In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
here is the list I have been tinkering with for the past month or so. I have been talking with slippy, and haven't taken his advice yet as I wanted to show my list as is. Think twice(s) are probably going to be added in pretty soon
thoughts? slippy suggested volcanic fallout, which will probably happen in place of *** which will also loose a vivid meadow and become a vivid crag. Anyone else have anything?
One of my new list which might be ready for testing.
I like the addition of double negative. I dream of terminating something in reaction to a spell to goad a counter and then double negative the counter and the first spell for a 3 for 2
I like the addition of double negative. I dream of terminating something in reaction to a spell to goad a counter and then double negative the counter and the first spell for a 3 for 2
plus you know cascade and stuff obviously
i wanted to play a 3 mana hard counter and other options were worse. My newest build has actually cut the double negative for something.....i just can't remember what. I will post the updated list once I get a couple of things smoothed out.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Dissipate seems like a better choice for a three-mana hard counter. Past in Flames, Mindslaver, and so forth really are much better exiled than in graveyards.
Or Voidslime, if you've got enough green to support it.
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When you peer long enough through the depths, the depths peer also through you.
Dissipate seems like a better choice for a three-mana hard counter. Past in Flames, Mindslaver, and so forth really are much better exiled than in graveyards.
Or Voidslime, if you've got enough green to support it.
meh cut it anyways. 3 mana counterspells are way too much. I just wanted a hard counter, but 2 mana is the highest a pure counterspell can be in modern.
so far my biggest issue is drawing counterspells against aggro decks, and removal against storm.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Firespout
1 Wrath of God
4 Mana Leak
2 Cryptic Command
4 Spell Snare
4 Esper Charm
2 Think Twice
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Thrun, The last Troll
1 Batterskull
26 Lands (a little help on the mana base would be nice!)
Side
1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Ancient Grundge
2 Ghostly Prision
1 Torpor Orb
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Terminate
1 Rule of Law
3 Canonist
I made the card choices thinking this deck against Affinity mostly and Splinter Twin.
Spell Snare -- I think is really good atm. Hitting Cranial Plating, Skirge, Overseer, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Tribal Flames, Snapcaster, Pyretic/Desperate Ritual, Ascension, Mana Leak, Remand, Spellskite, etc. You can drop 1/2 on the draw if you like (maybe against Splinter Twin is kinda bad).
E.Explosives -- they are the 3rd Firespout, but I wanted to have another answer to Inkmoth Nexus.
Slaughter Pact -- Lets me kill something big and sweep with Firespout in the same turn or cast esper charm or... etc. Also is really nice with Snapcaster Mage.
Thrun/Batterskull - I wanted 2 finishers that somehow were resilent to spot removal. Also Batterskull+Snap/Thrun, well you get the idea.
I like the deck, I need to test really hard now. The cards at first glance I see myself cutting are 2 Think Twice and 1 copy of Cruel Ultimatum, maybe for 2 Remand 1 Repeal.
No Sideboard yet, and the land base is kind of ad-hoc, any suggestions that go along with this theme would be awesome, I've never played grixis before and have little practical experience as to what works and what doesn't. I'm going to play it as Burning Secrets, but somethings are just better than others, and while I have the cards, I don't necessarily know which ones would work best in this type of deck (my main deck is mono U Merfolk). I can run the numbers, but you can't replace good old fashion real life experience.
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The Problem with the human gene pool is there are no lifeguards
I'm using 4x copies of Glittering Wish in my build. I am going to a PTQ today with my 5color deck. I'll let the forum know how I do, post my results and matches, and decklist. So far, in testing, the highlight of my deck has been:
@Team-Hero, do you run any other creatures in your build besides Havengul Lich? Or do you mainly get him to snitch Tiagos and Meliras from your opponents' yards instead?
@Team-Hero, in what situations have you found yourself Wishing for Lightning Reaver? I can probably figure out when to tutor for each of the other cards, but I can't figure out a deck Reaver would be phenomenal against.
Besides the Fulminator Mage for Tron you're also considering, what do you think of Kitchen Finks (for aggro), Huntmaster of the Fells (for aggro, especially little man aggro), Ajani Vengeant (probably more for aggro again), Bant Charm (for overall), Jund Charm (for aggro and graveyard-based combo), Olivia Voldaren (for Fae/Caw-Blade/Tokens), and Zealous Persecution (as a 2-mana X/1 board wipe) as Glittering Wish targets? (Granted, you look pretty tuned to destroy aggro, and ZP actually seems more like a card you maindeck or board in more than one of to soften the Affinity/Fae/Tokens/Caw-Blade/Empty the Warrens match-ups...)
Lightning Reaver is the fastest clock I can think of that has evasion and is multicolor. This deck goes to time a lot and sometimes you just have to race. I know the card looks sketchy, but through testing, I noticed that my opponent had exhausted a lot of his resources and was unable to deal with a threat 'now'. I needed a big threat to wish for that had to be dealt with by the opponent fast.
Sometimes you just have a Spellskite on board and say "at the end of your turn, I'll add a charge counter to my Coalition Relic(s)", untap, draw, wish for Lightning Reaver. The card gets through a lot of tokens that would block him for ever because of fear. The haste makes him an insane clock. The shock part of him lets him attack a player and zap a planeswalker at end of turn.
If you do the math, he deals as much damage as a 9/x creature would if it didn't have haste. By his third attack, he's dealing 15 damage. So if you ever go to time, and the opponent is at 15 or less life, I'd wish for him over almost anything else.
Oh, you guys haven't lived until you start using the Havengul Lich to reanimate-cast opponent's Bloodbraid Elf. The Lich provides a powerful card advantage engine because he doesn't exile the creatures and its used off the opponent's graveyard. A lot of decks aren't designed to handle their own creatures. I imagine him more as "all creatures in gaveyards are in your hand", that's some serious draw power. Once I cast the Lich, I begin to fill my hand up because I just stop casting spells from my hand and squeeze that graveyard advantage. If they ever get rid of the Lich turns later, your so far ahead in card advantage, your equiped to deal with almost anything they muster back up.
@the_gert, you appear to be missing 5 cards from your maindeck. I'd make them all lands, as 20 lands is definitely not enough for this archetype. Maybe 4 Vivid lands (I've found 10 of them is a pretty good number to support Reflecting Pool) and a Creeping Tar Pit (in a threat-light deck, manlands win games).
Also, I'm still waiting for Team-Hero's decklist, so I whipped up a deck like his/hers and pitted it against myself on Cockatrice:
Reasoning for sideboard choices and things I discovered about this deck through playtesting:
Especially if most or all of your sideboard is consumed by a wishboard, you basically have to build this deck to have decent Game 1s (and Games 2-3s) against everything.
Due to Glittering Wish's slow nature, practically everything in the wishboard needs to be an absolute haymaker, swinging match-ups significantly in your favour. This is why I tested and discarded Kitchen Finks, Huntmaster of the Fells, and Rise//Fall (in the Castigate slot). Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is quite possibly the last remnant of the old thinking philosophy; he should cream control and help stabilize against Jund, but he's pretty close to being cut.
Instant-speed board wipes are awesome. I'm not sure Zealous Persecution has to be there (but quick ways to screw Affinity help), but I initially put Jund Charm in the board as graveyard hate but that Charm has been proving itself and more as a board wipe. It's definitely staying in the wishboard.
The Wilt-Leaf Liege trick against Liliana of the Veil and Blightning is good only if you stuff it in your maindeck or board it in. I tested it and ditched it; I never had a chance to discard it after Wishing for it.
Cruel Ultimatum basically seals the game against all match-ups, which is why it stays in the wishboard, but sometimes you need to close out the game fast and you don't have 7 mana. Thus, having a fast clock that's 5 mana or less in the wishboard is a must. Team-Hero prefers Lightning Reaver; I prefer Geist of Saint Traft. He's cheaper and he leaves removal rotting in hand. Reaver may be an evasive 3-turn clock, but Traft is a hexproof 4-turn clock, and Traft becomes the faster clock if Reaver basically loses Haste (due to not being able to cast it the same turn you Wish for it). Traft also lets you leave all sorts of mana up.
Like Team-Hero said in passing, Spellskite needs to be in your 60 if you expect Havengul Lich to survive long enough to turn into a cheaper Sheoldred, Whispering One. Untap with the Lich and you likely win; the key is untapping with it.
Speaking of Spellskite, that's the only way Realm Razer is going to survive long enough against Tron to win the game. Fulminator Mage was still not enough Tron hate (it was rare that I got the Fulminator Mage loop going, and one LD is not good enough when they can still play Fatty-Rites and Through the Breach), so I stuck the Razer in and had it get Pathed a ton without 'Skite to back it up. Even then, it got Pyroclasm'd once.
Thanks to Havengul Lich, this deck actually is about 50/50 against Melira Pod (Game 1, at least). Melira Pod usually rips Teachings a new one due to having a very solid beatdown plan against them, so that okay match-up is good news for this build.
Thought Hemorrhage basically wins the game against Exarch Twin. Don't leave home without it.
Speaking of Thought Hemorrhage, this deck basically wins Game 1 against Exarch Twin because it attacks the deck from an unorthodox angle. First comes discard, then comes a spell they cannot Dispel, cannot Remand forever, cannot redirect to Spellskite, and basically have to Spell Pierce (if they run it). Wish aggressively for that card against Exarch Twin and you will win.
Maelstrom Pulse's main job is to kill planeswalkers, but it kills fields full of tokens in a pinch.
Fulminator Mage also happens to kill manlands against Jund (they survive sorcery-speed board wipes and the instant-speed ones in the wishboard), so it's useful outside of the Tron match-up.
Bant Charm is mainly there so Iona naming black doesn't entirely screw the current build over.
I have considered adding Voidslime to the wishboard to try to cream UR Storm. Granted, they'll always see it coming, and I'm not entirely sure whether they can play around it in time.
I've tried Crime//Punishment before, but I always found it wiped out too few things. I might try it again, though.
Havengul Lich blows against non-creature-based combo (Exarch Twin counts as non-creature based--you're not entirely beating them up with a discarded Pestermite), as you're not recurring much against them. I have been considering Dralnu, Lich Lord in the wishboard for the match-ups where Lich blows. Then again, the wishboard is getting tighter and tighter...
Two cards 5cc Glittering Wish Control really wants to be Modern-legal are Vindicate and Pernicious Deed. Pernicious Deed would be awesome as the generalist board wipe, while Vindicate would allow me to free up one slot in the wishboard by doing both Maelstrom Pulse's and Fulminator Mage's jobs.
Team-Hero: Also second would like to see your list.
I think your wishboard could use some work though. I think you have too much utility there, which isn't suited for the sorcery speed nature of Glittering Wish.
Off the top of my head, I think you could definitely cut Oona, Terminate, Sorin, Trygon, and Castigate.
Cards I think you could definitely include are:
Wheel of Sun and Moon - Project Melira, Life from the Loam and similar dredge strategies.
Broodmate Dragon - I think it's a better kill mechanism than the alternatives.
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
[31 other spells]
4 Path to Exile
4 Desperate Ravings
4 Esper Charm
4 Mana Leak
2 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Cryptic Command
2 Mystical Teachings
2 Negate
2 Lightning Helix
2 Terminate
1 Double Negative
1 Consume the Meek
1 Volcanic Fallout
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Vivid Creek
3 Vivid Crag
3 Vivid Marsh
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mountain
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Combust
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Spell Pierce
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Smother
This is basic and untested FWIW
Jund
-2 negate
+1 smother
+1 baneslayer angel
Zoo
-2 negate
-1 double negative
-1 volcanic fallout
+2 timely reinforcements
+1 smother
+1 baneslayer angel
Boros
-2 cruel ultimatum
-2 negate
-1 double negative
+2 timely reinforcements
+1 volcanic fallout
+1 smother
+1 baneslayer angel
affinity
-2 negate
-2 cruel ultimatum
-1 double negative
-1 cryptic command
+1 smother
+1 volcanic fallout
+3 ancient grudge
+1 BSA
twin
+3 combust
+2 spell pierce
+1 smother
-2 lightning helix
-1 volcanic fallout
-1 sphinx of jwar isle
-1 consume the meek
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
1x iona, shield of emeria
1x consume the meek
3x cryptic command
4x esper charm
1x gifts ungiven
3x lightning helix (love this card right now, especially with boros on the rise)
1x mindbreak trap (this is old tech, gonna change)
3x mystical teachings
3x path to exile
4x rune snag (keep going back and forth on this and leak)
1x surgical extraction
1x terminate
2x cruel ultimatum (possibly a WSZ, been testing)
1x unburial rites
1x wrath of god
4x scalding tarn
1x steam vents
1x sacred foundry
1x watery grave
1x hallowed fountain
1x mystic gate
3x creeping tar pit
1x sunken ruins
1x vivid crag
4x vivid creek
2x vivid meadow
1x vivid marsh (this probably needs to be a non-cipt land)
2x island
1x grave titan
3x ancient grudge
1x echoing truth
1x lightning helix
1x rest for the weary
3x spell pierce
3x spell snare
1x sudden death
1x surgical extraction
thoughts? slippy suggested volcanic fallout, which will probably happen in place of *** which will also loose a vivid meadow and become a vivid crag. Anyone else have anything?
I like the addition of double negative. I dream of terminating something in reaction to a spell to goad a counter and then double negative the counter and the first spell for a 3 for 2
plus you know cascade and stuff obviously
i wanted to play a 3 mana hard counter and other options were worse. My newest build has actually cut the double negative for something.....i just can't remember what. I will post the updated list once I get a couple of things smoothed out.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Or Voidslime, if you've got enough green to support it.
meh cut it anyways. 3 mana counterspells are way too much. I just wanted a hard counter, but 2 mana is the highest a pure counterspell can be in modern.
so far my biggest issue is drawing counterspells against aggro decks, and removal against storm.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
4 Path to Exile
1 Terminate
1 Smother
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Firespout
1 Wrath of God
4 Mana Leak
2 Cryptic Command
4 Spell Snare
4 Esper Charm
2 Think Twice
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Thrun, The last Troll
1 Batterskull
26 Lands (a little help on the mana base would be nice!)
Side
1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Ancient Grundge
2 Ghostly Prision
1 Torpor Orb
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Terminate
1 Rule of Law
3 Canonist
I made the card choices thinking this deck against Affinity mostly and Splinter Twin.
Spell Snare -- I think is really good atm. Hitting Cranial Plating, Skirge, Overseer, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Tribal Flames, Snapcaster, Pyretic/Desperate Ritual, Ascension, Mana Leak, Remand, Spellskite, etc. You can drop 1/2 on the draw if you like (maybe against Splinter Twin is kinda bad).
E.Explosives -- they are the 3rd Firespout, but I wanted to have another answer to Inkmoth Nexus.
Slaughter Pact -- Lets me kill something big and sweep with Firespout in the same turn or cast esper charm or... etc. Also is really nice with Snapcaster Mage.
Thrun/Batterskull - I wanted 2 finishers that somehow were resilent to spot removal. Also Batterskull+Snap/Thrun, well you get the idea.
I like the deck, I need to test really hard now. The cards at first glance I see myself cutting are 2 Think Twice and 1 copy of Cruel Ultimatum, maybe for 2 Remand 1 Repeal.
That's what led me to run Bant Charm, though it ended up a singleton because as you say, three mana's a lot.
Also Retrace with, Burning Vengeance and Secrets of the Dead is AMAZING... just sayin'
4 Snapcaster Mage
Instants:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
3 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
3 Mana Leak
2 Cryptic Command
4 Raven's Crime
2 Devil's Play
Enchantments:
3 Secrets of the Dead
3 Burning Vengeance
Land:
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
2 Cascade Bluffs
1 Sunken Ruin
4 Island
3 Mountain
3 Swamp
No Sideboard yet, and the land base is kind of ad-hoc, any suggestions that go along with this theme would be awesome, I've never played grixis before and have little practical experience as to what works and what doesn't. I'm going to play it as Burning Secrets, but somethings are just better than others, and while I have the cards, I don't necessarily know which ones would work best in this type of deck (my main deck is mono U Merfolk). I can run the numbers, but you can't replace good old fashion real life experience.
Standard: In Transition
Modern: RG Urzatron
Legacy: W Mighty Quinn
UW Stoneblade
Vintage: GWU "Classic" Angel Oath
GW Enchantress
The format is fast so we are going to need fast spells
These guys allow for devastating card advantage and later game reach.
Thoughts on this shell w/o Delver?
I'm using 4x copies of Glittering Wish in my build. I am going to a PTQ today with my 5color deck. I'll let the forum know how I do, post my results and matches, and decklist. So far, in testing, the highlight of my deck has been:
4x Glittering Wish
4x Coalition Relic
3x Havengul Lich (+1 in the sideboard, he's THAT good)
4x Dismember
3x Damnation
Banner creator: mchief111 from Rising Studios [Forum-Website]
What other Glittering Wish targets do you run besides the 4th Lich? Maelstrom Pulse? Bant Charm? Planeswalkers?
I'm curious to see your full decklist!
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Realm Razer
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Cruel Ultimatum
Terminate
Maelstrom Pulse
Trygon Predator
Fracturing Gust
Lightning Reaver
Firespout
Havengul Lich
Castigate
Identity Crisis
Thought Hemorrhage
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Decklist coming soon.
Banner creator: mchief111 from Rising Studios [Forum-Website]
Besides the Fulminator Mage for Tron you're also considering, what do you think of Kitchen Finks (for aggro), Huntmaster of the Fells (for aggro, especially little man aggro), Ajani Vengeant (probably more for aggro again), Bant Charm (for overall), Jund Charm (for aggro and graveyard-based combo), Olivia Voldaren (for Fae/Caw-Blade/Tokens), and Zealous Persecution (as a 2-mana X/1 board wipe) as Glittering Wish targets? (Granted, you look pretty tuned to destroy aggro, and ZP actually seems more like a card you maindeck or board in more than one of to soften the Affinity/Fae/Tokens/Caw-Blade/Empty the Warrens match-ups...)
Sometimes you just have a Spellskite on board and say "at the end of your turn, I'll add a charge counter to my Coalition Relic(s)", untap, draw, wish for Lightning Reaver. The card gets through a lot of tokens that would block him for ever because of fear. The haste makes him an insane clock. The shock part of him lets him attack a player and zap a planeswalker at end of turn.
If you do the math, he deals as much damage as a 9/x creature would if it didn't have haste. By his third attack, he's dealing 15 damage. So if you ever go to time, and the opponent is at 15 or less life, I'd wish for him over almost anything else.
Although, I do love me some Kitchen Finks, Ajani Vengeant, and Olivia Voldaren.
Oh, you guys haven't lived until you start using the Havengul Lich to reanimate-cast opponent's Bloodbraid Elf. The Lich provides a powerful card advantage engine because he doesn't exile the creatures and its used off the opponent's graveyard. A lot of decks aren't designed to handle their own creatures. I imagine him more as "all creatures in gaveyards are in your hand", that's some serious draw power. Once I cast the Lich, I begin to fill my hand up because I just stop casting spells from my hand and squeeze that graveyard advantage. If they ever get rid of the Lich turns later, your so far ahead in card advantage, your equiped to deal with almost anything they muster back up.
Banner creator: mchief111 from Rising Studios [Forum-Website]
Also, I'm still waiting for Team-Hero's decklist, so I whipped up a deck like his/hers and pitted it against myself on Cockatrice:
4 Reflecting Pool
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Vivid Crag
3 Vivid Creek
4 Vivid Marsh
1 Vivid Meadow
4 Marsh Flats
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Havengul Lich
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Shriekmaw
2 Spellskite
Spells
4 Glittering Wish
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Rise // Fall
2 Mana Leak
4 Dismember
3 Damnation
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Esper Charm
1 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Firespout
1 Havengul Lich
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Thought Hemorrhage
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Jund Charm
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Culling Sun
1 Realm Razer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bant Charm
Reasoning for sideboard choices and things I discovered about this deck through playtesting:
I think your wishboard could use some work though. I think you have too much utility there, which isn't suited for the sorcery speed nature of Glittering Wish.
Off the top of my head, I think you could definitely cut Oona, Terminate, Sorin, Trygon, and Castigate.
Cards I think you could definitely include are:
Wheel of Sun and Moon - Project Melira, Life from the Loam and similar dredge strategies.
Broodmate Dragon - I think it's a better kill mechanism than the alternatives.
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV - I don't see anything similar 'auto-win' against combo strategies.
Finks is probably a good fit as it fits naturally in the curve. I imagine you are playing with Goyfs in the main too?