Against RDW, Zoo, Jund, etc, it can make a huge difference. I generally put the game on lockdown before turn 7, though, with all my removal and sweepers. At that point, Cruel is enough to fully stabilize outside of any form of burn.
Against RDW, Zoo, Jund, etc, it can make a huge difference. I generally put the game on lockdown before turn 7, though, with all my removal and sweepers. At that point, Cruel is enough to fully stabilize outside of any form of burn.
Fair enough.
Honestly, though, I don't know if either are even worth the space (they don't do much vs. combo). I might just run more Cliques.
I definitely feel like 3 Cliques are almost mandatory. I like the mixture of 2 Titan, 1 Batterskull. Gives me nice utility against most of the field, and while neither do anything against combo, I will keep in 1 Titan just as an "I win" button for that matchup.
Clique + Cruel might just end up being my main win condition.
I definitely feel like 3 Cliques are almost mandatory. I like the mixture of 2 Titan, 1 Batterskull. Gives me nice utility against most of the field, and while neither do anything against combo, I will keep in 1 Titan just as an "I win" button for that matchup.
Clique + Cruel might just end up being my main win condition.
I agree. Right now I run three Cliques and I wouldn't run any less; it's easily one of the best cards in the deck (next to Cruel, of course).
I haven't seen it often enough to really notice much of an impact (as a 1-of should, I suppose). The times where I've resolved it turn 8 after a Cruel have been absolutely back-breaking. Usually, my opponent just can't come up with enough answers to get through it. Aside from those instances, though, it's been decent at best. I might relegate it to the sideboard.
I haven't seen it often enough to really notice much of an impact (as a 1-of should, I suppose). The times where I've resolved it turn 8 after a Cruel have been absolutely back-breaking. Usually, my opponent just can't come up with enough answers to get through it. Aside from those instances, though, it's been decent at best. I might relegate it to the sideboard.
The aggro matchups, who have no real way to deal with it. However, even in those matchups, it feels too slow.
I've also been testing Teachings and Gifts, so I'm not even sure that Cruel Control is the way to go for this format. I'm getting good results with Gifts, so I might not even end up playing 5CC. :/
The aggro matchups, who have no real way to deal with it. However, even in those matchups, it feels too slow.
I've also been testing Teachings and Gifts, so I'm not even sure that Cruel Control is the way to go for this format. I'm getting good results with Gifts, so I might not even end up playing 5CC. :/
Yeah, I'm not sure if Cruel's fit for this format. At least not right now.
Our worst matchup has been fixed. Now it is time to brew away.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
question, how hard in general has control been hit with ponder and preordain out of hte picture? I Know combo will be hit greatly by this, but what about control?
You're running a lot of sweepers. Are you certain that you're that vulnerable to aggro? 6 1-mana removal spells and a pair of board wipes should be enough for you.
Are you certain on Condescend? It always felt like a blank when I tested it. Early game, I never had the mana to effectively cast it, late game they had so much mana it was essentially a dead card. The scry effect is nice, but I wouldn't run it over Mana Leak or Rune Snag.
How is Pact of Negation working out for you? I hate running it in Control decks for the simple fact that I'm not a Combo deck, and if it's in my opening hand I might as well mulligan. Drawing into it before turn 5 is even worse, and I hate having to tap out on my turn just to prevent them from doing something. You are a control deck, not combo. If you can't just win with a free counterspell, I see no reason to run it.
However, I like to run 3 sweepers, but the Damnation in there is for having a near universal solution to threats
As for Condescend, I feel like it is much like Mana Leak or Rune Snag, as it is good in early game (I almost always leave 2 mana open turn 2 to counter something). Also, I think the Scry 2 is more important now as we lost Preordain and Ponder to smooth out our draws.
I see your point for Pact of Negation, it was there as an experiment, I have yet to draw/tutor for it. but I think it can come in handy in counter wars where the combo player is going off and you need that extra counter to win. Times like these can be the deciding factor or winning or losing. However I see your point in drawing it early is really bad, but thats why I only have 1 :D. Also, I put in 2 Mystical Teachings since Preordain got banned, so I could teachings out my pact and counter during emergencies (again, untested)
However, I like to run 3 sweepers, but the Damnation in there is for having a near universal solution to threats
As for Condescend, I feel like it is much like Mana Leak or Rune Snag, as it is good in early game (I almost always leave 2 mana open turn 2 to counter something). Also, I think the Scry 2 is more important now as we lost Preordain and Ponder to smooth out our draws.
