He summarized it. T1 fetch, dual, nacatl. T2 opponent drops a land. t3 dual, attack with nacatl, nacatl eats fire, you drop tarmo.
So in your book the common play for someone running red+bolt in modern, which means they are 99% of the time a zoo deck, is going to be land go waiting to bolt a creature instead of their own Nacatl/ape/lion/guide/etc to establish board presance and threaten their own clock.
I would love to face the zoo people you guys are player, could always use free wins.
People don't want to admit it but being vanilla matters. Turn 1 is when you drop your vanilla beaters, and even that is debatable now with Stromkirk Noble and Grim Lavamancer running around, or you drop a mana accelerator. Turn 2 you should be seeing trample/flying/can't be blocked by 2 or more/etc etc effects so you can get in damage and not get chump block stalled or be forced to waste removal simply to get damage through.
If your Goyf is chewing through blockers the entire early game you are gaining significant card and board advantage, keeping tempo on your side of the table as the beatdown player, and can likely make a solid follow up play on the back of the Goyf that is winning you the game. 4/5s for 2 mana don't need to have trample or evasion, they'll take over play on their own terms unless they are removed, and such an efficient creature will cost you so little in terms of tempo if it is removed. Goblin Guide has no evasion and a disadvantage and is one of the best 1 drops of all time, and Goyf easily outclasses it in terms of size most of the times when you're likely to cast a Goyf; that does not make either Goyf or Goblin Guide bad, since they are both amazing creatures for what they cost and the role they fill. Not every good creature in Magic has done something on top of attacking and blocking, and Goyf certainly does not need any help in those regards.
If your Goyf is chewing through blockers the entire early game you are gaining significant card and board advantage, keeping tempo on your side of the table as the beatdown player, and can likely make a solid follow up play on the back of the Goyf that is winning you the game. 4/5s for 2 mana don't need to have trample or evasion, they'll take over play on their own terms unless they are removed, and such an efficient creature will cost you so little in terms of tempo if it is removed. Goblin Guide has no evasion and a disadvantage and is one of the best 1 drops of all time, and Goyf easily outclasses it in terms of size most of the times when you're likely to cast a Goyf; that does not make either Goyf or Goblin Guide bad, since they are both amazing creatures for what they cost and the role they fill. Not every good creature in Magic has done something on top of attacking and blocking, and Goyf certainly does not need any help in those regards.
So back in Ravnica/time spiral when goyfs would be chumped all day by Augur of Skulls/Wall of Roots/etc and doing little to no good for you, putting on no pressure doing no damage and just sitting around looking silly, you classified that as "winning the game."
Hell even in modern he's encountering Wall of Roots/overgrown battlements running around and even a Thrun here and there when Green Sun was around, but he was definatly winning those games as well. Although I guess I will take some fault as say "chump block" does imply that he's killing through creatures so fair enough.
That's the problem with vanilla creatures they don't require answers, they don't really even require respect, all they require is that you continue to play the game the way you always have been. Every single time I have seen someone lose to a goyf it has been because they overestimated it and made a rather silly play like tossing away a Path to Exile on a 4/5 goyf when they had a Knight of the Reliquary in their hand with 3 fetchlands in the graveyard.
To date the only deck I've seen actually play goyf and it actually strike me as a deck he belonged in was goyf-rack, and that was only because in that type of deck you actually need cheap effective beaters with easy mana costs so you can apply pressure on top of the rack/discard effects and quick/easy recovery after smallpox. Even then that deck would win and lose on the card advantage of Dark Confidant more than it would goyf power/toughness/mana cost.
Tarmogoyf is the most efficient beater in magic, end of story. He gets bigger simply by actually playing the game. He gives aggro decks a quick a clock as well as giving control a solid defender along with being a cheap win condition. So basically every aggro deck in Green wants him and every control deck with green wants him since he fills such a key role in both.
And most of the time Goyf will beat eating everything that jumps in his path since its not even a little bit hard to get to a 4/5 or even 5/6. There is a reason why Pridemage/Hierarch are so awesome and thats because they win you goyf wars.
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Tarmogoyf is the most efficient beater in magic, end of story. He gets bigger simply by actually playing the game. He gives aggro decks a quick a clock as well as giving control a solid defender along with being a cheap win condition. So basically every aggro deck in Green wants him and every control deck with green wants him since he fills such a key role in both.
And most of the time Goyf will beat eating everything that jumps in his path since its not even a little bit hard to get to a 4/5 or even 5/6. There is a reason why Pridemage/Hierarch are so awesome and thats because they win you goyf wars.
