Land Destruction/Artifact destruction. I don't mind playing around counterspells, etc, as you CAN play around it. I hate decks that are basically all land/artifact destruction and kill you with their general. It's boring, its worse than playing dredge, and you are a jerk.
Ah, see, I never read any of those qualifiers, only the story he told about Street Fighter scrubs getting owned by pros and complaining about it, and it was so painfully obvious that he was confusing his categories
Sirlin's philosophy boils down to:
1) If you're playing to win, then play with all available strategies and options available. Nothing is cheap. Nothing is dirty. If the game lets you do it, and it's a good move, then do it.
2) It's a total waste of time to invent arbitrary rules about which tactics are "allowable" and which are "cheap." Nobody you play with is ever going to agree with the laundry list of tactics you think are unfair.
3) If you aren't playing to win, then who effing cares about your opinion? While you're crying at the kid's table about Zangief throwing you or Vega doing too many wall dives, I'll be over here winning the tournament. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to man up and learn how to play the game, or are you going to cry yourself to sleep that people out there don't play by the rules you think are fair?
There are times when I agree with Sirlin's philosophy. I play a fair amount of SF: HDR online, and I have no problem tick throwing, reversing, dizzy comboing, or doing one move over and over until the other guy learns to block it. However, there are times when PTW isn't necessary... such as playing EDH with my Magic playgroup. We're not here to win the tournament, we're here to chill out, play a game of Magic that lasts 10-30 turns, and ends with the life total of each player being reduced to zero.
1. When it's your turn and you're not paying attention. Trading, talking, taking forever to draw your card for the turn. Keep your head in the game!
2. People who pick random targets for spells and random people to attack. It's annoying especially when they randomly target the person with the worst board position. I always keep this one to myself though because ultimately they play however they want. It annoys me only if I'm having a bad day.
3. People who should know their deck but don't. I help new players whenever I can and I sometimes let play mistakes slide. I help anyone who asks. But if you're casting Fabricate and spend 15 minutes looking through your deck, or you're looking at the top 3 cards of your deck for the third time in a row, we have a problem.
4. People who whine about being attacked or getting their permanents destroyed. Take it like a man, I do.
5. It bothers me greatly when someone targets a player and not their deck. Sometimes I play a slightly more competitive deck, but sometimes I want to play my Atalya, Samite Master deck. Either way though, I sometimes get roflstomped no matter what I do and what board position I have. Oh well. =( I usually keep it to myself.
6. Global destruction with no win condition in play or in hand, or to keep from dying or, heck, with no plan whatsoever. I don't care about any card in a game, really. But if it sets everyone back and stalls the game for no particular reason, then I get annoyed. Again, I'll make a mental note for myself. =D
I'm a pretty easy player to get along with, and generally what happens is that if I find something bothers me about someone's deck or play-style, I'll alter my own deck accordingly so I'm less bothered when XYZ happens in game. If it's consistent play errors I'll politely correct you. If it's some kind of personal play habit, I'll generally just ignore it. Unless it's something really bad like you only play Magic shirtless or something. Pants optional is fine.
Edit: I just realized that I internalize a lot...maybe I should see someone about that...
Land Destruction/Artifact destruction. I don't mind playing around counterspells, etc, as you CAN play around it. I hate decks that are basically all land/artifact destruction and kill you with their general. It's boring, its worse than playing dredge, and you are a jerk.
You would utterly hate the 1v1 numot list i use, then. Because that's all it is.
Mind you - that's 1v1 only.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
There is a line though....just like your argument about counterspelling. You should be prepared to play around some LD and artifact wreckin'!
And really, in a 4 player EDH game....it's just completely impossible to counter everything unless you are otherwordly with counterbalance. Well, then again, most people don't realize that when you counter things you only counter something that's actually a threat...hey...wait a second. So people often forget that the blue mage let you have a bunch of stuff, but they remember that one thing that they really wanted getting countered. Lesson, threat density.
as per land destruction - Kamahl, Fist of Krosa ensures that when a wrath hits the board, all the nasty lands are going bye bye.
i COULD turn all my opponent's lands into creatures, but then no one would want to play with me.. but i am going to blow up your Maze of Ith and Cabal Coffers.