I see your point for Pact of Negation, it was there as an experiment, I have yet to draw/tutor for it. but I think it can come in handy in counter wars where the combo player is going off and you need that extra counter to win. Times like these can be the deciding factor or winning or losing. However I see your point in drawing it early is really bad, but thats why I only have 1 :D. Also, I put in 2 Mystical Teachings since Preordain got banned, so I could teachings out my pact and counter during emergencies (again, untested)
Why would you run 2 Bolts? Run 4 or 0, that's basically all there is to it. It's only good early game and is a dead topdeck against a lot of decks. I've elected to just cut them completely in favor of Path and Terminate.
Condescend isn't quite like Mana Leak or Rune Snag at any point. It's not as emphatic of a permission spell in the early game (what if they play a 1 drop on turn 2? etc), nor does it really matter late game. The Scry 2 is moot. I've found Think Twice to be enough in terms of digging power. If you're desperate for that kind of draw smoothing, run something like Sleight of Hand or Serum Visions.
Argentum used to run Teachings in his deck. That was a really big point of contention for a good portion of this thread, you can go back and see the arguments for and against it. I won't start the flame war that it was back up, but I generally didn't see the point in running an Instant/Flash tutor when my trademark spell was Sorcery speed.
Why would you run 2 Bolts? Run 4 or 0, that's basically all there is to it. It's only good early game and is a dead topdeck against a lot of decks. I've elected to just cut them completely in favor of Path and Terminate.
Condescend isn't quite like Mana Leak or Rune Snag at any point. It's not as emphatic of a permission spell in the early game (what if they play a 1 drop on turn 2? etc), nor does it really matter late game. The Scry 2 is moot. I've found Think Twice to be enough in terms of digging power. If you're desperate for that kind of draw smoothing, run something like Sleight of Hand or Serum Visions.
Argentum used to run Teachings in his deck. That was a really big point of contention for a good portion of this thread, you can go back and see the arguments for and against it. I won't start the flame war that it was back up, but I generally didn't see the point in running an Instant/Flash tutor when my trademark spell was Sorcery speed.
Lightning bolt used to be a bit better, however I don't believe it necessary now. I will be making an updated list here soon, with card explanation and new match up analysis.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Fair enough.
Honestly, though, I don't know if either are even worth the space (they don't do much vs. combo). I might just run more Cliques.
Thanks to Nezumi for the banner!
Clique + Cruel might just end up being my main win condition.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
I agree. Right now I run three Cliques and I wouldn't run any less; it's easily one of the best cards in the deck (next to Cruel, of course).
How's Batterskull been testing?
Thanks to Nezumi for the banner!
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
What would you side it in against?
Thanks to Nezumi for the banner!
I've also been testing Teachings and Gifts, so I'm not even sure that Cruel Control is the way to go for this format. I'm getting good results with Gifts, so I might not even end up playing 5CC. :/
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Yeah, I'm not sure if Cruel's fit for this format. At least not right now.
Thanks to Nezumi for the banner!
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
think twice isn't much of a slouch.
Our worst matchup has been fixed. Now it is time to brew away.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Is Foresee a good card?
People, Preordain being gone is no big deal to control. Learn to plan ahead, or run Serum Visions or Sleight of Hand or something.
I'm really excited about taking my Fulminator Mages out of the side. Such a sweet feeling.
EDIT: Posting my new mainboard.
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Vivid Creek
3 Island
3 Vivid Marsh
2 Vivid Meadow
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Cascade Bluffs
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
1 Mystic Gate
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Grave Titan
Other Spells (29):
4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
4 Think Twice
4 Rune Snag
3 Path to Exile
3 Terminate
2 Firespout
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
The sideboard is still in the works. A couple cards I'm sure I'll want/am theorycrafting:
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Do we pick up our cards with the right hand, or do we use our left hand?
Really, though, it shouldn't hit the field if you play smart.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
2 Terminate
2 Path to Exile
However, I like to run 3 sweepers, but the Damnation in there is for having a near universal solution to threats
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Lightning bolt used to be a bit better, however I don't believe it necessary now. I will be making an updated list here soon, with card explanation and new match up analysis.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG