Mastodon, I'm going to go ahead and agree with you on being foolish and stubborn about this. You may not Like Delver of Secrets, but you seem to be the only one on this thread who actually thinks the card is bad. The "worst card in the deck" is in actuality the reason the deck is tier one successful. Maybe you missed it, but delver actually does win games. Lots of them.
Having played with Guide, Nacatl, Goose, Lynx, Figure, And Delver, I will agree they are all strong creatures. Guide is probably my favorite, as it certainly is fast and consistent. Nacatl is awesome when you play Naya, Lynx is great when you fetch, Figure/student are very pricey but strong lategame, and Mongoose is slow but resilient. But delver FLIES. They are all conditional on some level. At their best though, Delver is the most powerful start, hands down. If goose was a 3/3 shroud on turn 2 just as often, it might be close. If we could play Nacatl in WUR, it might be close. If goblin guide didnt lose card advantage, it would be no contest. But that's not the case.
You know which card has won me the most games in legacy RUG, especially against aggro? I'll give you one guess.
You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. Some people just don't like certain cards or mechanics. But your going to have a hard time time convincing this thread that our best card is actually our worst. And it won't stop us from continuing to win with Insectile Abberations.
This is a great post - I would reply myself to the Delver debate but I don't think there's anything I could add.
Delver is the whole reason I play this deck... if this deck had GG instead (for arguments sake - I don't want to get into the "why" aspect) I would probably just play RUG Delver instead. Delver wins - some of my friends think it's too good because once he transforms your opponent is put on a very quick clock. If they banned Delver, you'd hear cheers from every other player who DOESNT play with Delver, just to see it gone. I love Delver and would be one of the last cards in the entire deck I would consider replacing (next to Lightning Bolt).
I'm having nothing but great success with this deck, but my sideboard is a complete mess. I really have no idea what direction I want to go - though Im not sold on the gifts package at all. I admit, my exposure to it is rather limited but I just hated having Iona in my opening hand. Horrible...
well, i play a sb with a few generalistic answers to problem decks, and try to focus on not leaving blind spots. Others prefer to aim specifically for the top decks, and ditch the rest.
While there is no rule about this, i think that leaving autolosses in a big torunament just isnt smart.
Aside from that, exactly in which MUs are you finding it harder to win? Perhaps we can help you starting from there.
well, i play a sb with a few generalistic answers to problem decks, and try to focus on not leaving blind spots. Others prefer to aim specifically for the top decks, and ditch the rest.
While there is no rule about this, i think that leaving autolosses in a big torunament just isnt smart. Aside from that, exactly in which MUs are you finding it harder to win? Perhaps we can help you starting from there.
Not many, honestly.... Pod is probably my worst matchup overall - or maybe Im just not used to playing it - as they seem to always have an answer (plus unlimited anything is quite bad).
I have beaten the Mirror, RUG, Affinity pretty handily, maybe struggle a bit with Tron? Sowing Salts absolutely wrecks them but it's useless against anything else and not worth the SB slot IMO. I'm putting that deck together myself now actually - just missing a handful of cards.
Most of the tier 1.5 and 2 decks aren't too bad either, though I've played a few Merfolk decks and they can sometimes be a bit troublesome... but of course like anything a lot depends on luck and how the games play out.
Ive been packing Volcanic Fallout for those and also the Mirror matchup to get rid of opposing Geists. Seems to work pretty well, but the rest of the slots... ehhh....
You're doing it again, bro --- those cards are banned or not legal. It's irrelevant if they're better or not, because no one gets to play with them. Yes, once you've played with brainstorm, preordain, or ponder, you realize that serum visions isn't nearly as good, but we can't do anything about it. They banned those cards, so it's all we've got.
I pointed that out in my post. I'm aware that comparing them is irrelevant, but when you're used to playing with those cards outside modern, being forced to play serum visions is still disappointing.
Anyway, I've taken enough bashing from the delver fan-boys in this thread despite trying to make a fair argument, so I'm out, and again, I apologize if I rustled anyone's jimmies.
I pointed that out in my post. I'm aware that comparing them is irrelevant, but when you're used to playing with those cards outside modern, being forced to play serum visions is still disappointing.
Anyway, I've taken enough bashing from the delver fan-boys in this thread despite trying to make a fair argument, so I'm out, and again, I apologize if I rustled anyone's jimmies.
As a parting shot, I will still dagger you with a quote from Todd Anderson's most recent article about card evaluation:
Quote from Todd Anderson »
If you don't look at cards in context, then you shouldn't bother looking at them at all. Context is all that Magic is and all it should be. Certain cards gain or lose value based on so many different factors that ignoring context is just asinine.
It's all about context. Besides, delver is probably the worst card to ever bash in this list. It's a card that has helped me crush in standard, legacy, modern, and even pauper. Playing with delver for any length of time will help you realize that it's not a candidate to bash.