I'm pretty sure we agree. I put quote marks around 'casual' in my post because it's a convenient label that everyone understands, but I don't think it's a good word in itself. What I disagree with is the word 'fun'. I think it's misleading; everybody plays Magic for fun. There's no distinction between those who play for fun and those who play to win, because the people who play to win find winning fun. If they weren't having fun they wouldn't play. So the distinction is not to do with playing for fun or playing to win, it's to do with what you find fun about Magic, i.e. what you enjoy. Both groups get grumpy when their method of enjoyment is frustrated; Spike hates building suboptimal decks (he enjoys winning and optimal decks = more winning), and Timmy/Johnny hate it when they get locked out or subjected to a sudden infinite game-winning combo. The challenge for players is to create an environment where, if you'll allow me to channel Aristotle for a second, everybody can pursue their own conception of the good.
Fair enough, dude; being a postmodernist means I can't really argue with other people's interpretation of "fun", no matter how lame it may seem to me. But I'm equally opposed to the label of "casual", catch-all though it may be. Perhaps the term "creative" EDH player better represents those of us who are willing to build our own decks and seek enjoyment in aspects of the game other than blowing everyone's face apart.
There is a line though....just like your argument about counterspelling. You should be prepared to play around some LD and artifact wreckin'!
And really, in a 4 player EDH game....it's just completely impossible to counter everything unless you are otherwordly with counterbalance. Well, then again, most people don't realize that when you counter things you only counter something that's actually a threat...hey...wait a second. So people often forget that the blue mage let you have a bunch of stuff, but they remember that one thing that they really wanted getting countered. Lesson, threat density.
A lack of general strategy and threat assessment is a common problem in a lot of the EDH groups I've played with, and can be pretty frustrating. I see similar problems in the table top strategy games I play, like Warhammer and Warhammer 40k.
I really think that this is due to many people not having to actually THINK about the game, and formats/decks where this is encouraged. I mean a lot of combo decks really represent no strategy whatsoever in terms of dealing with the rest of the board--it's just an issue of can I get my combo off before someone else does?
When these attitudes become popularized, it's hard for people to look past them. I think those of us that learned how to play the game creativley and make our own decks, instead of using the "right" decks or the "good" decks, perhaps have some advantage in these areas.
And for the record, occasional land destruction and counterspells as utility tools have their place. Nothing wrong with Ghost Quartering a Library of Alexandria, or countering the key card in an infinite combo. But "mass land destruction" and "mass counterspells" are not strategies, they are just examples of people trying to create a game imbalance that they can take advantage of by spamming a type of card. In a game as vast as Magic, this requires little in the way of creative thought.
My personal opinions on the various topics-within-a-topic are as follows: <5 Card Infinite Combos - Yes, we can watch you masturbate and go off on everyone. Congrats. Thanks for wasting my time. Now go away and let the rest of us have a game, ok?
5+ Card Infinite Combos - If you can show me how it works, and it's like a demented Rube Goldberg machine, I'll give you props for the play. Still, though, this is EDH. Leave the infintes for fighting games.
Mass LD - Sure, whatever. I still have my artifacts and mana dorks, so whatevs. Even Obliterate I'll tolerate, if there's a definite reason to do so.
Proxies/Gold-Bordered cards - I don't mind, though I would like to see some effort put towards getting tourney-legal versions. I also expect an MSE render or better if you are going to use proxies, as I'd like to be able to see what the heck they say.
As an aside, I've been thinking of going through and making renders using new frames and Oracle text for some of my older cards (stuff like Revised duals, Scroll Rack, and so on) and sliding them in the same sleeve as the original card. Thoughts?
The two Elspeths are a great thesis on women in general. When you first meet one, she costs a decent amount to attract, makes you stronger and gives you the feeling that you're flying. She also goes to great lengths to protect her loved ones from harm. After a while, she gets more expensive to maintain, gives birth like a sow, becomes less loyal after doing so, and tops it all off by wrecking crap around the house. Except hers, of course.
Yet some people just want to spend massive stacks of money on the game, and feel that I should repeat their mistake. Listen, it's fine if you wanted to spend hundreds of dollars on your stuff, more power to you, thanks for supporting the game for me, I'm very cool with these people. But if you feel like everybody else should do that too, that's your problem. My group will happily ostracize you.
The bolded attitude is probably what peeves the anti-proxyers.
My belief is simply that you shouldn't need to proxy a card just because you can't afford it. This is a casual format. Use something else. I can't afford Mana Drain, so I'm not above running Deprive. I'm not going to print off a MD so I can win a few more games. It's supposed to be casual, right?
Generally, though, I don't care if someone uses one or two proxies. Either way, I'm not going to call them out for it or refuse to play them. I'll just roll my eyes.
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EDH Azami (video)
:symw::symb::symg: Teneb (video) Drana (video) (retired)
:symw::symr: Brion (video)
:symb::symr: Wort (video) Arcum (video) (retired)
:symr::symg: Stonebrow (video) BShirei (video) WURasputin (video) (retired) RUrabrask (video) WURZedruu (video) (retired) WIsamaru UBGrimgrin UMistform Ultimus (video) UBRGwendlyn (video) URGAnimar (video) RGThromok WBSelenia Standard WUGeist of Saint Traft standard EDH (video) (retired) WUB Battle of Wits!
As far as the proxy issue is concerned, I must confess that I'm guilty of printing out (or even better, custom-arting) some cards from time to time -- but it's only for testing purposes. For at least a few months, my Tezzeret the Seeker was really a piece of printing paper on which I drew a full-art close-up of Darth Vader, with the flavor text "He's more machine than man, now." I finally got a real Tezzeret, though.
I will admit that it can be annoying to lose to cards that aren't real, especially if they're expensive -- turn-1 gold-bordered Goblin Lackey kind of makes me sigh.
@uber and gaka: well of course some ld and artifact destruction are important, just like countermagic and creature kill and any type of kill. That being said, the overuse of such is boring to me. Its a lot easier to play around countermagic than it is to play around ld and artifact d. Countermagic stops 1 spell, ld stops ALL spells. /rant
One thing that bugs me with a group I play with is their, pardon my french, *****yness about little things. They changed Annihlator to a combat damage effect, banned most of the cards in my edh decks. I understand Humility sucks, but please grow up.
Also I disapprove of people who don't like proxies, I mean I make a point of making beautiful printed proxies, that at a distance of about a foot are nearly indistinguishable from the real thing. Yet some people just want to spend massive stacks of money on the game, and feel that I should repeat their mistake. Listen, it's fine if you wanted to spend hundreds of dollars on your stuff, more power to you, thanks for supporting the game for me, I'm very cool with these people. But if you feel like everybody else should do that too, that's your problem. My group will happily ostracize you.
I don't want to butt in too much on the issue of proxies but I should point out that the production and use of proxies edges very, very closely into the infringement of intellectual property rights. While it is unlikely that Wizards will closely police the use of proxies, it is really best not to produce them en masse or, at the very least, refrain from discussing your use and support of proxies on a publicly-accessible forum.
I fail to see how running 1 2x card infinite combo in a pile of 99 cards is bad. People whining about infinite combos should just run a few themselves, fun or not. It's magic, the point of the game is to win. And I am sorry not all people like just turning dudes sideways to win... such is Kiki-jiki/Lightning Grafter in my goblin deck, or reviellark/mirror entity/saffi/karmic guide/ yosei in my sisay deck.
I don't want to butt in too much on the issue of proxies but I should point out that the production and use of proxies edges very, very closely into the infringement of intellectual property rights. While it is unlikely that Wizards will closely police the use of proxies, it is really best not to produce them en masse or, at the very least, refrain from discussing your use and support of proxies on a publicly-accessible forum.
Oddly, Wizard's best buddy Starcity Games allows Proxies at their Power 9 tournaments. I don't like proxies in EDH, but it's ONLY a craft thing. If you make proxies that are high quality and don't distract me, then that's your thing. I'm not going to keep you from the jug of vodak just because you don't want to pay me to alter the art on your Land Tax.
