It really bugs me that only half the fetch lands are allowed in modern (Zendikar fetch lands like Scalding Tarn, etc.) while the other half of the fetch lands are not (Onslaught fetch lands like Windswept Heath, etc.). It's just the fact that it makes things so asymmetrical that bugs me. It feels so... wrong! I like having symmetrical mana-bases!
What's also weird is that only the enemy color combinations are modern legal fetch lands whereas those of allied colors are not!
Either get rid of them all or reprint the rest. Personally, I think fetchlands are annoying if only for the constant shuffling which was what I thought wizards were trying to avoid.
I kind of like it this way for now. The fact that it is asymmetric and that there is no other environment quite like it adds a bit of interest for me. I don't doubt they will reprint the allied fetchlands at some point, but I don't think there is a need to rush it.
I don't see how this is an issue. Sure you can't get two friendly basics off a of a fetch but you can split it up like this.(for UW)
2 marsh flats
2 misty rainforest
this would give you he ability to get a basic and a on color shock with both of the lands. I mean any fetch can get an on color shock with any other land type added to it.
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I don't see how this is an issue. Sure you can't get two friendly basics off a of a fetch but you can split it up like this.(for UW)
2 marsh flats
2 misty rainforest
this would give you he ability to get a basic and a on color shock with both of the lands. I mean any fetch can get an on color shock with any other land type added to it.
I mean, the reason it feels weird / asymmetrical to do this is because we're using only half of each card. If you have marsh flats and misty rainforest in a UW deck, you're using them only in the following way:
marsh flats: fetch a plains
misty rainforest: fetch an island
Despite the fact that that either of those two will be able to fetch a Hallowed Fountain, their functionality is still very limited.
Either get rid of them all or reprint the rest. Personally, I think fetchlands are annoying if only for the constant shuffling which was what I thought wizards were trying to avoid.
Other than the fact it made every time I touched Zendikar profitable I hated that they reprinted Fetches. I was soo looking forward to extended w/out Fetch Lands. I've learned to deal with it simply because they needed to exist, but I think modern would be a lot better w/out them (simply because there would be other options to Rav Duals).
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Other than the fact it made every time I touched Zendikar profitable I hated that they reprinted Fetches. I was soo looking forward to extended w/out Fetch Lands. I've learned to deal with it simply because they needed to exist, but I think modern would be a lot better w/out them (simply because there would be other options to Rav Duals).
This is actually sensible. There is almost no reason to play non-Shock duals in your manabase in multiples (unless you are not the beatdown) when the synergy between shocks and fetches exists.
This is actually sensible. There is almost no reason to play non-Shock duals in your manabase in multiples (unless you are not the beatdown) when the synergy between shocks and fetches exists.
Yeah, so what should we do about it? Go play extended instead? (which, btw, I feel could be a pretty diverse format if they keep it alive)
truely shocks and fetches aren't OP just zoo. No other deck can abuse them in that way, and they are actually good for control because you can run mostly mono-blue for vedlaken shackles while being able to play other cards and have 3-4 colors for engineered explosives.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
truely shocks and fetches aren't OP just zoo. No other deck can abuse them in that way, and they are actually good for control because you can run mostly mono-blue for vedlaken shackles while being able to play other cards and have 3-4 colors for engineered explosives.
True, and it is mostly because of Wild Nacatl becoming a 3/3 on turn 2.
Then again, that is mostly due to the Shocklands. The fetches just make the shocks even better. Legacy would certainly be an interesting format without fetches as well. Onslaught block changed so much in the legacy world (storm, goblins, and fetches).
Fetch lands, perhaps, should have cost more life to use. 1 life is a small amount to pay to retrieve a dual land or shock land.
The main concern when the fetches were created was that they artificially lengthened gameplay by introducing increased shuffling. The life loss has never been an issue, afaik, and in Modern, it's really quite okay. If you're willing to go to 15 on Turn 1 just so you can find your dual land and Thoughtseize, more power to you.
You just made my RDW deck's job so much easier. Bless you shocklands, bless you.
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This is actually sensible. There is almost no reason to play non-Shock duals in your manabase in multiples (unless you are not the beatdown) when the synergy between shocks and fetches exists.
If you were making a midrange or control deck with 3+ colors you may have to be smart about using too many of each. If Zoo was being adapted to a midgame strategy I would think that they might cut a few lands that ping you. While it is a good trade (life for mana stability) it can add up over time, especially if you are also running Dark Confidant.
As to only having enemy, it seems perfectly fine to me. Previous Extended was fine with only half, and I kinda like the quirkiness of only having the Enemy pairs.
fetches do give a rather sick consistency to your manabase running three colours almost becomes trivial. It probably is not that good for the game because it does take the chance of getting screwed pretty much out of the game which I think is rather bad.
At least their still is moon effects to abuse those who get too ambitious with their mana bases.
I may be off base, here, but I don't think mana-screw is good for the game at all. Virtually the entire "luck" factor in Magic comes from mana-screw, and it just makes people incapable of playing an otherwise good deck when it happens. When I am playing against someone who is discarding on turn 4 because he has a singleton Swamp on the board, I just want to start over rather than win against that kind of crappy luck. I'd much rather face decks at their full potential, and fetches make that more common.
I may be off base, here, but I don't think mana-screw is good for the game at all. Virtually the entire "luck" factor in Magic comes from mana-screw, and it just makes people incapable of playing an otherwise good deck when it happens. When I am playing against someone who is discarding on turn 4 because he has a singleton Swamp on the board, I just want to start over rather than win against that kind of crappy luck. I'd much rather face decks at their full potential, and fetches make that more common.
this is true. but if every deck can play every card it will simply turn into a series of mirror matches. The point of magic's color pie was that not every deck could play every best card.