Love this argument, "he's efficient end of discussion" such a great way to show you know how to clearly debate and discuss a card. Sorry but I get more milage out of a Grim Lavamancers than I do goyfs. Considering he let's me get damage through blockers as well as finish off/kill creatures for nothing more than cards I have already used it's rather easy to see why.
As far as Pridemage/Hierarchs no they are not good because of goyf wars, they are good because 1 gives you a turn 3 Knight of the Reliquary/mana fixing and provides a buff for other creatures just by sitting there. Pridemage is good because he is a main deckable answer to artifacts and enchantments that doens't throw off your curve or take away from your main strategy of playing cheap creatures. They are good because of their all around utility and versatilty, something goyf does not have, not because of goyf himself.
Love this argument, "he's efficient end of discussion" such a great way to show you know how to clearly debate and discuss a card. Sorry but I get more milage out of a Grim Lavamancers than I do goyfs. Considering he let's me get damage through blockers as well as finish off/kill creatures for nothing more than cards I have already used it's rather easy to see why.
As far as Pridemage/Hierarchs no they are not good because of goyf wars, they are good because 1 gives you a turn 3 Knight of the Reliquary/mana fixing and provides a buff for other creatures just by sitting there. Pridemage is good because he is a main deckable answer to artifacts and enchantments that doens't throw off your curve or take away from your main strategy of playing cheap creatures. They are good because of their all around utility and versatilty, something goyf does not have, not because of goyf himself.
Explain to me why Tarmogoyf is the premier aggro creature and the premier control finisher then? Sure Grim Lavamancer can get damage past blockers and kill creatures but Goyf eats 99% of the blockers in the format anyways. A Tarmogoyf unanswered wins games incredibly quickly since he's a huge beater and he doesn't require any investment past the initially 2 mana. I don't see a reason not to be running him in any green deck thats not a combo deck because he's just that good. Sure he's a vanilla creature but the simple fact that he's extremely cheap, splashable, and he's huge makes him quite a formidable threat.
As for Pridemage/Hierarch it is true that they do have additional utility for which they are played but do you think they would be nearly as good without exalted? Being able to beat through your opponents Goyfs during Goyf wars is huge and can win you games.
At the end of the day Tarmogoyf is the best beater ever printed and that's why he's a staple in many tier 1 archetypes in every format that he's legal in. But if you disagree please tell me a creature that's splashable, cheap, and efficient like Tarmogoyf.
Explain to me why Tarmogoyf is the premier aggro creature and the premier control finisher then? Sure Grim Lavamancer can get damage past blockers and kill creatures but Goyf eats 99% of the blockers in the format anyways. A Tarmogoyf unanswered wins games incredibly quickly since he's a huge beater and he doesn't require any investment past the initially 2 mana. I don't see a reason not to be running him in any green deck thats not a combo deck because he's just that good. Sure he's a vanilla creature but the simple fact that he's extremely cheap, splashable, and he's huge makes him quite a formidable threat.
As for Pridemage/Hierarch it is true that they do have additional utility for which they are played but do you think they would be nearly as good without exalted? Being able to beat through your opponents Goyfs during Goyf wars is huge and can win you games.
At the end of the day Tarmogoyf is the best beater ever printed and that's why he's a staple in many tier 1 archetypes in every format that he's legal in. But if you disagree please tell me a creature that's splashable, cheap, and efficient like Tarmogoyf.
Premier Control finisher? Guess it's easy to be a finish of an archtype that doesn't currently exist in this format.
Premier Aggro finisher, you might want to look again zoo builds like the one that got 2nd place at Philly it was running 4 Knight of the Reliquary and 2 Elspeth Knight-Errant. Other variants running Punishing Fire get a third option to push for the final points of damage, although I wouldn't call it a finisher. Goyf may be efficient but Knight provides the back bone of the deck in the mid-late game with it's land thinning giving you better chances of drawing action and getting even bigger than goyf in the process, while Elspeth makes other creatures into finishers or just makes you an army. Sorry but again goyf isn't the finisher.
Really a goyf unanswered wins game? I find this rather hard to believe when my opponents can have multiple goyfs out for long periods of time against a number of decks I run and they can't seem to kill me. As I said earlier goyf doesn't require an answer he just requires you to continue to play your game and not treat him any different than you would any other vanilla beater no matter what he can become that is still all he is. It doesn't matter how splashable he is, it doesn't matter how efficient he is the only way he is winning you anything is if your opponent commits more to him than he should, and in that regard his level of ability on the board is a result of the undue respect people give him.
Most efficient beater ever printed? Don't think I would argue that. Best beater ever printed? Not even close. Knight of the Reliquary tops him alone, and I would even bank on cards like Mistbind Clique, Vendilion Clique, the Titans, Ranger of Eos, etc etc as better beaters because they are more than just "good beaters."
Premier Control finisher? Guess it's easy to be a finish of an archtype that doesn't currently exist in this format.
Premier Aggro finisher, you might want to look again zoo builds like the one that got 2nd place at Philly it was running 4 Knight of the Reliquary and 2 Elspeth Knight-Errant. Other variants running Punishing Fire get a third option to push for the final points of damage, although I wouldn't call it a finisher. Goyf may be efficient but Knight provides the back bone of the deck in the mid-late game with it's land thinning giving you better chances of drawing action and getting even bigger than goyf in the process, while Elspeth makes other creatures into finishers or just makes you an army. Sorry but again goyf isn't the finisher.
Really a goyf unanswered wins game? I find this rather hard to believe when my opponents can have multiple goyfs out for long periods of time against a number of decks I run and they can't seem to kill me. As I said earlier goyf doesn't require an answer he just requires you to continue to play your game and not treat him any different than you would any other vanilla beater no matter what he can become that is still all he is. It doesn't matter how splashable he is, it doesn't matter how efficient he is the only way he is winning you anything is if your opponent commits more to him than he should, and in that regard his level of ability on the board is a result of the undue respect people give him.
Most efficient beater ever printed? Don't think I would argue that. Best beater ever printed? Not even close. Knight of the Reliquary tops him alone, and I would even bank on cards like Mistbind Clique, Vendilion Clique, the Titans, Ranger of Eos, etc etc as better beaters because they are more than just "good beaters."
Where did I say Aggro finisher? Goyf is a better beater in general than KotR because he doesn't require as much work and he goes in more decks than KotR does. Just stop and look at Legacy for a second, cards have to be the best of the best to make the cut in Legacy and he's not only good enough, he makes decks splash green just for him. So just tell me, how can a "vanilla" creature not only make the cut but be a format defining card in every format he's in. Also how does beating for 4 a turn not win you the game?
Also out of curiosity, did you play during old Extended and do you/have you played Legacy?
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Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Where did I say Aggro finisher? Goyf is a better beater in general than KotR because he doesn't require as much work and he goes in more decks than KotR does. Just stop and look at Legacy for a second, cards have to be the best of the best to make the cut in Legacy and he's not only good enough, he makes decks splash green just for him. So just tell me, how can a "vanilla" creature not only make the cut but be a format defining card in every format he's in. Also how does beating for 4 a turn not win you the game?
Also out of curiosity, did you play during old Extended and do you/have you played Legacy?
Strange decklists of the top 8 of the nationals only has him in NO-RUG, which is about Natural Order he get's played because he's a cheap card to sac for the game winning threat Progenitus, a single UGB control deck, and zoo. He didn't make the cut in Dredge, a deck that is running a lot of green, or Landstill(although Stoneforge and Vendilion Clique did), didn't make the cut in Reanimator, didn't make the cut in Merfolk. So he made the cut in 4 decks, 2 of which where the same deck, that's so format warping. If you want format warping I suggest you look at mental misstep in legacy or what Jace/Stoneforge did to standard.
Beating for 4 a turn doesn't win you the game because it doesn't get through, how have you been missing this it's been the entire point of my arguments. Vanilla beater does not get damage through because of a number of issues I have already named where a creature with trample/evasion/activated abilities/etc can actually get damage through. Please read.
Strange decklists of the top 8 of the nationals only has him in NO-RUG, which is about Natural Order he get's played because he's a cheap card to sac for the game winning threat Progenitus, a single UGB control deck, and zoo. He didn't make the cut in Dredge, a deck that is running a lot of green, or Landstill(although Stoneforge and Vendilion Clique did), didn't make the cut in Reanimator, didn't make the cut in Merfolk. So he made the cut in 4 decks, 2 of which where the same deck, that's so format warping. If you want format warping I suggest you look at mental misstep in legacy or what Jace/Stoneforge did to standard.
Beating for 4 a turn doesn't win you the game because it doesn't get through, how have you been missing this it's been the entire point of my arguments. Vanilla beater does not get damage through because of a number of issues I have already named where a creature with trample/evasion/activated abilities/etc can actually get damage through. Please read.
I said format defining. Please Read.
Also clearly you didn't play Legacy when people figured out that Goyf was amazing, combo decks were splashing for him, merfolks were splashing for him, goblins were splashing for him, pretty much every deck was splashing for him because he's just that good. Also his absence in Legacy has mainly been due to MM which made SFM really powerful since it became easier to protect. Expect to see a lot more of him soon with Zoo getting better, Countertop coming back and Landstill needing a more reliable threat.
And hey what do you know I did read you, but if you have blockers for Tarmogoyf (there aren't many playable creatures which can block him and live) then you have an answer! So if you have no answers then you must not have blockers and thus are taking 4 a turn.
Tarmogoyf is good enough to see tier 1 play in every format he's been legal in (including vintage) so I don't see how you can say he's not that good. In fact I'd say he's the second best creature in Modern.
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Also clearly you didn't play Legacy when people figured out that Goyf was amazing, combo decks were splashing for him, merfolks were splashing for him, goblins were splashing for him, pretty much every deck was splashing for him because he's just that good. Also his absence in Legacy has mainly been due to MM which made SFM really powerful since it became easier to protect. Expect to see a lot more of him soon with Zoo getting better, Countertop coming back and Landstill needing a more reliable threat.
And hey what do you know I did read you, but if you have blockers for Tarmogoyf (there aren't many playable creatures which can block him and live) then you have an answer! So if you have no answers then you must not have blockers and thus are taking 4 a turn.
Tarmogoyf is good enough to see tier 1 play in every format he's been legal in (including vintage) so I don't see how you can say he's not that good. In fact I'd say he's the second best creature in Modern.
Not very format defining either considering aside for zoo the decks he's ran in are winning more off Tombstalker, Jace, or Progenius, the one exception being the zoo deck and that is winning off of several creatures not just goyf.
As far as when he first came out, people at first hated him and he was a junk rare. Then someone made him work and everyone jumped on his bandwagon and he blew up as a result decks that had no valid, or viable reason to splash him started splashing him until people learned he didn't belong and wasn't worth it. As a result said splashing stopped and it's why again you only see 4 decks with him 2 of which are the same deck and they plan on sacing him not winning with him, a control deck that might eek out a win with him but will win with better options, such as stalker and Jace.
I can say he's not that good because he simply isn't. As I said earlier the only time he does anything relevant is when the person playing against him gives him far more respect than he deserves and throws away a card they need for something else far more threatening and far more relevant.
Not very format defining either considering aside for zoo the decks he's ran in are winning more off Tombstalker, Jace, or Progenius, the one exception being the zoo deck and that is winning off of several creatures not just goyf.
As far as when he first came out, people at first hated him and he was a junk rare. Then someone made him work and everyone jumped on his bandwagon and he blew up as a result decks that had no valid, or viable reason to splash him started splashing him until people learned he didn't belong and wasn't worth it. As a result said splashing stopped and it's why again you only see 4 decks with him 2 of which are the same deck and they plan on sacing him not winning with him, a control deck that might eek out a win with him but will win with better options, such as stalker and Jace.
I can say he's not that good because he simply isn't. As I said earlier the only time he does anything relevant is when the person playing against him gives him far more respect than he deserves and throws away a card they need for something else far more threatening and far more relevant.
last time I checked jace wasn't good enough in this format and then got banned to keep the fear mongers off of their QQ sessions.
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Also clearly you didn't play Legacy when people figured out that Goyf was amazing, combo decks were splashing for him, merfolks were splashing for him, goblins were splashing for him, pretty much every deck was splashing for him because he's just that good. Also his absence in Legacy has mainly been due to MM which made SFM really powerful since it became easier to protect. Expect to see a lot more of him soon with Zoo getting better, Countertop coming back and Landstill needing a more reliable threat.
And hey what do you know I did read you, but if you have blockers for Tarmogoyf (there aren't many playable creatures which can block him and live) then you have an answer! So if you have no answers then you must not have blockers and thus are taking 4 a turn.
Tarmogoyf is good enough to see tier 1 play in every format he's been legal in (including vintage) so I don't see how you can say he's not that good. In fact I'd say he's the second best creature in Modern.
I agree with all of this, except the second best. Seriously, what is better than Goyf in Modern and Legacy? Even in an environment favorable to SFM, Goyf was more played.
Dark Confidant is cool and all, but he's really only better in Vintage. The spells in Modern are too weak and combined with the shocklands he will never be insane. I could see an argument for KoTR but it is so much easier to splash colors with Goyf, KoTR screws with your mana base too much. Definitely the best 3 drop ever, but that's a bit different.
Not very format defining either considering aside for zoo the decks he's ran in are winning more off Tombstalker, Jace, or Progenius, the one exception being the zoo deck and that is winning off of several creatures not just goyf.
