OK, I can dig that list. I think there are some questions that you need to ask yourself before refining the list any further.
Are you trying to go big or stay midrange? I ask because the list has Damnation and O.Stone (which you're taking out) but it also runs 18 creatures, a few of which you REALLY don't want to kill. You don't really want to give back the card that your Sculler took, and the "can't regenerate" clause on Damnation makes your Troll sad. If you like this control route, try going bigger and playing some Planeswalkers like Liliana, Sorin, or Elspeth, Knight Errant, cutting some creatures for more removal, and maybe playing a larger "top end" creature. Grave Titan, Batterskull, Baneslayer Angel.
If you are trying to stay midrange then focus on gaining incremental advantage. Damnation is going to remove all of your progress , which seems bad. I'd try running sweepers that you have more control over, like Engineered Explosives or Crime//Punishment or play those Zealous Persecutions MD since they're mini-Wraths in a lot of matchups.
I know you like Stonecloaker, but maybe it would be even better with Restoration Angel as well? You have so many great enters the battlefield effects that it would be amazing to have more than 2 ways to re-use those. Move the Thruns to the SB for those control matchups and see how awesome Angels will be when you get 2 life and a refreshed Kitchen Finks, for instance, right away versus having to re-cast it.
Sigarda IS very tempting, and IDK if she or Baneslayer is the better 5-drop. I think the Lifelink matters enough right now for Angel to be my choice, but man is Sigarda tough to kill! You're already playing a control-deck's number of lands, so running 5-drops won't kill you. And don't worry too much about running 2 5-drops with Confidant. The odds of them flipping with Bob are low, and if Vintage players can afford to run Bob with 4x Force of Will, then so can we
Smiter is important in a few matchups and "merely" a solid undercosted 4/4. You really want them for Jund, the mirror, UW, and Twin. They're pretty bad against any combo deck, Tron, and other decks that ignore your creatures anyway. I think you want them in your 75 somewhere. They're too good against Jund in particular to just abandon.
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Random tech idea vs. Jund & other creature decks: Qasali Ambusher Yeah, that guy. I'm wondering if the huge tempo swing that a free 3/4 provides will help me in the Jund matchup? This creature matches well against most of Jund's creatures except for large Goyfs and Raging Ravine. It also is a surprise blocker for any of Affinity's flying lands, cards which I don't have many good answers for. This is probably terrible, but I'll try it and see what happens.
EDIT: Its only a 2/3?!? That's way worse than I thought. I don't think its good enough in that case
I can also go bigger. Jund packs Batterskull for the mirror, but I can do better than that since I have access to more White mana. Baneslayer Angel?
Thalia might go back in the deck somewhere. The more I think about it, the more I feel that its worth having this card in the SB to deal make RG Tron a winnable matchup, and ditto on the other spell heavy decks like Storm. She's going to die to Bolts and Pyroclasms, however, so maybe I should look at Thorn of Amythyst for the non-creature version of that effect. I'm hurting myself, but maybe with 23 lands and less reliance on Liliana I can make it work this time. I just need enough time in these matchups to get my big creatures online and race the inevitable bounce/removal/Emrakul...
Has anyone considered the idea of running Glittering Wish? I am a sucker for toolboxes and Glittering Wish has the luxury of providing answers/silver bullets/offense without having to invest maindeck space to do so.
Lantern, that sounds sweet. I've always had a soft spot for Squadron Hawk, which explains why I tried to make them work in various Bant decks last year. They could be great alongside Lingering Souls and Gavony Township, maybe Sorin as well.
Surging: I've seen some lists try that. It seems like a viable option. Possible targets: Maelstrom Pulse, Zealous, Golgari Charm, Kitchen Finks, Orzhov Pontiff, Gaddock Teeg.
The idea is to beat Jund using the power of Finks, Souls, and Gavony Township with Glittering Wish for utility. Otherwise, you are Jund with Paths in leu of Bolts. Let me know what you think
EDIT: Now that I have some more time, some thoughts on the deck. Firstly, I love Junk and I've been set on trying to make Knight of the Reliquary work in Modern. While Knight does shine against the control decks, I don't think he does enough in the Jund matchup. The theory with this deck is to have a very good maindeck against Jund with Glittering Wish giving you a powerful versatile tool. Many of the cards play dual roles in the deck and the ones that don't get boarded out; Thoughtseize and Path to Exile.
On the topic of Glittering Wish...