I'll accept proxies of cards you've got in other decks. Honestly, that's an easy one and I don't see how anyone could complain about it. If they've got a good proxy and you're sticky about them moving the actual card between decks then I think you need to just chill. (Chilled things are less sticky.)
If you're using proxies of cards you're testing with the intent to buy the card if it works out, I'll support that. Honestly, if you're unsure how well something like Diamond Valley will play in your deck you really should test it a bit before you invest. Alternatively, good proxies of stuff like Black Market I won't have an issue with (i.e. cards that don't have significant value but can be a ***** to actually get a hold of).
If you're using proxies of ABU duals, Mana Drain, Gaea's Cradle, et al, you get to deal with me ridiculing your deck (and probably you) for the duration of the game.
1. People that complain just because they haven't built their deck to handle situations. Yeah I know you don't always have that answer in your hand but still if ld, counterspells, or removal is crippling your deck to no return build around it. Mass land removal is the one I hate to hear the most, you CAN build around it quit complaining.
2. People who whine about what targets another player chooses. People that are like "OmG FaIL!!! You should have done (insert text) instead." Its EDH we don't tell you how to play your deck neither should you. It can be frustrating when you get hit with something that could've been aimed at more valid target, but every player has the right to his or her own actions. Don't get mad at another player if "Dudes" combo is going to go off and he hits you instead. Your looking past the fact that YOU should have an answer for said problem.
Oddly, Wizard's best buddy Starcity Games allows Proxies at their Power 9 tournaments. I don't like proxies in EDH, but it's ONLY a craft thing. If you make proxies that are high quality and don't distract me, then that's your thing. I'm not going to keep you from the jug of vodak just because you don't want to pay me to alter the art on your Land Tax.
My pet peeve is players who don't understand being a threat makes you a target. If you first turn Burgeoning'd into a turn two Primeval Titan and Gaddock Teeg (or whatever), you forgo your right to complain that the table is picking on you.
THIS TIMES ONE THOUSAND!!!!
I have a friend who plays Omanth EDH. He had a huge Omnath capable of general killing in one swipe. So I prison termed OMNATH. then he played Emrakul!
So prison term emrakul and then kill his general. I then target him to death before he can find an answer to that prison term.
He wasn't very visible about it, but I could tell he was annoyed, but who can blame me?
The only proxies I would allow are cards you own in other decks or that are in the mail at this very moment. Other than that go be creative.
This is just about the dumbest proxy rule I have ever heard. Actually there is only two proxy rules that are not dumb and won't make you come off as a total douch for enforcing.
1. no proxies in tournaments
2. proxies must be well made (readable, recognizable from across a table, ect...)
3. every card that isn't a basic land in your deck should not be a proxy. Support the store some. buy a decent precentage of your deck with real cards.
the other rule about "having it in another deck" or "in the mail is silly".
If a well made proxy is on the table you honestly wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and the real card unless you looked REALLY hard. Sorry I have to proxy an 80$ card! You are totally right! its oh so rude of me to make a proxy of a card which looks almost exactly like it so your brain won't know the difference! I am so sorry a peasent like me even considers playing at your table!
I will admit that it can be annoying to lose to cards that aren't real, especially if they're expensive
Someone needs some education in lingiusitcs and symbolism. All cards, even the "real" ones, simple are representatives for an effect. The only "realness" of the card is the effect it creates and its properties.
The bolded attitude is probably what peeves the anti-proxyers.
I support it just as much as the anti-proxy crowd. I may not buy that $80 but I do buy the 5-10 dollar ones. I also have brought alot more people into EDH than the many of those in the anti-proxy crowd. More people in the game means more of them supporting the store through card purchases.
Personally, I hate three things.
1) Griefer strategies. There's one guy that I've played before who insists on running every single griefer card known with no real endgame in sight. Admittedly, he was totally ok when someone cast an Austere command that left him with just 2 lands in play on turn 8 that entirely knocked him out of the game.
2) People who do nothing to stop another player's winning stroke even though they can. I get it if it is turn 30 and people want the game to end, but if it is turn 3 and someone is going to combo off and you can stop it, then why the hell wouldn't you stop it?
3) People who combo off on turn 3. I've played games where it took me more time to shuffle my deck than it did to play the game. I just don't get the point of those games. I understand that for the most part people are playing to win, but we're also playing to play. If you are playing competitive EDH then you should bring whatever you can, but if I'm sitting down for a nice casual game, let's try to let people actually play.
That isn't the point. The point is that if SCG can publicly acknowledge and support the use of ANY proxies, then I doubt Wizards will care if people have a Primeval Titan proxy they play in a casual deck.
Proxies don't bother me at all, but only if they have the correct name, casting cost, creature type, P/T and exact oracle wording. Just the name written with a Sharpie on a basic land doesn't cut it. Anything else with all the above information is fine.
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My apologies, children, for I am afraid I cannot save you all.
Proxies don't bother me at all, but only if they have the correct name, casting cost, creature type, P/T and exact oracle wording. Just the name written with a Sharpie on a basic land doesn't cut it. Anything else with all the above information is fine.
This. I rarely use proxies, but when I do they're the stuff that no one around here will trade and the stores don't have even if I could afford them. (one ABU dual in each deck)
My biggest pet peeve isn't people using poxies, it's people taking a card, flipping it over and scribbling on it with a sharpie.
When I made my proxies, they were MSE renders that (aside from the card frame) were indistinguishable from the real thing if you weren't 6 inches away from it. I even made proxies for other people in the EDH group because it was easy as hell to do and it makes things look that much better.
Other pet peeves:
--mass/repeatable LD: Yes, it's good to pack a tectonic edge and a stone rain because sometimes you need to get rid of that tolarian academy or gaea's cradle or something. Casting flowstone flood 10 times a turn is just bull☺☺☺☺.
--mono-blue decks with 45 mana sources, 35 counters and a few draw spells to hold it together. (I'm looking at you, vendillion clique): Counterspells are a part of magic, I get that. I run 15-20 in my GAA4 deck, because it's blue and thus needs a good way to do these. It's the 1v1 decks that literally counter every spell you cast that piss me off.
--Turn 3-4 OTK combos: There's nothing inherently wrong with infinite/instant win combos, it's just the ones that end the game before anyone has any chance to set up a board position that get annoying. Sure I run two infinite combos in grand arbiter (guilescape and tunnel vision/reito lantern) but I can't reliably pull them out before anyone has a chance to play some things; and they certainly can be overcome.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
I really hate playing magic with Professor EDH. You know, the guy that thinks something is wrong with the format, or is 100% convinced he is a master and won't shut up about how card x should be unbanned, or why a general is just too good, or how he knows all about one deck because he plays it all the time and wrote a primer for it on some forum.
Or the guy that plays in side events at GPs and tells the table all about his internet persona and how he has like 10,000 posts, and how awesome his captai...ahem, his green white toolbox deck is.
I really hate reading posts from Professor Troll too. Troll infraction.
MTG Rules adviser.
Sirlin's philosophy boils down to:
1) If you're playing to win, then play with all available strategies and options available. Nothing is cheap. Nothing is dirty. If the game lets you do it, and it's a good move, then do it.
2) It's a total waste of time to invent arbitrary rules about which tactics are "allowable" and which are "cheap." Nobody you play with is ever going to agree with the laundry list of tactics you think are unfair.
3) If you aren't playing to win, then who effing cares about your opinion? While you're crying at the kid's table about Zangief throwing you or Vega doing too many wall dives, I'll be over here winning the tournament. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to man up and learn how to play the game, or are you going to cry yourself to sleep that people out there don't play by the rules you think are fair?
There are times when I agree with Sirlin's philosophy. I play a fair amount of SF: HDR online, and I have no problem tick throwing, reversing, dizzy comboing, or doing one move over and over until the other guy learns to block it. However, there are times when PTW isn't necessary... such as playing EDH with my Magic playgroup. We're not here to win the tournament, we're here to chill out, play a game of Magic that lasts 10-30 turns, and ends with the life total of each player being reduced to zero.