As far as when he first came out, people at first hated him and he was a junk rare. Then someone made him work and everyone jumped on his bandwagon and he blew up as a result decks that had no valid, or viable reason to splash him started splashing him until people learned he didn't belong and wasn't worth it. As a result said splashing stopped and it's why again you only see 4 decks with him 2 of which are the same deck and they plan on sacing him not winning with him, a control deck that might eek out a win with him but will win with better options, such as stalker and Jace.
I can say he's not that good because he simply isn't. As I said earlier the only time he does anything relevant is when the person playing against him gives him far more respect than he deserves and throws away a card they need for something else far more threatening and far more relevant.
You're talking about a format that was hugely warped by Mental Misstep that cards like Jace and SFM where a lot more powerful since they were easier to protect and that just isn't the case anymore so now Tarmogoyf is going to come back since he's a a threat that doesn't really need to be protected to be good.
Tarmogoyf makes the cut in Vintage for christ sake! How many just plain beaters are there in vintage besides Tarmogoyf? None. Tarmogoyf is just that good, he's the cheap, efficient, and he's a huge threat that can take over games by himself since he's so huge.
Also I'd like to point out that there have been Zoo decks that have made top8's in Old Extended and Legacy that have played Tarmogoyf and not KotR because he's just the best beater around.
I'll just reinterate what most people have said. Goyf is a HOUSE!
Sorceries: Thoughseize, Raven's Crime, Smallpox, Slieght of Hand, Life from the Loam (are all played) Instants: Mana Leak, Remand, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Doom Blade, Go for the Throat (all played) Enchantments: Splinter Twin, Seismic Assault, and Oblivion Ring are the only 3 I can think of. Artifacts: Affinity is a deck. Swords of are still played. Creatures: alot Lands: Fetchlands, Ghost Quarter, Tec Edge (all are played) Tribal: none PW: Baby Jace, Ajani V, Venser, Gideon (all are played)
There is a plethera of combinations of types that will result in Goyf being a 4/5. I play Assault Loam and he's rarely below a 3/4 when he's on the field.
That being said, it's obvious you can't just throw 4 Goyfs in say a MGA deck. That's like playing Dungrove Elder in a deck w/ 4 forests in it.
You're damn right :P! The only reason why I bring it up is because the deck obviously also runs Goyfs, and can probably create the biggest Goyfs more consistently than any other deck.
Goyf's a really good creature and I don't see the bannings having much effect on him. I think it is a little more hyped up than it should be though, to say that it's format warping in legacy is definitely a stretch. I play a decent amount of legacy and I will say that I'd rather see a goyf hit the table against me than stoneforge, clique, or bob. It's a really good card, but it's not as good as it's made out to be.
Look at maverick, it's a legacy Aggro deck in green that usually runs a single Tarmogoyf. It's actually lost it's spot to Scavenging ooze in some maverick lists. If it were the format defining beater that everyone says it is, why isn't it a 4 of in an aggro deck in it's colours? I'll also add that I haven't seen a maverick list that runs mental misstep to protect stoneforge.
Goyf's a really good creature and I don't see the bannings having much effect on him. I think it is a little more hyped up than it should be though, to say that it's format warping in legacy is definitely a stretch. I play a decent amount of legacy and I will say that I'd rather see a goyf hit the table against me than stoneforge, clique, or bob. It's a really good card, but it's not as good as it's made out to be.
Look at maverick, it's a legacy Aggro deck in green that usually runs a single Tarmogoyf. It's actually lost it's spot to Scavenging ooze in some maverick lists. If it were the format defining beater that everyone says it is, why isn't it a 4 of in an aggro deck in it's colours? I'll also add that I haven't seen a maverick list that runs mental misstep to protect stoneforge.
... lol. Thanks for the heads up about the Legacy format I guess? Can we get back to Modern maybe?
... lol. Thanks for the heads up about the Legacy format I guess? Can we get back to Modern maybe?
I was just responding to the huge argument in this thread about goyf's impact in legacy. They were using it's presence in legacy as an example to why it's so good in other formats, like modern.
As I stated, I don't see the bans having that much effect on it. Especially since the only thing banned from zoo is Zenith, which doesn't even go into the graveyard. It's definitely an awesome creature, I just don't think it's the be all and end all of creatures in the format.
Goyf's a really good creature and I don't see the bannings having much effect on him. I think it is a little more hyped up than it should be though, to say that it's format warping in legacy is definitely a stretch. I play a decent amount of legacy and I will say that I'd rather see a goyf hit the table against me than stoneforge, clique, or bob. It's a really good card, but it's not as good as it's made out to be.
