In practice I have found that the deck operates in a much more complicated fashion than people would give it credit for. There are a lot of decisions to be made other than turning creatures sideways (although that is still the strategy at hand).
I'm going to start testing some other cards, namely Brimstone Volley and Arc Trail. I think Volley may actually be better than Grenade, and I have two reasons for my suspicion: (1) Goblins die a lot without your help in sacrificing them (and sacrificing Goblins who aren't going to die puts us behind) and (2) it works at instant speed, so you have a much wider range of applications. Arc Trail sets up more two-for-ones and clears paths, both of which are good things.
Another card I have pondered about, but I'm not sure of all of the implications: Shrine of Burning Rage.
You don't need to be all in aggro to play goblins. My black red build was pretty good and it was more of a tempo deck.
You are absolutely right. I guess I as being a bit pretentious. Here's the way I see it though:
The fact is, if you're not playing an all-in goblin deck right now, you're just playing a sub par BR tempo deck. And there's nothing wrong with that! Tribal themes are fun, but from a competitive standpoint, why not scrap the goblin theme and just play Bob and more bolts? Or go RW and have steppe lynx carry your team? Won't every aspect of your deck get better? Isn't boros a simply more efficient version of the goblin deck with a better fight against decks resistant to red? There's only one downside to not playing goblins:
You won't have Goblin Grenade.
I just don't see the point of a competitive tribal goblins without this beast cannon that can kill people out of nowhere. Without 4 grenades, you're less likely to see, what I believe to be, the main point of this deck. I'm really just never sad to see 2 of these. just mean's my opponent is on a faster clock than they realize. Just my thoughts.
@theastro:
Brimstone Volley and Arc Trail seems like they have potential. Not sure what arc trail kills that needs to go, maybe some examples are in order?
As for Brimstone volley, I heard of t2 players using it in conjunction with goblin grenade to start up their own morbid (10 damage for 4 mana, seems good). course that's 4 mana in a goblin deck. The issue I see with brimstone would be when you wanna apply more pressure but can't because you need to hold 3 mana up from brimstone. I can see the potential though.
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
I see Arc Trail as a sideboard card that answers the following really well: mana producer swarms (from decks like Bant) and Delver decks (obviously for the Delver, as well as support guys like Confidant and Snapcaster). I see these decks in the local meta, and obviously metas vary, so it is just a thought.
As far as the whole Tribal/Goblins/BR/Boros idea goes, I can see the argument. Two counter points would be (1) this makes a tremendous entry level deck/secondary deck because it is cheap and it has some cards that port to other decks and (2) it allows us to play some great cards that aren't otherwise seen (here I am thinking about Frenzied Goblin and to a lesser extent, because he does show up elsewhere, Goblin Bushwhacker). I can't see how anything can rival Boros for pure pressure and to some extent flexibility, but we can carve a niche.
EDIT: I should also add that splashing for Inquisition of Kozilek is the real deal and is the only reason I don't run mono-Red.
Warren instigator can be a great way to force damage, between peaks and lords. But without the big drops to toss down in him, i think his spot is better used elsewhere. My goblins is straight red, so weirdling doesnt suit me, anyone else?
Instigator never impressed me that much when he was standard legal. My guess is that if you play Instigator you need to play some of the higher CMC goblins to take advantage of his ability. Double Strike with Chieftains on the board is not to be taken lightly, however. Worth a look.
As far as the Weirding is concerned, I'm not quite sure. What does it offer us? Is it flexible, potentially letting us get an opposing creature with relatively little downside? Does it curve out goblins? I'm not quite sure.
EDIT: Turn two Weirding would play well with Goblin Arsonist.
my gobo decks average cmc is a hair over 1 so instigator would be the top of my curve. weirding seems like real removal out classes it. the only gobo in black I've wanted to test is auntie's snitch to better rebuild post pyroclasm. so often my turn 2 is 2 more 2 power guys though which obviously outclass it and I'm not sure I need to worry about the late game at the expense of the early.
It has very few tricks but is consistent, powerful, and fast. It has more of a Legacy Fish set up rather than Legacy Goblins since you are depending more on buffs and lords with burn being your counterspells. Opponent shocklands have been great for Goblin King. The most impressive game has been having an opponent going T1 Burrenton Forge-Tender T2 Kor Firewalker T3 Kor Firewalker T4 Burrenton Forge-Tender but he could not keep up with an Æther Vial, Goblin Wardriver, Goblin Bushwhacker, Mogg War Marshal, and two Goblin Kings. His Sacred Foundry came back to haunt him. There's also been a very occasional god hand T3 win (usually double Goblin Guide and double Goblin Grenade.)
