I always liked Thirst for Knowledge in my faerie build. Here you can hold back mana for Mindcensor, Stonecloaker or Restoration Angel if that's your thing. End of turn draw 3 and ditch the vial you drew on turn 4.
As for Thalia, I only run 2x main deck and 1 in the board. It works fine for me.
GW D&T makes more sense to me, the green splash brings agressive hatebear creatures etc. Comparatively a blue splash brings attributes of the very popular delver deck. Delver is not D&T, so while the instants that make delver are strong, they have pretty bad synergy with D&T by forcing the D&T player to choose between a weakened Tax plan and a weak Delver plan.
I been doing the green splash with canopy's only for pridemage and he's been good but there been games where I lost and I needed him and couldnt because I cracke my canopy earlier.
But I think that right now blue has much better hate bears than green:
Green: Pridemage, Not bad at all
Teeg: Pretty irrelevant in the current meta
Blue:
Clique: 3/1 flyer, flash She the bomb
Kira: Maybe better in the SB againts heavy removal decks, she flies too
Meddling mage: Definitely a few of these in the SB, maybe MB
Phantasmal Image: Worst case copy ur own wisp/splicer best case copy their 9/9 trample, flying monkey warrior.
Thats just from the top of my head. As a side note a recntly tested a black splash for Bob and zealosu persecution and it has been OK results, not good enough.
I would really like to find more board cards against Jund. It's one of the most popular decks out there, and I often find myself not boarding at all. I'm not sure how effective Ghostly Prisons are against it. Though since it's been highly difficult on Cockatrice to find tier 1 decks, my testing is very limited.
It also seems Storm is almost a guaranteed game 1 loss.
In addition, any type of hyper aggro seems to generate automatic losses in the mainboard (I found stuff like Merfolk and Treefolk to be really difficult), and even after board, it's still not easy.
I'd like to tune the mainboard more towards beating this stuff. Jotun Grunts seem to be lackluster against a lot of stuff, but I think he stays in just to deal with Tarmogoyf. Quadruple Mindcensor seems to be a bit too much, as he often just comes in as a flash 2/1 flying beatstick, which seems to be relevant since most of my games end up as ground stalemates due to Blade Splicer and Flickerwisps + Mindcensors getting in there. Kitchen Finks doesn't seem to actually do anything, and I'm very close to dropping them altogether, but I'd like more opinions on this. The lifegain is sometimes nice when I have to burn through life with Horizon Canopy, but I can't remember many times when the 2-4 life actually saved me, though Finks eats Path to Exiles like no other.
I am also debating maybe 1-2 of Swords of X and Y. I read about the tempo losses in the earlier pages, but I find myself not even dropping Mask of Memory early on anyway since I'd rather have a 2cmc drop, and 3cmc drops are saved for surprise vials. Maybe I'm doing this wrong though.
Sideboard really needs work. I want stuff against aggro and Jund. But Jund just seems very solid and I'm just not sure what to do. Gaddock Teeg hasn't actually done anything in the matches I've played. Should I keep the guy in there? Though I have only played against one control deck...
I've also considered a switch over to blue, but I don't have enough experience to know what is better against the current meta.
I have one almost heretical question: Would this deck work without Leonin Arbiter? Is it really crucial card of DnT? It's really nice to transform our Paths into Swords and GQ into Wastelands. But this is not happening very often. It hoses your manascrewed opponent, helps against Pod and Tron, slows down(??) opponents. What more? It prevents us from using fetch lands to build more stable bi or tri color lists and using cards like Step Lynx or Knight of Reliquary.
I will say, Yes. Arbiter is clutch. Our strategy is basically to not do what others are doing and turned into an advantage. Let me explain:
1. 0 Life loss due to fetches> Make fetching harder via arbiter or censor.
2. Very few non-creature spells> Thalia disruption
3. Mostly all plains, give us resilience against Tec, blood moon, fulminator and other random land destruction> We can afford the 4GQ/4 Tec edge to disrupt
sensitive mana foundations.
Like somobody already mention Lynx and Knight do everthing we stand for against, searching the deck.
I have to say I never considered Phantasmal Images for the UW version - I may give it a shot.
I think Kira is better suited in the SB as well - what do people think about running 2 Mangara w/ Minamo + maybe 2 stonecloakers/flickerwisps?
I have also thought about running Piracy Charm instead of Vapor Snag - what do you folks think of that?
I am determined to make the U/W version work. I realize it's a bit taxing on us as well with Thalia out and a bunch of disruption spells (and not a lot of card draw, which is a bit of a concern that I'm trying to remedy with Sword/Mask), but I think ultimately it's the strongest version of this deck.
I think turning at most your 2cc spells into 3cc is not that big a deal when you are Vialing in all of your threats.
I've been fiddling around with a sideboard but I don't have access to my list at this moment. I will post a more up-to-date U/W list for your critiquing pleasure.
I have one almost heretical question: Would this deck work without Leonin Arbiter? Is it really crucial card of DnT? It's really nice to transform our Paths into Swords and GQ into Wastelands. But this is not happening very often. It hoses your manascrewed opponent, helps against Pod and Tron, slows down(??) opponents. What more? It prevents us from using fetch lands to build more stable bi or tri color lists and using cards like Step Lynx or Knight of Reliquary.
Part of why this is inherently different from Maverick (which is an aggro deck) is because of card choices like Arbiter (which make this more of a control deck). What this deck does is nickle and dime the **** out of your opponent to make them stumble and stutter as you drop creatures that are full of value, which is why we play so many creatures with come into play abilities. Almost every one of our creatues screw with our opponent or offer some sort of mini-ability.
I would say that the modern version has to play a bit more aggro than the legacy version, but I believe this version stopped trying to be the legacy deck almost a year ago. It had to become its own beast. Arbiter was a choice that was almost left out because SFM was originally an option; the second she got banned, it opened the window for him and we never looked back. The meta is so dependent on fetching and searching and cantripping and this deck doesn't need to do any of it, making Arbiter a powerhouse in our deck more than setting up stip mines and path to exile combos. This is the reason why he's stayed in a lot of lists where Mangara didn't; because he's more than cutesy set ups for the few cards in your deck that interact with him.
For instance, if that Eggs deck that rolled the ProTour had been matched against a solid DnT list, it would have gotten raped. Everything our deck does shuts that deck down. I've had plenty of games against decks like Eggs where I had to ask them what they were playing after the match because Arbiter and Thalia like effects prevented them from really doing anything. That's what this deck does.
I understand why people come in and think the cards are terrible because a lot of them are terrible on an individual basis, but they all have a certain sense of synergy that makes them incredibly strong together. Hacking and slashing to make this deck an aggro deck is a bad idea because there are so many decks that play that game better. Maverick doesn't have the necessary tools to be strong in the ways that it is in Legacy. Knight of the Reliquary isn't quite as good without bomb lands like Maze of Ith and Gaea's Cradle. In this format, she's pretty much just a dumb beater and there are plenty of better ones.
I was thinking more on this WU version and didn't really have the capability to post a huge amount earlier due to being restricted by my phone. Here are my thoughts on it:
It could work if it was ran more like a UW Restoration control type of deck. Keep Leonin Arbiter, as that is the main card that turns Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter from playable to amazing. The rest could be solid flashy stuff like Restoration Angel, Stonecloaker, Aven Mindcensor and Snapcaster Mage. You could probably cut Aether Vial with so much flash effects, or keep them and run Thirst for Knowledge for extra draw. I probably wouldn't load up on Kira or Geist without Aether Vial. Thalia isn't exactly necessary, but you probably want something to go in if you are facing down Storm (something like Leyline of Sanctity would work fine).
I would like to see someone throw a list like this together and give this a go. It could work.
Part of why this is inherently different from Maverick (which is an aggro deck) is because of card choices like Arbiter (which make this more of a control deck). What this deck does is nickle and dime the **** out of your opponent to make them stumble and stutter as you drop creatures that are full of value, which is why we play so many creatures with come into play abilities. Almost every one of our creatues screw with our opponent or offer some sort of mini-ability.
I would say that the modern version has to play a bit more aggro than the legacy version, but I believe this version stopped trying to be the legacy deck almost a year ago. It had to become its own beast. Arbiter was a choice that was almost left out because SFM was originally an option; the second she got banned, it opened the window for him and we never looked back. The meta is so dependent on fetching and searching and cantripping and this deck doesn't need to do any of it, making Arbiter a powerhouse in our deck more than setting up stip mines and path to exile combos. This is the reason why he's stayed in a lot of lists where Mangara didn't; because he's more than cutesy set ups for the few cards in your deck that interact with him.
For instance, if that Eggs deck that rolled the ProTour had been matched against a solid DnT list, it would have gotten raped. Everything our deck does shuts that deck down. I've had plenty of games against decks like Eggs where I had to ask them what they were playing after the match because Arbiter and Thalia like effects prevented them from really doing anything. That's what this deck does.
I understand why people come in and think the cards are terrible because a lot of them are terrible on an individual basis, but they all have a certain sense of synergy that makes them incredibly strong together. Hacking and slashing to make this deck an aggro deck is a bad idea because there are so many decks that play that game better. Maverick doesn't have the necessary tools to be strong in the ways that it is in Legacy. Knight of the Reliquary isn't quite as good without bomb lands like Maze of Ith and Gaea's Cradle. In this format, she's pretty much just a dumb beater and there are plenty of better ones.
Couldn't have said it better myself and I agree 100% on this. I don't think Maverick is our "bigger, more successful" brother. I think D&T is strictly better positioned in the Modern meta and has been for some time.
I would like to see someone throw a list like this together and give this a go. It could work.
It can work, but it wouldn't be good.
Vial basically doubles your mana, and causes your opponent to worry, even when you're tapped out.
I feel like a lot of people are trying to jam blue into this deck making it an awful mishmash of D&T and UW Resto that isn't going to accomplish what either one can as effectively.
I may have missed this one earlier in the primer but what do people think of Phyrexian metamorph as an answer to Geist of Saint Traft, eldrazi, etc. At worst it's another vial/sword/kitchen finks. I was testing against w/u tron and I don't really like being annihilated for a loss.
I feel like a lot of people are trying to jam blue into this deck making it an awful mishmash of D&T and UW Resto that isn't going to accomplish what either one can as effectively.
this.
I think blue could be very fun, and might try it myself some day, but I think its just weaker than a W or W/g Version.
I may have missed this one earlier in the primer but what do people think of Phyrexian metamorph as an answer to Geist of Saint Traft, eldrazi, etc. At worst it's another vial/sword/kitchen finks. I was testing against w/u tron and I don't really like being annihilated for a loss.
Once an emrakul hits the table youre pretty much done. But a geist can be easily handled by vialing in a creature or flashing in a mindcensor in response to them declaring attackers. You might have to eat 4 if you dont have something else to deal with the angel but they probably wouldnt have attacked if you had something back because geist is so fragile.
I find myself boarding out multiple Mindcensors a lot. Is it even worth maindecking a set? I don't believe I've even used its ability once in like the last 5 matches I've been in. It's only a 2/1 flying beatstick now...
Still, I'm having trouble finding alternatives. I'm debating Stonecloaker, but that seems to result in tempo loss.
Also, I'd like to know how those tests with Loxodon Smiter are going. I think I'm going to be putting in 3 and trying it out. Seems like a relevant ability, especially with 30% of the competitive meta being Jund.
I feel like a lot of people are trying to jam blue into this deck making it an awful mishmash of D&T and UW Resto that isn't going to accomplish what either one can as effectively.
You never know unless you try. Just straight out saying "Don't play that. It's bad." before even attempting to play it is overly pessimistic. Sometimes it's the strategy that seems "meh" that turns out to be good in the right meta. I would be willing to give it a go sometime. It's not that I am doing terrible with my WG build (actually quite the opposite). UW Restoration + Leonin Arbiter isn't that far of a stretch. It isn't exactly a mash of two decks, but more of taking UW Resto and adding Arbiter. It already runs Path, Finks, and with Arbiter, swapping out Tectonic Edge for Ghost Quarter isn't a huge change either. Maybe instead of Clique (or Geist, heaven forbid anyone suggest taking Geist out) run Aven Mindcensor and/or Stonecloaker.
You wouldn't need fetches. Mana base is pretty simple with only 2 colors. Path and GQ become awesome. I could see it being good enough to play without outright saying it's bad until I've had a few matches with it.
I'm about to test a WG hate-bear build before the Chicago GP. It doesn't have Flickerwisp or a few other staples, but I'm liking it (in theory) after a reconfiguration. It only runs green for Loxodon Smiter and a pair of Stirring Wildwood, but I can include Pridemage and other options in the board if so desired. Here's what I'm thinking at the moment:
The sideboard is very tentative, and the Finks might be overkill if the meta won't have tons of aggro right now (other than Affinity and Burn, which are partially addressed with Pridemage, Stony Silence, Believer, and Firewalker). If there's room, I might run two Steelshaper's Gift with three different swords (Light and Shadow would be nice), although there's always the possibility that opponents bring in Ancient Grudge anyway for Vial or because they plan to see swords. I do like Body and Mind for its potential against Scapeshift / Valakut decks, and it has a few other corner uses too. However, milling a deck that has Ancient Grudge really sucks.
I'm going to give Familiar a shot, at least for now, due to the added disruption and boost from Honor of the Pure. I like Honor in this build because I have nine fliers and because it pumps Smiter too. Between him, Grunt, and Avenger, that's eight creatures out of burn range when Honor is out.
I'm about to test a WG hate-bear build before the Chicago GP. It doesn't have Flickerwisp or a few other staples, but I'm liking it (in theory) after a reconfiguration. It only runs green for Loxodon Smiter and a pair of Stirring Wildwood, but I can include Pridemage and other options in the board if so desired. Here's what I'm thinking at the moment:
The sideboard is very tentative, and the Finks might be overkill if the meta won't have tons of aggro right now (other than Affinity and Burn, which are partially addressed with Pridemage, Stony Silence, Believer, and Firewalker). If there's room, I might run two Steelshaper's Gift with three different swords (Light and Shadow would be nice), although there's always the possibility that opponents bring in Ancient Grudge anyway for Vial or because they plan to see swords. I do like Body and Mind for its potential against Scapeshift / Valakut decks, and it has a few other corner uses too. However, milling a deck that has Ancient Grudge really sucks.
I'm going to give Familiar a shot, at least for now, due to the added disruption and boost from Honor of the Pure. I like Honor in this build because I have nine fliers and because it pumps Smiter too. Between him, Grunt, and Avenger, that's eight creatures out of burn range when Honor is out.
Liking the list. I'd cut a Mindcensor for a Serra Avenger right off the bat, though. Your sideboard looks really fresh, so that will work itself out on its own through testing - No need to comment on it.
Not a huge fan of Jotun Grunt main, but depending on the meta you're expecting (Storm/Jund) he can be played out earlier than turn 4.
You lack the punching power of Silverblade and Elspeth, but again the meta you are expecting may not require it - You do have HtP which turns your bears into angry bears that eat most things.
My main issue with Ethersworn main is it gives other decks an excuse to side in artifact hate. It's not worth them siding Grudge in or anything if you only have vial, but if they see Ethersworn they definitely will and it can definitely throw a wrench into your plans.
I can vouch for Canonist, as Aidan did. I've been running 3 Thalia, 2 Canonist in my main for some time now (mono-W) and love getting them both out. It's funny that most people will assume Canonist is the main hate bear in your deck if they see her game 1. She messes up your opponents tempo almost as much as Thalia, and completely hoses a few strategies in Tier 1 & 2 decks.
Meddling Mage seems very appealing in UW. The card advantage is just great if they can't remove her since they'll be durdling around with dead cards in hand when she's at her best.
I'm not sure that UW needs or has a better option than Mask of Memory for card draw. It's really quite good.
Mark, have you considered Spellstutter Sprite in your list running Mutavaults?
a) Thanks. I am won't drop thalia to less than 4 in mono w,where I just can't quite squeeze the canonists in to make 9 2cc hate bears md [arbiter/thalia/canonist]. I may do so in UW if I run cannonists main deck, which I may.
I do not want to play too many spells though. I do not want a mish mash of restoration UW and d and t. I want to try and play D and T.
b) yes, I have- its a good idea. Sprite takes the deck heavily towards fae, though. I am not sure if I will just get a sub std fae/d and t hyrbid or not. Its certainly worth considering. For now I am going to try and make it more traditional control d and t (not counters) with U for clique/image/geist. If it evolves that way towards fae then all well and good, but I am not sure that mono u fae with shackles would not be better at doing that job. But we will see. Some testing is in order.
