Hi Guys, been reading the decklists here for ages so thought it was time I shared my decklists. Decided to start with one of my favourites, Jenara, Asura of War.
The first draft of this deck was a combo deck built around the reveillark combo and an infinite landfall combo (which I never assembled) however over the last year it's been modded such that it's more about grinding out card advantage using creatures with CitP abilities and some good bounce/blink effects.
Most recent additions are the 3 swords and Stoneforge Mystic, I wanted a [card]Sword of Feast and Famine[/deck] in the deck so decided to add the full 4 card package.
Change Log
Mistmeadow Witch in for Stormfront Riders
Spelljack in for Spellburst (less likely to irritate opponents)
Mirror Entity for Phyrexian Altar
Yavimaya Elder for Vorinclex
Farhaven Elf for Mana Reflection
Cultivate for Yosei
Kodama's Reach for Vigor
Could probably use a Kor Haven in the lands but it's slipped my mind whenever I've been ordering cards.
Ok I guess I will start by pointing out some cards that come to mind from your list. I can see you play your Jenara more controlling than I play mine but I still figure I would like to note on a few cards and hear why you like them in your list or at least get you thinking about them. I dont play a control version of Jenara so some of this is just hypothetical.
Genesis my concerns here are that you dont have many ways of sacing / discarding him in the list. Do you just drop him in and wait for him to block / get wrathed? Have you had any problems doing this in the past? What is your usual means to get him to the bin?
Phyrexian Altar (misspelt in the list) I was also currious as to why this was in here. You only have a handfull of things worth sacing to get rid of them such as the above Genesis. What do you usually have this in here for? Why only one sac outlet and why this one in specific?
Garruk Wildspeaker I tend to find planeswalkers hard to defend so I try for ones that have very strong results very quickly. I dont think his untap function is worth it as in my own meta I wouldnt have him next turn so why pay 2 mana for a card who usually dies to a few chumps flying his way?
Spell Burst this spell can cost a monsterous amount of mana. Is it worth it? What if you just had a Hinder, Arcane Denial instead? Have you felt that the mana for this has been worth it? Usually buyback spells being abused is a good way to get a lot of people pissed off at you, has this been an issue?
Cryptic CommandUUU spells always concern me. Especially on one that is as reactive as a counterspell. Has this been an issue or has the utility behind the spell been worth it? I know of a few others who have run this in a control version of Jenara. How have you found it?
Sword of Feast and Famine my concern is that if you tap out before you swing then all that needs to happen is chump, maze, or spot removal the creature carrying it and you are stuck tapped out. You cant use it to pump Jenara until after she has already connected either which sort of sucks. I have had more luck with Darksteel Plate personally but I suppose you are going for more of a control style. Just thought I would drop you some food for thought on this sword.
Tidespout Tyrant generally this guy is best in a storm style deck that just drops spell after spell in a turn. I dont know about it in this list as this guy is something that I tend to hate all over as he is sort of a dick.
Stormfront Riders the only time I ever tried using this guy I felt he was really clunky and slow. You might consider running like Whitemane Lion as it costs less and has flash.
Keiga, the Tide Star my big problem with Keiga is that if someone just wraths you, exiles Keiga, or steals Keiga it isnt so great. I still use this bugger in my Teferi list which I am working to get back up an and running. I like it there due to the flash option but I don't know about just dropping it into play. In my experience it is best used as more of a combat trick or a deck with lots of sac outlets. Either way I don't feel like it is very suited for your list.
Thanks for you're feedback, I've read your primer and it's very good. You are correct, I have chosen to go for more of a controling deck, was working well but my friends are starting to realise that this deck sneaks up and locks up the board so are getting a bit more aggressive toward it.
Genesis my concerns here are that you dont have many ways of sacing / discarding him in the list. Do you just drop him in and wait for him to block / get wrathed? Have you had any problems doing this in the past? What is your usual means to get him to the bin?
To be honest I haven't hit him in a while, the plan would be to just go aggro with him or use him to chump depending on what my opponent's doing. Do you have a better suggestion for repeatable recursion? I've not been impressed with Reya Dawnbringer due to her cost and her being killed quickly.
Phyrexian Altar (misspelt in the list) I was also currious as to why this was in here. You only have a handfull of things worth sacing to get rid of them such as the above Genesis. What do you usually have this in here for? Why only one sac outlet and why this one in specific?
Thanks for the heads-up on the typo. Good sac outlets are hard to find in GWU. This one allows me to trigger the Reveillark combo without using Mirror Entity to repetitively wrath my own field. Additionally, it lets me generate infinite mana with any 2 of Reveillark, Saffi Eriksdotter and Karmic guide. I recently had a look for a better alternative but couldn't see one.
Garruk Wildspeaker I tend to find planeswalkers hard to defend so I try for ones that have very strong results very quickly. I dont think his untap function is worth it as in my own meta I wouldnt have him next turn so why pay 2 mana for a card who usually dies to a few chumps flying his way?
I've actually got quite good mileage out of Garruk Wildspeaker, he does occasionally get stuck in my hand due to vulnerability but on the whole I've been happy.
Spell Burst this spell can cost a monsterous amount of mana. Is it worth it? What if you just had a Hinder, Arcane Denial instead? Have you felt that the mana for this has been worth it? Usually buyback spells being abused is a good way to get a lot of people pissed off at you, has this been an issue?
My meta is a bit weird as I play with 2 groups, 1 got me into EDH and have some nasty decks (including a Maga deck which repeatedly wraths with Kagemaro and Corpse Dance). The other, which I play with more often, are my uni friends who I introduced to EDH and a bit more casual.