With Glittering Wish, you should always have Fracturing Gust- it's one of the best targets. I also knew I wanted graveyard hate so Jund Charm and Rakdos Charm both went on the table. For a while I was playing Rakdos Charm for Graveyards and Golgari Charm for the -1/-1 and the regenerate. (Note: Rakdos's life loss ability should almost never be good when your opponent can see it coming.) I realized Jund charm has the best of these abilities and saves valuable space. Regardless, I was splashing red. Is this greedy while still playing colorless lands? Probably. Four other things I knew I wanted were lifegain, land destruction, removal, and something to wish for against Jund and Control. Lifegain being finks just makes sense since it's cheap though I did think about others. The thought process behind not grabbing Huntmaster or Loxodon Hierach was that if you can muster the 4 mana choice, Sorin may be viable. LD was a tricky one. I was pretty sure I wanted Realm Razor as that card is a huge game changer and that's what Glittering Wish wants though I felt like having access to Fulminator Mage would also be good if you need to keep on of the Tron decks off mana early. With spaces so tight, I'm only playing one removal spell- though many times I "wish" I could've gotten Abrupt Decay (usually with 4 mana staring down a Bob). Pulse hits Pod and multiple threats which is why I like it but I could see this changing, especially with access to Jund Charm already for tokens. Lastly, Sorin fills the lategame and hard to remove role. The other choices were Sigarda, whose WW scared me (though she's still defendable- I also didn't like that she could be worse than Goyf), and Wurm Harvest, which was too slow in the Deathrite Shaman mirror. Huntmaster is also good- though worse against wrath effects from control decks (better than Sigarda there). I havent' tested Huntmaster or Ajani.
Nice take on this deck. There are some other options that might be worth trying as well in that Wish board:
Gaddock Teeg - against Tron G1, Storm, Scapeshift, etc. Orzhov Pontiff - might be better than Jund Charm since its a creature and doesn't require your splash color to kill creatures. Stillmoon Cavalier - Probably too fringe to be worth the slot. Burning-Tree Shaman - Punishes Twin especially, and will hurt a lot of decks randomly. It's kind of like a Rakdos Charm on legs in the Twin matchup. Golgari Charm - Quite a versatile card that can help against Infect, Affinity, save you against an impending Wrath against control, etc. It might even be worth having just as a "out" to Blood Moon!
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I was thinking about a way to add Bloodbraid Elf into Junk, since that is the biggest loss that we face by ditching Red. If Jund can stretch for the fourth color, so can we!
Although at this point, why am I not just copying Jund? It is worth nit-picking over the individual cards that both Red and White bring to the table, since that's where the major distinction is coming from.
If I go Red (Jund splash White) then I get the Lightning Bolts (better reach), Terminates (2-mana Path), and access to Rakdos Charm in my SB (good all-around answer that can count as slots against Twin, Affinity, Storm, etc.) If I stay White then I can play Path maindeck (better against Tron and UW, worse against Jund and other grindy decks), have access to Tidehollow Sculler, Zealous Persecution if I need it, and Loxodon Smiter. To make things worse, both decks can play all of these cards, just with less consistency based on whether White or Red gets the preferential mana treatment.
On mana, if White remains as a major color then I get to keep more Horizon Canopys around, Murmuring Bosk isn't as bad, and I have the option to go up to 25 lands and play either Vault of The Archangel or Gavony Township. If Red is my major color I get to use Raging Ravine if I want to (it is the best man land in Modern IMO.)
It might just be a meta call. If the format becomes more combo-heavy then I want to be on Junk, because I can build the list to have more discard effects and with White as a major color I will be able to cast those backbreaking anti-combo SB cards more often. If the format remains controlled by Jund and other creature-based decks, then I want to be Jund. Junk doesn't Jund's superior card advantage going long, and Jund is more of a dog to combo and Tron than Junk is.
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Another direction that we could take the deck is to re-tool Kibler's GW "little kid" deck to be more Junky. I really like the majority of Kibler's list, and would just run MD Tidehollow Scullers and Deathrite Shamans over Birds of Paradise, with a bit of mana base adjusting to make that work. The fact that he managed to fit a full regimen of Thalias into a deck without hurting himself, AND avoid the "too many durdles" trap is impressive. Still, I want harder removal than just 2/1s and 2/2s to protect me against all of the unfair decks.
Kameleon, do you have a link to the Top 8 lists for that PTQ? I didn't realize a Modern PTQ already fired. We still have 3 weeks of Sealed to look forward to in the US!
And I kinda agree that this is too far out from what we're playing to compare. The Gifts idea is always something to consider as a SB option. It wouldn't take much to add that Blue splash, but I don't want to lose that many SB slots either.
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
Hmm. I was thinking that Bob was relatively minor in Junk- there are lists floating about without him in here. I've already got some marsh flats, which I think removes some of the cost of the white, although I'd like catacombs too for Bosk fetching.