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I been doing the green splash with canopy's only for pridemage and he's been good but there been games where I lost and I needed him and couldnt because I cracke my canopy earlier.
But I think that right now blue has much better hate bears than green:
Green: Pridemage, Not bad at all
Teeg: Pretty irrelevant in the current meta
Blue:
Clique: 3/1 flyer, flash She the bomb
Kira: Maybe better in the SB againts heavy removal decks, she flies too
Meddling mage: Definitely a few of these in the SB, maybe MB
Phantasmal Image: Worst case copy ur own wisp/splicer best case copy their 9/9 trample, flying monkey warrior.
Thats just from the top of my head. As a side note a recntly tested a black splash for Bob and zealosu persecution and it has been OK results, not good enough.
Teeg is not really totally irrelevant in the current meta- he stops scapeshift, warrens and boarded wraths of any description from any USA or bant aggro/control deck. Ok gifts has gone a fair bit down the pecking order, but I do see use for teeg, even if its not stellar. I think the main reason to splash green is pridemage and canopy, which becomes more important if u run grunts as it feeds the grunt. I agree with your sentiment that blue is potentially better.
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I'm about to test a WG hate-bear build before the Chicago GP. It doesn't have Flickerwisp or a few other staples, but I'm liking it (in theory) after a reconfiguration. It only runs green for Loxodon Smiter and a pair of Stirring Wildwood, but I can include Pridemage and other options in the board if so desired. Here's what I'm thinking at the moment:
The sideboard is very tentative, and the Finks might be overkill if the meta won't have tons of aggro right now (other than Affinity and Burn, which are partially addressed with Pridemage, Stony Silence, Believer, and Firewalker). If there's room, I might run two Steelshaper's Gift with three different swords (Light and Shadow would be nice), although there's always the possibility that opponents bring in Ancient Grudge anyway for Vial or because they plan to see swords. I do like Body and Mind for its potential against Scapeshift / Valakut decks, and it has a few other corner uses too. However, milling a deck that has Ancient Grudge really sucks.
I'm going to give Familiar a shot, at least for now, due to the added disruption and boost from Honor of the Pure. I like Honor in this build because I have nine fliers and because it pumps Smiter too. Between him, Grunt, and Avenger, that's eight creatures out of burn range when Honor is out.
If you grunt main then 4 canopy is just better for me. In fact 4 canopy is just really good anyway. There is a sort of anti synergy between grunt and canonist, and you sort of replicate the 4/4 beatstick with smiter. I love grunt and play him main myself, but I don't run smiters, and I do run splicers that get killed and feed that bin. I would add that the lack of splicers makes mutavault worse, so 2 is probably right for your list.
sideboard looks a bit iffy to me- as you say its tentative. Rest in peace is terrible with grunt- if you want to hose enemy bins then grunt comes out, presumably?. Do not forget wheel of sun and moon can do a lot of rest in peace's job. It depends on what you are aiming at with the card. I really don't see firewalker being that hot here- finks is better and does the same job, board slots are precious. I'd prefer 4 pridemage- shackles is a right sod- and plenty of storm type decks still use ascension. You should beat RDW anyway.
True believer is ok, you could run leyline in the slot as well if you prefer. I never like relying on 2 cc men to keep me alive- I would rather do so with enchantments like runed halo that don't die to the inevitable pyroclasm. That said you run 4HTP so maybe true believer is better.
Not particuarly fussed on the sword- green and blue protection seems weak in an environ where all removal is targeted R,W or mass, baring abrupt decay. Bant decks have pridemages as std, too- the odds of connecting with it are low.
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As for Thalia, I only run 2x main deck and 1 in the board. It works fine for me.
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I been doing the green splash with canopy's only for pridemage and he's been good but there been games where I lost and I needed him and couldnt because I cracke my canopy earlier.