I've more often had to cast this without buyback to stop a spell in the midgame so not had to lock someone out yet. Trying to decide where the balance between strong defense and irritating is; this is probably the latter.
Cryptic CommandUUU spells always concern me. Especially on one that is as reactive as a counterspell. Has this been an issue or has the utility behind the spell been worth it? I know of a few others who have run this in a control version of Jenara. How have you found it?
I've been ok with the mana on this, screw happens in 3 colour decks but Cryptic is strong enough to warrant the risk in my book and has been pretty good. Also, cryptic into sunblast angel is pretty funny.
Sword of Feast and Famine my concern is that if you tap out before you swing then all that needs to happen is chump, maze, or spot removal the creature carrying it and you are stuck tapped out. You cant use it to pump Jenara until after she has already connected either which sort of sucks. I have had more luck with Darksteel Plate personally but I suppose you are going for more of a control style. Just thought I would drop you some food for thought on this sword.
All 3 swords and the mystic are brand new additions so have yet to be tested. I realise there are risks with it but I'm curious to see how it'll work. Thanks for the thoughts.
Tidespout Tyrant generally this guy is best in a storm style deck that just drops spell after spell in a turn. I dont know about it in this list as this guy is something that I tend to hate all over as he is sort of a dick.
I'm running him more as a way to bounce my own creatures to use their abilities again, having said that I've had him played against me when a friend borrowed the deck and it did a good job of annoying me and my mate when our stuff kept getting bounced. Not had to many issues thus far.
Stormfront Riders the only time I ever tried using this guy I felt he was really clunky and slow. You might consider running like Whitemane Lion as it costs less and has flash.
Yeah, he was on the chopping block when I was modding the deck but made the cut. He is rather slow but does what he needs to and fuels the Knight-Captain. He's likely to be the next cut but it was funny making infinite soldiers then dropping Akroma's Memorial (which was recently cut).
My non-white decks run the spike in combo with forgotten ancient as an alternative to the 2 cards above, not sure which I prefer, I guess both the green cards are recurrable with Reveillark but the bounce effect of the riders is also handy.
Keiga, the Tide Star my big problem with Keiga is that if someone just wraths you, exiles Keiga, or steals Keiga it isnt so great. I still use this bugger in my Teferi list which I am working to get back up an and running. I like it there due to the flash option but I don't know about just dropping it into play. In my experience it is best used as more of a combat trick or a deck with lots of sac outlets. Either way I don't feel like it is very suited for your list.
These are all good points, they've not came up too often thus far and Keiga tends to be very good at holding off my opponents and is just silly if I get the Reveillark combo going. Will keep an eye on her.
Thanks for the feedback, its good to have someone else who's familiar with the general to give their opinion on the deck. You've picked up on some of the cards I have started to lose faith in so it's good to have those thoughts echoed.
You might try swapping the sac outlet to be Spawning Pit as you can at least pick up with a mob of tokens from it. Honestly though Mirror Entity works the best if you want the combo in the deck. I have seen several times where if nothing else I activate Mirror Entity to turn it into an 8/8+ if nothing else in a turn. I mobed someone to death with 4 13/13s one time which was really fun as I had a terrible board presence but topdecked the entity. I dont have him in my list anymore because my meta requested me to pull my combos as well as everyone else. Otherwise I have to say he is a great creature for the list.
Good luck with the others. Let me know if you need any help. I am always happy to lend a hand to another Jenara player.
EDIT: also just a heads up, you might not find Pact of Negation that great in your build as I have found it to be sort of lackluster if you actually keep mana open for counterspells most turns. I had the problem in my Teferi deck that it was better to just run an actual counterspell if I was going to keep mana open. Pact is alright in a counterspell war or if you plan on tapping out from time to time. Me running an agro version I tend to tap out a lot or keep 1-3 mana left open so I find that Pact is great for my deck's playstyle. It might change a bit going to more of a control version.
EDIT 2: also you might try Mistmeadow Witch instead of those Stormfront Riders. The Witch is extremely good and I almost run it myself but I find it too control based for me. You can use it to flicker out guys with tokens on them, reuse persist guys, retrigger ETB effects, flicker out fatties so they cant hit you. It has tons of uses and it can be used at instant speed which is sooooo much better than the riders.
Spawning Pit is a good one, seen it before but it slipped out of my mind, thanks. Guess it'll boil down to whether the infinite mana combo or the swarm or 2/2's proves more useful. I'll give it a try.
Pact is also a new addition, although I'm a control build most of the cards are creatures so I do have to tap out now and again. Also why I favour the mana-doubling effects over the early ramp spells. Will see how it goes I guess.
I used to run the witch but cut it when I made a big mod recently. You're prolly right as the witch bounces the knight-captain (or spike weaver) to refresh them easier than the riders. Thanks.
Sower of Temptation is neat, but it doesn't actually synergize with your bounce and flicker theme. I've found it to be a great 1/1 card, but kind of lackluster in multiplayer. Gilded Drake is absolutely insane, though.
I also noticed that your ramp is a little top-heavy. You have good mana doublers and Prime Time, but everything down below seems either conditional, vulnerable, or slow. I'd recommend running some combination of the Fab Five: Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Skyshroud Claim, Hunting Wilds, and Explosive Vegetation.
True Sower doesn't synergize too well but I've got some good mileage out of her, I do play 1v1 now and again so having some cards for that is handy. She is one of the cards I was thinking of cutting recently as she doesn't flicker so well but gonna give her some more time. The drake does look insane, I don't own one but might see about getting one in the future.
Mana ramp is something I've been playing with.I used to run 35 land in a deck but with up to 10 ramp spells across the curve, this worked well if I ramped in turns 2 - 4 but if I didn't hit ramp or got screwed for green it just sucked. Running 39 - 40 lands has made my decks curve out a lot smoother so I've cut a lot of the early ramp in favour of late game doubling etc so once I'm in full swing I have mana enough to cast creatures and have mana up to counter with. Realistically, I'd have to run most of the Fab Five for them to show up often enough to make a difference and I wouldn't know where to start making cuts for them, any suggestions?
I've got an Sphinx ordered and will be trying to fit him in once he arrives.
Hallowed Burial is indeed great, I think I'm running my 2 copies elsewhere atm. Sunblast angel has not performed as well as I'd hoped so far (keep drawing her on stalled boards so nothing's tapped) so I may well swap them about.
Thanks for the ideas. Had a quick squint over your Jenara list, very nice, you added some of the cards I've considered in the past (cauldron of souls) but then I have a larger counter suite so I had to make concessions for that.
I had the same problems with Sunblast. I tried running her for some time but ultimately I couldnt control how she worked enough for me to like her. I did like how I could tutor her up much easier than some of the other wrath options. I have started running Oblivion Stone since then though which has panned out soooo well. I can tutor it up with Tezzeret the Seeker or Wargate I can rez it with Sun Titan or Academy Ruins. It is just such a versatile card and I have had fun abusing it. But I agree, Hallowed Burial is crazy good which is why I run it as one of my 3 wrath options.
As for the ramp issues. What I am seeing from your list is that your ramp options are just so slow and they are vulnerable to removal. I have found that using mana stones, and land ramp tends to pull less hate their way. Mana doublers sort of scream you guys should kill this or kill this player. I would consider cutting some of the following:
Garruk Wildspeaker I dont like how planeswalkers tend to die quickly. While he might last you a few turns if you are lucky it is unlikely that you will be able to keep him arround as mana ramp for more than 3-4 turns. You are going to want mana for most of the game as you are playing a control deck. Mana Reflection, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, Mirari's Wake these effects are really really slow to get rolling. Honestly I would cut them way back. Mirari's Wake is the best of them if you were to keep one of them. I would probably cut the other two though as you need early ramp.
Generally speaking a lot of people will go with Cultivate / Kodama's Reach first as they give you 2 lands and ramp one so there is some card advantage and some ramp for low mana. I personally run more of the critters as I can strap a sword to them or use light and shadow / sun titan to rez them for some abuse. Also they can be persisted off of cauldron or attached to a Mimic Vat for some fun.
I do feel like your ramp game sort of sucks though. I would encourage you to look at some of those early game ramp options.
Also in my mind Vigor and Yosei, the Morning Star sort of suck. Do you ever tutor for these guys? They seem a bit lacking. You could always cut some of them for more ramp.
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@CodaPDX: How has Visions of Beyond worked for you so far? I have sort of contemplated it but I dont see graveyards get that large most games. And if it does it would be very late in the game. Brainstorm is a guarenteed effect everytime on the other hand and if I have a shuffle effect I can toss out the stuff I dont want. I have thought about Visions before in the past but I have yet to run it. How has your experience with the card been so far?
Also, have you considered swapping Day of Judgment -> Route or perhaps even Oblivion Stone? I have found Day of Judgment to be a bit lackluster in my experience. Very rarely do I need that wrath on turn 4 unless I am playing against Edric.
I like the idea of recurring Oblivion Stone with the titan will prolly swap it in for sunblast angel.
Vigor was originally added cause he very good considering a lot of my creatures are a bit smaller than my opponents and he combos with the Empyrial Archangel pretty nicely, swords can protect him too.
Yosei, like Keiga, were originally included as the target for the Reveillark combo but thinking about it Yosei is a bit like Sower of Temptation and is much better in 1v1 rather than multiplayer.
Doesn't hurt to give different things a try, think I'll give the following a try next time I play.
Mirror Entity for Phyrexian Altar
Oblivion Stone for Sunblast Angel
Gilded Drake for Sower of Temptation
Yavimaya Elder for Vorinclex
Farhaven Elf for Mana Reflection
Cultivate for Yosei
Kodama's Reach for Vigor
Without Vigor, I'm tempted to cut the Archangel but it has held off my opponents on it's own before as 8 toughness is quite a bit.
I chose Farhaven Elf over Sakura Tribe Elder as they can both be rezed with sun titan and reveillark but the elf can also be bounced. Likewise Yavimaya Elder can be rezed to draw cards if nothing else in a long game.
This would give me 7 ramp cards and the Snake, most of which are 4cc and below, I guess this should give better consistency despite the individual cards being less powerful and bouncing
sounds like some good changes. Keep in mind that ramping lands 1-2 at a time is a lot less flashy and it draws a lot less hate as well. I would always be willing to tutor up an art/ enchant hate and blow out a mana double effect as they usually result in that player winning. These things draw a lot of hate and rarely stick arround in a meta that knows how good they are. The lower mana ramp will get you up to speed faster and bring down less hate as well as giving you other things to abuse.
If you feel you need another bomby creature I would recommend Akroma, Angel of Wrath she might be a good replacement for Empyrial Archangel if you ever decide to cut that. Akroma has haste so she hits right away and vigilance + first strike which makes her an amazing defensive creature as she wins in most combat so people wont attack into her but she still gets to attack out. I use her for probably 20-30% of my kills. Her pro black / red can come in handy as well. It really cuts back on the colors that can spot remove her.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I don't have a problem with the low curve mana ramp I think it's a good addition but I don't feel it's necesarry to cut your mana doublers for them.
Mana Reflection and Mirari's Wake are exceptional cards that if your're allowed to untap with them it can swing the game so far in your favor. I suggest running them in addition to your low curve mana ramp.
I suppose the question here is really can you get away with them. I ran an omnath deck in my meta once and I went through 3 or 4 mana doublers. They all died within a turn. My meta is very heavy on art / enchant removal and I cant get away with them. Also consider the benefit of getting up to mana faster. The mana doublers are nice but they are a bit slower. Tapping out on turn 6 for a mana doubler is a good way to have it stripped as well.
I guess it depends on the likelihood that it will die. In my meta it is high. It might be different for you though. Also the downside is that it is slower to start ramping.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Even when there is a lot of artifact enchantment hate in your group, as there is in mine as well, I don't believe it warrants the exclusion of the two of those. You have to stop looking at them as ramp and more as must answer bombs cause in the end that's what they are. Just like Survival of the Fittest or Consecrated Sphinx if left unchecked it can win you the game. Just my two cents, keep the low curve ramp in addition to the mana doublers.
The difference between them in my mind is that very few people can answer a turn 2 Survival and if I drop it in late I can use it before it gets destroyed. Mana Doublers are hard to utilize the turn they come down. This might be the inner spike in me but I like things that I can really maximize right away. Consecrated Sphinx is still alright due to the fact that if nobody has spot removal for it right away you still draw cards. I dont like how random it can be sometimes though as sometimes it draws you no cards and some times it draws you 20+ cards. I still run it though as it can be profitable. I dont always have the right things to utilize mana coming out my ears though. my curve is fairly low and I hate overcommitment to the board. It might work out alright though in a more controlling version of Jenara though due to then being able to keep up mana to counter things.
Still it might just be my inner spike. I usually ramp just fine without mana double effects and I dont like how slow they are to drop in.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I think you answered our debate witout even realizing it.
It's all about aggro versus control. The beauty of Bant is it can do so many things with the two most common being aggro and control. As you know I run a very control heavy build with a very low curve so mana ramp is not as important to me because my early game is about defense and a late game mana doubler puts me over the edge into victory. The more aggro version wants to come out of the fare fast and hard ramping early game to put as much pressure on as soon as possible. That's where I can see mana doublers not shining as much because turn ax is where you wanna be dropping threats.
I don't think it's so much a competitive or casual thing but more of a style thing.
I dont always have the right things to utilize mana coming out my ears though.
I'm going to call you on this one. When your general is a mana sink, you should always be able to utilize extra mana. I know your deck plays out as more of an aggro deck, but you always have the option to funnel tons of mana into a monstrous angelic finisher.
In a deck like this one, where you're playing the control game then using Jenara to seal the deal, I would definitely run the mana doublers alongside early ramp.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Well the deal with mine is I dont always have Jenara out. I tend to drop her in on turn 3 and then use her till she dies then I will wait until later in the game to bring her back in. She is fast enough though that I try to utilize that fast 3 drop before everyone has cloged up the board and use her flying to connect a few times. It really puts a bit of panic into players wondering if they should wrath just to get her which stalls their ramping.
Jenara is great with extra mana but I dont always have her in play. Also I consider going from 10 mana to 20 mana a bit of a winmore advantage for agro. I could instead have had an answer or have ramped up faster thus improving my tempo faster. If Jenara would be great with 10 mana avalible sure she will be moderately better with 20 mana avalible. But a spot removal is still a spot removal to answer her. She might do it a bit faster but she is still as easy to chump block, maze, or spot remove as if you only had 10 mana avalible.
While I wont deny that having double mana is fine all around there are other things I would rather do like ramp earlier.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
@CodaPDX: How has Visions of Beyond worked for you so far? I have sort of contemplated it but I dont see graveyards get that large most games. And if it does it would be very late in the game. Brainstorm is a guarenteed effect everytime on the other hand and if I have a shuffle effect I can toss out the stuff I dont want. I have thought about Visions before in the past but I have yet to run it. How has your experience with the card been so far?
Also, have you considered swapping Day of Judgment -> Route or perhaps even Oblivion Stone? I have found Day of Judgment to be a bit lackluster in my experience. Very rarely do I need that wrath on turn 4 unless I am playing against Edric.
Visions is something of a meta call for me. There are a lot of graveyard recursion and mill decks running around, so you're probably going to see 20 cards in a graveyard by the midgame. My deck also does a pretty decent job of filling up its own graveyard with Fact or Fiction, Sphinx of Uthuun, Genesis Wave, and such. It's not a guaranteed draw 3, but it's a pretty fantastic target for Mnemonic Wall and Eternal Witness in the lategame.
As for Day of Judgment, yeah, there are plenty of better options out there. I just have really pretty full art foil DoJs, so I'm making a small concession to style over substance. If I was going to replace it with something, it would probably be either Rout or Sunblast Angel.
As for the ramp/doubling debate, I think that early game ramp is essential. Big mana is big mana, and there isn't a huge difference between 10 and 20, but there is a huge difference between 4 and 8. Being able to drop your Primeval Titan before anyone else or get Venser online before your opponents can apply enough pressure to keep him under control is extremely important. Mana doublers are also extremely vulnerable. Sure, black and red decks aren't going to be able to answer a Mirari's Wake very well, but most other colors are probably going to be able to answer it in short order. Putting more land on the table makes you much more resistant to disruption. That's not to say that I don't think you should run mana doublers - I just think they occupy a very different niche than ramp spells.
Visions is something of a meta call for me. There are a lot of graveyard recursion and mill decks running around, so you're probably going to see 20 cards in a graveyard by the midgame. My deck also does a pretty decent job of filling up its own graveyard with Fact or Fiction, Sphinx of Uthuun, Genesis Wave, and such. It's not a guaranteed draw 3, but it's a pretty fantastic target for Mnemonic Wall and Eternal Witness in the lategame.
As for Day of Judgment, yeah, there are plenty of better options out there. I just have really pretty full art foil DoJs, so I'm making a small concession to style over substance. If I was going to replace it with something, it would probably be either Rout or Sunblast Angel.
Ahh ok then both are understandable. I don't think that Visions will see play in my deck as we have started really busting out the grave hate in our meta.
I suppose I can forgive the Day for being foiled full art
As for the ramp/doubling debate, I think that early game ramp is essential. Big mana is big mana, and there isn't a huge difference between 10 and 20, but there is a huge difference between 4 and 8. Being able to drop your Primeval Titan before anyone else or get Venser online before your opponents can apply enough pressure to keep him under control is extremely important. Mana doublers are also extremely vulnerable. Sure, black and red decks aren't going to be able to answer a Mirari's Wake very well, but most other colors are probably going to be able to answer it in short order. Putting more land on the table makes you much more resistant to disruption. That's not to say that I don't think you should run mana doublers - I just think they occupy a very different niche than ramp spells.
There that was what I was trying to say and just couldn't put it into words as well. I wouldn't cut back on the early game ramp by saying you have mana doubler effects in their place. These effects tend to draw a lot of hate and serve a different purpose.
EDIT: Also sort of a tec card that I used to run way back is Vanish into Memory in a wrath you can save Jenara and turn her counters into profitable card draw, you can hate on other vultron commanders by removing their buffs and what not and turning it into card draw. I have always wanted to use it on an Omnath to draw like 15 cards. It was really cool and a lot of fun but it was better suited for a control style deck that keeps mana open. I just couldn't ever cast it when I wanted to. You can use it to flicker an ETB effect as well and cycle off lands and what not. It seems like a card worth testing in a control version of Jenara.
EDIT 2: lol I would edit this post like right when you would come in t poast lol.
Nice debate guys, given my deck is more controlling and aims to win with incremental advantage the mana doubling might be my version of an aggro decks fatty. Will play about with it and see what's best, although I like the fact that Vorinclex is easy to tutor for but easier to kill. The decks in my meta have reasonable enchantment removal but someone can often get a mana reflection (or another good enchantment) to stick for quite a while.
Just had a thought, Martyr's Cause as a sac engine for the reveillark combo, it also gets genesis in the graveyard and can be helpful to stop a general beating my face in.
Any suggestions of something to drop, or is it not worth running? I've never played with the card before.
Additionally, Pathfinder said that Akroma could be a good bomb for the deck, but what about running sword of vengeance instead? That way any of my medium/big creatures becomes an akroma-like threat. Can anyone offer some experience in this area?
Well, I've never had to use Martyr's Cause when I've got it in play so the jury's still out on that one. Sword of Vengence however is a beast!
In a long 3 player game with Akroma, Angel of Wrath and Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund as my opponents the sword managed to hold them both back, aided by Jenara's pump ability.
Had a few stally games recently where the decks just not done anything but give me my enchantments and equipment, eh it happens.
The first draft of this deck was a combo deck built around the reveillark combo and an infinite landfall combo (which I never assembled) however over the last year it's been modded such that it's more about grinding out card advantage using creatures with CitP abilities and some good bounce/blink effects.
Most recent additions are the 3 swords and Stoneforge Mystic, I wanted a [card]Sword of Feast and Famine[/deck] in the deck so decided to add the full 4 card package.
Please let me know what you think.
1 Jenara, Asura of War
Recursion - 8
2 Body Double
3 Genesis
4 Reveilark
5 Karmic Guide
6 Saffi Ericksdotter
7 Sun Titan
8 Mnemonic Wall
9 Eternal Witness
Mana Ramp - 8
10 Farhaven Elf
11 Yavimaya Elder
12 Cultivate
13 Kodama's Reach
14 Solemn Simulacrum
15 Garruk Wildspeaker
16 Mirari's Wake
17 Primeval Titan
Card Draw - 3
18 Coiling Oracle
19 Mulldrifter
20 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Tutor - 4
21 Chord of Calling
22 Survival of the Fittest
23 Tooth and Nail
24 Wargate
Counter - 7
25 Hinder
26 Glen Elendra Archmage
27 Pact of Negation
28 Spelljack
29 Draining Whelk
30 Mystic Snake
31 Cryptic Command
32 Duplicant
33 Archon of Justice
34 Woodfall Primus
35 Terastodon
36 Acidic Slime
37 Sunblast Angel
38 Keiga, the Tide Star
39 Sower of Temptation
40 Austere Command
41 Bant Charm
42 Swords to Plowshares
Equipment - 4
43 Stoneforge Mystic
44 Sword of Fire and Ice
45 Sword of Light and Shadow
46 Sword of Feast and Famine
Bounce
47 Tidespout Tyrant
48 Mimic Vat
49 Mistmeadow Witch
50 Crystal Shard
51 Venser, the Sojourner
52 Capsize
53 Ghostway
Misc
54 Knight-Captain of Eos
55 Seedborn Muse
56 Chancellor of the Spires
57 Empyrial Archangel
58 Mirror Entity
59 Stonecloaker
60 Genesis Wave
61 Rite of Replication
62 Seaside Citadel
63 Skyshroud Expanse
64 Sungrass Prairie
65 Celestial Colonnade
66 Stirring Wildwood
67 Vivid Meadow
68 Vivid Creek
69 Vivid Grove
70 Azorius Chancery
71 Selesnya Sanctuary
72 Simic Growth Chamber
73 Mystic Gate
74 Wooded Bastion
75 Flooded Grove
76 Terramorphic Expanse
77 Bant Panorama
78 Krosan Verge
79 Mystifying Maze
80 Winding Canyons
81 Reliquary Tower
82 Tectonic Edge
83 Ghost Quarter
84 High Market
85 Miren, the Moaning Well
86 Mistveil Plains
87 Tolaria West
3 Plains
5 Island
5 Forest
Change Log
Mistmeadow Witch in for Stormfront Riders
Spelljack in for Spellburst (less likely to irritate opponents)
Mirror Entity for Phyrexian Altar
Yavimaya Elder for Vorinclex
Farhaven Elf for Mana Reflection
Cultivate for Yosei
Kodama's Reach for Vigor
Could probably use a Kor Haven in the lands but it's slipped my mind whenever I've been ordering cards.