Look at maverick, it's a legacy Aggro deck in green that usually runs a single Tarmogoyf. It's actually lost it's spot to Scavenging ooze in some maverick lists. If it were the format defining beater that everyone says it is, why isn't it a 4 of in an aggro deck in it's colours? I'll also add that I haven't seen a maverick list that runs mental misstep to protect stoneforge.
goyf completely revised aggro in legacy. so many creatures were made obsolete by him.
IMO, people overrate confidant too much. yeah he's really good, and i mean really good, but he doesn't go in nearly as many decks as goyf, and people try to throw him into way too many things he doesn't belong in. everyone acts like he's the greatest thing since sliced bread but he's not even run that often when he's legal. everybody everywhere wants tarmogoyf and he has always made a presence in the format's top decks. confidant can't claim that.
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So in your book the common play for someone running red+bolt in modern, which means they are 99% of the time a zoo deck, is going to be land go waiting to bolt a creature instead of their own Nacatl/ape/lion/guide/etc to establish board presance and threaten their own clock.
I would love to face the zoo people you guys are player, could always use free wins.
If your Goyf is chewing through blockers the entire early game you are gaining significant card and board advantage, keeping tempo on your side of the table as the beatdown player, and can likely make a solid follow up play on the back of the Goyf that is winning you the game. 4/5s for 2 mana don't need to have trample or evasion, they'll take over play on their own terms unless they are removed, and such an efficient creature will cost you so little in terms of tempo if it is removed. Goblin Guide has no evasion and a disadvantage and is one of the best 1 drops of all time, and Goyf easily outclasses it in terms of size most of the times when you're likely to cast a Goyf; that does not make either Goyf or Goblin Guide bad, since they are both amazing creatures for what they cost and the role they fill. Not every good creature in Magic has done something on top of attacking and blocking, and Goyf certainly does not need any help in those regards.
So back in Ravnica/time spiral when goyfs would be chumped all day by Augur of Skulls/Wall of Roots/etc and doing little to no good for you, putting on no pressure doing no damage and just sitting around looking silly, you classified that as "winning the game."
Hell even in modern he's encountering Wall of Roots/overgrown battlements running around and even a Thrun here and there when Green Sun was around, but he was definatly winning those games as well. Although I guess I will take some fault as say "chump block" does imply that he's killing through creatures so fair enough.
That's the problem with vanilla creatures they don't require answers, they don't really even require respect, all they require is that you continue to play the game the way you always have been. Every single time I have seen someone lose to a goyf it has been because they overestimated it and made a rather silly play like tossing away a Path to Exile on a 4/5 goyf when they had a Knight of the Reliquary in their hand with 3 fetchlands in the graveyard.
To date the only deck I've seen actually play goyf and it actually strike me as a deck he belonged in was goyf-rack, and that was only because in that type of deck you actually need cheap effective beaters with easy mana costs so you can apply pressure on top of the rack/discard effects and quick/easy recovery after smallpox. Even then that deck would win and lose on the card advantage of Dark Confidant more than it would goyf power/toughness/mana cost.
And most of the time Goyf will beat eating everything that jumps in his path since its not even a little bit hard to get to a 4/5 or even 5/6. There is a reason why Pridemage/Hierarch are so awesome and thats because they win you goyf wars.
Love this argument, "he's efficient end of discussion" such a great way to show you know how to clearly debate and discuss a card. Sorry but I get more milage out of a Grim Lavamancers than I do goyfs. Considering he let's me get damage through blockers as well as finish off/kill creatures for nothing more than cards I have already used it's rather easy to see why.
As far as Pridemage/Hierarchs no they are not good because of goyf wars, they are good because 1 gives you a turn 3 Knight of the Reliquary/mana fixing and provides a buff for other creatures just by sitting there. Pridemage is good because he is a main deckable answer to artifacts and enchantments that doens't throw off your curve or take away from your main strategy of playing cheap creatures. They are good because of their all around utility and versatilty, something goyf does not have, not because of goyf himself.
Explain to me why Tarmogoyf is the premier aggro creature and the premier control finisher then? Sure Grim Lavamancer can get damage past blockers and kill creatures but Goyf eats 99% of the blockers in the format anyways. A Tarmogoyf unanswered wins games incredibly quickly since he's a huge beater and he doesn't require any investment past the initially 2 mana. I don't see a reason not to be running him in any green deck thats not a combo deck because he's just that good. Sure he's a vanilla creature but the simple fact that he's extremely cheap, splashable, and he's huge makes him quite a formidable threat.