Of course, given that blue has gotten most of the best cards over the years, this rule has gone largely ignored, so maybe it doesn't really matter anymore.
I may be off base, here, but I don't think mana-screw is good for the game at all.
Yes, you are off base. If the goal of this game were to be able to play any color or number or colors without difficulty, then the original duals would be legal in all formats. Instead Doc Garfield and the Magic Krew have built in to this game certain "costs" related to number of colors in your deck, in exchange for the versatility and power that comes with using multiple colors. Additionally they have created a system wherein certain colors are allies, and certain colors are enemies and one of the ways in which they choose to communicate the difference is by making enemy color pairs less common.
The potential for mana screw (and color screw) is what creates the impetus to improve the decks by reducing that potential. Restrictions, costs, weaknesses, and limitations are what drives us to improve and grow- no doubt the folks that develop this game know that.
Yes, you are off base. If the goal of this game were to be able to play any color or number or colors without difficulty, then the original duals would be legal in all formats. Instead Doc Garfield and the Magic Krew have built in to this game certain "costs" related to number of colors in your deck, in exchange for the versatility and power that comes with using multiple colors. Additionally they have created a system wherein certain colors are allies, and certain colors are enemies and one of the ways in which they choose to communicate the difference is by making enemy color pairs less common.
The potential for mana screw (and color screw) is what creates the impetus to improve the decks by reducing that potential. Restrictions, costs, weaknesses, and limitations are what drives us to improve and grow- no doubt the folks that develop this game know that.
I believe he is referring to quantity-screw, not color-screw. While the potential for mana screw is always present and always relevant, it is definitely never fun to play with or against. I do not enjoy beating an opponent who ends up being stuck on two lands for an entire game. While quantity of lands is often the reason for this, it is still definitely possible to just have a bad shuffle and end up drawing nothing. Such is luck.
However, in the scope of tournaments, it is incredibly relevant and should thus remain part of the game. When I am playing purely for fun, it is usually in multiplayer formats and we just ignore the person getting mana-screwed until he can pull himself out of it.
What's also weird is that only the enemy color combinations are modern legal fetch lands whereas those of allied colors are not!
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
Either get rid of them all or reprint the rest. Personally, I think fetchlands are annoying if only for the constant shuffling which was what I thought wizards were trying to avoid.
2 marsh flats
2 misty rainforest
this would give you he ability to get a basic and a on color shock with both of the lands. I mean any fetch can get an on color shock with any other land type added to it.
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I mean, the reason it feels weird / asymmetrical to do this is because we're using only half of each card. If you have marsh flats and misty rainforest in a UW deck, you're using them only in the following way:
marsh flats: fetch a plains
misty rainforest: fetch an island
Despite the fact that that either of those two will be able to fetch a Hallowed Fountain, their functionality is still very limited.
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
Other than the fact it made every time I touched Zendikar profitable I hated that they reprinted Fetches. I was soo looking forward to extended w/out Fetch Lands. I've learned to deal with it simply because they needed to exist, but I think modern would be a lot better w/out them (simply because there would be other options to Rav Duals).
This is actually sensible. There is almost no reason to play non-Shock duals in your manabase in multiples (unless you are not the beatdown) when the synergy between shocks and fetches exists.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Yeah, so what should we do about it? Go play extended instead? (which, btw, I feel could be a pretty diverse format if they keep it alive)
There's nothing we can really do about unless any of a number of things happen:
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Fetches + basics? Filter Lands? Scars lands? M10 duals?
Seems like a mix of filter lands, M10 duals, fetches, and Reflecting Pool.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
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True, and it is mostly because of Wild Nacatl becoming a 3/3 on turn 2.
Then again, that is mostly due to the Shocklands. The fetches just make the shocks even better. Legacy would certainly be an interesting format without fetches as well. Onslaught block changed so much in the legacy world (storm, goblins, and fetches).
The main concern when the fetches were created was that they artificially lengthened gameplay by introducing increased shuffling. The life loss has never been an issue, afaik, and in Modern, it's really quite okay. If you're willing to go to 15 on Turn 1 just so you can find your dual land and Thoughtseize, more power to you.
You just made my RDW deck's job so much easier. Bless you shocklands, bless you.
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If you were making a midrange or control deck with 3+ colors you may have to be smart about using too many of each. If Zoo was being adapted to a midgame strategy I would think that they might cut a few lands that ping you. While it is a good trade (life for mana stability) it can add up over time, especially if you are also running Dark Confidant.
As to only having enemy, it seems perfectly fine to me. Previous Extended was fine with only half, and I kinda like the quirkiness of only having the Enemy pairs.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
At least their still is moon effects to abuse those who get too ambitious with their mana bases.
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this is true. but if every deck can play every card it will simply turn into a series of mirror matches. The point of magic's color pie was that not every deck could play every best card.
Of course, given that blue has gotten most of the best cards over the years, this rule has gone largely ignored, so maybe it doesn't really matter anymore.
The potential for mana screw (and color screw) is what creates the impetus to improve the decks by reducing that potential. Restrictions, costs, weaknesses, and limitations are what drives us to improve and grow- no doubt the folks that develop this game know that.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I believe he is referring to quantity-screw, not color-screw. While the potential for mana screw is always present and always relevant, it is definitely never fun to play with or against. I do not enjoy beating an opponent who ends up being stuck on two lands for an entire game. While quantity of lands is often the reason for this, it is still definitely possible to just have a bad shuffle and end up drawing nothing. Such is luck.
However, in the scope of tournaments, it is incredibly relevant and should thus remain part of the game. When I am playing purely for fun, it is usually in multiplayer formats and we just ignore the person getting mana-screwed until he can pull himself out of it.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG