Am I the only one who likes the art on Sliver Legion? I heard someone complain about it not being like the other slivers, it does say in the flavor text it is a unique mind. I love the card and love the artwork personally.
i think this card is Freakin' awesome just imagine zoo with this even on the draw u flex "Nutz" any mana drawing the extra card u can pitch and turning up the gas on tempo and it still taps for mana easily a 3 of most likely a 4 of
Unless she is enchanting the balloon, so that whoever holds it gets Jump.
Well yeah, of course in a world with magic many tasks are going to be aided at least by magic without a second thought. But she still uses the balloons, doesn't she? And Llanowar Mentor is still a mentor. Even if he uses magic in his mentoring it's not as simple as just summoning a Llanowar Elf. He's a mentor, for crying out loud, it's the flavour!
I'm guessing that what Apeiron means is that they may do some weird wordings and make abilities that seem like there should be something else to them, like the Sliver Legion's, and we will see nothing in FS to make them make sense. In later blocks we will see non creature permenants that count as having creature types, and other similar examples. FS won't just say, "Here is the future! Here is what you will see in years to come!" People will look at FS and say, "Hunh, I wonder why Sliver Legion is worded weird?" That may be the kinds of clues we are getting in FS, things that make us guess and use our minds to puzzle out.
Actually that's exactly what I meant. Sliver Legion may or may not be a subtle clue of things to come. The unusual wording might or might not matter. Or maybe there's something like this in the set:
Mistform Ultimus Memorial 4
Artifact
Mistform Ultimus Memorial is every creature type (even if it's not a creature)
Since it's a Sliver, it pumps Sliver creatures with the Legion and can tap for mana with a Gemhide Sliver in play (it says all Slivers right?). Also, can tap to prevent damage with Master Apothecary in play, or counter spells with Patron Wizard!
Seriously though, for all we know the guys at Wizards have already planned whatever they release 2 years from now, so they might as well write the card in a templating that makes sense then even if it sounds kinda weird right now.
when I said that the rest are possible i meant that they were one drops and might be the token that is created, but only for that reason. When I said that the Javelineers is my fav, i was meaning that I would like it to be that, I wasnt saying that it was the most likely or anything.
ok! i thought you were saying it the other way.
Mtg is avoiding white to have the ability of direct damage on players Icatian Javelineer was lucky to have that ability during the early times of magic in 90's after that i have never seen a creature that can inflict direct damge without any conditional form.
Many white cards can damage only creature in a conditional form or with an exchange the the most famous is "attacking or blocking creature "
There is no way you can have a non creature sliver. Sliver is a creature type and as such, only creatures can have it. As soon as a sliver becomes a permanent type other than creature, he is no longer a sliver.
Edit: Or am I wrong? The wording looks very suspicious indeed...
212.1b. When an object's type changes, the new type(s) replaces any existing types. Counters, effects, and damage affecting the object remain with it, even if they are meaningless to the new type. Similarly, when the subtypes of one of an object's types change, the new subtype(s) replaces any existing subtypes of that type. If an object's type is removed, the subtypes of its old type don't exist in any way under the new type. Those subtypes disappear completely for the entire time the object's type is removed. Removing an object's subtype doesn't affect its types at all.
Also, regarding the "Land - Sliver" or (noncreature) "Artifact - Sliver", I was specifically asking the pointed questions about subtypes some time ago, and the [O]fficial answer is, you can't have different permanent/card types share a same subtype. The way subtypes exist currently is a templating mess, but that's how it works and is going to for at least some time.
Example of a mess is that *object* that is Land Creature - Forest Elf still has its land and creature subtypes separated, but the template doesn't provide *any* way to show that.
Also, regarding the "Land - Sliver" or (noncreature) "Artifact - Sliver", I was specifically asking the pointed questions about subtypes some time ago, and the [O]fficial answer is, you can't have different permanent/card types share a same subtype. The way subtypes exist currently is a templating mess, but that's how it works and is going to for at least some time.
Example of a mess is that *object* that is Land Creature - Forest Elf still has its land and creature subtypes separated, but the template doesn't provide *any* way to show that.
Insect is a subtype of both artifact creatures and non-artifact creatures; and Arcane is a subtype of both instants and sorceries.