As for Pridemage/Hierarch it is true that they do have additional utility for which they are played but do you think they would be nearly as good without exalted? Being able to beat through your opponents Goyfs during Goyf wars is huge and can win you games.
At the end of the day Tarmogoyf is the best beater ever printed and that's why he's a staple in many tier 1 archetypes in every format that he's legal in. But if you disagree please tell me a creature that's splashable, cheap, and efficient like Tarmogoyf.
Premier Control finisher? Guess it's easy to be a finish of an archtype that doesn't currently exist in this format.
Premier Aggro finisher, you might want to look again zoo builds like the one that got 2nd place at Philly it was running 4 Knight of the Reliquary and 2 Elspeth Knight-Errant. Other variants running Punishing Fire get a third option to push for the final points of damage, although I wouldn't call it a finisher. Goyf may be efficient but Knight provides the back bone of the deck in the mid-late game with it's land thinning giving you better chances of drawing action and getting even bigger than goyf in the process, while Elspeth makes other creatures into finishers or just makes you an army. Sorry but again goyf isn't the finisher.
Really a goyf unanswered wins game? I find this rather hard to believe when my opponents can have multiple goyfs out for long periods of time against a number of decks I run and they can't seem to kill me. As I said earlier goyf doesn't require an answer he just requires you to continue to play your game and not treat him any different than you would any other vanilla beater no matter what he can become that is still all he is. It doesn't matter how splashable he is, it doesn't matter how efficient he is the only way he is winning you anything is if your opponent commits more to him than he should, and in that regard his level of ability on the board is a result of the undue respect people give him.
Most efficient beater ever printed? Don't think I would argue that. Best beater ever printed? Not even close. Knight of the Reliquary tops him alone, and I would even bank on cards like Mistbind Clique, Vendilion Clique, the Titans, Ranger of Eos, etc etc as better beaters because they are more than just "good beaters."
Where did I say Aggro finisher? Goyf is a better beater in general than KotR because he doesn't require as much work and he goes in more decks than KotR does. Just stop and look at Legacy for a second, cards have to be the best of the best to make the cut in Legacy and he's not only good enough, he makes decks splash green just for him. So just tell me, how can a "vanilla" creature not only make the cut but be a format defining card in every format he's in. Also how does beating for 4 a turn not win you the game?
Also out of curiosity, did you play during old Extended and do you/have you played Legacy?
So goyf is the format defining card of Legacy eh?
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/usnat11/day2#17a
Strange decklists of the top 8 of the nationals only has him in NO-RUG, which is about Natural Order he get's played because he's a cheap card to sac for the game winning threat Progenitus, a single UGB control deck, and zoo. He didn't make the cut in Dredge, a deck that is running a lot of green, or Landstill(although Stoneforge and Vendilion Clique did), didn't make the cut in Reanimator, didn't make the cut in Merfolk. So he made the cut in 4 decks, 2 of which where the same deck, that's so format warping. If you want format warping I suggest you look at mental misstep in legacy or what Jace/Stoneforge did to standard.
Beating for 4 a turn doesn't win you the game because it doesn't get through, how have you been missing this it's been the entire point of my arguments. Vanilla beater does not get damage through because of a number of issues I have already named where a creature with trample/evasion/activated abilities/etc can actually get damage through. Please read.
I said format defining. Please Read.
Also clearly you didn't play Legacy when people figured out that Goyf was amazing, combo decks were splashing for him, merfolks were splashing for him, goblins were splashing for him, pretty much every deck was splashing for him because he's just that good. Also his absence in Legacy has mainly been due to MM which made SFM really powerful since it became easier to protect. Expect to see a lot more of him soon with Zoo getting better, Countertop coming back and Landstill needing a more reliable threat.
And hey what do you know I did read you, but if you have blockers for Tarmogoyf (there aren't many playable creatures which can block him and live) then you have an answer! So if you have no answers then you must not have blockers and thus are taking 4 a turn.
Tarmogoyf is good enough to see tier 1 play in every format he's been legal in (including vintage) so I don't see how you can say he's not that good. In fact I'd say he's the second best creature in Modern.
Not very format defining either considering aside for zoo the decks he's ran in are winning more off Tombstalker, Jace, or Progenius, the one exception being the zoo deck and that is winning off of several creatures not just goyf.