Obviously a scatter-shot sort of tournament. The goal was to trim the deck down to increase speed and leave the black in for sideboard purposes. It seemed to work well and the deck was just stone-walled by Finks/RA.
It has very few tricks but is consistent, powerful, and fast. It has more of a Legacy Fish set up rather than Legacy Goblins since you are depending more on buffs and lords with burn being your counterspells. Opponent shocklands have been great for Goblin King. The most impressive game has been having an opponent going T1 Burrenton Forge-Tender T2 Kor Firewalker T3 Kor Firewalker T4 Burrenton Forge-Tender but he could not keep up with an Æther Vial, Goblin Wardriver, Goblin Bushwhacker, Mogg War Marshal, and two Goblin Kings. His Sacred Foundry came back to haunt him. There's also been a very occasional god hand T3 win (usually double Goblin Guide and double Goblin Grenade.)
I am in a similar place, with an extra two land, no burst lightning and two seige-gang commander. How do you find the dragon claw in the SB?
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I am in a similar place, with an extra two land, no burst lightning and two seige-gang commander. How do you find the dragon claw in the SB?
I've recently dropped one Goblin King for another land. Dragon's claw has been a pretty good addition. It gives an edge against RDW/Burn decks and can help put a stop to Grapeshot combo.
My plan is probably like most of you; I try to get the most damage possible in through beating with goblins. When the window where you can connect with your dudes closes I burn them out. This is one of the reasons why I like Ember Hauler so much. It is releveant in both phases of the game. I imagine this is how most of you also play the deck. However, I've discovered theres a second window of beating possible. If your opponent has stabilized the board and theres no reason for you to attack, hold your Bushwackers and Chieftans in your hand. In order to win, your opponnent will at some time begin to attack you. This is the second window, and a War-Marshall, Bushwacker and a Goblin Grenade stands for 11 damage, not counting whatever you may still have on the battlefield.
Why don't I see more Goblin Cohort reading this thread? It's absolutely vital for me to land a turn 1 goblin. As a result I run 10 1-drop goblins, (Goblin Bushwacker is really a 2-drop). I guess Cohort is the first to get cut for Æther Vial, but how useful is the vial? I haven't played with Vial myself, but I find control MUs the easiest. Modern isn't legacy, and we wont have to worry about FoW and other broken counterspells. By all means if it does the difference tell me.
@RetrovirusX: Dragon's claw won't work against the Grapeshot storm decks. They only CAST grapeshot once, then it gets copied x times. Dragon's claw will only trigger once.
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@RetrovirusX: Dragon's claw won't work against the Grapeshot storm decks. They only CAST grapeshot once, then it gets copied x times. Dragon's claw will only trigger once.
That is correct but all those rituals they cast leading up to the storm all add life.
Æther Vial, but how useful is the vial? I haven't played with Vial myself, but I find control MUs the easiest. Modern isn't legacy, and we wont have to worry about FoW and other broken counterspells.
I love vial, it allows for a really explosive turn. As you said, you can hold on to goblins and cause a huge attack, and vial just fuels that. It can often be a dead card, but in my experience, its been worth it.
I love vial, it allows for a really explosive turn. As you said, you can hold on to goblins and cause a huge attack, and vial just fuels that. It can often be a dead card, but in my experience, its been worth it.
Yes it may set you up for a more explosive turn later on, but my main plan is to be the fastest beatdown deck there is in modern, and it would seem like Vial slows me down. I admit that there is a economic side to the discussion, hence the reason I haven't tried it out for myself, but if the common understanding is that the Vial is needed, I won't argue with you.
I would also love to see some testing results. I don't have the chance to play much myself, but the games I play, I record the results of. So here is the results from the other night. Keep in mind that this is really the first time I've actually tested this deck, and my list and sideboard wasn't optimal for many of the matches.
OPPONENT Games Matches
UW TRON 1-2 0-1
Martyr proc 0-2 0-1
RDW 0-3 0-1
Hive Mind 0-2 0-1
MBC 2-0 1-0
Naya pod 1-2 0-1
WBR goodstuff 1-2 0-1
Death and T 2-0 1-0
Mono U 3-2 1-0
Boros 1-1
GW amulet vigor 1-1
UB Faeries 4-2 2-0
Storm 2-2 1-1
Merfolk 1-2 0-1
Mirror 2-1 1-0
Zoo 0-2 0-1
Esperblade 0-2 0-1
ELVES: 0-2 0-1
21-28 7-11
As you can see I've lost more than I've won, (at least you won't have to question if I write down results when I'm winning). I only count the best of three matches as match vin/loss. MartyrProc is a walkover for them. No surprise there... I played Zoo in a modern 2-man cue. The second game was close, but it's probably a bad matchup for us. How do you feel the Jund MU is? I have yet to play against them.
As I suspected the best matchups is versus control. I should be able make the aggro/rdw MUs better. Does it resemble your experience with the deck? I'll post more when I get to play more soon.
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The way you begin a modern goblin deck is:
4 goblin grenade
4 Lightning bolt
After that it's personal preference and gravy.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
I'm going to start testing some other cards, namely Brimstone Volley and Arc Trail. I think Volley may actually be better than Grenade, and I have two reasons for my suspicion: (1) Goblins die a lot without your help in sacrificing them (and sacrificing Goblins who aren't going to die puts us behind) and (2) it works at instant speed, so you have a much wider range of applications. Arc Trail sets up more two-for-ones and clears paths, both of which are good things.
Another card I have pondered about, but I'm not sure of all of the implications: Shrine of Burning Rage.
Thoughts?
You are absolutely right. I guess I as being a bit pretentious. Here's the way I see it though:
The fact is, if you're not playing an all-in goblin deck right now, you're just playing a sub par BR tempo deck. And there's nothing wrong with that! Tribal themes are fun, but from a competitive standpoint, why not scrap the goblin theme and just play Bob and more bolts? Or go RW and have steppe lynx carry your team? Won't every aspect of your deck get better? Isn't boros a simply more efficient version of the goblin deck with a better fight against decks resistant to red? There's only one downside to not playing goblins:
You won't have Goblin Grenade.
I just don't see the point of a competitive tribal goblins without this beast cannon that can kill people out of nowhere. Without 4 grenades, you're less likely to see, what I believe to be, the main point of this deck. I'm really just never sad to see 2 of these. just mean's my opponent is on a faster clock than they realize. Just my thoughts.
@theastro:
Brimstone Volley and Arc Trail seems like they have potential. Not sure what arc trail kills that needs to go, maybe some examples are in order?
As for Brimstone volley, I heard of t2 players using it in conjunction with goblin grenade to start up their own morbid (10 damage for 4 mana, seems good). course that's 4 mana in a goblin deck. The issue I see with brimstone would be when you wanna apply more pressure but can't because you need to hold 3 mana up from brimstone. I can see the potential though.
As far as the whole Tribal/Goblins/BR/Boros idea goes, I can see the argument. Two counter points would be (1) this makes a tremendous entry level deck/secondary deck because it is cheap and it has some cards that port to other decks and (2) it allows us to play some great cards that aren't otherwise seen (here I am thinking about Frenzied Goblin and to a lesser extent, because he does show up elsewhere, Goblin Bushwhacker). I can't see how anything can rival Boros for pure pressure and to some extent flexibility, but we can carve a niche.
EDIT: I should also add that splashing for Inquisition of Kozilek is the real deal and is the only reason I don't run mono-Red.
As far as the Weirding is concerned, I'm not quite sure. What does it offer us? Is it flexible, potentially letting us get an opposing creature with relatively little downside? Does it curve out goblins? I'm not quite sure.
EDIT: Turn two Weirding would play well with Goblin Arsonist.
4 goblin bushwhacker
4 goblin war marshal
4 Bloodmark mentor
4 goblin chieftain
4 boggart ram-gang
4 goblin wardriver
3 tuktuk the explorer
4 shrine of burning rage
4 goblin grenande
1 outrage shaman
4 cavern of souls
16 mountain
I didn't see this thread and posted it in developing by accident whoops...
well anyways this deck is extremely fast and I've had a lot of fun with it.
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin King
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
4 Æther Vial
3 Goblin Grenade
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Blood Crypt
3 Shattering Spree
3 Dragon's Claw
2 Combust
2 Path to Exile
3 Rain of Gore
2 Blood Moon
It has very few tricks but is consistent, powerful, and fast. It has more of a Legacy Fish set up rather than Legacy Goblins since you are depending more on buffs and lords with burn being your counterspells. Opponent shocklands have been great for Goblin King. The most impressive game has been having an opponent going T1 Burrenton Forge-Tender T2 Kor Firewalker T3 Kor Firewalker T4 Burrenton Forge-Tender but he could not keep up with an Æther Vial, Goblin Wardriver, Goblin Bushwhacker, Mogg War Marshal, and two Goblin Kings. His Sacred Foundry came back to haunt him. There's also been a very occasional god hand T3 win (usually double Goblin Guide and double Goblin Grenade.)
4 Frenzied Goblin
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Brimstone Valley
3 Goblin Grenade
2 Pillar of Flame
8 Mountain
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Sulfurous Springs
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Earwig Squad
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Inquisiton of Kozilek
Obviously a scatter-shot sort of tournament. The goal was to trim the deck down to increase speed and leave the black in for sideboard purposes. It seemed to work well and the deck was just stone-walled by Finks/RA.
Is Rain of Gore viable?
I am in a similar place, with an extra two land, no burst lightning and two seige-gang commander. How do you find the dragon claw in the SB?
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
I've recently dropped one Goblin King for another land. Dragon's claw has been a pretty good addition. It gives an edge against RDW/Burn decks and can help put a stop to Grapeshot combo.
4 Goblin Guide
2 Frenzied Goblin
4 Goblin Wardriver
3 Mogg War-Marshall
3 Ember Hauler
4 Goblin Bushwacker
4 Goblin Chieftan
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Goblin Grenade
21 mountain
My plan is probably like most of you; I try to get the most damage possible in through beating with goblins. When the window where you can connect with your dudes closes I burn them out. This is one of the reasons why I like Ember Hauler so much. It is releveant in both phases of the game. I imagine this is how most of you also play the deck. However, I've discovered theres a second window of beating possible. If your opponent has stabilized the board and theres no reason for you to attack, hold your Bushwackers and Chieftans in your hand. In order to win, your opponnent will at some time begin to attack you. This is the second window, and a War-Marshall, Bushwacker and a Goblin Grenade stands for 11 damage, not counting whatever you may still have on the battlefield.
Why don't I see more Goblin Cohort reading this thread? It's absolutely vital for me to land a turn 1 goblin. As a result I run 10 1-drop goblins, (Goblin Bushwacker is really a 2-drop). I guess Cohort is the first to get cut for Æther Vial, but how useful is the vial? I haven't played with Vial myself, but I find control MUs the easiest. Modern isn't legacy, and we wont have to worry about FoW and other broken counterspells. By all means if it does the difference tell me.
I want to ask what is the most common sideboarding against us? Leyline of Sanctity? Kitchen Finks? Dragon's Claw? Do you sideboard against expected sideboarding?
@RetrovirusX: Dragon's claw won't work against the Grapeshot storm decks. They only CAST grapeshot once, then it gets copied x times. Dragon's claw will only trigger once.
That is correct but all those rituals they cast leading up to the storm all add life.
I love vial, it allows for a really explosive turn. As you said, you can hold on to goblins and cause a huge attack, and vial just fuels that. It can often be a dead card, but in my experience, its been worth it.
Yes it may set you up for a more explosive turn later on, but my main plan is to be the fastest beatdown deck there is in modern, and it would seem like Vial slows me down. I admit that there is a economic side to the discussion, hence the reason I haven't tried it out for myself, but if the common understanding is that the Vial is needed, I won't argue with you.
I would also love to see some testing results. I don't have the chance to play much myself, but the games I play, I record the results of. So here is the results from the other night. Keep in mind that this is really the first time I've actually tested this deck, and my list and sideboard wasn't optimal for many of the matches.
OPPONENT Games Matches
UW TRON 1-2 0-1
Martyr proc 0-2 0-1
RDW 0-3 0-1
Hive Mind 0-2 0-1
MBC 2-0 1-0
Naya pod 1-2 0-1
WBR goodstuff 1-2 0-1
Death and T 2-0 1-0
Mono U 3-2 1-0
Boros 1-1
GW amulet vigor 1-1
UB Faeries 4-2 2-0
Storm 2-2 1-1
Merfolk 1-2 0-1
Mirror 2-1 1-0
Zoo 0-2 0-1
Esperblade 0-2 0-1
ELVES: 0-2 0-1
21-28 7-11
As you can see I've lost more than I've won, (at least you won't have to question if I write down results when I'm winning). I only count the best of three matches as match vin/loss. MartyrProc is a walkover for them. No surprise there... I played Zoo in a modern 2-man cue. The second game was close, but it's probably a bad matchup for us. How do you feel the Jund MU is? I have yet to play against them.
If I try to categorize I get something like this:
Combo: 2-4 1-2
Control 10-8 4-2
Midrange 2-5 0-2
Aggro/RDW 4-9 1-3
Other: 3-4 1-2
(other=merfolk,martyrproc and death and taxes)
As I suspected the best matchups is versus control. I should be able make the aggro/rdw MUs better. Does it resemble your experience with the deck? I'll post more when I get to play more soon.