Some of the bigger lists are skipping Bob either for budget reasons or because there are too many 4+ drop cards that these players don't want to flip. Bob is REALLY powerful (played in Vintage good) but you do have to build around him and limit your deck to 3 or 4 drops max. I'm not going to say you don't need Bob, because I disagree with that notion, but if you don't have Bob there are alternatives that will work.
Phyrexian Arena Dark Tutelage (?) - Its a "Bob" enchantment. On the one hand, it costs 1 mana more, on the other, since it doesn't have legs it will be harder to kill. I'd rather just play Arena. Night's Whisper - Your "one shot" Bob activation.
Deathrites, even if I can get my hands on them, probably won't work until I've got 8-12 fetches, though, from the sounds of things, if I'm to run KotR. I love the idea of Doran and the really efficient beaters that GW bring to the table, though, so I'd like to stick with Junk or similar if I can.
Yeah, I've found that 10 fetches is where I am comfortable with Deathrite. I don't know of a good replacement for him, since his suite of abilities is unique.
Could shift to a slightly more aggressive build, I'd just worry about not having quite enough fetches for the lynxes to be worth it.
You're right... I had Dryad Militant in my early aggressive sketch of this deck. Its a aggressive body that happens to give Storm and Snapcaster Mage decks a lot of trouble!
If I'm going with a heavier aggro list, then Thalia a) is an efficient beater, and b) will play better with the deck, as it'll be creature heavy. I wasn't too much of a fan earlier, but she may work out- probably worth testing at least.
Something that we're trying in Standard is pairing Thalia with Judge's Familiar. Loam Lion is also an option. And don't forget the Rancors
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Unfortunately, Tidehollow Sculler continues to disappoint in testing. I got some games in against Scapeshift, and while I was slightly favored overall in the match up, I felt like I would have done better in a few situations with a different discard spell than Sculler.
Here's the issue: Sculler has legs. That means that my discard spell dies to creature removal, which EVERY even low tier competitive deck has a bunch of. Specifically, I am trying to Sculler hands that look like this:
What do you take? The card I need to take is Scapeshift. However, all that will accomplish is making sure that the Electrolyze hits my Sculler instead of something else. That matters if the opponent only has one removal spell so that I can clear the way for a Dark Confidant to stay on the field. I can take one of the removal spells, but then the card that kills me is still in that hand. This dilemma has played out over and over again in numerous match ups. I'm not saying goodbye to Sculler completely, but either he needs to be paired up with more discard spells (11+ like in some of my earlier lists) or he needs to be trimmed for more "guaranteed" discard.
On the other hand, when I want to take removal out of hands anyway (against fair decks) Sculler has been sweet. At that point, however, I am still in a bind with combat decisions, since I can't just send Sculler to battle without risking giving my opponent their card back...
- 1 Sculler
+ 1 Thoughtseize
Sculler might be better in an adaptation of the GW Kibler deck. Since there are SO many must-kill creatures that the GW deck plays, it will be hard for an opponent to justify taking out a 2/2 when there are tons of 4/4s to worry about as well.
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
I personally feel like Sculler is more of a balance thing. He eats removal like a pro, that's for one thing, and can essentially time walk your opponent+discard if you think about it.
"You wanted to play this card on your next turn? Gotta kill this first" It can potentially ruin their tempo. I've podded my shamans into Scullers to grab my friend's Regal Force putting him into top deck mode, that worked out long enough for me to find a sweeper for his army of elves.
But you're right. For the most part Sculler kinda just stands around in the back since opponents are normally very willing to trade for what you take away. Would be nice to have a way to abuse him.
Some of the bigger lists are skipping Bob either for budget reasons or because there are too many 4+ drop cards that these players don't want to flip. Bob is REALLY powerful (played in Vintage good) but you do have to build around him and limit your deck to 3 or 4 drops max. I'm not going to say you don't need Bob, because I disagree with that notion, but if you don't have Bob there are alternatives that will work.
You don't really have to build around Bob all that much. People have run Bob+Tombstalker in Legacy tournaments. If you've got 8+ four mana cards, then just run some Kitchen Finks, but I'm not sure why you'd want that many 4cc's anyway.
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You like Super Smash Bros.? Melee or Brawl? Check this out! http://projectm.dantarion.com/
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
You don't really have to build around Bob all that much. People have run Bob+Tombstalker in Legacy tournaments. If you've got 8+ four mana cards, then just run some Kitchen Finks, but I'm not sure why you'd want that many 4cc's anyway.
Those decks are also playing Sensei's Divining Top so they never flip an 8 mana spell. Even then it's pretty rare to find Confidant and Tombstalker in the same deck.
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Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
I've been thinking of what I'd put in for Affinity matches. I've been considering Creeping Corrosion but I think that Infest could fit the bill. It comes down a turn earlier too. I think that matters against Affinity.
Thinking about my 3rd and 4th drop slots. Considering Mirri the Cursed. I've found Thrun to be more of a defensive card than an offensive one. Then there's Restoration Angel. I might get two. She feels very useful to me.
My list seems to really wait on a Vault of the Archangel to plop down so I can really kick things into gear. I might consider getting a Gavony Township sooner so that I can try that approach of making guys bigger.
Greenpoe is right in the context of Vintage. There its OK to run Confidant and Force of Will since most of the format revolves around decks with no creatures, and there are tons of cantrips and tutors that you are casting anyway to mitigate the Confidant flips. In Legacy that is more of a risk due to creature-based strategies having more clout in the format, but he is still used quite often. Sensei's Top helps greatly, like Badd mentioned.
In Modern, nearly every deck is full of creatures. The top deck in the format plays plenty of creatures and burn spells to back them up. In this format we need to keep tabs on our resources (like life) more closely, because these games are going to go longer and we will get more flips. Confidant is a great card and I will never cut it, but I can't just jam 5 or 6-drops and feel comfortable with that in most games.
There's not much that we want at 4+ mana anyway. At 4 mana I could see Elspeth, Knight Errant, Garruk Relentless, Sorin, or splash for Bloodbraid Elf. At 5 we're looking at Baneslayer Angel or Sigarda, maybe Batterskull. There's lots of awesome creatures at 6 like Wurmcoil Engine, but at that point we'll need some acceleration or a really good reason not to play Tron...
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
Ses, how about Elspeth, Knight Errant? She'll "jump" your smaller guys and is a pretty sweet top deck to boot. Or just go for another 3 drop like Liliana of The Veil?
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
For whatever reason I'm still proactively avoiding Liliana. I can't imagine trading cards with the opponent. Id rather run cards that are better than theirs.
Elspeth looks like a good way to go. I like the idea. My set up is currently lacking reach and I find myself waiting on stonecloaker because he's got evasion but he's also first to get cut off my list. There's something wrong there.
For whatever reason I'm still proactively avoiding Liliana. I can't imagine trading cards with the opponent. Id rather run cards that are better than theirs.
Elspeth looks like a good way to go. I like the idea. My set up is currently lacking reach and I find myself waiting on stonecloaker because he's got evasion but he's also first to get cut off my list. There's something wrong there.
I might even consider Mirri the Cursed or Glissa the Traitor. Gotta get some power creep going.
/phone
The big problem with Mystic Enforcer is the fact that Deathrite Shaman has become so present in Modern lately. It's hard to get threshold when Deathrite Shaman is picking off your graveyard.
For whatever reason I'm still proactively avoiding Liliana. I can't imagine trading cards with the opponent. Id rather run cards that are better than theirs.
Elspeth looks like a good way to go. I like the idea. My set up is currently lacking reach and I find myself waiting on stonecloaker because he's got evasion but he's also first to get cut off my list. There's something wrong there.
The trick with Liliana is to play cards that you don't mind pitching with her +1, or just play enough cheap cards that you'll be empty or just pitching excess lands anyway. Lingering Souls is a prime candidate for a +1 discard.
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I was thinking of using Auriok Champion as a card that could set us apart from Jund while also improving that matchup. Jund only has as many outs to this card as it has Lilianas, and of course I will have more than one creature on the board most of the time. The card bricks every Jund creature except Goyf. IDK, but I think its worth some test games to see how things go.
The "Soul Sister" ability is very useful against Twin and Pod decks as a bonus, and Twin only has a few bounce spells to deal with that plus any other hate.
Mirran Crusader is also worth considering, IF Lightning Bolt doesn't get played. Since that card is an auto four-of in Jund Crusader seems much less appealing. Did you know that the only other creature with Protection from Green in the entire format is a BB 1/1 from Planar Chaos? Weird!
With Auriok Champion in my head, I was seeing if there was some way to make her more impressive. She's only a 1/1, so she's mainly a wall and a persistent life gain spell. That may be enough on its own, but I think the Steelshaper's Gift & Swords plan is worth another look with Champion in the picture.
Testing against Tron continues to be troublesome. Locally I will HAVE to be able to beat that deck, since 3 people at my store are building the deck. I'll probably just end up playing Storm at any local Modern events, and then this or Jund at the PTQs, but I still want to have at least a fighting chance of beating this deck.
I'm going to try instant-speed sacrifice effects next. Geth's Verdict and Tribute to Hunger can both keep an Emrakul from hitting me and force my opponent to use Eye of Ugin to get it back. It buys me a turn. What if I could one-shot the opponent while also keeping Emrakul from hitting me? Are you ready for some super secret tech I found while searching Gatherer...?
Yeah, Hit, half of Hit // Run. I would have to splash Red, but if I cast this against Emrakul, THEY take 15. Assuming I attacked with anything during the game, this should be instant death. This also kills Wurmcoils and deals merely six damage for 1RB. I could even use the Run half of this card for a pump effect, but I doubt that will come up too often. Is it good? It depends on whether my opponent sees it coming (nope) because all they have to do to stop it is play another Artifact. I'll try this in games with Jund and see a) if it works at all, b) if its worth splashing for in Junk. Tribute To Hunger is my second option, and either card has the side bonus of being a card that I can bring in against Gifts decks.
Are you trying to go big or stay midrange? I ask because the list has Damnation and O.Stone (which you're taking out) but it also runs 18 creatures, a few of which you REALLY don't want to kill. You don't really want to give back the card that your Sculler took, and the "can't regenerate" clause on Damnation makes your Troll sad. If you like this control route, try going bigger and playing some Planeswalkers like Liliana, Sorin, or Elspeth, Knight Errant, cutting some creatures for more removal, and maybe playing a larger "top end" creature. Grave Titan, Batterskull, Baneslayer Angel.
If you are trying to stay midrange then focus on gaining incremental advantage. Damnation is going to remove all of your progress , which seems bad. I'd try running sweepers that you have more control over, like Engineered Explosives or Crime//Punishment or play those Zealous Persecutions MD since they're mini-Wraths in a lot of matchups.
I know you like Stonecloaker, but maybe it would be even better with Restoration Angel as well? You have so many great enters the battlefield effects that it would be amazing to have more than 2 ways to re-use those. Move the Thruns to the SB for those control matchups and see how awesome Angels will be when you get 2 life and a refreshed Kitchen Finks, for instance, right away versus having to re-cast it.
Sigarda IS very tempting, and IDK if she or Baneslayer is the better 5-drop. I think the Lifelink matters enough right now for Angel to be my choice, but man is Sigarda tough to kill! You're already playing a control-deck's number of lands, so running 5-drops won't kill you. And don't worry too much about running 2 5-drops with Confidant. The odds of them flipping with Bob are low, and if Vintage players can afford to run Bob with 4x Force of Will, then so can we
Smiter is important in a few matchups and "merely" a solid undercosted 4/4. You really want them for Jund, the mirror, UW, and Twin. They're pretty bad against any combo deck, Tron, and other decks that ignore your creatures anyway. I think you want them in your 75 somewhere. They're too good against Jund in particular to just abandon.
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Random tech idea vs. Jund & other creature decks: Qasali Ambusher Yeah, that guy. I'm wondering if the huge tempo swing that a free 3/4 provides will help me in the Jund matchup? This creature matches well against most of Jund's creatures except for large Goyfs and Raging Ravine. It also is a surprise blocker for any of Affinity's flying lands, cards which I don't have many good answers for. This is probably terrible, but I'll try it and see what happens.
EDIT: Its only a 2/3?!? That's way worse than I thought. I don't think its good enough in that case
I can also go bigger. Jund packs Batterskull for the mirror, but I can do better than that since I have access to more White mana. Baneslayer Angel?
Thalia might go back in the deck somewhere. The more I think about it, the more I feel that its worth having this card in the SB to deal make RG Tron a winnable matchup, and ditto on the other spell heavy decks like Storm. She's going to die to Bolts and Pyroclasms, however, so maybe I should look at Thorn of Amythyst for the non-creature version of that effect. I'm hurting myself, but maybe with 23 lands and less reliance on Liliana I can make it work this time. I just need enough time in these matchups to get my big creatures online and race the inevitable bounce/removal/Emrakul...
~ Brian DeMars
~ Brian DeMars
Surging: I've seen some lists try that. It seems like a viable option. Possible targets: Maelstrom Pulse, Zealous, Golgari Charm, Kitchen Finks, Orzhov Pontiff, Gaddock Teeg.
~ Brian DeMars
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Lingering Souls
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells: 18
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquistion of Kozilek
3 Glittering Wish
3 Lilliana of the Veil
3 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
1 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Gavony Township
2 Godless Shrine
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Extirpate
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Rule of Law
2 Slaughter Games
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Jund Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Realm Razor
1 Fulminator Mage
The idea is to beat Jund using the power of Finks, Souls, and Gavony Township with Glittering Wish for utility. Otherwise, you are Jund with Paths in leu of Bolts. Let me know what you think
EDIT: Now that I have some more time, some thoughts on the deck. Firstly, I love Junk and I've been set on trying to make Knight of the Reliquary work in Modern. While Knight does shine against the control decks, I don't think he does enough in the Jund matchup. The theory with this deck is to have a very good maindeck against Jund with Glittering Wish giving you a powerful versatile tool. Many of the cards play dual roles in the deck and the ones that don't get boarded out; Thoughtseize and Path to Exile.
On the topic of Glittering Wish...
With Glittering Wish, you should always have Fracturing Gust- it's one of the best targets. I also knew I wanted graveyard hate so Jund Charm and Rakdos Charm both went on the table. For a while I was playing Rakdos Charm for Graveyards and Golgari Charm for the -1/-1 and the regenerate. (Note: Rakdos's life loss ability should almost never be good when your opponent can see it coming.) I realized Jund charm has the best of these abilities and saves valuable space. Regardless, I was splashing red. Is this greedy while still playing colorless lands? Probably. Four other things I knew I wanted were lifegain, land destruction, removal, and something to wish for against Jund and Control. Lifegain being finks just makes sense since it's cheap though I did think about others. The thought process behind not grabbing Huntmaster or Loxodon Hierach was that if you can muster the 4 mana choice, Sorin may be viable. LD was a tricky one. I was pretty sure I wanted Realm Razor as that card is a huge game changer and that's what Glittering Wish wants though I felt like having access to Fulminator Mage would also be good if you need to keep on of the Tron decks off mana early. With spaces so tight, I'm only playing one removal spell- though many times I "wish" I could've gotten Abrupt Decay (usually with 4 mana staring down a Bob). Pulse hits Pod and multiple threats which is why I like it but I could see this changing, especially with access to Jund Charm already for tokens. Lastly, Sorin fills the lategame and hard to remove role. The other choices were Sigarda, whose WW scared me (though she's still defendable- I also didn't like that she could be worse than Goyf), and Wurm Harvest, which was too slow in the Deathrite Shaman mirror. Huntmaster is also good- though worse against wrath effects from control decks (better than Sigarda there). I havent' tested Huntmaster or Ajani.
So there's 300 words on Glittering Wish...
L1 Judge
Gaddock Teeg - against Tron G1, Storm, Scapeshift, etc.
Orzhov Pontiff - might be better than Jund Charm since its a creature and doesn't require your splash color to kill creatures.
Stillmoon Cavalier - Probably too fringe to be worth the slot.
Burning-Tree Shaman - Punishes Twin especially, and will hurt a lot of decks randomly. It's kind of like a Rakdos Charm on legs in the Twin matchup.
Golgari Charm - Quite a versatile card that can help against Infect, Affinity, save you against an impending Wrath against control, etc. It might even be worth having just as a "out" to Blood Moon!
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I was thinking about a way to add Bloodbraid Elf into Junk, since that is the biggest loss that we face by ditching Red. If Jund can stretch for the fourth color, so can we!
This list is rough:
1 Forest
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Godless Shrine
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Path to Exile
2 Thoughtseize
2 Burning-Tree Shaman (?)
1 Damping Matrix
3 Loxodon Smiter
2 Rest In Peace
2 Rule Of Law
3 Stony Silence
2 Torpor Orb
Although at this point, why am I not just copying Jund? It is worth nit-picking over the individual cards that both Red and White bring to the table, since that's where the major distinction is coming from.
If I go Red (Jund splash White) then I get the Lightning Bolts (better reach), Terminates (2-mana Path), and access to Rakdos Charm in my SB (good all-around answer that can count as slots against Twin, Affinity, Storm, etc.) If I stay White then I can play Path maindeck (better against Tron and UW, worse against Jund and other grindy decks), have access to Tidehollow Sculler, Zealous Persecution if I need it, and Loxodon Smiter. To make things worse, both decks can play all of these cards, just with less consistency based on whether White or Red gets the preferential mana treatment.
On mana, if White remains as a major color then I get to keep more Horizon Canopys around, Murmuring Bosk isn't as bad, and I have the option to go up to 25 lands and play either Vault of The Archangel or Gavony Township. If Red is my major color I get to use Raging Ravine if I want to (it is the best man land in Modern IMO.)
It might just be a meta call. If the format becomes more combo-heavy then I want to be on Junk, because I can build the list to have more discard effects and with White as a major color I will be able to cast those backbreaking anti-combo SB cards more often. If the format remains controlled by Jund and other creature-based decks, then I want to be Jund. Junk doesn't Jund's superior card advantage going long, and Jund is more of a dog to combo and Tron than Junk is.