But I think that right now blue has much better hate bears than green:
Green: Pridemage, Not bad at all
Teeg: Pretty irrelevant in the current meta
Blue:
Clique: 3/1 flyer, flash She the bomb
Kira: Maybe better in the SB againts heavy removal decks, she flies too
Meddling mage: Definitely a few of these in the SB, maybe MB
Phantasmal Image: Worst case copy ur own wisp/splicer best case copy their 9/9 trample, flying monkey warrior.
Thats just from the top of my head. As a side note a recntly tested a black splash for Bob and zealosu persecution and it has been OK results, not good enough.
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Mutavault
1 Eiganjo Castle
6 Plains
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Student of Warfare
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Blade Splicer
4 Flickerwisp
4 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
2 Mask of Memory
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Runed Halo
I would really like to find more board cards against Jund. It's one of the most popular decks out there, and I often find myself not boarding at all. I'm not sure how effective Ghostly Prisons are against it. Though since it's been highly difficult on Cockatrice to find tier 1 decks, my testing is very limited.
It also seems Storm is almost a guaranteed game 1 loss.
In addition, any type of hyper aggro seems to generate automatic losses in the mainboard (I found stuff like Merfolk and Treefolk to be really difficult), and even after board, it's still not easy.
I'd like to tune the mainboard more towards beating this stuff. Jotun Grunts seem to be lackluster against a lot of stuff, but I think he stays in just to deal with Tarmogoyf. Quadruple Mindcensor seems to be a bit too much, as he often just comes in as a flash 2/1 flying beatstick, which seems to be relevant since most of my games end up as ground stalemates due to Blade Splicer and Flickerwisps + Mindcensors getting in there. Kitchen Finks doesn't seem to actually do anything, and I'm very close to dropping them altogether, but I'd like more opinions on this. The lifegain is sometimes nice when I have to burn through life with Horizon Canopy, but I can't remember many times when the 2-4 life actually saved me, though Finks eats Path to Exiles like no other.
I am also debating maybe 1-2 of Swords of X and Y. I read about the tempo losses in the earlier pages, but I find myself not even dropping Mask of Memory early on anyway since I'd rather have a 2cmc drop, and 3cmc drops are saved for surprise vials. Maybe I'm doing this wrong though.
Sideboard really needs work. I want stuff against aggro and Jund. But Jund just seems very solid and I'm just not sure what to do. Gaddock Teeg hasn't actually done anything in the matches I've played. Should I keep the guy in there? Though I have only played against one control deck...
I've also considered a switch over to blue, but I don't have enough experience to know what is better against the current meta.
I will say, Yes. Arbiter is clutch. Our strategy is basically to not do what others are doing and turned into an advantage. Let me explain:
1. 0 Life loss due to fetches> Make fetching harder via arbiter or censor.
2. Very few non-creature spells> Thalia disruption
3. Mostly all plains, give us resilience against Tec, blood moon, fulminator and other random land destruction> We can afford the 4GQ/4 Tec edge to disrupt
sensitive mana foundations.
Like somobody already mention Lynx and Knight do everthing we stand for against, searching the deck.
I think Kira is better suited in the SB as well - what do people think about running 2 Mangara w/ Minamo + maybe 2 stonecloakers/flickerwisps?
I have also thought about running Piracy Charm instead of Vapor Snag - what do you folks think of that?
I am determined to make the U/W version work. I realize it's a bit taxing on us as well with Thalia out and a bunch of disruption spells (and not a lot of card draw, which is a bit of a concern that I'm trying to remedy with Sword/Mask), but I think ultimately it's the strongest version of this deck.
I think turning at most your 2cc spells into 3cc is not that big a deal when you are Vialing in all of your threats.
I've been fiddling around with a sideboard but I don't have access to my list at this moment. I will post a more up-to-date U/W list for your critiquing pleasure.
Part of why this is inherently different from Maverick (which is an aggro deck) is because of card choices like Arbiter (which make this more of a control deck). What this deck does is nickle and dime the **** out of your opponent to make them stumble and stutter as you drop creatures that are full of value, which is why we play so many creatures with come into play abilities. Almost every one of our creatues screw with our opponent or offer some sort of mini-ability.
