deck and they complain when I do, I have no problem switching. My Omnath, Locus of Mana kicks the **** out of my Thada Adel, Acquisitor deck. Then the person won't complain when I turn 4-5 attack with a million 80/80 squirrels, but once I Last Word your kill everything card in turn 17-19. Or something irrelevant like playing Leyline of Anticipation with 2 cards in hand. I'm sorry but I hardly see why this is way worse than a million squirrels 15 turns before then.
:symu::symg::symr: Maelstrom Wanderer :symu::symg::symr:
:symg::symb::symw:Karador, Ghost Chieftain :symg::symb::symw:
On a more serious note - i dislike it when people complain that i torched their Tolarian Academy or Cabal Coffers, particularly when i flash Obliterate and tell them how much worse it could have been.
I also dont like it when someone Mass LDs without having a win-condition on the board. By win condition - i mean RIGHT NOW, not after you combo off in a few turns, or worse - input a lock onto the field.
Going towards the casual/competetive player arguement - here are my defenitions:
If a player is, during that game, playing just for fun, and purposefully doesnt utilize any infinite combos or lock-downs (even if they might have it in the deck) they are Casual.
If a player is, during that game, playing to win, and sure, even for fun, and crack open lockdowns and infinite combos freely - they are Competetive.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
UNTAP BEFORE YOU DRAW
UNTAP BEFORE YOU DRAW
UNTAP BEFORE YOU DRAW
Ok I'm done.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Not just this, but
REMEMBER THE UPKEEP
REMEMBER THE UPKEEP
REMEMBER THE UPKEEP
So much confusion over one little step...
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
UNTAP, UPKEEP, DRAW
i admit, i often accidently go, because i want that card right now, but sure, i'll rebound or remove counters first:
Upkeep, draw, untap
my personal little oops moments.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
- People who roll dice to choose their target (just... hold on to it, man. It'll still be good next turn, when there's a threat to deal with).
- People who talk out loud about their options and over-dramatise the threat that a card poses to the rest of the table ("Well, I could play Llanowar Elves, or I could play Sakura-Tribe elder, which is going to be pre-tty nasty next turn when I untap with one more land than you guys...")
- Poor communication ("We're playing casually today." "Ok... I untap and combowtfbbq". "It's a competitive game, with honour and bragging rights at stake". "Is it cool if I play my theme deck based on the popular anime series I've been watching? I wrote this detailed backstory explaining how each card links up to a popular character, episode or fanfic".)
- Religious Wars over EDH (I'm so, so guilty of this.)
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People who just completely decimate your field near the beginning of the game and then alpha strike you in the same turn. I think that just removes the fun of the game for that one person while he waits for a new game. I am not talking about a deck that is over powered or has a good board position.
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
:symu::symg::symr: Maelstrom Wanderer :symu::symg::symr:
:symg::symb::symw:Karador, Ghost Chieftain :symg::symb::symw:
I really think the word 'fun' is unhelpful here. Casual players are in no way opposed to winning, and Spikes, I assume, find winning 'fun'. Winning and fun are in no way mutually exclusive, which is why there's so much confusion/argument about casual vs competitive, especially in EDH. I think there's a better way of looking at it:
Magic players play Magic for enjoyment. It seems trivially true that very few people would play any game if they didn't enjoy doing so. Obviously, different people derive enjoyment from the game in different ways. People who play what we call 'competitive' decks derive enjoyment from the result of the game - the win. So, naturally, they optimise their decks to give them the greatest possible chance of deriving the most enjoyment from each game. This may include infinite combos, lockdown, and the like, which are fair game because they increase enjoyment for the player.
People who play 'casual' decks derive enjoyment from the process of playing the game. This includes winning, but also a whole host of other things - big plays, cool interactions, fat beats. 'Casual' players enjoy these things in and of themselves, whereas 'competitive' players view them as a means to an end. Naturally, 'casual' players don't like it when their enjoyment is frustrated by being locked out of the game.
So you have a situation where players derive enjoyment from different aspects of the game. The solution is not for 'competitive' players to play suboptimally, or for 'casual' players to suck it up and play Clique, but for each group to have a bit of maturity and realise that playing games by definition is not all about them, but involves other people who need to enjoy themselves if they are to keep playing. Compromise is the name of the game here.
P.S: the above is also why 'play to win' Street Fighter guy who was popular a while about was so horribly wrong about everything.
P.P.S: sorry for derailing the thread.
1. 36 land, artifact accel, few beaters, some control magic, and 45 counterspells, Teferi. C'mon let's actually play magic people...
2. People who abuse politics. Politics is ok and even makes the game more interesting... But seriously... redirecting everyones attention to one player every game on turn one. The idea should be go after the person who is about to win not the person who can win *cause honestly everyone should be able to win*
3. People who complain about their general or deck every game but don't do anything about it.
4. People who complain about land destruction. It's a full archetype get over it. If someone is playing Red White just to play every land D avail then yea kinda annoying and have a talk with them. Otherwise, play like a smart EDH player and put some friggin' artifact accel in your deck.
5. "I can't afford the cards." simply... just stop playing magic then, it's EDH it's most oftenly the LEAST expensive format in Magic next to limited. Be a creative son of a b***h and win abstractly there are so many good cards to pick from.
6. People who complain about combo decks. Yea they are annoying and I love my combo as much as anyone maybe more, but soon they will get over it and take it apart. If they don't then build the deck listed in pet peeve 1.
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
I don't mind a combo win, hell I play infinite combos in most of my decks. What bothers me is combos like Leyline of the Void/Helm of Obedience Grim Monolith/Power artifact. Power artifact and Helm of Obedience are worthless without their counterparts. It indicates that the combo is there simply for the sake of the combo and nothing else. If you're gonna combo off do so with cards that are actually good on their own.
Wort/ Jor Kadeen/ Rasputin/BWG Karador/ Rakdos/ Edric/ Dralnu/ BBMikaeus
Mirror of Fate collection counter 98
1. People that forget to untap (unless if they're a new player. I'll allow it a couple times)
2. People spouting off the wrong rules or misusing an ability. Such as saying that Trample even applies when the creature is defending and being very confident that they're right. Get even more annoyed when they do it to a new player.
EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter :symb::symu::symw:
:symw::symg: Captain Sisay :symg::symw:
:symb::symg: Nath of the Gilt-Leaf :symg::symb:
:symr::symu: Jhoira of the Ghitu :symu::symr:
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