I disagree that subtypes as they currently stand is a templating mess. There is certainly no rules problem with "Land Creature - Forest Elf," and it's not the least bit confusing either once you accept that something is both a creature and a land. There is nothing in the rules, nor is there any need, to force Forest to be linked to the land type, nor Elf to the creature type. For instance, the rules are perfectly happy with:
Creature - Forest
It would be a creature that has the ability "T: Add G to your mana pool" without the text (since the rules specify that anything with the subtype "Forest" has that ability).
Nor would the comprehensive rules as they currently stand have any problem with
Land - Elf
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From the CR:
212.1e If an instruction requires choosing a subtype, you must choose one, and only one, existing subtype, and the subtype you choose must be for the appropriate type. For example, you can’t choose a land type if an instruction requires choosing a creature type. (Use the Oracle card reference to determine whether a creature type exists; see rule 200.2. You can also find complete lists of subtypes in the glossary at the end of this document under “Creature Types,” “Land Types,” etc.)
Example: When choosing a creature type, “Merfolk” or “Wizard” is acceptable, but “Merfolk Wizard” is not. Words like “artifact,” “opponent,” “Swamp,” or “truck” can’t be chosen because they aren’t creature types.
205.3d Most card types each have their own unique set of possible subtypes. (You can find complete lists of subtypes in the glossary at the end of this document under “Creature Types,” “Land Types,” and so on.) However, instants and sorceries can share subtypes. Collectively, instant and sorcery subtypes are called spell types.
Lands have subtypes that are unique to lands (Desert, Urza's, Forest...)
Creatures have subtypes that are unique to creatures (Wizard, Goblin, Thrull...)
Enchantments have subtypes that are unique to enchantments (Aura and Shrine)
Artifacts have a single current subtype (Equipment)
Instants and Sorceries can share subtypes with each other (currently they only have Arcane)
I actually kind of like the art on the Sliver Legion. I think it gives a nice surreal view of the nascent sliver lord.
The flavor text says it's young, but the hive's mind is just starting to see the world.
I think the art gives that sort of surrealist view of the young mind's eye coming into focus.....if you get the metaphor, but I guess that's what art is for?
I really like the art for the elf. I've always liked how the llanowar elves were always illustrated more as warriors instead of more tree-hugging types. The mentor is the daddy of them all, and he looks like a badass. nice
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but he has a point with the Forest thing. just take a look at the Rav Duels, that they produce mana is in the reminder text. unless that only applies to Land - Forest, or Snow Land - Forest. but then that wouldnt make sense... i confused.
I'm kind of surprised no one has noticed this yet.
If Sliver was truely becoming a supertype, then why does the Sliver Legion NOT have it as a supertype? It would seem kind of self defeating if it didn't and Sliver was a supertype.
So, using common sense, what can you glimpse from Sliver Legion? Only that WotC is changing the way they refer to creatures, not making Sliver a supertype.
Also, don't take the bold as yelling, because it's not. Take it more as trying to me trying to grab peoples eyes, because I've come to learn that unless you do something like that, or are a frequent rumor mill poster, people will ignore you.
but he has a point with the Forest thing. just take a look at the Rav Duels, that they produce mana is in the reminder text. unless that only applies to Land - Forest, or Snow Land - Forest. but then that wouldnt make sense... i confused.
Nope, he doesn't, and Imperfectbeing is 100% right -- he has no slightest idea what he's talking about. Not to mention that he argues with the wall (i.e., with points he made himself -- I never said that plain creature can't have same creature subtype as artifact creature, enchantment creature, etc; and instant and sorceries are specifically mentioned in the rules to have same subtypes). As for point about the forest (or other basic land types) -- it is also special rule. Covering "basic land [sub]types". Creature - Forest, even if it were possible, would not have "T: G" unless it would also be a land.
And the template is a mess because it is a mess as a *template*. That is, you have to look into *WHAT* is written, not only into *HOW*. To show that better, as apparently, seeing the Forest behind the trees is too much to ask of some people, currently it is:
In that form, unless you check the [Super//Sub]types themselves, you cannot correctly parse it. Moreover, currently it doesn't even let you correctly parse supertypes from types, except that supertypes are adjectives, but this approach has one slight problem: in English, you cannot always distinguish between different parts of speech.
Edit: and his "Land -- Elf" and "Creature -- Forest" examples are just a perfect illustration of just why the current template *is* a mess
Is there any possibility that the previews WotC sent to Srye are not the final templating? That someone at Wizards accidentally attached the wrong .JPG to the e-mail?
<sinp>
So, using common sense, what can you glimpse from Sliver Legion? Only that WotC is changing the way they refer to creatures, not making Sliver a supertype.
< more snipping>
Only one thing regarding this: this would mean they'd have to do (again) a massive gatherer update. Because, for instance, D-storm would say now "Search your library for a Dragon creature card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library."
Right?
So yah, that's pretty cool, maybe there will be a cycle of creatures to create tokens and that "giant art" in the other thread belongs to one of them. Anyways, thought I hate slivers, after seeing the new overlord, I might just hate slivers even more.
Is there any possibility that the previews WotC sent to Srye are not the final templating? That someone at Wizards accidentally attached the wrong .JPG to the e-mail?
Probably not.
For a sliver card to have an extra word that was never there before doesn't really make sense as a 'mistake'.
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Each creature gets +1/+1 for each other creature in play that shares a creature type with it.
And compare to the sliver legion text:
All Sliver creatures get +1/+1 for each other Sliver in play.
Looks to me like they were using the verbatim when they templated sliver legion and then got confused when fixing the template. My guess is someone told the editor to remove the "creatures" word instead of saying remove the words creatures. Or something like that.
It's not like they don't make silly easily catchable mistakes now and then, just like having the wrong guild symbol on Hypervolt Grasp.
Either that or you can chalk up the weird wording to nostalgia and trying to make the sliver more like coat of arms. Much like the horribly lamely named Bonesplitter Sliver. Sometimes I believe they think we all have an attention span the size of a golf ball and they need to hit us over the head with the refrences. Kinda surprised this wasn't called Arms Sliver or something equaly lame. By the way it being called Sliver Legion is most likely a nod to the set. They love there two for one refrences.
It can't be ALL terrible in limited, although pretty bad. At the very least it can turn late game lands when in topdeck mode into a 1/1 chump that can add to an X spell if needed. Yeah, thats a stretch.
It'll be interesting to see this make any sort of dent in constructed, as it's fairly slow.....although you can efficiently accel into 5 mana on turn 3 without any extreme card quality loss.
Forest, Mentor, go.
Forest, Elves, make Elves with Mentor discarding Forest, go.
Forest, 5 mana.
A lot of fast green mana on hand makes for a nice Hurricane in a pinch [Hurricane did beat Earthquake in the You Decide for Xth, right?].
Even as I dictate its uses I just see it as being a lame 1/1.
Although, it has major props for the unique ability. It's cool and fun, but will hardly be a star in any format.
Sliver Legion.....
Another rainbowed 7/7 Legendary Sliver. A coat of arms on legs. Really big legs.
I can't help but to echo the confusion with the wording choice. Every other Sliver just grant abilites to 'All Slivers', where as this card specifies Sliver critters. As far as I can tell the only two possibilities to make it necessary would be to create a Sliver supertype, or it's a printed error a la Hypervolt Grasp. My guess is it's an error, as a Sliver supertype just sounds and seems very odd.
Anyway, it's exciting to see the new stuff coming in. Previews start on MTG.com in the next couple weeks, right?
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If Sliver Legion it had flash it would be alot better. But since it doesn't Mystical Teachings can't get it, maybe we'll get a sliver with that gives all slivers flash (like Teferi's wording).
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Well yeah, of course in a world with magic many tasks are going to be aided at least by magic without a second thought. But she still uses the balloons, doesn't she? And Llanowar Mentor is still a mentor. Even if he uses magic in his mentoring it's not as simple as just summoning a Llanowar Elf. He's a mentor, for crying out loud, it's the flavour!
Actually that's exactly what I meant. Sliver Legion may or may not be a subtle clue of things to come. The unusual wording might or might not matter. Or maybe there's something like this in the set:
Mistform Ultimus Memorial
4
Artifact
Mistform Ultimus Memorial is every creature type (even if it's not a creature)
Since it's a Sliver, it pumps Sliver creatures with the Legion and can tap for mana with a Gemhide Sliver in play (it says all Slivers right?). Also, can tap to prevent damage with Master Apothecary in play, or counter spells with Patron Wizard!
Seriously though, for all we know the guys at Wizards have already planned whatever they release 2 years from now, so they might as well write the card in a templating that makes sense then even if it sounds kinda weird right now.
ok! i thought you were saying it the other way.
Mtg is avoiding white to have the ability of direct damage on players Icatian Javelineer was lucky to have that ability during the early times of magic in 90's after that i have never seen a creature that can inflict direct damge without any conditional form.
Many white cards can damage only creature in a conditional form or with an exchange the the most famous is "attacking or blocking creature "
212.1b. When an object's type changes, the new type(s) replaces any existing types. Counters, effects, and damage affecting the object remain with it, even if they are meaningless to the new type. Similarly, when the subtypes of one of an object's types change, the new subtype(s) replaces any existing subtypes of that type. If an object's type is removed, the subtypes of its old type don't exist in any way under the new type. Those subtypes disappear completely for the entire time the object's type is removed. Removing an object's subtype doesn't affect its types at all.
Also, regarding the "Land - Sliver" or (noncreature) "Artifact - Sliver", I was specifically asking the pointed questions about subtypes some time ago, and the [O]fficial answer is, you can't have different permanent/card types share a same subtype. The way subtypes exist currently is a templating mess, but that's how it works and is going to for at least some time.
Example of a mess is that *object* that is Land Creature - Forest Elf still has its land and creature subtypes separated, but the template doesn't provide *any* way to show that.
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How Creatures Die
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Insect is a subtype of both artifact creatures and non-artifact creatures; and Arcane is a subtype of both instants and sorceries.
I disagree that subtypes as they currently stand is a templating mess. There is certainly no rules problem with "Land Creature - Forest Elf," and it's not the least bit confusing either once you accept that something is both a creature and a land. There is nothing in the rules, nor is there any need, to force Forest to be linked to the land type, nor Elf to the creature type. For instance, the rules are perfectly happy with:
Creature - Forest
It would be a creature that has the ability "T: Add G to your mana pool" without the text (since the rules specify that anything with the subtype "Forest" has that ability).
Nor would the comprehensive rules as they currently stand have any problem with
Land - Elf
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The same way lands can be creatures, as in Natural Affinity.
Also, if you're looking for more of a flavor-explanation, think of dryads in legend and mythology: humanoids that are also trees.
- Jon Finkel believes in maintaining a healthy, balanced diet. He gets all his fiber from eating Magic cards for breakfast, and all his protein from eating Magic players for lunch.
From the CR:
212.1e If an instruction requires choosing a subtype, you must choose one, and only one, existing subtype, and the subtype you choose must be for the appropriate type. For example, you can’t choose a land type if an instruction requires choosing a creature type. (Use the Oracle card reference to determine whether a creature type exists; see rule 200.2. You can also find complete lists of subtypes in the glossary at the end of this document under “Creature Types,” “Land Types,” etc.)
Example: When choosing a creature type, “Merfolk” or “Wizard” is acceptable, but “Merfolk Wizard” is not. Words like “artifact,” “opponent,” “Swamp,” or “truck” can’t be chosen because they aren’t creature types.
205.3d Most card types each have their own unique set of possible subtypes. (You can find complete lists of subtypes in the glossary at the end of this document under “Creature Types,” “Land Types,” and so on.) However, instants and sorceries can share subtypes. Collectively, instant and sorcery subtypes are called spell types.
Lands have subtypes that are unique to lands (Desert, Urza's, Forest...)
Creatures have subtypes that are unique to creatures (Wizard, Goblin, Thrull...)
Enchantments have subtypes that are unique to enchantments (Aura and Shrine)
Artifacts have a single current subtype (Equipment)
Instants and Sorceries can share subtypes with each other (currently they only have Arcane)
The flavor text says it's young, but the hive's mind is just starting to see the world.
I think the art gives that sort of surrealist view of the young mind's eye coming into focus.....if you get the metaphor, but I guess that's what art is for?
I really like the art for the elf. I've always liked how the llanowar elves were always illustrated more as warriors instead of more tree-hugging types. The mentor is the daddy of them all, and he looks like a badass. nice
peace
but he has a point with the Forest thing. just take a look at the Rav Duels, that they produce mana is in the reminder text. unless that only applies to Land - Forest, or Snow Land - Forest. but then that wouldnt make sense... i confused.
If Sliver was truely becoming a supertype, then why does the Sliver Legion NOT have it as a supertype? It would seem kind of self defeating if it didn't and Sliver was a supertype.
So, using common sense, what can you glimpse from Sliver Legion? Only that WotC is changing the way they refer to creatures, not making Sliver a supertype.
Also, don't take the bold as yelling, because it's not. Take it more as trying to me trying to grab peoples eyes, because I've come to learn that unless you do something like that, or are a frequent rumor mill poster, people will ignore you.
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Nope, he doesn't, and Imperfectbeing is 100% right -- he has no slightest idea what he's talking about. Not to mention that he argues with the wall (i.e., with points he made himself -- I never said that plain creature can't have same creature subtype as artifact creature, enchantment creature, etc; and instant and sorceries are specifically mentioned in the rules to have same subtypes). As for point about the forest (or other basic land types) -- it is also special rule. Covering "basic land [sub]types". Creature - Forest, even if it were possible, would not have "T: G" unless it would also be a land.
And the template is a mess because it is a mess as a *template*. That is, you have to look into *WHAT* is written, not only into *HOW*. To show that better, as apparently, seeing the Forest behind the trees is too much to ask of some people, currently it is:
<Supertype 1> ... <Supertype N> <Type 1> ... <Type N> -- <Subtype 1> ... <Subtype N>
In that form, unless you check the [Super//Sub]types themselves, you cannot correctly parse it. Moreover, currently it doesn't even let you correctly parse supertypes from types, except that supertypes are adjectives, but this approach has one slight problem: in English, you cannot always distinguish between different parts of speech.
Edit: and his "Land -- Elf" and "Creature -- Forest" examples are just a perfect illustration of just why the current template *is* a mess
Only one thing regarding this: this would mean they'd have to do (again) a massive gatherer update. Because, for instance, D-storm would say now "Search your library for a Dragon creature card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library."
Right?
Probably not.
For a sliver card to have an extra word that was never there before doesn't really make sense as a 'mistake'.
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Uh, why not? Look at the text for coat of arms.
Each creature gets +1/+1 for each other creature in play that shares a creature type with it.
And compare to the sliver legion text:
All Sliver creatures get +1/+1 for each other Sliver in play.
Looks to me like they were using the verbatim when they templated sliver legion and then got confused when fixing the template. My guess is someone told the editor to remove the "creatures" word instead of saying remove the words creatures. Or something like that.
It's not like they don't make silly easily catchable mistakes now and then, just like having the wrong guild symbol on Hypervolt Grasp.
Either that or you can chalk up the weird wording to nostalgia and trying to make the sliver more like coat of arms. Much like the horribly lamely named Bonesplitter Sliver. Sometimes I believe they think we all have an attention span the size of a golf ball and they need to hit us over the head with the refrences. Kinda surprised this wasn't called Arms Sliver or something equaly lame. By the way it being called Sliver Legion is most likely a nod to the set. They love there two for one refrences.
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It can't be ALL terrible in limited, although pretty bad. At the very least it can turn late game lands when in topdeck mode into a 1/1 chump that can add to an X spell if needed. Yeah, thats a stretch.
It'll be interesting to see this make any sort of dent in constructed, as it's fairly slow.....although you can efficiently accel into 5 mana on turn 3 without any extreme card quality loss.
Forest, Mentor, go.
Forest, Elves, make Elves with Mentor discarding Forest, go.
Forest, 5 mana.
A lot of fast green mana on hand makes for a nice Hurricane in a pinch [Hurricane did beat Earthquake in the You Decide for Xth, right?].
Even as I dictate its uses I just see it as being a lame 1/1.
Although, it has major props for the unique ability. It's cool and fun, but will hardly be a star in any format.
Sliver Legion.....
Another rainbowed 7/7 Legendary Sliver. A coat of arms on legs. Really big legs.
I can't help but to echo the confusion with the wording choice. Every other Sliver just grant abilites to 'All Slivers', where as this card specifies Sliver critters. As far as I can tell the only two possibilities to make it necessary would be to create a Sliver supertype, or it's a printed error a la Hypervolt Grasp. My guess is it's an error, as a Sliver supertype just sounds and seems very odd.
Anyway, it's exciting to see the new stuff coming in. Previews start on MTG.com in the next couple weeks, right?
Drop by my Helpdesk if you have any questions/concerns on the Limited forum.
Excited for M13 Limited? What do you think the format will look like? Head over to the limited forum and let us know what you think.
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