2. People who pick random targets for spells and random people to attack. It's annoying especially when they randomly target the person with the worst board position. I always keep this one to myself though because ultimately they play however they want. It annoys me only if I'm having a bad day.
3. People who should know their deck but don't. I help new players whenever I can and I sometimes let play mistakes slide. I help anyone who asks. But if you're casting Fabricate and spend 15 minutes looking through your deck, or you're looking at the top 3 cards of your deck for the third time in a row, we have a problem.
4. People who whine about being attacked or getting their permanents destroyed. Take it like a man, I do.
5. It bothers me greatly when someone targets a player and not their deck. Sometimes I play a slightly more competitive deck, but sometimes I want to play my Atalya, Samite Master deck. Either way though, I sometimes get roflstomped no matter what I do and what board position I have. Oh well. =( I usually keep it to myself.
6. Global destruction with no win condition in play or in hand, or to keep from dying or, heck, with no plan whatsoever. I don't care about any card in a game, really. But if it sets everyone back and stalls the game for no particular reason, then I get annoyed. Again, I'll make a mental note for myself. =D
I'm a pretty easy player to get along with, and generally what happens is that if I find something bothers me about someone's deck or play-style, I'll alter my own deck accordingly so I'm less bothered when XYZ happens in game. If it's consistent play errors I'll politely correct you. If it's some kind of personal play habit, I'll generally just ignore it. Unless it's something really bad like you only play Magic shirtless or something. Pants optional is fine.
Edit: I just realized that I internalize a lot...maybe I should see someone about that...
You would utterly hate the 1v1 numot list i use, then. Because that's all it is.
Mind you - that's 1v1 only.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Heck, if you DON'T have some kind of land or artifact destruction in EDH you're going to be completely lit up by artifacts and lands of other players.
Can't let mono blue have extraplanar lens, can't let green keep gaea's cradle, the list goes on. Also can't let someone scroll rack 10 cards.
There is a line though....just like your argument about counterspelling. You should be prepared to play around some LD and artifact wreckin'!
And really, in a 4 player EDH game....it's just completely impossible to counter everything unless you are otherwordly with counterbalance. Well, then again, most people don't realize that when you counter things you only counter something that's actually a threat...hey...wait a second. So people often forget that the blue mage let you have a bunch of stuff, but they remember that one thing that they really wanted getting countered. Lesson, threat density.
Trade/Sell me your Demonic Attorney!
i COULD turn all my opponent's lands into creatures, but then no one would want to play with me.. but i am going to blow up your Maze of Ith and Cabal Coffers.
Fair enough, dude; being a postmodernist means I can't really argue with other people's interpretation of "fun", no matter how lame it may seem to me. But I'm equally opposed to the label of "casual", catch-all though it may be. Perhaps the term "creative" EDH player better represents those of us who are willing to build our own decks and seek enjoyment in aspects of the game other than blowing everyone's face apart.
A lack of general strategy and threat assessment is a common problem in a lot of the EDH groups I've played with, and can be pretty frustrating. I see similar problems in the table top strategy games I play, like Warhammer and Warhammer 40k.
I really think that this is due to many people not having to actually THINK about the game, and formats/decks where this is encouraged. I mean a lot of combo decks really represent no strategy whatsoever in terms of dealing with the rest of the board--it's just an issue of can I get my combo off before someone else does?
When these attitudes become popularized, it's hard for people to look past them. I think those of us that learned how to play the game creativley and make our own decks, instead of using the "right" decks or the "good" decks, perhaps have some advantage in these areas.
And for the record, occasional land destruction and counterspells as utility tools have their place. Nothing wrong with Ghost Quartering a Library of Alexandria, or countering the key card in an infinite combo. But "mass land destruction" and "mass counterspells" are not strategies, they are just examples of people trying to create a game imbalance that they can take advantage of by spamming a type of card. In a game as vast as Magic, this requires little in the way of creative thought.
Probably the funniest thing I've read all day : D
My personal opinions on the various topics-within-a-topic are as follows:
<5 Card Infinite Combos - Yes, we can watch you masturbate and go off on everyone. Congrats. Thanks for wasting my time. Now go away and let the rest of us have a game, ok?
5+ Card Infinite Combos - If you can show me how it works, and it's like a demented Rube Goldberg machine, I'll give you props for the play. Still, though, this is EDH. Leave the infintes for fighting games.
Mass LD - Sure, whatever. I still have my artifacts and mana dorks, so whatevs. Even Obliterate I'll tolerate, if there's a definite reason to do so.
Proxies/Gold-Bordered cards - I don't mind, though I would like to see some effort put towards getting tourney-legal versions. I also expect an MSE render or better if you are going to use proxies, as I'd like to be able to see what the heck they say.
As an aside, I've been thinking of going through and making renders using new frames and Oracle text for some of my older cards (stuff like Revised duals, Scroll Rack, and so on) and sliding them in the same sleeve as the original card. Thoughts?
The bolded attitude is probably what peeves the anti-proxyers.
My belief is simply that you shouldn't need to proxy a card just because you can't afford it. This is a casual format. Use something else. I can't afford Mana Drain, so I'm not above running Deprive. I'm not going to print off a MD so I can win a few more games. It's supposed to be casual, right?
Generally, though, I don't care if someone uses one or two proxies. Either way, I'm not going to call them out for it or refuse to play them. I'll just roll my eyes.
EDH
Azami (video)
:symw::symb::symg: Teneb (video)
Drana (video) (retired)
:symw::symr: Brion (video)
:symb::symr: Wort (video)
Arcum (video) (retired)
:symr::symg: Stonebrow (video)
B Shirei (video)
WU Rasputin (video) (retired)
R Urabrask (video)
WUR Zedruu (video) (retired)
W Isamaru
UB Grimgrin
U Mistform Ultimus (video)
UBR Gwendlyn (video)
URG Animar (video)
RG Thromok
WB Selenia
Standard
WU Geist of Saint Traft standard EDH (video) (retired)
WUB Battle of Wits!
I will admit that it can be annoying to lose to cards that aren't real, especially if they're expensive -- turn-1 gold-bordered Goblin Lackey kind of makes me sigh.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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MTG Rules adviser.
:symu::symg::symr: Maelstrom Wanderer :symu::symg::symr:
:symg::symb::symw:Karador, Ghost Chieftain :symg::symb::symw:
I don't want to butt in too much on the issue of proxies but I should point out that the production and use of proxies edges very, very closely into the infringement of intellectual property rights. While it is unlikely that Wizards will closely police the use of proxies, it is really best not to produce them en masse or, at the very least, refrain from discussing your use and support of proxies on a publicly-accessible forum.
Oddly, Wizard's best buddy Starcity Games allows Proxies at their Power 9 tournaments. I don't like proxies in EDH, but it's ONLY a craft thing. If you make proxies that are high quality and don't distract me, then that's your thing. I'm not going to keep you from the jug of vodak just because you don't want to pay me to alter the art on your Land Tax.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
If you're using proxies of cards you're testing with the intent to buy the card if it works out, I'll support that. Honestly, if you're unsure how well something like Diamond Valley will play in your deck you really should test it a bit before you invest. Alternatively, good proxies of stuff like Black Market I won't have an issue with (i.e. cards that don't have significant value but can be a ***** to actually get a hold of).
If you're using proxies of ABU duals, Mana Drain, Gaea's Cradle, et al, you get to deal with me ridiculing your deck (and probably you) for the duration of the game.
2. People who whine about what targets another player chooses. People that are like "OmG FaIL!!! You should have done (insert text) instead." Its EDH we don't tell you how to play your deck neither should you. It can be frustrating when you get hit with something that could've been aimed at more valid target, but every player has the right to his or her own actions. Don't get mad at another player if "Dudes" combo is going to go off and he hits you instead. Your looking past the fact that YOU should have an answer for said problem.
Their unsanctioned power 9 tournaments
THIS TIMES ONE THOUSAND!!!!
