i think the Kithkin is pretty terrible. creatures like that are almost useless without evasion. the obvious comparison in Standard is to Ohran Viper which is slightly better and still isn't heavily played. The obvious comparison historically is to Ophidian which was exceptional in exactly 1 deck and never playable again once you couldn't play it in the same deck as Forbid and Nevinyrral's Disk.
not great. its gonna take a stretch to find a deck that wants to use this creature instead of one of the numerous other quality 3 drops in the format. even for a mono-white deck, which is always desperate for card advantage, its probably better to get slightly more passive card advantage from stuff like Reveillark or Militia's Pride.
nope, i don't like it. seems too far below the curve. i'd start to look at it more favorably if it had flying or if it cost 1 less mana. as is i don't think i'll use it.
Shield of the Oversoul: like the mechanic generally, and I'm happy to see that green has 'officially' adopted indestructible as one of its themes - good way to get around green's traditional vulnerability to creature kill and the weakness of regeneration.
Augur: Fun idea - something that fits better on a gold card than my conception of what a hybrid ought to do, though (i.e. something that ought to be equally at home in either colour in isolation).
Safehold Elite: The keyword that seems to fit is persist - green and white are both doing a lot more recursion to play than in the past, and white now seems to be the colour of reanimating weenies. Wither, the other option, seems very unwhite. A 2-mana reanimating bear would be a nice little creature, and similar to Rav's Transluminant (another clue that it's a likely ability for green/white).
I am becoming incredibly happy that I invested in a foil playset of Idyllic Tutors.
The green white enchantment is very, very good. It's going to be played in a green white aggro deck, but we'll see if only green or only white decks end up running it (I could see green decks with it).
The Kithkin is cool. I'm disappointed that he lacks evasion, but eh, that can be fixed.
Man, top tier decks are gonna have to be able to handle for a turn 4 Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers with Shield. A 5/6 Vigilance, Indestructible, Flying dude is something my deck sure can't deal with at that point in the game! But with so much left unknown in this set I'm sure something that fits the bill will turn up (else I'll just have to add some O-rings...)
But if your opponent has played that new white über-enchantment that shrouds all your guys and enchantments on turn 2, how the heck do you get rid of him at all?
^^ i think they based the "indestructible" clause after timber protector.. it would be odd if it were the other way around... meaning green giving the "flying" ability...
That kithkin guy is the Ophidian everyone's been waiting for. Lifegain and card draw on a 2/2 body for a mere 3 mana is quite heavy in awesomesauce if you ask me.
I think that this aura sort of justifies the fakeness of that one land aura we saw where it was simply :symgw::symgw: that gave all white creatures & green creatures +1/+1 each.
Simple keyword...Vigilance? Lifelink? Would it be within white and/or green's abilities to get wither?
Decent array of cards we have. I'm liking Shadowmoor much more than Lorwyn/Morningtide at the moment.
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easiest way to kill indestructible creatures is to cause your opponent to sacrifice them. Cruel Edict is in the core set, it may become more playable if Shield of the Oversoul becomes popular. The other solution is to reduce toughness to zero. There are many many -1/-1 counters in Shadowmoor so that should be a bit easier to do than it currently is.
But if your opponent has played that new white über-enchantment that shrouds all your guys and enchantments on turn 2, how the heck do you get rid of him at all?
I'm gonna go ahead and quote myself cause everyone seems to miss that part.
White Über-enchantment 1W
Enchantment
Creatures and enchantments you control have shroud.
That's a rumored card, and coming from the imp it's fairly certain that it's real. So back to the original question, how the **** will you get rid of a WG creature with Shield in a situation like that? Of course the shield would have to be played before the other enchantment, but it can still happen. No Nameless, no God/damn, no maw etc etc... the only thing that comes to mind is Cruel Edict (as long as they have no other creatures on the board) or Evacuation, which noone plays. Anything else that might work?
I'm gonna go ahead and quote myself cause everyone seems to miss that part.
White Über-enchantment 1W
Enchantment
Creatures and enchantments you control have shroud.
That's a rumored card, and coming from the imp it's fairly certain that it's real. So back to the original question, how the **** will you get rid of a WG creature with Shield in a situation like that? Of course the shield would have to be played before the other enchantment, but it can still happen. No Nameless, no God/damn, no maw etc etc... the only thing that comes to mind is Cruel Edict (as long as they have no other creatures on the board) or Evacuation, which noone plays. Anything else that might work?
Nameless Inversion works just fine, as does Peppersmoke, Festercreep and any other card that uses -x counters. Giving a creature -1/-1 or +1/-1 will kill it if it's a 1/1 even if the aura is on it, since the -1 part of the counters that affect toughness kills the creature as a state based effect. No creature can have a 0 toughness in the game at any time, it'll die as a state based effect.
So, there's more than enough things to kill the creature even with the aura of indestructability on it.:D
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It makes me think though, would anyone actually use it with a troll? That or Doran and maybe Wilt Leaf Liege. Gotta see what other green/white elf cards come up.
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Found myself agreeing with most of this post about Cavern of souls and countermagic.
Nameless Inversion works just fine, as does Peppersmoke, Festercreep and any other card that uses -x counters.
Those won't work if the creature has Shroud from the white enchantment. However, I believe Wither will still win in the end, which is probably why they are willing to do more with Indestructible in this set.
I'm really annoyed at hybrid cards that are really multicolor. The ability on the kithkin should go on a 1WU card, since it's not by any means something each color could get on its own. I'm sick and tired of all the color pie meddling, to be honest. It's a shame that such lazy designs have to be in the same set as some of the other truly good ones.
EDIT: Oh, and for what it's worth, my money's on Vigilance for the elf.
The elf's creature type is scout, which traditionally has a flavor link with landwalk. That would make quite a bit of sense, especially as landwalk traditionally doesn't push the cost very much. Flash is also potentially legit, and fits somewhat with the scout type.
My first instinct was vigilance, but I think that's unlikely now. I don't think he's be a scout. Plus we have the analogue in X of WW for a vigilance 2/2. This would be strictly better (which isn't always a problem). Lifelink would be pretty overpowered on this guy for this cost. I could see lifelink at {g/w} {g/w}, but not at this price.
The enchantment is quite nice, but I think the current block has plenty of ways to get around indestructible, so it won't be terribly oppressive at common. The kith seems alright, if you have a way to get him through. He's better than dimir cutthroat primarily because the format is much faster, especially in limited, than it was in Rav.
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re: uber-enchantment. Why would they basically redo Privileged Position again so soon (and pretty much utterly obsolete it in the process)? I doubt this is a real card.
re: using Edicts as an answer to indestructible guys. How often will your desired target be the only creature they control? Further, how often will ONLY have 1 creature on the board? I"m not saying it doesn't work...I'm just saying it's hardly a reliable plan. I'd keep looking..
It appears -1/-1 counters are probably what they're pushing people to use. It's a fine plan. They just need to make sure there's enough of these effects or people will start to see indestructible as unfun.
The best part of the shield IMO, is the fact that it is a common. I mean, I do drafts and sealed events quite a bit, so the fact that I will prolly get to run somewhere between 1 and a playset should I draft white,green, or white/green is going to be awesomesauce. Especially come the prerelease.
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I don't see what all the talk is over this hybrid 2/2. Green has better things to play and white gets yet another grizzly bear with one ability?
Unless I'm missing something, I don't see why you guys care at all about this card. (Aside from trying to figure it out just for the sake of figuring it out, which is fine.)
People seem to be focusing on the indestructible part too much. This is the only mention of indestructible in the entire set. It's not like it's overloaded with indestructible creatures. It's true that this is a card that this is the only common (that I can think of, at least), that is/makes something indestructible besides a mana producer, but that doesn't mean it's going to be running rampant and making everything impossible to kill.
I think a two card combo, not including the creature itself, to get a flying, shroud, indestructible is not some huge problem that needs to be worried about. Indestructible commons in general are not a huge problem in the set, because, even besides all the -1/-1 counters making them easier to kill than usual, this is the only common that gives creatures indestructible.
Unless I'm missing something, I don't see why you guys care at all about this card. (Aside from trying to figure it out just for the sake of figuring it out, which is fine.)
I think figuring it out for the sake of figuring it out is most of why people care about it.
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the augery's good. i really like the shield, howevere. major draft house! and the hybrid grizzly bear looks just that. i'd get that too with the shield.
shield would be extremely overpowered in any other environment, but with almost all shadowmoor removal being in the form of -1/-1 counters, it doesn't help all that much. still godly if you're opponent isn't playing -1/-1.
I'm really annoyed at hybrid cards that are really multicolor. The ability on the kithkin should go on a 1WU card, since it's not by any means something each color could get on its own. I'm sick and tired of all the color pie meddling, to be honest. It's a shame that such lazy designs have to be in the same set as some of the other truly good ones.
EDIT: Oh, and for what it's worth, my money's on Vigilance for the elf.
Well, in all honesty straight card advantage has never been a strong suit of white's, but Covalescent Care has always been a fave card of mine....and really, MaRo said himself that there will be at least a little color bleeding in this set. This just means that UW/Mono-U/Mono-W got a powerful aggro-control tool. Nothing new imho from any other set (for example, scry is clearly more of a U ability, yet every color got some of it in 5D and FS).
The Aura is nice, but it is not overpowered. You still need a creature, and barring some kind of other effect the creature will still be susceptible to -X/-X and bounce, etc. I for one would actually rather play Moldervine Cloak or Jitte or Armadillo Cloak (or maybe I just like old school stuff).
not great. its gonna take a stretch to find a deck that wants to use this creature instead of one of the numerous other quality 3 drops in the format. even for a mono-white deck, which is always desperate for card advantage, its probably better to get slightly more passive card advantage from stuff like Reveillark or Militia's Pride.
nope, i don't like it. seems too far below the curve. i'd start to look at it more favorably if it had flying or if it cost 1 less mana. as is i don't think i'll use it.
Shield of the Oversoul: like the mechanic generally, and I'm happy to see that green has 'officially' adopted indestructible as one of its themes - good way to get around green's traditional vulnerability to creature kill and the weakness of regeneration.
Augur: Fun idea - something that fits better on a gold card than my conception of what a hybrid ought to do, though (i.e. something that ought to be equally at home in either colour in isolation).
Safehold Elite: The keyword that seems to fit is persist - green and white are both doing a lot more recursion to play than in the past, and white now seems to be the colour of reanimating weenies. Wither, the other option, seems very unwhite. A 2-mana reanimating bear would be a nice little creature, and similar to Rav's Transluminant (another clue that it's a likely ability for green/white).
Phil
The green white enchantment is very, very good. It's going to be played in a green white aggro deck, but we'll see if only green or only white decks end up running it (I could see green decks with it).
The Kithkin is cool. I'm disappointed that he lacks evasion, but eh, that can be fixed.
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But if your opponent has played that new white über-enchantment that shrouds all your guys and enchantments on turn 2, how the heck do you get rid of him at all?
I think that this aura sort of justifies the fakeness of that one land aura we saw where it was simply :symgw::symgw: that gave all white creatures & green creatures +1/+1 each.
Simple keyword...Vigilance? Lifelink? Would it be within white and/or green's abilities to get wither?
Decent array of cards we have. I'm liking Shadowmoor much more than Lorwyn/Morningtide at the moment.
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Yeah, that would work. If it wasn't for the fact that it's indestructible.
I'm gonna go ahead and quote myself cause everyone seems to miss that part.
White Über-enchantment 1W
Enchantment
Creatures and enchantments you control have shroud.
That's a rumored card, and coming from the imp it's fairly certain that it's real. So back to the original question, how the **** will you get rid of a WG creature with Shield in a situation like that? Of course the shield would have to be played before the other enchantment, but it can still happen. No Nameless, no God/damn, no maw etc etc... the only thing that comes to mind is Cruel Edict (as long as they have no other creatures on the board) or Evacuation, which noone plays. Anything else that might work?
Nameless Inversion works just fine, as does Peppersmoke, Festercreep and any other card that uses -x counters. Giving a creature -1/-1 or +1/-1 will kill it if it's a 1/1 even if the aura is on it, since the -1 part of the counters that affect toughness kills the creature as a state based effect. No creature can have a 0 toughness in the game at any time, it'll die as a state based effect.
So, there's more than enough things to kill the creature even with the aura of indestructability on it.:D
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Those won't work if the creature has Shroud from the white enchantment. However, I believe Wither will still win in the end, which is probably why they are willing to do more with Indestructible in this set.
EDIT: Oh, and for what it's worth, my money's on Vigilance for the elf.
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My first instinct was vigilance, but I think that's unlikely now. I don't think he's be a scout. Plus we have the analogue in X of WW for a vigilance 2/2. This would be strictly better (which isn't always a problem). Lifelink would be pretty overpowered on this guy for this cost. I could see lifelink at {g/w} {g/w}, but not at this price.
The enchantment is quite nice, but I think the current block has plenty of ways to get around indestructible, so it won't be terribly oppressive at common. The kith seems alright, if you have a way to get him through. He's better than dimir cutthroat primarily because the format is much faster, especially in limited, than it was in Rav.
MTGS stats (won/played)
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re: using Edicts as an answer to indestructible guys. How often will your desired target be the only creature they control? Further, how often will ONLY have 1 creature on the board? I"m not saying it doesn't work...I'm just saying it's hardly a reliable plan. I'd keep looking..
It appears -1/-1 counters are probably what they're pushing people to use. It's a fine plan. They just need to make sure there's enough of these effects or people will start to see indestructible as unfun.
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Unless I'm missing something, I don't see why you guys care at all about this card. (Aside from trying to figure it out just for the sake of figuring it out, which is fine.)
I think a two card combo, not including the creature itself, to get a flying, shroud, indestructible is not some huge problem that needs to be worried about. Indestructible commons in general are not a huge problem in the set, because, even besides all the -1/-1 counters making them easier to kill than usual, this is the only common that gives creatures indestructible.
I think figuring it out for the sake of figuring it out is most of why people care about it.
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Well, in all honesty straight card advantage has never been a strong suit of white's, but Covalescent Care has always been a fave card of mine....and really, MaRo said himself that there will be at least a little color bleeding in this set. This just means that UW/Mono-U/Mono-W got a powerful aggro-control tool. Nothing new imho from any other set (for example, scry is clearly more of a U ability, yet every color got some of it in 5D and FS).
The Aura is nice, but it is not overpowered. You still need a creature, and barring some kind of other effect the creature will still be susceptible to -X/-X and bounce, etc. I for one would actually rather play Moldervine Cloak or Jitte or Armadillo Cloak (or maybe I just like old school stuff).
Don't forget to bring your hammers!
And your edicts!