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Another direction that we could take the deck is to re-tool Kibler's GW "little kid" deck to be more Junky. I really like the majority of Kibler's list, and would just run MD Tidehollow Scullers and Deathrite Shamans over Birds of Paradise, with a bit of mana base adjusting to make that work. The fact that he managed to fit a full regimen of Thalias into a deck without hurting himself, AND avoid the "too many durdles" trap is impressive. Still, I want harder removal than just 2/1s and 2/2s to protect me against all of the unfair decks.
~ Brian DeMars
1st Place PTQ
Adelaide, Australia
Creatures (18)
Spells (18)
Lands (24)
Sideboard
Do we splash blue into Junk to be more viable or stay true to Junk/Doran?
This is a completely different archetype.
Also: You guys don't need Bob.
And I kinda agree that this is too far out from what we're playing to compare. The Gifts idea is always something to consider as a SB option. It wouldn't take much to add that Blue splash, but I don't want to lose that many SB slots either.
~ Brian DeMars
That is where I got the decklist from. I guess this deck is too different from the current version of Junk.
The date show 3/11/12.
Some of the bigger lists are skipping Bob either for budget reasons or because there are too many 4+ drop cards that these players don't want to flip. Bob is REALLY powerful (played in Vintage good) but you do have to build around him and limit your deck to 3 or 4 drops max. I'm not going to say you don't need Bob, because I disagree with that notion, but if you don't have Bob there are alternatives that will work.
Phyrexian Arena
Dark Tutelage (?) - Its a "Bob" enchantment. On the one hand, it costs 1 mana more, on the other, since it doesn't have legs it will be harder to kill. I'd rather just play Arena.
Night's Whisper - Your "one shot" Bob activation.
Yeah, I've found that 10 fetches is where I am comfortable with Deathrite. I don't know of a good replacement for him, since his suite of abilities is unique.
You're right... I had Dryad Militant in my early aggressive sketch of this deck. Its a aggressive body that happens to give Storm and Snapcaster Mage decks a lot of trouble!
Something that we're trying in Standard is pairing Thalia with Judge's Familiar. Loam Lion is also an option. And don't forget the Rancors
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Unfortunately, Tidehollow Sculler continues to disappoint in testing. I got some games in against Scapeshift, and while I was slightly favored overall in the match up, I felt like I would have done better in a few situations with a different discard spell than Sculler.
Here's the issue: Sculler has legs. That means that my discard spell dies to creature removal, which EVERY even low tier competitive deck has a bunch of. Specifically, I am trying to Sculler hands that look like this:
What do you take? The card I need to take is Scapeshift. However, all that will accomplish is making sure that the Electrolyze hits my Sculler instead of something else. That matters if the opponent only has one removal spell so that I can clear the way for a Dark Confidant to stay on the field. I can take one of the removal spells, but then the card that kills me is still in that hand. This dilemma has played out over and over again in numerous match ups. I'm not saying goodbye to Sculler completely, but either he needs to be paired up with more discard spells (11+ like in some of my earlier lists) or he needs to be trimmed for more "guaranteed" discard.
On the other hand, when I want to take removal out of hands anyway (against fair decks) Sculler has been sweet. At that point, however, I am still in a bind with combat decisions, since I can't just send Sculler to battle without risking giving my opponent their card back...
- 1 Sculler
+ 1 Thoughtseize
Sculler might be better in an adaptation of the GW Kibler deck. Since there are SO many must-kill creatures that the GW deck plays, it will be hard for an opponent to justify taking out a 2/2 when there are tons of 4/4s to worry about as well.
~ Brian DeMars
"You wanted to play this card on your next turn? Gotta kill this first" It can potentially ruin their tempo. I've podded my shamans into Scullers to grab my friend's Regal Force putting him into top deck mode, that worked out long enough for me to find a sweeper for his army of elves.
But you're right. For the most part Sculler kinda just stands around in the back since opponents are normally very willing to trade for what you take away. Would be nice to have a way to abuse him.
You don't really have to build around Bob all that much. People have run Bob+Tombstalker in Legacy tournaments. If you've got 8+ four mana cards, then just run some Kitchen Finks, but I'm not sure why you'd want that many 4cc's anyway.
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
Those decks are also playing Sensei's Divining Top so they never flip an 8 mana spell. Even then it's pretty rare to find Confidant and Tombstalker in the same deck.
8x Swamps
2x Plains
1x Forest
3x Overgrown Tomb
2x Vault of the Archangel
1x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
Creatures (19):
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Dark Confidant
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Eternal Witness
2x Stonecloaker
2x Thrun, The Last Troll
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Path to Exile
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Dismember
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Damnation
Artifacts (2):
2x Birthing Pod
2x Damnation
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Sudden Death
2x Oblivion Stone
2x Loxodon Smiter
-1 Damnation
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
+2 Zealous Persecution
I've been thinking of what I'd put in for Affinity matches. I've been considering Creeping Corrosion but I think that Infest could fit the bill. It comes down a turn earlier too. I think that matters against Affinity.
Thinking about my 3rd and 4th drop slots. Considering Mirri the Cursed. I've found Thrun to be more of a defensive card than an offensive one. Then there's Restoration Angel. I might get two. She feels very useful to me.
My list seems to really wait on a Vault of the Archangel to plop down so I can really kick things into gear. I might consider getting a Gavony Township sooner so that I can try that approach of making guys bigger.
In Modern, nearly every deck is full of creatures. The top deck in the format plays plenty of creatures and burn spells to back them up. In this format we need to keep tabs on our resources (like life) more closely, because these games are going to go longer and we will get more flips. Confidant is a great card and I will never cut it, but I can't just jam 5 or 6-drops and feel comfortable with that in most games.
There's not much that we want at 4+ mana anyway. At 4 mana I could see Elspeth, Knight Errant, Garruk Relentless, Sorin, or splash for Bloodbraid Elf. At 5 we're looking at Baneslayer Angel or Sigarda, maybe Batterskull. There's lots of awesome creatures at 6 like Wurmcoil Engine, but at that point we'll need some acceleration or a really good reason not to play Tron...
~ Brian DeMars
~ Brian DeMars
Elspeth looks like a good way to go. I like the idea. My set up is currently lacking reach and I find myself waiting on stonecloaker because he's got evasion but he's also first to get cut off my list. There's something wrong there.
Is mystic enforcer playable? I think he could work.
I might even consider Mirri the Cursed or Glissa the Traitor. Gotta get some power creep going.
/phone
The big problem with Mystic Enforcer is the fact that Deathrite Shaman has become so present in Modern lately. It's hard to get threshold when Deathrite Shaman is picking off your graveyard.
Also for what its worth, I really love Elspeth.
The trick with Liliana is to play cards that you don't mind pitching with her +1, or just play enough cheap cards that you'll be empty or just pitching excess lands anyway. Lingering Souls is a prime candidate for a +1 discard.
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I was thinking of using Auriok Champion as a card that could set us apart from Jund while also improving that matchup. Jund only has as many outs to this card as it has Lilianas, and of course I will have more than one creature on the board most of the time. The card bricks every Jund creature except Goyf. IDK, but I think its worth some test games to see how things go.
The "Soul Sister" ability is very useful against Twin and Pod decks as a bonus, and Twin only has a few bounce spells to deal with that plus any other hate.
Mirran Crusader is also worth considering, IF Lightning Bolt doesn't get played. Since that card is an auto four-of in Jund Crusader seems much less appealing. Did you know that the only other creature with Protection from Green in the entire format is a BB 1/1 from Planar Chaos? Weird!
With Auriok Champion in my head, I was seeing if there was some way to make her more impressive. She's only a 1/1, so she's mainly a wall and a persistent life gain spell. That may be enough on its own, but I think the Steelshaper's Gift & Swords plan is worth another look with Champion in the picture.
Untested:
2 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Vault of The Archangel
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Woodland Cemetery
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tidehollow Sculler
Other
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
1 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Auriok Champion
1 Damping Martix
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Rule of Law
3 Stony Silence
2 Torpor Orb
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Testing against Tron continues to be troublesome. Locally I will HAVE to be able to beat that deck, since 3 people at my store are building the deck. I'll probably just end up playing Storm at any local Modern events, and then this or Jund at the PTQs, but I still want to have at least a fighting chance of beating this deck.
I'm going to try instant-speed sacrifice effects next. Geth's Verdict and Tribute to Hunger can both keep an Emrakul from hitting me and force my opponent to use Eye of Ugin to get it back. It buys me a turn. What if I could one-shot the opponent while also keeping Emrakul from hitting me? Are you ready for some super secret tech I found while searching Gatherer...?
Hit
Yeah, Hit, half of Hit // Run. I would have to splash Red, but if I cast this against Emrakul, THEY take 15. Assuming I attacked with anything during the game, this should be instant death. This also kills Wurmcoils and deals merely six damage for 1RB. I could even use the Run half of this card for a pump effect, but I doubt that will come up too often. Is it good? It depends on whether my opponent sees it coming (nope) because all they have to do to stop it is play another Artifact. I'll try this in games with Jund and see a) if it works at all, b) if its worth splashing for in Junk. Tribute To Hunger is my second option, and either card has the side bonus of being a card that I can bring in against Gifts decks.
~ Brian DeMars