I have a friend who plays Omanth EDH. He had a huge Omnath capable of general killing in one swipe. So I prison termed OMNATH. then he played Emrakul!
So prison term emrakul and then kill his general. I then target him to death before he can find an answer to that prison term.
He wasn't very visible about it, but I could tell he was annoyed, but who can blame me?
This is just about the dumbest proxy rule I have ever heard. Actually there is only two proxy rules that are not dumb and won't make you come off as a total douch for enforcing.
1. no proxies in tournaments
2. proxies must be well made (readable, recognizable from across a table, ect...)
3. every card that isn't a basic land in your deck should not be a proxy. Support the store some. buy a decent precentage of your deck with real cards.
the other rule about "having it in another deck" or "in the mail is silly".
If a well made proxy is on the table you honestly wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and the real card unless you looked REALLY hard. Sorry I have to proxy an 80$ card! You are totally right! its oh so rude of me to make a proxy of a card which looks almost exactly like it so your brain won't know the difference! I am so sorry a peasent like me even considers playing at your table!
Someone needs some education in lingiusitcs and symbolism. All cards, even the "real" ones, simple are representatives for an effect. The only "realness" of the card is the effect it creates and its properties.
I support it just as much as the anti-proxy crowd. I may not buy that $80 but I do buy the 5-10 dollar ones. I also have brought alot more people into EDH than the many of those in the anti-proxy crowd. More people in the game means more of them supporting the store through card purchases.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
1) Griefer strategies. There's one guy that I've played before who insists on running every single griefer card known with no real endgame in sight. Admittedly, he was totally ok when someone cast an Austere command that left him with just 2 lands in play on turn 8 that entirely knocked him out of the game.
2) People who do nothing to stop another player's winning stroke even though they can. I get it if it is turn 30 and people want the game to end, but if it is turn 3 and someone is going to combo off and you can stop it, then why the hell wouldn't you stop it?
3) People who combo off on turn 3. I've played games where it took me more time to shuffle my deck than it did to play the game. I just don't get the point of those games. I understand that for the most part people are playing to win, but we're also playing to play. If you are playing competitive EDH then you should bring whatever you can, but if I'm sitting down for a nice casual game, let's try to let people actually play.
That isn't the point. The point is that if SCG can publicly acknowledge and support the use of ANY proxies, then I doubt Wizards will care if people have a Primeval Titan proxy they play in a casual deck.
I make my own proxies and people react to them quite well.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
This. I rarely use proxies, but when I do they're the stuff that no one around here will trade and the stores don't have even if I could afford them. (one ABU dual in each deck)
My biggest pet peeve isn't people using poxies, it's people taking a card, flipping it over and scribbling on it with a sharpie.
When I made my proxies, they were MSE renders that (aside from the card frame) were indistinguishable from the real thing if you weren't 6 inches away from it. I even made proxies for other people in the EDH group because it was easy as hell to do and it makes things look that much better.
Other pet peeves:
--mass/repeatable LD: Yes, it's good to pack a tectonic edge and a stone rain because sometimes you need to get rid of that tolarian academy or gaea's cradle or something. Casting flowstone flood 10 times a turn is just bull☺☺☺☺.
--mono-blue decks with 45 mana sources, 35 counters and a few draw spells to hold it together. (I'm looking at you, vendillion clique): Counterspells are a part of magic, I get that. I run 15-20 in my GAA4 deck, because it's blue and thus needs a good way to do these. It's the 1v1 decks that literally counter every spell you cast that piss me off.
--Turn 3-4 OTK combos: There's nothing inherently wrong with infinite/instant win combos, it's just the ones that end the game before anyone has any chance to set up a board position that get annoying. Sure I run two infinite combos in grand arbiter (guilescape and tunnel vision/reito lantern) but I can't reliably pull them out before anyone has a chance to play some things; and they certainly can be overcome.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
Or the guy that plays in side events at GPs and tells the table all about his internet persona and how he has like 10,000 posts, and how awesome his
captai...ahem, his green white toolbox deck is.I really hate reading posts from Professor Troll too. Troll infraction.