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Genesis my concerns here are that you dont have many ways of sacing / discarding him in the list. Do you just drop him in and wait for him to block / get wrathed? Have you had any problems doing this in the past? What is your usual means to get him to the bin?
Phyrexian Altar (misspelt in the list) I was also currious as to why this was in here. You only have a handfull of things worth sacing to get rid of them such as the above Genesis. What do you usually have this in here for? Why only one sac outlet and why this one in specific?
Garruk Wildspeaker I tend to find planeswalkers hard to defend so I try for ones that have very strong results very quickly. I dont think his untap function is worth it as in my own meta I wouldnt have him next turn so why pay 2 mana for a card who usually dies to a few chumps flying his way?
Spell Burst this spell can cost a monsterous amount of mana. Is it worth it? What if you just had a Hinder, Arcane Denial instead? Have you felt that the mana for this has been worth it? Usually buyback spells being abused is a good way to get a lot of people pissed off at you, has this been an issue?
Cryptic Command UUU spells always concern me. Especially on one that is as reactive as a counterspell. Has this been an issue or has the utility behind the spell been worth it? I know of a few others who have run this in a control version of Jenara. How have you found it?
Sword of Feast and Famine my concern is that if you tap out before you swing then all that needs to happen is chump, maze, or spot removal the creature carrying it and you are stuck tapped out. You cant use it to pump Jenara until after she has already connected either which sort of sucks. I have had more luck with Darksteel Plate personally but I suppose you are going for more of a control style. Just thought I would drop you some food for thought on this sword.
Tidespout Tyrant generally this guy is best in a storm style deck that just drops spell after spell in a turn. I dont know about it in this list as this guy is something that I tend to hate all over as he is sort of a dick.
Stormfront Riders the only time I ever tried using this guy I felt he was really clunky and slow. You might consider running like Whitemane Lion as it costs less and has flash.
Knight-Captain of Eos you might look at Spike Weaver as it is a similar style card. I cant say which you will like more but Spike Weaver tends to see more play in EDH.
Keiga, the Tide Star my big problem with Keiga is that if someone just wraths you, exiles Keiga, or steals Keiga it isnt so great. I still use this bugger in my Teferi list which I am working to get back up an and running. I like it there due to the flash option but I don't know about just dropping it into play. In my experience it is best used as more of a combat trick or a deck with lots of sac outlets. Either way I don't feel like it is very suited for your list.
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To be honest I haven't hit him in a while, the plan would be to just go aggro with him or use him to chump depending on what my opponent's doing. Do you have a better suggestion for repeatable recursion? I've not been impressed with Reya Dawnbringer due to her cost and her being killed quickly.
Thanks for the heads-up on the typo. Good sac outlets are hard to find in GWU. This one allows me to trigger the Reveillark combo without using Mirror Entity to repetitively wrath my own field. Additionally, it lets me generate infinite mana with any 2 of Reveillark, Saffi Eriksdotter and Karmic guide. I recently had a look for a better alternative but couldn't see one.
I've actually got quite good mileage out of Garruk Wildspeaker, he does occasionally get stuck in my hand due to vulnerability but on the whole I've been happy.
My meta is a bit weird as I play with 2 groups, 1 got me into EDH and have some nasty decks (including a Maga deck which repeatedly wraths with Kagemaro and Corpse Dance). The other, which I play with more often, are my uni friends who I introduced to EDH and a bit more casual.
I've more often had to cast this without buyback to stop a spell in the midgame so not had to lock someone out yet. Trying to decide where the balance between strong defense and irritating is; this is probably the latter.
I've been ok with the mana on this, screw happens in 3 colour decks but Cryptic is strong enough to warrant the risk in my book and has been pretty good. Also, cryptic into sunblast angel is pretty funny.
All 3 swords and the mystic are brand new additions so have yet to be tested. I realise there are risks with it but I'm curious to see how it'll work. Thanks for the thoughts.
I'm running him more as a way to bounce my own creatures to use their abilities again, having said that I've had him played against me when a friend borrowed the deck and it did a good job of annoying me and my mate when our stuff kept getting bounced. Not had to many issues thus far.
Yeah, he was on the chopping block when I was modding the deck but made the cut. He is rather slow but does what he needs to and fuels the Knight-Captain. He's likely to be the next cut but it was funny making infinite soldiers then dropping Akroma's Memorial (which was recently cut).
My non-white decks run the spike in combo with forgotten ancient as an alternative to the 2 cards above, not sure which I prefer, I guess both the green cards are recurrable with Reveillark but the bounce effect of the riders is also handy.
These are all good points, they've not came up too often thus far and Keiga tends to be very good at holding off my opponents and is just silly if I get the Reveillark combo going. Will keep an eye on her.
Thanks for the feedback, its good to have someone else who's familiar with the general to give their opinion on the deck. You've picked up on some of the cards I have started to lose faith in so it's good to have those thoughts echoed.
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Good luck with the others. Let me know if you need any help. I am always happy to lend a hand to another Jenara player.
EDIT: also just a heads up, you might not find Pact of Negation that great in your build as I have found it to be sort of lackluster if you actually keep mana open for counterspells most turns. I had the problem in my Teferi deck that it was better to just run an actual counterspell if I was going to keep mana open. Pact is alright in a counterspell war or if you plan on tapping out from time to time. Me running an agro version I tend to tap out a lot or keep 1-3 mana left open so I find that Pact is great for my deck's playstyle. It might change a bit going to more of a control version.
EDIT 2: also you might try Mistmeadow Witch instead of those Stormfront Riders. The Witch is extremely good and I almost run it myself but I find it too control based for me. You can use it to flicker out guys with tokens on them, reuse persist guys, retrigger ETB effects, flicker out fatties so they cant hit you. It has tons of uses and it can be used at instant speed which is sooooo much better than the riders.
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Pact is also a new addition, although I'm a control build most of the cards are creatures so I do have to tap out now and again. Also why I favour the mana-doubling effects over the early ramp spells. Will see how it goes I guess.
I used to run the witch but cut it when I made a big mod recently. You're prolly right as the witch bounces the knight-captain (or spike weaver) to refresh them easier than the riders. Thanks.
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I also noticed that your ramp is a little top-heavy. You have good mana doublers and Prime Time, but everything down below seems either conditional, vulnerable, or slow. I'd recommend running some combination of the Fab Five: Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Skyshroud Claim, Hunting Wilds, and Explosive Vegetation.
Your list looks a little light on the card draw - maybe Sphinx of Uthuun and/or Fact or Fiction?
Finally, I'd also recommend running Hallowed Burial - it's the best removal spell in the format.
Mana ramp is something I've been playing with.I used to run 35 land in a deck but with up to 10 ramp spells across the curve, this worked well if I ramped in turns 2 - 4 but if I didn't hit ramp or got screwed for green it just sucked. Running 39 - 40 lands has made my decks curve out a lot smoother so I've cut a lot of the early ramp in favour of late game doubling etc so once I'm in full swing I have mana enough to cast creatures and have mana up to counter with. Realistically, I'd have to run most of the Fab Five for them to show up often enough to make a difference and I wouldn't know where to start making cuts for them, any suggestions?
I've got an Sphinx ordered and will be trying to fit him in once he arrives.
Hallowed Burial is indeed great, I think I'm running my 2 copies elsewhere atm. Sunblast angel has not performed as well as I'd hoped so far (keep drawing her on stalled boards so nothing's tapped) so I may well swap them about.
Thanks for the ideas. Had a quick squint over your Jenara list, very nice, you added some of the cards I've considered in the past (cauldron of souls) but then I have a larger counter suite so I had to make concessions for that.
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As for the ramp issues. What I am seeing from your list is that your ramp options are just so slow and they are vulnerable to removal. I have found that using mana stones, and land ramp tends to pull less hate their way. Mana doublers sort of scream you guys should kill this or kill this player. I would consider cutting some of the following:
Garruk Wildspeaker I dont like how planeswalkers tend to die quickly. While he might last you a few turns if you are lucky it is unlikely that you will be able to keep him arround as mana ramp for more than 3-4 turns. You are going to want mana for most of the game as you are playing a control deck.
Mana Reflection, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, Mirari's Wake these effects are really really slow to get rolling. Honestly I would cut them way back. Mirari's Wake is the best of them if you were to keep one of them. I would probably cut the other two though as you need early ramp.
Some options that you could look at for ramping:
Generally speaking a lot of people will go with Cultivate / Kodama's Reach first as they give you 2 lands and ramp one so there is some card advantage and some ramp for low mana. I personally run more of the critters as I can strap a sword to them or use light and shadow / sun titan to rez them for some abuse. Also they can be persisted off of cauldron or attached to a Mimic Vat for some fun.
I do feel like your ramp game sort of sucks though. I would encourage you to look at some of those early game ramp options.
Also in my mind Vigor and Yosei, the Morning Star sort of suck. Do you ever tutor for these guys? They seem a bit lacking. You could always cut some of them for more ramp.
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@CodaPDX: How has Visions of Beyond worked for you so far? I have sort of contemplated it but I dont see graveyards get that large most games. And if it does it would be very late in the game. Brainstorm is a guarenteed effect everytime on the other hand and if I have a shuffle effect I can toss out the stuff I dont want. I have thought about Visions before in the past but I have yet to run it. How has your experience with the card been so far?
Also, have you considered swapping Day of Judgment -> Route or perhaps even Oblivion Stone? I have found Day of Judgment to be a bit lackluster in my experience. Very rarely do I need that wrath on turn 4 unless I am playing against Edric.
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Vigor was originally added cause he very good considering a lot of my creatures are a bit smaller than my opponents and he combos with the Empyrial Archangel pretty nicely, swords can protect him too.
Yosei, like Keiga, were originally included as the target for the Reveillark combo but thinking about it Yosei is a bit like Sower of Temptation and is much better in 1v1 rather than multiplayer.
Doesn't hurt to give different things a try, think I'll give the following a try next time I play.
Mirror Entity for Phyrexian Altar
Oblivion Stone for Sunblast Angel
Gilded Drake for Sower of Temptation
Yavimaya Elder for Vorinclex
Farhaven Elf for Mana Reflection
Cultivate for Yosei
Kodama's Reach for Vigor
Without Vigor, I'm tempted to cut the Archangel but it has held off my opponents on it's own before as 8 toughness is quite a bit.