I would say that the modern version has to play a bit more aggro than the legacy version, but I believe this version stopped trying to be the legacy deck almost a year ago. It had to become its own beast. Arbiter was a choice that was almost left out because SFM was originally an option; the second she got banned, it opened the window for him and we never looked back. The meta is so dependent on fetching and searching and cantripping and this deck doesn't need to do any of it, making Arbiter a powerhouse in our deck more than setting up stip mines and path to exile combos. This is the reason why he's stayed in a lot of lists where Mangara didn't; because he's more than cutesy set ups for the few cards in your deck that interact with him.
For instance, if that Eggs deck that rolled the ProTour had been matched against a solid DnT list, it would have gotten raped. Everything our deck does shuts that deck down. I've had plenty of games against decks like Eggs where I had to ask them what they were playing after the match because Arbiter and Thalia like effects prevented them from really doing anything. That's what this deck does.
I understand why people come in and think the cards are terrible because a lot of them are terrible on an individual basis, but they all have a certain sense of synergy that makes them incredibly strong together. Hacking and slashing to make this deck an aggro deck is a bad idea because there are so many decks that play that game better. Maverick doesn't have the necessary tools to be strong in the ways that it is in Legacy. Knight of the Reliquary isn't quite as good without bomb lands like Maze of Ith and Gaea's Cradle. In this format, she's pretty much just a dumb beater and there are plenty of better ones.
It could work if it was ran more like a UW Restoration control type of deck. Keep Leonin Arbiter, as that is the main card that turns Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter from playable to amazing. The rest could be solid flashy stuff like Restoration Angel, Stonecloaker, Aven Mindcensor and Snapcaster Mage. You could probably cut Aether Vial with so much flash effects, or keep them and run Thirst for Knowledge for extra draw. I probably wouldn't load up on Kira or Geist without Aether Vial. Thalia isn't exactly necessary, but you probably want something to go in if you are facing down Storm (something like Leyline of Sanctity would work fine).
I would like to see someone throw a list like this together and give this a go. It could work.
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Couldn't have said it better myself and I agree 100% on this. I don't think Maverick is our "bigger, more successful" brother. I think D&T is strictly better positioned in the Modern meta and has been for some time.
It can work, but it wouldn't be good.
Vial basically doubles your mana, and causes your opponent to worry, even when you're tapped out.
I feel like a lot of people are trying to jam blue into this deck making it an awful mishmash of D&T and UW Resto that isn't going to accomplish what either one can as effectively.
this.
I think blue could be very fun, and might try it myself some day, but I think its just weaker than a W or W/g Version.
Once an emrakul hits the table youre pretty much done. But a geist can be easily handled by vialing in a creature or flashing in a mindcensor in response to them declaring attackers. You might have to eat 4 if you dont have something else to deal with the angel but they probably wouldnt have attacked if you had something back because geist is so fragile.
Still, I'm having trouble finding alternatives. I'm debating Stonecloaker, but that seems to result in tempo loss.
Also, I'd like to know how those tests with Loxodon Smiter are going. I think I'm going to be putting in 3 and trying it out. Seems like a relevant ability, especially with 30% of the competitive meta being Jund.
You never know unless you try. Just straight out saying "Don't play that. It's bad." before even attempting to play it is overly pessimistic. Sometimes it's the strategy that seems "meh" that turns out to be good in the right meta. I would be willing to give it a go sometime. It's not that I am doing terrible with my WG build (actually quite the opposite). UW Restoration + Leonin Arbiter isn't that far of a stretch. It isn't exactly a mash of two decks, but more of taking UW Resto and adding Arbiter. It already runs Path, Finks, and with Arbiter, swapping out Tectonic Edge for Ghost Quarter isn't a huge change either. Maybe instead of Clique (or Geist, heaven forbid anyone suggest taking Geist out) run Aven Mindcensor and/or Stonecloaker.