As far as the SB goes, I don't know why you wouldn't play gifts. I don't think there is a better option out there. Sure, you might draw your gifts target, but that's a very low potential cost for an extremely strong strategy.
What about Gitaxian Probe? I'm collecting the cards for WUR Delver after playing a lot of Delver in standard and I think it's weird that this card isn't on anyones lists.
Gitaxian Probe pros:
Higher spellcount for Delver.
Know your opponents hand.
Great with Snapcaster Mage.
Cons:
May cost life and you already deal damage to yourself with your manabase.
So unless your meta is mostly aggro I think Gitaxian Probe should have at least 2-3 slots in your maindeck!
Your cons should also include "it doesn't do what this deck wants"
It's a fine card in Standard because of Pike and Talrand right now but honestly, in Modern UWR Delver it's not exactly a staple like it is in standard. Maybe in a more control build of UWR Delver but even then I still doubt it. A lot of builds nowadays probably dont run it since they want to end the game as soon as possible with Lynx, Bolts/Burn, Scepter, and of course Delver. Probe does not bring you closer to this objective. You don't need your graveyard filled for pike and it doesn't get you drakes.
You are welcome to post it here, but you should articulate exactly why you think deliver is unnecessary in your build. If your list is more than just a few delvers off from the typical list here, you might want to start a new thread.
Delver is hard to replace, but it's worth discussing variations, even if they are unpopular.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
The thing is, it's free. Playing some Probes will increase the chance for your Delver to flip while still drawing you the same amount of lands for Steppe Lynx. It virtually reduces your deck size so you can draw the good cards more often. The looking at opponents hand is important not that much to control them but to play around their removal. It is also very importent to know if you can tap out against Twin for example. I haven't played with the deck a lot but to me it seems like a good card unless the two life is important.
It's a low impact low cost card, with such a painful manabase I can see why you don't play four but it should at least be seen as a possible card in my oppionon.
That's not how it works. It doesn't make your deck "56 cards," because you have to play it over something else (probably something better).
Why is everyone running Serum Visions over Sleight of Hand? Yes, Serum digs three cards while Sleight only digs two, but you don't get any choice of what you draw initially with Serum while you do with Sleight, which imo is why Ponder and Preordain are so good in the first place.
Why is everyone running Serum Visions over Sleight of Hand? Yes, Serum digs three cards while Sleight only digs two, but you don't get any choice of what you draw initially with Serum while you do with Sleight, which imo is why Ponder and Preordain are so good in the first place.
Delver, absolutely. Also, Steppe Lynx. I also think Serum Visions is a better early game play for this deck anyway. You often want to see ahead a turn or 2 if possible. Serum Visions is better when you want to have access to multiple options. Sleight of Hand is only great when you want to find 1 specific card.
Some people run 1-2 Sleight of Hands as well as the set of Visions, but usually only in the RUG decks. Our list is pretty snug as it is.
love this deck but not entirely sold on the gifts package what match-ups would you want to bring that in against?
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Artificer andy, you raise a point that burns the back of most of all our throats. Serum visions really doesnt flip delver for me unless its on top of my deck personally. But it is a necessaryevil as it is the only cheap library manipulation we have for the purpose of forcing delver to flip (...but mine dont even do that)
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
love this deck but not entirely sold on the gifts package what match-ups would you want to bring that in against?
Many of us would probably agree with you Mfama, and having not fully tested out the Gifts package in competitive play, I can't really help you too much on it's true strengths and weaknesses. Theoretically though, the Reanimate targets go something like this:
Iona: Obviously the best target against any mono-colored deck, but she also colds most Aggro decks if you shut of their White Removal. Naming Red against storm is reasonable too, but they might have answers in blue, which equals a blowout for you. Not as popular lately.
Elesh: Shuts down almost any weenie deck, stops most POD combos, and is still very effective even if your opponent does get rid of her. Often you can reanimate Elesh and swing for the win if there was a previous board stall. She is also great against token strategies and the Empty the Warrens half of storm.
Sphinx: Great against Jund and RUG Delver. Also great against most Red-based Aggro decks in general.
Right now, I'm testing a regular sideboard. If and when I go back to the Gifts package, I'll write up a better description of it's strengths and weaknesses in the primer.
As for Gitaxian Probe, I can see throwing in 1-2 as your extra cantrips, but only if you don't expect to be facing much Aggro. It's a great effect against Combo/Control and even Midrange, but if you aren't casting it for free, it's not so good. I'd personally rather have something more impactful in my hand especially since we really don't have much countermagic Game 1. And our list is very tight. Still, in an open meta early in the season, knowing what your opponent is holding can be very much worth the 2 life or blue mana.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Meh, im not buying this gitaxian probe thingy, its not even an instant. I prefer twisted image anyday, even if its not free, at leastit protects us, and cantrips.
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This is a great post - I would reply myself to the Delver debate but I don't think there's anything I could add.
Delver is the whole reason I play this deck... if this deck had GG instead (for arguments sake - I don't want to get into the "why" aspect) I would probably just play RUG Delver instead. Delver wins - some of my friends think it's too good because once he transforms your opponent is put on a very quick clock. If they banned Delver, you'd hear cheers from every other player who DOESNT play with Delver, just to see it gone. I love Delver and would be one of the last cards in the entire deck I would consider replacing (next to Lightning Bolt).
I'm having nothing but great success with this deck, but my sideboard is a complete mess. I really have no idea what direction I want to go - though Im not sold on the gifts package at all. I admit, my exposure to it is rather limited but I just hated having Iona in my opening hand. Horrible...
Suggestions?
While there is no rule about this, i think that leaving autolosses in a big torunament just isnt smart.
Aside from that, exactly in which MUs are you finding it harder to win? Perhaps we can help you starting from there.
Not many, honestly.... Pod is probably my worst matchup overall - or maybe Im just not used to playing it - as they seem to always have an answer (plus unlimited anything is quite bad).
I have beaten the Mirror, RUG, Affinity pretty handily, maybe struggle a bit with Tron? Sowing Salts absolutely wrecks them but it's useless against anything else and not worth the SB slot IMO. I'm putting that deck together myself now actually - just missing a handful of cards.
Most of the tier 1.5 and 2 decks aren't too bad either, though I've played a few Merfolk decks and they can sometimes be a bit troublesome... but of course like anything a lot depends on luck and how the games play out.
Ive been packing Volcanic Fallout for those and also the Mirror matchup to get rid of opposing Geists. Seems to work pretty well, but the rest of the slots... ehhh....
I pointed that out in my post. I'm aware that comparing them is irrelevant, but when you're used to playing with those cards outside modern, being forced to play serum visions is still disappointing.
Anyway, I've taken enough bashing from the delver fan-boys in this thread despite trying to make a fair argument, so I'm out, and again, I apologize if I rustled anyone's jimmies.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
As a parting shot, I will still dagger you with a quote from Todd Anderson's most recent article about card evaluation:
It's all about context. Besides, delver is probably the worst card to ever bash in this list. It's a card that has helped me crush in standard, legacy, modern, and even pauper. Playing with delver for any length of time will help you realize that it's not a candidate to bash.
As far as the SB goes, I don't know why you wouldn't play gifts. I don't think there is a better option out there. Sure, you might draw your gifts target, but that's a very low potential cost for an extremely strong strategy.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Your cons should also include "it doesn't do what this deck wants"
It's a fine card in Standard because of Pike and Talrand right now but honestly, in Modern UWR Delver it's not exactly a staple like it is in standard. Maybe in a more control build of UWR Delver but even then I still doubt it. A lot of builds nowadays probably dont run it since they want to end the game as soon as possible with Lynx, Bolts/Burn, Scepter, and of course Delver. Probe does not bring you closer to this objective. You don't need your graveyard filled for pike and it doesn't get you drakes.
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EDH
G Isao
YUMA, AZ
Delver is hard to replace, but it's worth discussing variations, even if they are unpopular.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
That's not how it works. It doesn't make your deck "56 cards," because you have to play it over something else (probably something better).
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Because scry lets you set up delver triggers...
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Same reason you play magma jet over better burn options.
Some people run 1-2 Sleight of Hands as well as the set of Visions, but usually only in the RUG decks. Our list is pretty snug as it is.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
NYSPORTSMAGIC
D'oh. Makes sense.
Yea, but its free. So you could play it and delver turn one. Although I think in this deck it would be too hard to cut 4 cards from the list
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Many of us would probably agree with you Mfama, and having not fully tested out the Gifts package in competitive play, I can't really help you too much on it's true strengths and weaknesses. Theoretically though, the Reanimate targets go something like this:
Iona: Obviously the best target against any mono-colored deck, but she also colds most Aggro decks if you shut of their White Removal. Naming Red against storm is reasonable too, but they might have answers in blue, which equals a blowout for you. Not as popular lately.
Elesh: Shuts down almost any weenie deck, stops most POD combos, and is still very effective even if your opponent does get rid of her. Often you can reanimate Elesh and swing for the win if there was a previous board stall. She is also great against token strategies and the Empty the Warrens half of storm.
Sphinx: Great against Jund and RUG Delver. Also great against most Red-based Aggro decks in general.
Right now, I'm testing a regular sideboard. If and when I go back to the Gifts package, I'll write up a better description of it's strengths and weaknesses in the primer.
As for Gitaxian Probe, I can see throwing in 1-2 as your extra cantrips, but only if you don't expect to be facing much Aggro. It's a great effect against Combo/Control and even Midrange, but if you aren't casting it for free, it's not so good. I'd personally rather have something more impactful in my hand especially since we really don't have much countermagic Game 1. And our list is very tight. Still, in an open meta early in the season, knowing what your opponent is holding can be very much worth the 2 life or blue mana.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB