I feel like there should be a grixis teachings thread so that people can discuss this variation of the deck and not distract the esper thread from having random cards proposed in it like word of seizing, which isn't in the esper colors.
Please Discuss. If you guys need example lists I have a few.
Always good to post lists mate. I havent been to enthralled with Teachings as powerful as the card is a 4 mana tutor/do nothing is just not fast enough for the format. I do love me a good control deck though, and its the best archetype my card pool supports. The Grixis version interests me because u can play Bolt and Cruel Ultimatum. Basically bolt is one of the best cards in the format killing a large percentage of its creatures. Token and Affinity are also around and pyroclasm is a heck of a card. Path is great but using it early is dangerous and makes cards like Mana Leak worse (stil solid counter I feel) plus who doesn't want to teachings up a Bogardan Helkite haha
I feel like one of the biggest sleepers in this format is detritivore. If you think about killing 2 or 3 lands and then having a 4 to 6 power creature come into play with mana open for back-up, that's really powerful. I have even been hardcasting it against zoo happily in testing, where it's usually out of bolt range just from fetches.
I will always view cruel ultimatum as a pile of garbage. You have to wreck your manabase in order to cast it, and when you finally do...it's little more effective than a solid gifts pile.
Admittedly, we don't use Ravings as well as "Where the heck is my Past in Flames/Pyromancer Ascension" UR Storm, but we can use it pretty decently.
Another reason to play Grixis over Dimir (besides Bolt) is Terminate. It only kills everything black removal can but creatures with protection from red (yeah right, people sideboard in Kor Firewalkers against you). No one 2-cmc black removal spell can kill as much as Terminate (except maybe the restrictive Victim of Night).
I think that ravings outclasses all of the other draw spells in the entire format by a mile. If it requires some recursion, meet the demand. The only major downside is pitching a key bullet; any day of the week, I'll take that over higher mana costs, counterability, and manabase stretching.
Seems decent. The random discard might be helped by snappy. I'm actually kind of disappointed more recently with teachings. Its not really performing as well as I projected. I'm tend to think I never smile has a point about gifts. Gifts tends to just win games when it resolves where teachings requires just as much setup but not as powerful. Teferi is the reason I liked teachings but I'm not sure if its just not just fluff. I miss raw efficiency which for control decks is gtting tougher to construct.
I feel like one of the biggest sleepers in this format is detritivore. If you think about killing 2 or 3 lands and then having a 4 to 6 power creature come into play with mana open for back-up, that's really powerful. I have even been hardcasting it against zoo happily in testing, where it's usually out of bolt range just from fetches.
I will always view cruel ultimatum as a pile of garbage. You have to wreck your manabase in order to cast it, and when you finally do...it's little more effective than a solid gifts pile.
Problem I have with detrivore is that it doesn't beat knight of the reliquary.
Cruel Ultimatum is okay and you don't have to wreck your manabase to use it. This is modern remember? Besides you need somekind of life gain. Actually someone find me a better life gain card so that I don't have to waste space on cruel ultimatum.
Also if you propose some delicious gifts package that insta-kills people then I'll be really happy to try it.
I think that ravings outclasses all of the other draw spells in the entire format by a mile. If it requires some recursion, meet the demand. The only major downside is pitching a key bullet; any day of the week, I'll take that over higher mana costs, counterability, and manabase stretching.
Ravings is good stuff once you get used to using it plus it improves the jund match up(**** Blighting).
To me the teachings deck has become an "abuse snapcaster as much as possible deck", which is why I only play 1 creature other than snapcaster.
This is what I've been fooling around with lately.
Feel like we are getting some where! Teachings is even fine as a 1 off for Gifts, tutors dont need hight slot counts as hey are inefficient and not technically action spells, just a way to have selection. Cruel is great if you can accelerate into it with signets and Coalition relic and use Thirst, but thats more of a tap out build I have been playing with. So basically we need to Find the best finisher and life gain. Batterskull and Wurmcoil (insane v Jund) can do some work and make Academy Ruins a card. I know it can be hard to let go of "always instant" but the utter efficiency of some sorcery speed cards is to high to ignore. There are not a ton of decks where I feel like tapping out is instant death. I like Teferi in the board, he is not what you want in a majority of MUs. Jwar isle is tempting but sac effects are around and u really want a card to play D in some way too.
It is good to see that this forum is about Teachings-based control in general, and not just Esper colors. I think that was necessary and inevitable, and I'm glad that the mods made these moves.
Problem I have with detrivore is that it doesn't beat knight of the reliquary.
It's not there to beat Knights. Its job is to kill some lands, cutting your opponent off of playing spells. As a creature, it outclasses the smaller Zoo men. It's fine that it's smaller than Goyf and Knight; you should be focusing on saving/using your hard removal on those creatures. Detritivore is much more of a soft-lock for the other threats which you would prefer to slip through the radar, if you can afford to do just that. I'll admit this isn't an idea solution, but it's not too shabby for an engine that will stop your opponent from being able to cast spells, given time. This is probably irrelevant though, as Blood Moon is probably just a better way to wreck manabases in URx colors.
Cruel Ultimatum is okay and you don't have to wreck your manabase to use it. This is modern remember? Besides you need somekind of life gain. Actually someone find me a better life gain card so that I don't have to waste space on cruel ultimatum.
Death's Shadow costs 1 mana and solves the life total issue way more effectively than clunky 7-drops which make you vulnerable to LD and Blood Moon (and force you to stop running important colorless utility lands). Cruel Ultimatum is also basically irrelevant against storm combo, if your opponent knows what he's doing. Either it's getting Remanded or your opponent doesn't care about losing 3 cards and you gaining 5 life, or your opponent lost the game a long time ago and any Gifts/Teachings chain is probably going to win the game anyways. Cruel Ultimatum is a crutch. It doesn't literally win games because it's not an actual finisher nor is it a combo endgame, and that's why it's dead weight for a control deck.
Also if you propose some delicious gifts package that insta-kills people then I'll be really happy to try it.
I know that I'm being a sarcastic bastard by saying this, but it's true:
Gifts for:
Good Answer #1
Good Answer #2
Good Answer #3/Snapcaster Mage
Mystical Teachings
You get a good answer, stop your opponent from being productive, and then use the Teachings to get another Gifts and continue this chain. This is all instant-speed, and it's a heck of a lot more solid than gambling on a 7-mana sorcery.
I understand that Cruel Ultimatum is notorious for being strong against Jund, and Jund is really showing up in the metagame. But I think that this format has better tools for crippling that greedy deck. #1 on that list is Blood Moon, which completely destroys Jund decks. Their manabases cannot possibly be tuned to cast spells consistently and have enough basics to have 3 colors under a Moon; that's just the nature of the deck. If you think that Spreading Seas and Tectonic Edge were good against Jund, just imagine how ridiculous of a blowout Blood Moon is. Especially alongside a way of removing one basic forest from the table....
Detrivore was pretty cool in my testing as well, but its not efective against every one. A clean U/R deck with blood moon works, its called splinter twin, they play control then insta win instead of dragging out the game with a deck that cant anser large guys. True control needs good removal, there are a lot of good cards to circumvent counters that are seeing plenty of play. Unburial+ Iono kinda does the same thing as Detrivore/blood moon and is strapped to a 7/7 Flyer. Being able to insta win against several decks is pretty sweet. Its quite easy to set up casting it with protection especially with something like dispel. Im quite sold on it at the moment, it takes so little space in the deck and rides on the back of what you are already doing.
On another note, a card that I like in Grixis is Sever te Bloodline. Its and effect you dont have and the flashback seals the deal.
Everyone and their mother is hung up on cheapshot win conditions that take a lot of resources to set up and don't take much to disrupt. I'm taking a break from posting in this forum. I feel like I do nothing here beyond beating a dead horse in speaking to deaf ears and numb minds.
Desperate ravings seems really good to me but it seriously hurts my brain to use. Should I save it for when I have a card I would like to pitch through luck or should I just use it when I would use a think twice and hope that my deck's consistency will leave me with the hand I want most of the time?
Also INS I follow your posts constantly but usually don't have anything constructive to add because I'm a noob in case you feel like nobody is listening to you
Everyone and their mother is hung up on cheapshot win conditions that take a lot of resources to set up and don't take much to disrupt. I'm taking a break from posting in this forum. I feel like I do nothing here beyond beating a dead horse in speaking to deaf ears and numb minds.
Im sorry you feel that way You dont want to talk about win conditions? Your saying Detrivore and Teferi are all you need to win against the whole field and dont need resources to protect? Forums are for debate and throwing out different angles or view points. I take what you have to say seriously no need to be condescending. I was joking about splinter twin, agree about Cruel and proposing Iona Because it doesn't take a lot to set up or protect. I apologize that Iona is out of place in a Grxis thread, just where my head was at, as Im looking at full 4-5cc. What about Sphinx of Jwar Isle you dont like that card any more?
I think Grixis Teachings has some key advantages over say... Esper Teachings.
The most important of those advantages being better matchups against blue-based tempo decks and better answers to planeswalkers (assuming you're playing lightning bolt).
I think the largest incentive to play Grixis Teachings would ideally be Volcanic Fallout. It's not incredibly strong vs. Zoo (although it can still be pretty good), but it's going to be awesome vs. just about any other deck in the format that wants to win with Creatures. Just look below for decks that Fallout is very very strong against..
1. Wrecks Token-based strategies (assuming they don't have tons of pumps out).
2. Wrecks any Blue based fish style deck. Incredibly potent against Merfolk, Faeries type decks, decks relying on Delver, any blue deck playing Geist (which is normally impossibly hard to deal with while playing teachings).
3. Can potentially wreck splinter twin, assuming they're comboing out with either Pestermite, or Kiki Jiki.
4. Acts as a trump card vs. any Teachings Mirror trying to win off White Sun's Zenith, or even Manlands.
5. Is probably a better mass removal spell vs. Affinity than any wrath would be, due to it's ability to wipe out manlands along with just about all of their creatures outside a pumped Ravager or huge Master of Etherium.
6. Kills all the non-Goyf creatures in Jund..
7. Is pretty good against Martyr Proc, especially any versions playing procession. Lowers their life total, potentially kills off wayfarer, squadron hawks, or any other pesky weenie they try to drop. Forces them to sac Martyr perhaps earlier than they would want.
Outside Fallout, Sulfur Elemental is a nice sideboard card, Bolt is probably better in the current meta than Path to Exile would be in here, Shattering spree is a nice card to have access to, and with playing direct damage + snapcasters, you probably don't even need any real finisher outside a few bolts, snapcasters, and perhaps a clique or two. (I would maybe give consideration to trying Comet Storm in here too, but that would be more experimental). I also think Stensia Bloodhall would be a nice land to include in here as a form of absolute inevitability (outside random land-destruction effects, which are quite rare in the format).
With that being said, there are some slight disadvantages to a Grixis Teachings deck. I think the biggest is the obvious loss of Esper Charm as a great catch-all and card advantage spell. The lack of being able to answer enchantments can potentially be problematic as well. The other primary disadvantage is of course a loss in the ability to gain life directly against decks like Burn, RDW, Boros, and others.
I'm a fan of Stensia Bloodhall because it's an absolutely reactionary win-con (in a deck where attacking with a Creeping Tar Pit costs as much as a Cryptic Command) that stacks with your other ways to win (unlike Nephalia Drownyard). Sometimes, you used up all your Teachings finding answers and your draw spells won't come, so it's nice to have more ways to win.
Beware--Kitchen Finks often survives Volcanic Fallout and compensates for the life loss, and I always thought that card was underestimated against control (probably why Vampire Nighthawk fell by the wayside in Jund).
Consume the Meek wipes out more of Affinity's board than Volcanic Fallout (won't hit Frogmite, but will hit huge Ravagers and MoEs). Of course, it costs more, and Fallout has fringe benefits in hitting Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas so he can't pop his ultimate next turn.
Geist of Saint Traft is not impossible to deal with in Teachings even after he resolves--try sac spells like Tribute to Hunger (or Geth's Verdict), the good old board wipe Consume the Meek, or just blocking him with surprise Tiagos or sneaky Creeping Tar Pits. That being said, if you don't find any of these ways to deal with him fast, you lose pretty quickly, and something has to be said about a creature that demands board wipes on his own.
Yeah, ive played enough matches with esper teachings to understand consume the meek. I just get enough of the meta at this point to understand that volcqnic fallout is the only card that can potentially wrath at instant speed on turn 3 in the format. For someone who preaches about having answers that can get around disruption, i would assume you would get the value of this. Generally, im a more proactive player who would prefer tempo decks, but i get the value of pure efficiency and pure control.
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What I find hilarious is that volcanic fallout is uber good against everything creature based except for zoo and if you look at those dailies...there is no zoo.
Anyway quick update. This list is pretty old and probably outdated, but nobody has posted any sort of deck to give people rough ideas.
i'm curious about something, would searing wind then flashbacked with a snapcaster mage be to mana intensive of a win con for a deck like this?
both fetchable via teachings.
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i'm curious about something, would searing wind then flashbacked with a snapcaster mage be to mana intensive of a win con for a deck like this?
both fetchable via teachings.
Generally in teachings you want every single card in the deck to be either an answer, or something that can disrupt your opponent. Searing wind won't do that until you've already stabilized & locked the game down.
The main reason I preach White Sun's Zenith as a win condition, is that it can poop out chump blockers mid-game, whereas searing wind would generally deal 10 damage only when you've already won. Most traditional win conditions in teachings can either win quick, or disrupt as early as turn 4/5.
That being said, if you're not playing white, it's an option, albeit, a pretty crappy one. You would probably be better off just playing a single comet storm to be entirely honest.
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Please Discuss. If you guys need example lists I have a few.
I will always view cruel ultimatum as a pile of garbage. You have to wreck your manabase in order to cast it, and when you finally do...it's little more effective than a solid gifts pile.
Admittedly, we don't use Ravings as well as "Where the heck is my Past in Flames/Pyromancer Ascension" UR Storm, but we can use it pretty decently.
Another reason to play Grixis over Dimir (besides Bolt) is Terminate. It only kills everything black removal can but creatures with protection from red (yeah right, people sideboard in Kor Firewalkers against you). No one 2-cmc black removal spell can kill as much as Terminate (except maybe the restrictive Victim of Night).
Volcanic Fallout is a nice, cheap, situational board sweeper.
Problem I have with detrivore is that it doesn't beat knight of the reliquary.
Cruel Ultimatum is okay and you don't have to wreck your manabase to use it. This is modern remember? Besides you need somekind of life gain. Actually someone find me a better life gain card so that I don't have to waste space on cruel ultimatum.
Also if you propose some delicious gifts package that insta-kills people then I'll be really happy to try it.
Ravings is good stuff once you get used to using it plus it improves the jund match up(**** Blighting).
To me the teachings deck has become an "abuse snapcaster as much as possible deck", which is why I only play 1 creature other than snapcaster.
This is what I've been fooling around with lately.
4 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cryptic Command
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Geth's Verdict (So good)
1 Consume the meek
1 Negate
1 Pact of negation
1 Tribute to hunger
1 Go for the throat
1 Repeal
1 Swerve
2 Terminate
2 Cruel Ultimatum
I splashed 1 Breeding Pool and 3 Nature's claim and 1 ancient grudge in the sideboard because Nature's claim is just that good.
It's not there to beat Knights. Its job is to kill some lands, cutting your opponent off of playing spells. As a creature, it outclasses the smaller Zoo men. It's fine that it's smaller than Goyf and Knight; you should be focusing on saving/using your hard removal on those creatures. Detritivore is much more of a soft-lock for the other threats which you would prefer to slip through the radar, if you can afford to do just that. I'll admit this isn't an idea solution, but it's not too shabby for an engine that will stop your opponent from being able to cast spells, given time. This is probably irrelevant though, as Blood Moon is probably just a better way to wreck manabases in URx colors.
Death's Shadow costs 1 mana and solves the life total issue way more effectively than clunky 7-drops which make you vulnerable to LD and Blood Moon (and force you to stop running important colorless utility lands). Cruel Ultimatum is also basically irrelevant against storm combo, if your opponent knows what he's doing. Either it's getting Remanded or your opponent doesn't care about losing 3 cards and you gaining 5 life, or your opponent lost the game a long time ago and any Gifts/Teachings chain is probably going to win the game anyways. Cruel Ultimatum is a crutch. It doesn't literally win games because it's not an actual finisher nor is it a combo endgame, and that's why it's dead weight for a control deck.
I know that I'm being a sarcastic bastard by saying this, but it's true:
Gifts for:
Good Answer #1
Good Answer #2
Good Answer #3/Snapcaster Mage
Mystical Teachings
You get a good answer, stop your opponent from being productive, and then use the Teachings to get another Gifts and continue this chain. This is all instant-speed, and it's a heck of a lot more solid than gambling on a 7-mana sorcery.
I understand that Cruel Ultimatum is notorious for being strong against Jund, and Jund is really showing up in the metagame. But I think that this format has better tools for crippling that greedy deck. #1 on that list is Blood Moon, which completely destroys Jund decks. Their manabases cannot possibly be tuned to cast spells consistently and have enough basics to have 3 colors under a Moon; that's just the nature of the deck. If you think that Spreading Seas and Tectonic Edge were good against Jund, just imagine how ridiculous of a blowout Blood Moon is. Especially alongside a way of removing one basic forest from the table....
On another note, a card that I like in Grixis is Sever te Bloodline. Its and effect you dont have and the flashback seals the deal.
Also INS I follow your posts constantly but usually don't have anything constructive to add because I'm a noob in case you feel like nobody is listening to you
Im sorry you feel that way You dont want to talk about win conditions? Your saying Detrivore and Teferi are all you need to win against the whole field and dont need resources to protect? Forums are for debate and throwing out different angles or view points. I take what you have to say seriously no need to be condescending. I was joking about splinter twin, agree about Cruel and proposing Iona Because it doesn't take a lot to set up or protect. I apologize that Iona is out of place in a Grxis thread, just where my head was at, as Im looking at full 4-5cc. What about Sphinx of Jwar Isle you dont like that card any more?
The most important of those advantages being better matchups against blue-based tempo decks and better answers to planeswalkers (assuming you're playing lightning bolt).
I think the largest incentive to play Grixis Teachings would ideally be Volcanic Fallout. It's not incredibly strong vs. Zoo (although it can still be pretty good), but it's going to be awesome vs. just about any other deck in the format that wants to win with Creatures. Just look below for decks that Fallout is very very strong against..
1. Wrecks Token-based strategies (assuming they don't have tons of pumps out).
2. Wrecks any Blue based fish style deck. Incredibly potent against Merfolk, Faeries type decks, decks relying on Delver, any blue deck playing Geist (which is normally impossibly hard to deal with while playing teachings).
3. Can potentially wreck splinter twin, assuming they're comboing out with either Pestermite, or Kiki Jiki.
4. Acts as a trump card vs. any Teachings Mirror trying to win off White Sun's Zenith, or even Manlands.
5. Is probably a better mass removal spell vs. Affinity than any wrath would be, due to it's ability to wipe out manlands along with just about all of their creatures outside a pumped Ravager or huge Master of Etherium.
6. Kills all the non-Goyf creatures in Jund..
7. Is pretty good against Martyr Proc, especially any versions playing procession. Lowers their life total, potentially kills off wayfarer, squadron hawks, or any other pesky weenie they try to drop. Forces them to sac Martyr perhaps earlier than they would want.
Outside Fallout, Sulfur Elemental is a nice sideboard card, Bolt is probably better in the current meta than Path to Exile would be in here, Shattering spree is a nice card to have access to, and with playing direct damage + snapcasters, you probably don't even need any real finisher outside a few bolts, snapcasters, and perhaps a clique or two. (I would maybe give consideration to trying Comet Storm in here too, but that would be more experimental). I also think Stensia Bloodhall would be a nice land to include in here as a form of absolute inevitability (outside random land-destruction effects, which are quite rare in the format).
With that being said, there are some slight disadvantages to a Grixis Teachings deck. I think the biggest is the obvious loss of Esper Charm as a great catch-all and card advantage spell. The lack of being able to answer enchantments can potentially be problematic as well. The other primary disadvantage is of course a loss in the ability to gain life directly against decks like Burn, RDW, Boros, and others.
Beware--Kitchen Finks often survives Volcanic Fallout and compensates for the life loss, and I always thought that card was underestimated against control (probably why Vampire Nighthawk fell by the wayside in Jund).
Consume the Meek wipes out more of Affinity's board than Volcanic Fallout (won't hit Frogmite, but will hit huge Ravagers and MoEs). Of course, it costs more, and Fallout has fringe benefits in hitting Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas so he can't pop his ultimate next turn.
You could still use Tribute to Hunger and maybe Tendrils of Corruption to gain a few life against aggro, I suppose.
Geist of Saint Traft is not impossible to deal with in Teachings even after he resolves--try sac spells like Tribute to Hunger (or Geth's Verdict), the good old board wipe Consume the Meek, or just blocking him with surprise Tiagos or sneaky Creeping Tar Pits. That being said, if you don't find any of these ways to deal with him fast, you lose pretty quickly, and something has to be said about a creature that demands board wipes on his own.
Anyway quick update. This list is pretty old and probably outdated, but nobody has posted any sort of deck to give people rough ideas.
4 Spell snare/Mana Leak (I changed this depending on what I thought the meta would be)
4 Desperate Ravings
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cryptic Command
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Geth's Verdict
1 Consume the meek
1 Negate
1 Pact of negation
1 Tribute to hunger
1 Go for the throat
1 Repeal
1 Firespout
2 Terminate
2 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Marsh Flats
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Cascade Bluffs
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Dreadship Reef
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Breeding Pool
Breeding Pool is obviously for grudge and nature's claim out of the board.
both fetchable via teachings.
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Generally in teachings you want every single card in the deck to be either an answer, or something that can disrupt your opponent. Searing wind won't do that until you've already stabilized & locked the game down.
The main reason I preach White Sun's Zenith as a win condition, is that it can poop out chump blockers mid-game, whereas searing wind would generally deal 10 damage only when you've already won. Most traditional win conditions in teachings can either win quick, or disrupt as early as turn 4/5.
That being said, if you're not playing white, it's an option, albeit, a pretty crappy one. You would probably be better off just playing a single comet storm to be entirely honest.