Chrome Mox makes every single combo deck one turn faster. Having it in the format is counter-productive while Wizards is trying to balance it so games end no sooner than turn four.
People need to stop pretending that only their pet decks would play unfair cards.
YOU need to stop pretending you actually know something about the format's combo decks.
Few, if any, combo decks want to play chrome.
Scepter is not competitive because Mox is banned. Zoo, rdw and random aggro cant beat a turn 1 scepter to lightning helix. Control cant beat a recursive boomerang on lands from turn 2.
And a Pyromancer´s ascension turn 1 its simply broken.
It isn't if you have to give yourself major card disadvantage.
Just because a card wasnt used in a certain way in an older format, doesnt mean with new cards in a new format it wouldnt be used in any deck. Just look at old Zoo decks from 4-5 years ago. Do they look the same today? Nope. The new cards printed have changed the interactions and synergy of the deck.
For anyone to say a card wouldnt be used in a deck is very narrow sighted and not innovative. Without trying things we end up with a stale format
You know crawwurm shouldn't be used in storm deck. Am I "narrow sighted" now?
Jesus Christ, I swear. Stop saying that someone is "uninnovate" or not "creative enough" when they tell you something doesn't work. You don't have to agree, but for god's sakes don't throw out the MTG eqiuvalant of calling someone a poopy-heady. It immature, and obviosly an attempt to discredit someone's opinion without actually providing any real arguements as to why they are wrong.
Listen everyone, I know Slip is a famouse nay-sayer who deservedly takes some heat for his nay-saying. But in this case he is right.
YOU need to stop pretending you actually know something about the format's combo decks.
Few, if any, combo decks want to play chrome.
It isn't if you have to give yourself major card disadvantage.
You know crawwurm shouldn't be used in storm deck. Am I "narrow sighted" now?
Jesus Christ, I swear. Stop saying that someone is "uninnovate" or not "creative enough" when they tell you something doesn't work. You don't have to agree, but for god's sakes don't throw out the MTG eqiuvalant of calling someone a poopy-heady. It immature, and obviosly an attempt to discredit someone's opinion without actually providing any real arguements as to why they are wrong.
In the holiday spirit, enjoy playing with your 1% of the card pool. Ill try and break the format with new interactions and at least try all the cards in the format or even a certain color before discounting them as jank. Also I take whats said on the internet in general with a grain of salt. There is a difference between theorycrafting and actual playing. Sometimes they agree with each other, somethimes not. If someone said something does or doesnt work, I am the guy who will sleeve them up and play them to see.
One last thing people are being uninnovative in this format, at least the ones complaining. They want to play their pet cards or decks and have no intention of playing out side of them with out complaining. From the very announcement of the format Wotc was looking for something different, they wanted different decks and different interactions. Not Standard 3.0 or Legacy lite. If thats what you were looking for (not directed at any one person) you are going to be disappointed.
One last thing people are being uninnovative in this format, at least the ones complaining. They want to play their pet cards or decks and have no intention of playing out side of them with out complaining. From the very announcement of the format Wotc was looking for something different, they wanted different decks and different interactions. Not Standard 3.0 or Legacy lite. If thats what you were looking for (not directed at any one person) you are going to be disappointed.
I know you say that this isn't aimed at anyone, but I know It is definitely aimed at me. I might not be the only one, but I know I am one of the ones. As for not being innovative that is a joke. I have went through every list that has existed in magic trying to find something. I have read every strategy article looking for something. I am coming up blank. The only decks that seem to be viable now are ones from other formats that are not on the ban list. The only control deck that is viable is esper teachings/gifts which is close enough to the same deck to be considered as such. I mean if goyf, bob, and BBE were all banned jund would not exist. Tons of control decks have that many important cards on the ban list. We need some unbans to make the format more varied, and we need PTQ results too show the competitive meta game which MTGO is pretty far from IMO.
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there is at least two other control decks that can post decent numbers agaist zoo besides teachings. chrome mox is a non factor in this format and so is scepter. if your going to make use of any decent artifacts in this format as it stands it would likely be some kind of affinity or tezzeret control which seems far fetched or too slow for now..back from holidays and you lot are still going at it how ironic lol
there is at least two other control decks that can post decent numbers agaist zoo besides teachings. chrome mox is a non factor in this format and so is scepter. if your going to make use of any decent artifacts in this format as it stands it would likely be some kind of affinity or tezzeret control which seems far fetched or too slow for now..back from holidays and you lot are still going at it how ironic lol
well look at what you need for a control deck. You need good card draw. We don't have good universal card draw anymore because it got banned. Now we have esper charm(which forces your deck to be esper gifts or esper teachings although both decks are really similar) or thirst for knowledge which takes up ~1/3 of your deck just to run. Chrome mox and artifact lands fixed this problem while making the artifacts you did run fast enough to actually matter.
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Or you could play a non-blue tempo control deck... Just saying.
last time I checked tempo decks were blue decks. I mean you don't have tempo counterspells, flash creatures, ect without blue. This is even been the historical representation of it like since the beginning of the game.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
last time I checked tempo decks were blue decks. I mean you don't have tempo counterspells, flash creatures, ect without blue. This is even been the historical representation of it like since the beginning of the game.
That's not necessarly true, most of them are Ux, but there are nonblue tempo decks, like Eva Green (R.I.P. :().
That's not necessarly true, most of them are Ux, but there are nonblue tempo decks, like Eva Green (R.I.P. :().
eva green is essentially black suicide with a splash. Black sui is an aggro deck.
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I guess modern is so warped that anything that runs any disruption, be it counter or discard, now qualifies as a control-deck. Just add Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek to your deck and BAM control.
Regarding what might rightfully be called a control deck, this recent CFB-article presents builds for UW Tron and Cryptic Control that seem interesting. If only Chrome Mox were legal.
I know right. It is the only barrier that is keeping several of my brews from being at least tier 1.5/2. It is just so important for control to get a little jump start to playing expensive spells.
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Tempo, the idea behind a tempo deck is to disrupt your opponents tempo so you can win.
You can do this in (generally) any colour. Especially in Modern which is generally a creature based format.
So your tempo deck needs to be able to hold off their onslaught whilst you apply the beats.
Therefore a deck tuned to win via a reasonably early game hard to remove threat, whilst picking off any creatures your opponent would be a tempo deck.
It's logical, if bouncing/countering a turn 2 creature buys you a 1 turn tempo advantage, effectively "time walking" your opponent, then destroying whatever they just played is also the equivalent of said Time Walk.
By your stick zoo is a tempo deck. So is jund, bant, ....................
all i wanted for christmas was chrome mox back lol.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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"Tempo is a term to describe the pace at which one plays threats. It is often used in conjunction with mana acceleration. Aggro decks as well as Midrange decks generally win with tempo, and often trade card advantage to gain it. Often when in relation to a player's deck, tempo is simplified to "Speed" which refers to the absolute "fastest" tempo a single deck can produce (not necessarily the one most optimal for the match.)"- MTG Salvation Wiki
"Tempo is a term used in Magic: The Gathering to indicate the advantage gained when a player is able to play more or stronger cards in a shorter period of time due to efficient resource allocation.[1] A companion concept to card advantage, it is sometimes defined as the means by which a player gains additional options or decreases the options possessed by the opponent by means not directly pertaining to respective numbers of playable cards."- Wikipedia
Very simply, tempo is the rate at which you win the game. A tempo deck, therefor, is a deck that changes that rate to your advantage. The two most basic ways to do this is to make winning take longer for your opponent or make winning faster for you. Aggro is a form of tempo at it's very basic, though it is not thought of as such because it only increases the rate at which you win. This is a very inefficient form of gaining tempo advantage, but aggro can manage it due to it's nature- especially if they play creatures with Haste. The most efficient, and most common plan of action for tempo decks is to speed up your chance of winning while slowing down your opponent. This is why UG has traditionally been the best color combination for tempo decks because blue slows them down, while green speeds you up. Cards like Mystic Snake are classic examples of double duty, because you counter an opponent's (hopefully more expensive) spell and get a beater on the battlefield in one play.
It gets much more muddy the more you delve in to tempo. For example, Mystic Snake has great tempo potential, but if you cast it to counter Pulse Tracker and you are tapping your only 4 mana sources to do it, you have just lost tempo because your opponent may have lost the Tracker, but they have plenty of mana open to cast another spell. If you were to tap out to cast Mystic Snake in response to any spell your opponent cast, and there is an Aether Flash in play, then no tempo has been gained and you have no more gas left.
Control can be, and is often a form of tempo. If the spells a control player is casting are costing him less than those of his opponent, then the control player has mana left over to put a threat in the board and he has gained tempo if he does so. This is the reason that instant speed draw and flash-able threats are required for control. If there are only sorcery speed draw spells open to a control player then they loose tempo terribly because the mana spent to cast that draw spell means there is less mana open to counter or play a threat. By playing draw spells and threats at instant speed the control player can have mana at the time he needs it, and often have some left over to play an instant speed threat at the end of an opponent's turn when tapping out is least damaging. Control is also loosing tempo at times (mostly in the form of life loss), so the net gain is smaller than a focused tempo deck, but much of Control's plays are made with an eye towards tempo.
Another form of gaining tempo is by stalling an opponent, so cards like Ghostly Prison, Overgrown Battlement, and Traproot Kami can be tempo cards in the right deck, if your opponent is trying to win with creatures, so can cards that grant creatures protection from the color their opponent is playing.
Is Eldrazi Green a tempo deck? If we are talking classic tempo then no, not really. Classic tempo gains tempo steadily, and with each play. Every card and interaction is with steady tempo gain in mind, and tempo loss is to be non-existant (ideally). Eldrazi Green, however, gives up a lot of tempo whenever it casts a spell that just ramps mana that comes in to play tapped. It is all done with the idea of a MAJOR tempo boost eventually in order to cast an Egyptian God Card and win the game, but on a turn by turn basis most plays loose the player tempo. You could argue that almost any deck that wins has won with tempo, unless you are playing a coinflip deck, but a true tempo deck is built to gain tempo as often as possible.
Control can be tempo, but it does not have to be.
Tempo is one of those things that is never simply determined by a deck, unlike speed. If a deck is fast, it's fast. If a deck is built with an eye towards tempo it can cease to be a tempo deck if you are facing a deck you did not plan for, so it is never entirely up to the pilot of the deck.
Can it be tempo?
Creature Aggro- Yes, if it is playing out more power than it's opponent can play out toughness and doing it for less mana, then it is gaining tempo. The problem comes from the use of burn.
Burn Aggro- the problem with making RDW tempo is it's reliance on burn for removal. You only gain tempo if the mana spent to cast the burn exceeds the mana spent to cast the spell and the damage it has done to you. Burn can do that, but it is often small gain, and only if the creature has not attacked.
Combo- rarely. Combo seeks to get it's combo and win, and while it does that it is simply holding it's opponent off and finding it's pieces, so it is fine with tempo loss as long as it gets it's combo in place.
Control- Often, though not always. In contrast with burn, control uses spells that, when properly cast, remove a threat that cost more to cast than the removal did. Path to Exile can remove a threat many times it's own cost and power level, as do counters. Ghostly Prison holds back creatures regardless of cost or power, as does color protection. Wrath of God...well you get the picture.
Any color has tempo cards, though Red fares the worst. Even that, however, is lousy with Haste and cheap beaters. Haste is tempo because it has the potential to attack one more time than any other creature, so it can deal more damage over time. Cheap beaters are situational tempo gain because the things that remove them almost always cost more to cast than they do.
"Tempo is a term to describe the pace at which one plays threats. It is often used in conjunction with mana acceleration. Aggro decks as well as Midrange decks generally win with tempo, and often trade card advantage to gain it. Often when in relation to a player's deck, tempo is simplified to "Speed" which refers to the absolute "fastest" tempo a single deck can produce (not necessarily the one most optimal for the match.)"- MTG Salvation Wiki
"Tempo is a term used in Magic: The Gathering to indicate the advantage gained when a player is able to play more or stronger cards in a shorter period of time due to efficient resource allocation.[1] A companion concept to card advantage, it is sometimes defined as the means by which a player gains additional options or decreases the options possessed by the opponent by means not directly pertaining to respective numbers of playable cards."- Wikipedia
Very simply, tempo is the rate at which you win the game. A tempo deck, therefor, is a deck that changes that rate to your advantage. The two most basic ways to do this is to make winning take longer for your opponent or make winning faster for you. Aggro is a form of tempo at it's very basic, though it is not thought of as such because it only increases the rate at which you win. This is a very inefficient form of gaining tempo advantage, but aggro can manage it due to it's nature- especially if they play creatures with Haste. The most efficient, and most common plan of action for tempo decks is to speed up your chance of winning while slowing down your opponent. This is why UG has traditionally been the best color combination for tempo decks because blue slows them down, while green speeds you up. Cards like Mystic Snake are classic examples of double duty, because you counter an opponent's (hopefully more expensive) spell and get a beater on the battlefield in one play.
It gets much more muddy the more you delve in to tempo. For example, Mystic Snake has great tempo potential, but if you cast it to counter Pulse Tracker and you are tapping your only 4 mana sources to do it, you have just lost tempo because your opponent may have lost the Tracker, but they have plenty of mana open to cast another spell. If you were to tap out to cast Mystic Snake in response to any spell your opponent cast, and there is an Aether Flash in play, then no tempo has been gained and you have no more gas left.
Control can be, and is often a form of tempo. If the spells a control player is casting are costing him less than those of his opponent, then the control player has mana left over to put a threat in the board and he has gained tempo if he does so. This is the reason that instant speed draw and flash-able threats are required for control. If there are only sorcery speed draw spells open to a control player then they loose tempo terribly because the mana spent to cast that draw spell means there is less mana open to counter or play a threat. By playing draw spells and threats at instant speed the control player can have mana at the time he needs it, and often have some left over to play an instant speed threat at the end of an opponent's turn when tapping out is least damaging. Control is also loosing tempo at times (mostly in the form of life loss), so the net gain is smaller than a focused tempo deck, but much of Control's plays are made with an eye towards tempo.
Another form of gaining tempo is by stalling an opponent, so cards like Ghostly Prison, Overgrown Battlement, and Traproot Kami can be tempo cards in the right deck, if your opponent is trying to win with creatures, so can cards that grant creatures protection from the color their opponent is playing.
Is Eldrazi Green a tempo deck? If we are talking classic tempo then no, not really. Classic tempo gains tempo steadily, and with each play. Every card and interaction is with steady tempo gain in mind, and tempo loss is to be non-existant (ideally). Eldrazi Green, however, gives up a lot of tempo whenever it casts a spell that just ramps mana that comes in to play tapped. It is all done with the idea of a MAJOR tempo boost eventually in order to cast an Egyptian God Card and win the game, but on a turn by turn basis most plays loose the player tempo. You could argue that almost any deck that wins has won with tempo, unless you are playing a coinflip deck, but a true tempo deck is built to gain tempo as often as possible.
Control can be tempo, but it does not have to be.
Tempo is one of those things that is never simply determined by a deck, unlike speed. If a deck is fast, it's fast. If a deck is built with an eye towards tempo it can cease to be a tempo deck if you are facing a deck you did not plan for, so it is never entirely up to the pilot of the deck.
Can it be tempo?
Creature Aggro- Yes, if it is playing out more power than it's opponent can play out toughness and doing it for less mana, then it is gaining tempo. The problem comes from the use of burn.
Burn Aggro- the problem with making RDW tempo is it's reliance on burn for removal. You only gain tempo if the mana spent to cast the burn exceeds the mana spent to cast the spell and the damage it has done to you. Burn can do that, but it is often small gain, and only if the creature has not attacked.
Combo- rarely. Combo seeks to get it's combo and win, and while it does that it is simply holding it's opponent off and finding it's pieces, so it is fine with tempo loss as long as it gets it's combo in place.
Control- Often, though not always. In contrast with burn, control uses spells that, when properly cast, remove a threat that cost more to cast than the removal did. Path to Exile can remove a threat many times it's own cost and power level, as do counters. Ghostly Prison holds back creatures regardless of cost or power, as does color protection. Wrath of God...well you get the picture.
Any color has tempo cards, though Red fares the worst. Even that, however, is lousy with Haste and cheap beaters. Haste is tempo because it has the potential to attack one more time than any other creature, so it can deal more damage over time. Cheap beaters are situational tempo gain because the things that remove them almost always cost more to cast than they do.
everyone knows that aggro is a deck that relies on tempo. When you specifically say tempo deck you mean a deck like NLU, faeries, wizards, fish, ect that use cards that augment tempo like bounce/counterspells. You spend your cards to slow them down as you play fast efficient threats.
The definition of tempo deck is much different from the concept of tempo advantage. Tempo decks are based off of old countersliver builds that branched into a different direction later on.
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Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
The definition of tempo deck is much different from the concept of tempo advantage. Tempo decks are based off of old countersliver builds that branched into a different direction later on.
I mentioned aggro because of your comment. I have defined tempo and what a tempo deck in the article. If you disagree find some support for that position.
All the cards that make chrome mox any good for modern are banned. Not for any tempo or aggro based builds. You either flat out win with the card or it no good and when your winning with it usually don't involve creatures.
This is just not true. Chrome mox being unbanned would make some sort of artifact based control viable. It is more of a control card anyways, but most decks have such a tight mana curve that they don't get any use out of it. Control runs things like chalice of the void, thirst for knowledge, gifts ungiven, wrath of god,ect,ect. These spells are slightly too slow for modern without the speed upgrade that chrome mox will sometimes add. If you think about it about 23% of the time you will open with it, but that isn't all that impressive. The chances of drawing it greatly increase on turn 2-3 after it is too late for aggressive decks to really gain an advantage off of it. This is where mox shines because it helps control decks get out of the first phase of the game when they can only play path or mana leak. Just like any mana ramp spells you don't get an advantage off of it if you top out at 3 mana. This is why the zoo decks that run noble hierach run a few 4 drops.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
In the holiday spirit, enjoy playing with your 1% of the card pool. Ill try and break the format with new interactions and at least try all the cards in the format or even a certain color before discounting them as jank. Also I take whats said on the internet in general with a grain of salt. There is a difference between theorycrafting and actual playing. Sometimes they agree with each other, somethimes not. If someone said something does or doesnt work, I am the guy who will sleeve them up and play them to see.
One last thing people are being uninnovative in this format, at least the ones complaining. They want to play their pet cards or decks and have no intention of playing out side of them with out complaining. From the very announcement of the format Wotc was looking for something different, they wanted different decks and different interactions. Not Standard 3.0 or Legacy lite. If thats what you were looking for (not directed at any one person) you are going to be disappointed.
I am talking about ONE card in relation to ONE archetype. Im not discarding cards as "jank" at the rate you would like to portray me as doing.
Guess what? I sleeve them up and play also. Remember the myr summoning deck that people were wispering about early in the formats existence? Yeah... I sleeved that up. Stop acting like people that disagree with you are simply unninovative.
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Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Im quite happy with the band list, i like it how they keep baning cards from the OP decks that dominate. Which is fair enough and allows for other decks to emerge. And in by saying that i think they could ban 1 creature from each colour to help other decks emerge.
here are my recomindations;
Red - Kiki-Jiki - does twin need 16 cards to combo with?
Black - Bob - ran in ever deck and sick of seeing him
Green - Goofy - see above
Blue - Snapcaster - pretty OP like extra draw and creature
White - Kitchen finks - Birthing pod dont need infinite life, and is in ever deck
Artifact - Memite, affinity dont need 0 drop creatures :S BS
well yeah thats my thought on ballancing out the game, maybe one day
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Standard: pft, i love to see my cards depreciate in value once they rotate :S
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
LOL Bann memnite! Cranial plating is the problem and it is being watched closely. The U/R combo decks really irk me more than most people and honestly im surprised they didn't hak Twin n storm from the get go. Is it really worse/ better/ different that valakut?
I think some people wouldn't have taken the format seriously w/o some kind of competitive combo. Personally I feel that kind of deck is not healthy and Wotc seems to agree on some level, its already driving me away from the format. I would like to try Modern without: Fetch lands, Cranial plating, Twin, Grapeshot, Goyf and Bob, with nothing un baned from the curent list. You cant however say Snapcaster is not ok but BloodBraid is, so both could even go. I dont expect any of those, at least not for some time though, they dont want to shake the trust in the format much more.
Im quite happy with the band list, i like it how they keep baning cards from the OP decks that dominate. Which is fair enough and allows for other decks to emerge. And in by saying that i think they could ban 1 creature from each colour to help other decks emerge.
here are my recomindations;
Red - Kiki-Jiki - does twin need 16 cards to combo with?
Black - Bob - ran in ever deck and sick of seeing him
Green - Goofy - see above
Blue - Snapcaster - pretty OP like extra draw and creature
White - Kitchen finks - Birthing pod dont need infinite life, and is in ever deck
Artifact - Memite, affinity dont need 0 drop creatures :S BS
well yeah thats my thought on ballancing out the game, maybe one day
Okay, none of those will ever be banned. But if they did want to take out the top 4 archetypes (like they always seem to want to do) I could see Bloodbraid Elf, Gifts Ungiven, Arcbound Ravager, and Splinter Twin all getting the banhammer in March.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
LOL Bann memnite! Cranial plating is the problem and it is being watched closely. The U/R combo decks really irk me more than most people and honestly im surprised they didn't hak Twin n storm from the get go. Is it really worse/ better/ different that valakut?
I think some people wouldn't have taken the format seriously w/o some kind of competitive combo. Personally I feel that kind of deck is not healthy and Wotc seems to agree on some level, its already driving me away from the format. I would like to try Modern without: Fetch lands, Cranial plating, Twin, Grapeshot, Goyf and Bob, with nothing un baned from the curent list. You cant however say Snapcaster is not ok but BloodBraid is, so both could even go. I dont expect any of those, at least not for some time though, they dont want to shake the trust in the format much more.
Twin has been given a long leash because it's new and people were still grasping how good it is. Affinity is less of an issue because of just how well Ancient Grudge, Supression Field, Stony Silence, and other such hate cards absolutely wreck the deck.
Im quite happy with the band list, i like it how they keep baning cards from the OP decks that dominate. Which is fair enough and allows for other decks to emerge. And in by saying that i think they could ban 1 creature from each colour to help other decks emerge.
here are my recomindations;
Red - Kiki-Jiki - does twin need 16 cards to combo with?
Black - Bob - ran in ever deck and sick of seeing him
Green - Goofy - see above
Blue - Snapcaster - pretty OP like extra draw and creature
White - Kitchen finks - Birthing pod dont need infinite life, and is in ever deck
Artifact - Memite, affinity dont need 0 drop creatures :S BS
well yeah thats my thought on ballancing out the game, maybe one day
hold up so you want to ban every staple in the game? If you haven't noticed control isn't even doing good with snapcaster, and kitchen finks is not what you would ban from pod. Bannings should have as little bearing on the format as possible outside of hosing one deck. Melira would be the proper card to ban it a ban was in fact needed.
I would love to see goyf banned though. It was the single most powerful card in this format from its inception. Other cards made combos or decks, but goyf had the highest power level and still does. Goyf probably isn't going to be banned, but yeah.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
My problem with the banned list is that there are cards in the format that are FAR higher in power level and degeneracy, yet aren't banned.
Attacking for 3 on turn 2 with a wild nacatl is too good, but attacking for 6 on turn 2 with a cranial plating isn't? Turn 1 Hierarch, turn 2 Geist is far better than resolving most cards on the banned list, yet it hasn't been touched. I wish they'd just unban some of the lower level cards on the list (Ancestral Vision, Green Sun's Zenith, Valakut, Jitte), since having them on their is just looks foolish when there are other decks doing far more powerful things.
The thing with affinity is that there are 4CMC cards that read "you win the game against affinity". Plating is stupid and overpowered but affinity has to put good enough numbers for them to ban something, and they aren't. Affinity is doing well but that's it. SB some creeping corrosions, the red counterpart, kataki or ancient grudge and it's fine. Also, the plating equipped creature dies to a bolt or any removal.
The thing with affinity is that there are 4CMC cards that read "you win the game against affinity". Plating is stupid and overpowered but affinity has to put good enough numbers for them to ban something, and they aren't. Affinity is doing well but that's it. SB some creeping corrosions, the red counterpart, kataki or ancient grudge and it's fine. Also, the plating equipped creature dies to a bolt or any removal.
Plating has attach for :symb::symb: so often a removal spell doesn't really do anything. I'm not complaining that affinity is too good. I'm complaining that cards and strategies weaker than it are banned.
YOU need to stop pretending you actually know something about the format's combo decks.
Few, if any, combo decks want to play chrome.
It isn't if you have to give yourself major card disadvantage.
You know crawwurm shouldn't be used in storm deck. Am I "narrow sighted" now?
Jesus Christ, I swear. Stop saying that someone is "uninnovate" or not "creative enough" when they tell you something doesn't work. You don't have to agree, but for god's sakes don't throw out the MTG eqiuvalant of calling someone a poopy-heady. It immature, and obviosly an attempt to discredit someone's opinion without actually providing any real arguements as to why they are wrong.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
In the holiday spirit, enjoy playing with your 1% of the card pool. Ill try and break the format with new interactions and at least try all the cards in the format or even a certain color before discounting them as jank. Also I take whats said on the internet in general with a grain of salt. There is a difference between theorycrafting and actual playing. Sometimes they agree with each other, somethimes not. If someone said something does or doesnt work, I am the guy who will sleeve them up and play them to see.
One last thing people are being uninnovative in this format, at least the ones complaining. They want to play their pet cards or decks and have no intention of playing out side of them with out complaining. From the very announcement of the format Wotc was looking for something different, they wanted different decks and different interactions. Not Standard 3.0 or Legacy lite. If thats what you were looking for (not directed at any one person) you are going to be disappointed.
I know you say that this isn't aimed at anyone, but I know It is definitely aimed at me. I might not be the only one, but I know I am one of the ones. As for not being innovative that is a joke. I have went through every list that has existed in magic trying to find something. I have read every strategy article looking for something. I am coming up blank. The only decks that seem to be viable now are ones from other formats that are not on the ban list. The only control deck that is viable is esper teachings/gifts which is close enough to the same deck to be considered as such. I mean if goyf, bob, and BBE were all banned jund would not exist. Tons of control decks have that many important cards on the ban list. We need some unbans to make the format more varied, and we need PTQ results too show the competitive meta game which MTGO is pretty far from IMO.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
well look at what you need for a control deck. You need good card draw. We don't have good universal card draw anymore because it got banned. Now we have esper charm(which forces your deck to be esper gifts or esper teachings although both decks are really similar) or thirst for knowledge which takes up ~1/3 of your deck just to run. Chrome mox and artifact lands fixed this problem while making the artifacts you did run fast enough to actually matter.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
last time I checked tempo decks were blue decks. I mean you don't have tempo counterspells, flash creatures, ect without blue. This is even been the historical representation of it like since the beginning of the game.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
That's not necessarly true, most of them are Ux, but there are nonblue tempo decks, like Eva Green (R.I.P. :().
eva green is essentially black suicide with a splash. Black sui is an aggro deck.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I know right. It is the only barrier that is keeping several of my brews from being at least tier 1.5/2. It is just so important for control to get a little jump start to playing expensive spells.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
By your stick zoo is a tempo deck. So is jund, bant, ....................
all i wanted for christmas was chrome mox back lol.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
"Tempo is a term used in Magic: The Gathering to indicate the advantage gained when a player is able to play more or stronger cards in a shorter period of time due to efficient resource allocation.[1] A companion concept to card advantage, it is sometimes defined as the means by which a player gains additional options or decreases the options possessed by the opponent by means not directly pertaining to respective numbers of playable cards."- Wikipedia
Very simply, tempo is the rate at which you win the game. A tempo deck, therefor, is a deck that changes that rate to your advantage. The two most basic ways to do this is to make winning take longer for your opponent or make winning faster for you. Aggro is a form of tempo at it's very basic, though it is not thought of as such because it only increases the rate at which you win. This is a very inefficient form of gaining tempo advantage, but aggro can manage it due to it's nature- especially if they play creatures with Haste. The most efficient, and most common plan of action for tempo decks is to speed up your chance of winning while slowing down your opponent. This is why UG has traditionally been the best color combination for tempo decks because blue slows them down, while green speeds you up. Cards like Mystic Snake are classic examples of double duty, because you counter an opponent's (hopefully more expensive) spell and get a beater on the battlefield in one play.
It gets much more muddy the more you delve in to tempo. For example, Mystic Snake has great tempo potential, but if you cast it to counter Pulse Tracker and you are tapping your only 4 mana sources to do it, you have just lost tempo because your opponent may have lost the Tracker, but they have plenty of mana open to cast another spell. If you were to tap out to cast Mystic Snake in response to any spell your opponent cast, and there is an Aether Flash in play, then no tempo has been gained and you have no more gas left.
Control can be, and is often a form of tempo. If the spells a control player is casting are costing him less than those of his opponent, then the control player has mana left over to put a threat in the board and he has gained tempo if he does so. This is the reason that instant speed draw and flash-able threats are required for control. If there are only sorcery speed draw spells open to a control player then they loose tempo terribly because the mana spent to cast that draw spell means there is less mana open to counter or play a threat. By playing draw spells and threats at instant speed the control player can have mana at the time he needs it, and often have some left over to play an instant speed threat at the end of an opponent's turn when tapping out is least damaging. Control is also loosing tempo at times (mostly in the form of life loss), so the net gain is smaller than a focused tempo deck, but much of Control's plays are made with an eye towards tempo.
Another form of gaining tempo is by stalling an opponent, so cards like Ghostly Prison, Overgrown Battlement, and Traproot Kami can be tempo cards in the right deck, if your opponent is trying to win with creatures, so can cards that grant creatures protection from the color their opponent is playing.
Is Eldrazi Green a tempo deck? If we are talking classic tempo then no, not really. Classic tempo gains tempo steadily, and with each play. Every card and interaction is with steady tempo gain in mind, and tempo loss is to be non-existant (ideally). Eldrazi Green, however, gives up a lot of tempo whenever it casts a spell that just ramps mana that comes in to play tapped. It is all done with the idea of a MAJOR tempo boost eventually in order to cast an Egyptian God Card and win the game, but on a turn by turn basis most plays loose the player tempo. You could argue that almost any deck that wins has won with tempo, unless you are playing a coinflip deck, but a true tempo deck is built to gain tempo as often as possible.