I chose Farhaven Elf over Sakura Tribe Elder as they can both be rezed with sun titan and reveillark but the elf can also be bounced. Likewise Yavimaya Elder can be rezed to draw cards if nothing else in a long game.
This would give me 7 ramp cards and the Snake, most of which are 4cc and below, I guess this should give better consistency despite the individual cards being less powerful and bouncing
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If you feel you need another bomby creature I would recommend Akroma, Angel of Wrath she might be a good replacement for Empyrial Archangel if you ever decide to cut that. Akroma has haste so she hits right away and vigilance + first strike which makes her an amazing defensive creature as she wins in most combat so people wont attack into her but she still gets to attack out. I use her for probably 20-30% of my kills. Her pro black / red can come in handy as well. It really cuts back on the colors that can spot remove her.
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I'll keep the angry lady in mind if I feel another big beater is required. Thanks for the help.
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Mana Reflection and Mirari's Wake are exceptional cards that if your're allowed to untap with them it can swing the game so far in your favor. I suggest running them in addition to your low curve mana ramp.
Experimental Kraj
I guess it depends on the likelihood that it will die. In my meta it is high. It might be different for you though. Also the downside is that it is slower to start ramping.
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Experimental Kraj
Still it might just be my inner spike. I usually ramp just fine without mana double effects and I dont like how slow they are to drop in.
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It's all about aggro versus control. The beauty of Bant is it can do so many things with the two most common being aggro and control. As you know I run a very control heavy build with a very low curve so mana ramp is not as important to me because my early game is about defense and a late game mana doubler puts me over the edge into victory. The more aggro version wants to come out of the fare fast and hard ramping early game to put as much pressure on as soon as possible. That's where I can see mana doublers not shining as much because turn ax is where you wanna be dropping threats.
I don't think it's so much a competitive or casual thing but more of a style thing.
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I'm going to call you on this one. When your general is a mana sink, you should always be able to utilize extra mana. I know your deck plays out as more of an aggro deck, but you always have the option to funnel tons of mana into a monstrous angelic finisher.
In a deck like this one, where you're playing the control game then using Jenara to seal the deal, I would definitely run the mana doublers alongside early ramp.
Jenara is great with extra mana but I dont always have her in play. Also I consider going from 10 mana to 20 mana a bit of a winmore advantage for agro. I could instead have had an answer or have ramped up faster thus improving my tempo faster. If Jenara would be great with 10 mana avalible sure she will be moderately better with 20 mana avalible. But a spot removal is still a spot removal to answer her. She might do it a bit faster but she is still as easy to chump block, maze, or spot remove as if you only had 10 mana avalible.
While I wont deny that having double mana is fine all around there are other things I would rather do like ramp earlier.
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Visions is something of a meta call for me. There are a lot of graveyard recursion and mill decks running around, so you're probably going to see 20 cards in a graveyard by the midgame. My deck also does a pretty decent job of filling up its own graveyard with Fact or Fiction, Sphinx of Uthuun, Genesis Wave, and such. It's not a guaranteed draw 3, but it's a pretty fantastic target for Mnemonic Wall and Eternal Witness in the lategame.
As for Day of Judgment, yeah, there are plenty of better options out there. I just have really pretty full art foil DoJs, so I'm making a small concession to style over substance. If I was going to replace it with something, it would probably be either Rout or Sunblast Angel.
As for the ramp/doubling debate, I think that early game ramp is essential. Big mana is big mana, and there isn't a huge difference between 10 and 20, but there is a huge difference between 4 and 8. Being able to drop your Primeval Titan before anyone else or get Venser online before your opponents can apply enough pressure to keep him under control is extremely important. Mana doublers are also extremely vulnerable. Sure, black and red decks aren't going to be able to answer a Mirari's Wake very well, but most other colors are probably going to be able to answer it in short order. Putting more land on the table makes you much more resistant to disruption. That's not to say that I don't think you should run mana doublers - I just think they occupy a very different niche than ramp spells.
Ahh ok then both are understandable. I don't think that Visions will see play in my deck as we have started really busting out the grave hate in our meta.
I suppose I can forgive the Day for being foiled full art
There that was what I was trying to say and just couldn't put it into words as well. I wouldn't cut back on the early game ramp by saying you have mana doubler effects in their place. These effects tend to draw a lot of hate and serve a different purpose.
EDIT: Also sort of a tec card that I used to run way back is Vanish into Memory in a wrath you can save Jenara and turn her counters into profitable card draw, you can hate on other vultron commanders by removing their buffs and what not and turning it into card draw. I have always wanted to use it on an Omnath to draw like 15 cards. It was really cool and a lot of fun but it was better suited for a control style deck that keeps mana open. I just couldn't ever cast it when I wanted to. You can use it to flicker an ETB effect as well and cycle off lands and what not. It seems like a card worth testing in a control version of Jenara.
EDIT 2: lol I would edit this post like right when you would come in t poast lol.
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Any suggestions of something to drop, or is it not worth running? I've never played with the card before.
Additionally, Pathfinder said that Akroma could be a good bomb for the deck, but what about running sword of vengeance instead? That way any of my medium/big creatures becomes an akroma-like threat. Can anyone offer some experience in this area?
Thanks.
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In a long 3 player game with Akroma, Angel of Wrath and Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund as my opponents the sword managed to hold them both back, aided by Jenara's pump ability.
Had a few stally games recently where the decks just not done anything but give me my enchantments and equipment, eh it happens.
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