As far as when he first came out, people at first hated him and he was a junk rare. Then someone made him work and everyone jumped on his bandwagon and he blew up as a result decks that had no valid, or viable reason to splash him started splashing him until people learned he didn't belong and wasn't worth it. As a result said splashing stopped and it's why again you only see 4 decks with him 2 of which are the same deck and they plan on sacing him not winning with him, a control deck that might eek out a win with him but will win with better options, such as stalker and Jace.
I can say he's not that good because he simply isn't. As I said earlier the only time he does anything relevant is when the person playing against him gives him far more respect than he deserves and throws away a card they need for something else far more threatening and far more relevant.
last time I checked jace wasn't good enough in this format and then got banned to keep the fear mongers off of their QQ sessions.
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I agree with all of this, except the second best. Seriously, what is better than Goyf in Modern and Legacy? Even in an environment favorable to SFM, Goyf was more played.
Dark Confidant is cool and all, but he's really only better in Vintage. The spells in Modern are too weak and combined with the shocklands he will never be insane. I could see an argument for KoTR but it is so much easier to splash colors with Goyf, KoTR screws with your mana base too much. Definitely the best 3 drop ever, but that's a bit different.
You're talking about a format that was hugely warped by Mental Misstep that cards like Jace and SFM where a lot more powerful since they were easier to protect and that just isn't the case anymore so now Tarmogoyf is going to come back since he's a a threat that doesn't really need to be protected to be good.
Tarmogoyf makes the cut in Vintage for christ sake! How many just plain beaters are there in vintage besides Tarmogoyf? None. Tarmogoyf is just that good, he's the cheap, efficient, and he's a huge threat that can take over games by himself since he's so huge.
Also I'd like to point out that there have been Zoo decks that have made top8's in Old Extended and Legacy that have played Tarmogoyf and not KotR because he's just the best beater around.
Sorceries: Thoughseize, Raven's Crime, Smallpox, Slieght of Hand, Life from the Loam (are all played)
Instants: Mana Leak, Remand, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Doom Blade, Go for the Throat (all played)
Enchantments: Splinter Twin, Seismic Assault, and Oblivion Ring are the only 3 I can think of.
Artifacts: Affinity is a deck. Swords of are still played.
Creatures: alot
Lands: Fetchlands, Ghost Quarter, Tec Edge (all are played)
Tribal: none
PW: Baby Jace, Ajani V, Venser, Gideon (all are played)
There is a plethera of combinations of types that will result in Goyf being a 4/5. I play Assault Loam and he's rarely below a 3/4 when he's on the field.
That being said, it's obvious you can't just throw 4 Goyfs in say a MGA deck. That's like playing Dungrove Elder in a deck w/ 4 forests in it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
Doran Junk decks run a singleton Nameless Inversion that they can tutor for with their Treefolk Harbinger.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I stand corrected. 1 card in 1 deck.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
You're damn right :P! The only reason why I bring it up is because the deck obviously also runs Goyfs, and can probably create the biggest Goyfs more consistently than any other deck.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Creature
Tribal
Instant
Sorcery
Land
Enchantment?
PW?
So 5/6
Jund-Loam
Creature
Enchantment
Instant
Sorcery
Land
No PW or Tribal
5/6
So it's a tie...lol. Their 1 Tribal vs 3 S. Assaults....lol
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
Doran runs Elspeth, Knight-Errant and often times Tidehollow Sculler. It can get artifacts and PWers as well.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Look at maverick, it's a legacy Aggro deck in green that usually runs a single Tarmogoyf. It's actually lost it's spot to Scavenging ooze in some maverick lists. If it were the format defining beater that everyone says it is, why isn't it a 4 of in an aggro deck in it's colours? I'll also add that I haven't seen a maverick list that runs mental misstep to protect stoneforge.
... lol. Thanks for the heads up about the Legacy format I guess? Can we get back to Modern maybe?
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I was just responding to the huge argument in this thread about goyf's impact in legacy. They were using it's presence in legacy as an example to why it's so good in other formats, like modern.
As I stated, I don't see the bans having that much effect on it. Especially since the only thing banned from zoo is Zenith, which doesn't even go into the graveyard. It's definitely an awesome creature, I just don't think it's the be all and end all of creatures in the format.
Wait...
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
goyf completely revised aggro in legacy. so many creatures were made obsolete by him.
IMO, people overrate confidant too much. yeah he's really good, and i mean really good, but he doesn't go in nearly as many decks as goyf, and people try to throw him into way too many things he doesn't belong in. everyone acts like he's the greatest thing since sliced bread but he's not even run that often when he's legal. everybody everywhere wants tarmogoyf and he has always made a presence in the format's top decks. confidant can't claim that.