Control can be tempo, but it does not have to be.
Tempo is one of those things that is never simply determined by a deck, unlike speed. If a deck is fast, it's fast. If a deck is built with an eye towards tempo it can cease to be a tempo deck if you are facing a deck you did not plan for, so it is never entirely up to the pilot of the deck.
Can it be tempo?
A great article for the understanding of Tempo is: My System - A guide to Tempo
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
everyone knows that aggro is a deck that relies on tempo. When you specifically say tempo deck you mean a deck like NLU, faeries, wizards, fish, ect that use cards that augment tempo like bounce/counterspells. You spend your cards to slow them down as you play fast efficient threats.
The definition of tempo deck is much different from the concept of tempo advantage. Tempo decks are based off of old countersliver builds that branched into a different direction later on.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
This is just not true. Chrome mox being unbanned would make some sort of artifact based control viable. It is more of a control card anyways, but most decks have such a tight mana curve that they don't get any use out of it. Control runs things like chalice of the void, thirst for knowledge, gifts ungiven, wrath of god,ect,ect. These spells are slightly too slow for modern without the speed upgrade that chrome mox will sometimes add. If you think about it about 23% of the time you will open with it, but that isn't all that impressive. The chances of drawing it greatly increase on turn 2-3 after it is too late for aggressive decks to really gain an advantage off of it. This is where mox shines because it helps control decks get out of the first phase of the game when they can only play path or mana leak. Just like any mana ramp spells you don't get an advantage off of it if you top out at 3 mana. This is why the zoo decks that run noble hierach run a few 4 drops.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
i think storm is the next banned list to make the game slower.
Guess what? I sleeve them up and play also. Remember the myr summoning deck that people were wispering about early in the formats existence? Yeah... I sleeved that up. Stop acting like people that disagree with you are simply unninovative.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
here are my recomindations;
Red - Kiki-Jiki - does twin need 16 cards to combo with?
Black - Bob - ran in ever deck and sick of seeing him
Green - Goofy - see above
Blue - Snapcaster - pretty OP like extra draw and creature
White - Kitchen finks - Birthing pod dont need infinite life, and is in ever deck
Artifact - Memite, affinity dont need 0 drop creatures :S BS
well yeah thats my thought on ballancing out the game, maybe one day
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
I think some people wouldn't have taken the format seriously w/o some kind of competitive combo. Personally I feel that kind of deck is not healthy and Wotc seems to agree on some level, its already driving me away from the format. I would like to try Modern without: Fetch lands, Cranial plating, Twin, Grapeshot, Goyf and Bob, with nothing un baned from the curent list. You cant however say Snapcaster is not ok but BloodBraid is, so both could even go. I dont expect any of those, at least not for some time though, they dont want to shake the trust in the format much more.
Okay, none of those will ever be banned. But if they did want to take out the top 4 archetypes (like they always seem to want to do) I could see Bloodbraid Elf, Gifts Ungiven, Arcbound Ravager, and Splinter Twin all getting the banhammer in March.
Twin has been given a long leash because it's new and people were still grasping how good it is. Affinity is less of an issue because of just how well Ancient Grudge, Supression Field, Stony Silence, and other such hate cards absolutely wreck the deck.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
hold up so you want to ban every staple in the game? If you haven't noticed control isn't even doing good with snapcaster, and kitchen finks is not what you would ban from pod. Bannings should have as little bearing on the format as possible outside of hosing one deck. Melira would be the proper card to ban it a ban was in fact needed.
I would love to see goyf banned though. It was the single most powerful card in this format from its inception. Other cards made combos or decks, but goyf had the highest power level and still does. Goyf probably isn't going to be banned, but yeah.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Attacking for 3 on turn 2 with a wild nacatl is too good, but attacking for 6 on turn 2 with a cranial plating isn't? Turn 1 Hierarch, turn 2 Geist is far better than resolving most cards on the banned list, yet it hasn't been touched. I wish they'd just unban some of the lower level cards on the list (Ancestral Vision, Green Sun's Zenith, Valakut, Jitte), since having them on their is just looks foolish when there are other decks doing far more powerful things.
Plating has attach for :symb::symb: so often a removal spell doesn't really do anything. I'm not complaining that affinity is too good. I'm complaining that cards and strategies weaker than it are banned.