You wouldn't need fetches. Mana base is pretty simple with only 2 colors. Path and GQ become awesome. I could see it being good enough to play without outright saying it's bad until I've had a few matches with it.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
I'm about to test a WG hate-bear build before the Chicago GP. It doesn't have Flickerwisp or a few other staples, but I'm liking it (in theory) after a reconfiguration. It only runs green for Loxodon Smiter and a pair of Stirring Wildwood, but I can include Pridemage and other options in the board if so desired. Here's what I'm thinking at the moment:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Jötun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Honor of the Pure
2 Mutavault
2 Stirring Wildwood
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Wooded Bastion
4 Plains
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 True Believer
2 Kor Firewalker
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Sword of Body and Mind
The sideboard is very tentative, and the Finks might be overkill if the meta won't have tons of aggro right now (other than Affinity and Burn, which are partially addressed with Pridemage, Stony Silence, Believer, and Firewalker). If there's room, I might run two Steelshaper's Gift with three different swords (Light and Shadow would be nice), although there's always the possibility that opponents bring in Ancient Grudge anyway for Vial or because they plan to see swords. I do like Body and Mind for its potential against Scapeshift / Valakut decks, and it has a few other corner uses too. However, milling a deck that has Ancient Grudge really sucks.
I'm going to give Familiar a shot, at least for now, due to the added disruption and boost from Honor of the Pure. I like Honor in this build because I have nine fliers and because it pumps Smiter too. Between him, Grunt, and Avenger, that's eight creatures out of burn range when Honor is out.
Liking the list. I'd cut a Mindcensor for a Serra Avenger right off the bat, though. Your sideboard looks really fresh, so that will work itself out on its own through testing - No need to comment on it.
Not a huge fan of Jotun Grunt main, but depending on the meta you're expecting (Storm/Jund) he can be played out earlier than turn 4.
You lack the punching power of Silverblade and Elspeth, but again the meta you are expecting may not require it - You do have HtP which turns your bears into angry bears that eat most things.
My main issue with Ethersworn main is it gives other decks an excuse to side in artifact hate. It's not worth them siding Grudge in or anything if you only have vial, but if they see Ethersworn they definitely will and it can definitely throw a wrench into your plans.
My two(ish?) cents.
a) Thanks. I am won't drop thalia to less than 4 in mono w,where I just can't quite squeeze the canonists in to make 9 2cc hate bears md [arbiter/thalia/canonist]. I may do so in UW if I run cannonists main deck, which I may.
I do not want to play too many spells though. I do not want a mish mash of restoration UW and d and t. I want to try and play D and T.
b) yes, I have- its a good idea. Sprite takes the deck heavily towards fae, though. I am not sure if I will just get a sub std fae/d and t hyrbid or not. Its certainly worth considering. For now I am going to try and make it more traditional control d and t (not counters) with U for clique/image/geist. If it evolves that way towards fae then all well and good, but I am not sure that mono u fae with shackles would not be better at doing that job. But we will see. Some testing is in order.
Teeg is not really totally irrelevant in the current meta- he stops scapeshift, warrens and boarded wraths of any description from any USA or bant aggro/control deck. Ok gifts has gone a fair bit down the pecking order, but I do see use for teeg, even if its not stellar. I think the main reason to splash green is pridemage and canopy, which becomes more important if u run grunts as it feeds the grunt. I agree with your sentiment that blue is potentially better.
If you grunt main then 4 canopy is just better for me. In fact 4 canopy is just really good anyway. There is a sort of anti synergy between grunt and canonist, and you sort of replicate the 4/4 beatstick with smiter. I love grunt and play him main myself, but I don't run smiters, and I do run splicers that get killed and feed that bin. I would add that the lack of splicers makes mutavault worse, so 2 is probably right for your list.
sideboard looks a bit iffy to me- as you say its tentative. Rest in peace is terrible with grunt- if you want to hose enemy bins then grunt comes out, presumably?. Do not forget wheel of sun and moon can do a lot of rest in peace's job. It depends on what you are aiming at with the card. I really don't see firewalker being that hot here- finks is better and does the same job, board slots are precious. I'd prefer 4 pridemage- shackles is a right sod- and plenty of storm type decks still use ascension. You should beat RDW anyway.
True believer is ok, you could run leyline in the slot as well if you prefer. I never like relying on 2 cc men to keep me alive- I would rather do so with enchantments like runed halo that don't die to the inevitable pyroclasm. That said you run 4HTP so maybe true believer is better.
Not particuarly fussed on the sword- green and blue protection seems weak in an environ where all removal is targeted R,W or mass, baring abrupt decay. Bant decks have pridemages as std, too- the odds of connecting with it are low.