I suppose, but at the end of the day I think creatures like this, that don't have an ability that has an impact on the game immediately like riever demon, are kinda less important in edh in comparison to REALLY powerful sorceries/instants that turn the tide because it is designed for multiplayer.
I have played too many games with Sedris Reanimator, winning more than just a few of them off the backs of creatures like this card (including the Red Akroma on one occasion) to think that creatures with only keywords or whatever you want to describe them as, are of little use.
Yes, EDH is designed to be a multi-player format, where creatures that don't have alot of impact on the game are of less value than you would think. However EDH is also a format of Magic the Gathering. And as I understand Wizards point of view on the matter, Magic was designed to be won or lost not by sorceries and instants alone, but primarily by Creatures.
Also, how is this card, that is immune to most targeted removal, not a good card in EDH? There are just as many decks in EDH that don't pack white or blue removal as there are decks that do. Granted, most EDH decks pack mass removal over targetted removal, so I could see your point there. However I still see this card as particularly good even in an EDH environment. This is the kind of card that says "Answer me now, or forever hold your peace" kind of like the white and red akroma's, which are heavily played in EDH.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Time Stretch? I've hardcasted Progenitus multiple times in EDH. I could even cast Autochthon Wurm if I wanted to in a token producing deck. Mana cost isn't really too much of an issue in the format. What matters is whether the card does something awesome when you play it. I'd say a 6/6 flying, first strike, vigilance, lifelink, pro green and red makes an impact. Hell, the first strike even matters in EDH.
And I would say it makes LESS of an impact here because it's a multiplayer format and it really doesn't do anything until your next turn. At that point someone could just drop a big massive instant/sorcery and punish everyone. EDH is a dynamic format and this card isn't dynamic. Really it's just a target that says,"Find a solution or you'll regret it." It's not the most important part of EDH, the "rattlesnake". The card that says,"Kill me and you'll regret it."
I like how you say green fliers hate ....... sure that means most bant angels can't get through and of course Jugan, the Rising Star but thats about it......green creatures in general might be a better example :P.
I don't think he means green creatures with flying. I think he's talking about the green cards that hate on flying. (X damage to each creature with flying)
You know, PtE hitting this guy is a very valid argument. Except for one thing.
"Akroma is a terrible card. Look at all the white removal that kills it. PtE, ORing, StP in Legacy, Wrath, etc. Akroma is a completely unplayable 8 mana piece of garbage that will never be usable by anyone anywhere, because she dies to every piece of removal in the most commonly used removal color. I can't believe WotC printed Akroma, it's unimaginable anyone would ever like Akroma as a card and it wasted such an important rare slot. Think of all the better cards that could go in that important rare slot instead of garbage like Akroma! Come on, WotC completely failed here."
Time Stretch? I've hardcasted Progenitus multiple times in EDH. I could even cast Autochthon Wurm if I wanted to in a token producing deck. Mana cost isn't really too much of an issue in the format. What matters is whether the card does something awesome when you play it. I'd say a 6/6 flying, first strike, vigilance, lifelink, pro green and red makes an impact. Hell, the first strike even matters in EDH.
I would agree, this card definitely makes a bit of an impact. Despite the fact that it does not have haste (doesn't mean that it can't GET haste in the right deck) this card is definitely a card that is going to make an impact on the game. Even if it is an impact that amounts to "find an answer now, or next turn you will regret it" as Ender said. However personally, I prefer putting clocks on my opponents instead of trying to just stalling the game up. And this card definitely puts a clock on the game.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Wow..this is probably the most awesome finisher I've seen for artifacts. I doubt it'll see much play outside of casual until after rotation when people will try doing a transmuter deck using this card as a finisher. Seriously this card is awesome.
You know, PtE hitting this guy is a very valid argument. Except for one thing.
"Akroma is a terrible card. Look at all the white removal that kills it. PtE, ORing, StP in Legacy, Wrath, etc. Akroma is a completely unplayable 8 mana piece of garbage that will never be usable by anyone anywhere, because she dies to every piece of removal in the most commonly used removal color. I can't believe WotC printed Akroma, it's unimaginable anyone would ever like Akroma as a card and it wasted such an important rare slot. Think of all the better cards that could go in that important rare slot instead of garbage like Akroma! Come on, WotC completely failed here."
Akroma has haste, and that is a big deal.
Speeding up your clock by a turn has been good for pretty much every format. Ichorid for example loves Flame-Kin Zealot because he gives Ichorid the ability to win immediately than wait a turn for your opponent to respond by stopping you.
I don't get why it has in its cost. It just feels forced onto it. All those abilties are just :symw::symu:.
the protection from green is as much a black ability as it is a blue ability considering that green is the shared enemy color of blue and black.
Actually, one of the reasons I HATE the white akroma, is because it has Haste... Haste is normally a Red mechanic. White is not a color of passion, or rage... since when did a mono white card, get an ability that demonstrates that the card is thinking on a purely emotional level. It is completely out of flavor for an Orderly and Just Angel.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Speeding up your clock by a turn has been good for pretty much every format. Ichorid for example loves Flame-Kin Zealot because he gives Ichorid the ability to win immediately than wait a turn for your opponent to respond by stopping you.
Likewise there was absolutely no reason to print Akroma, Angel of Fury. That card obviously has no target audience and was completely unpopular with every single player and should have been replaced with a good rare. I mean, look at how many tournaments that card was used in. Totally a waste of space, worth 25 cents and it was a totally boring card that has no interesting aspects.
I would agree, this card definitely makes a bit of an impact. Despite the fact that it does not have haste (doesn't mean that it can't GET haste in the right deck) this card is definitely a card that is going to make an impact on the game. Even if it is an impact that amounts to "find an answer now, or next turn you will regret it" as Ender said. However personally, I prefer putting clocks on my opponents instead of trying to just stalling the game up. And this card definitely puts a clock on the game.
First things first, I don't think it's a "bad" card, just a boring card, and personally Akroma. Second, the downside of that strategy is that it makes you a political target. If you LOOK too threatening in EDH everyone tries to kill you off. This card not only has a target on it but it puts a target on your head as well. It means that it is easier for players to make alliances against you and your 6/6 thing. The best EDH decks I've seen have board position without actually having anything that powerful in play. You win EDH by not looking like a threat until it is too late.
Likewise there was absolutely no reason to print Akroma, Angel of Fury. That card obviously has no target audience and was completely unpopular with every single player and should have been replaced with a good rare.
um... then explain to me why it is included in my Sedris (and most Sedris) EDH deck... if there was NO target Audience... cause clearly the card is terrible and shouldn't be in ANY deck whatsoever....
First things first, I don't think it's a "bad" card, just a boring card, and personally Akroma. Second, the downside of that strategy is that it makes you a political target. If you LOOK too threatening in EDH everyone tries to kill you off. This card not only has a target on it but it puts a target on your head as well. It means that it is easier for players to make alliances against you and your 6/6 thing. The best EDH decks I've seen have board position without actually having anything that powerful in play. You win EDH by not looking like a threat until it is too late.
um.. yeah that I would agree with. However even the strongest board position without having anything in play, needs finishers of some sort at some point along the way. And in my personal opinion, this card would make at least one additional GOOD finisher for a Sharuum the Hogemon EDH deck. I doubt it will see much play in any OTHER EDH decks, but I could definitely see it being played in a Sharuum deck solely as a finisher, and only one that is pulled out as you say "once it is too late" for the opponents.
um... then explain to me why it is included in my Sedris (and most Sedris) EDH deck... if there was NO target Audience... cause clearly the card is terrible and shouldn't be in ANY deck whatsoever....
Sarcasm detector much? I'm making fun of people who think this Sphinx sucks.
um... then explain to me why it is included in my Sedris (and most Sedris) EDH deck... if there was NO target Audience... cause clearly the card is terrible and shouldn't be in ANY deck whatsoever....
He was being sarcastic. Angel of Fury was abused in Blink.dec.
While the comparisons to Akroma, Angel of Wrath are obvious, the Sphinx lacks on a few fronts. Lifelink is not suitable recompense for losing trample and haste in the comparison with Akroma; also, WUB5 is arguably harder to get than WWW5, depending on what lands are available. My initial opinion is that I'll trade away any that I get ASAP, because it won't live up to the 'new Akroma' hype.
um.. yeah that I would agree with. However even the strongest board position without having anything in play, needs finishers of some sort at some point along the way. And in my personal opinion, this card would make at least one additional GOOD finisher for a Sharuum the Hogemon EDH deck. I doubt it will see much play in any OTHER EDH decks, but I could definitely see it being played in a Sharuum deck solely as a finisher, and only one that is pulled out as you say "once it is too late" for the opponents.
I understand that. And as I said my biggest issue with this card is that it's dull. It has uses, but those uses are VERY limited and are well...dull.
Sure, but by "dull" I only mean it isn't as dynamic as I would like. It lacks a good "come into play" ability to be as dynamic as I would like.
so then, you don't play with the Legendary Dragons from the Kamigawa Block since they don't have "good 'come into play'" abilities, only "goes to graveyard" abilities? Or how about any of the other hundreds of cards that are good without having "comes into play" abilities. For example, in my EDH deck I play with Avatar of Woe, and Blood Tyrant, neither of them have comes into play abilities, are they thus "dull"?
Also, perhaps we should continue this discussion either in the EDH forum, or via PM...
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
And I would say it makes LESS of an impact here because it's a multiplayer format and it really doesn't do anything until your next turn. At that point someone could just drop a big massive instant/sorcery and punish everyone. EDH is a dynamic format and this card isn't dynamic. Really it's just a target that says,"Find a solution or you'll regret it." It's not the most important part of EDH, the "rattlesnake". The card that says,"Kill me and you'll regret it."
Hey, don't forget that vigilance and lifelink are significantly stronger mechanics in multiplayer, especially when combined with first strike and protection. Akroma v4.0 here does a nice job as a rattlesnake too. "Attack me and I'll gain 6 life and eat one of your dudes before you even get to damage me." Just because Esperkroma attacks for 6 doesn't mean it can't play deterrent as well--see Dread.
While the comparisons to Akroma, Angel of Wrath are obvious, the Sphinx lacks on a few fronts. Lifelink is not suitable recompense for losing trample and haste in the comparison with Akroma; also, WUB5 is arguably harder to get than WWW5, depending on what lands are available. My initial opinion is that I'll trade away any that I get ASAP, because it won't live up to the 'new Akroma' hype.
Lifelink is really strong when you're racing, esp on a creature with vigilance. Non-legendary seems to be a plus also, and being an artifact can also be a benefit. So we can break them both down to:
Akroma
Angel 5WWW
1. Flying
2. Trample
3. First strike
4. Vigilance
5. Haste
6. Pro red and black
7. 5/5
8. Only one in play
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Sphinx 5WUB
1. Flying
2. Any number in play
3. First strike
4. Vigilance
5. Lifelink
6. Pro red and green
7. 5/5
I have played too many games with Sedris Reanimator, winning more than just a few of them off the backs of creatures like this card (including the Red Akroma on one occasion) to think that creatures with only keywords or whatever you want to describe them as, are of little use.
Yes, EDH is designed to be a multi-player format, where creatures that don't have alot of impact on the game are of less value than you would think. However EDH is also a format of Magic the Gathering. And as I understand Wizards point of view on the matter, Magic was designed to be won or lost not by sorceries and instants alone, but primarily by Creatures.
Also, how is this card, that is immune to most targeted removal, not a good card in EDH? There are just as many decks in EDH that don't pack white or blue removal as there are decks that do. Granted, most EDH decks pack mass removal over targetted removal, so I could see your point there. However I still see this card as particularly good even in an EDH environment. This is the kind of card that says "Answer me now, or forever hold your peace" kind of like the white and red akroma's, which are heavily played in EDH.
And I would say it makes LESS of an impact here because it's a multiplayer format and it really doesn't do anything until your next turn. At that point someone could just drop a big massive instant/sorcery and punish everyone. EDH is a dynamic format and this card isn't dynamic. Really it's just a target that says,"Find a solution or you'll regret it." It's not the most important part of EDH, the "rattlesnake". The card that says,"Kill me and you'll regret it."
I don't think he means green creatures with flying. I think he's talking about the green cards that hate on flying. (X damage to each creature with flying)
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"Akroma is a terrible card. Look at all the white removal that kills it. PtE, ORing, StP in Legacy, Wrath, etc. Akroma is a completely unplayable 8 mana piece of garbage that will never be usable by anyone anywhere, because she dies to every piece of removal in the most commonly used removal color. I can't believe WotC printed Akroma, it's unimaginable anyone would ever like Akroma as a card and it wasted such an important rare slot. Think of all the better cards that could go in that important rare slot instead of garbage like Akroma! Come on, WotC completely failed here."
in conflux got another version of morphling.
What next? another meloku? Tarmo?
Anyway, i like the card cause it's a esper one
BUG Dredge BUG]
WUBRG Storm WUBRG
UBR FaerieStalker UBR
EDH
Sygg, River Cutthroat (1vs1)
Maga, Traitor to Mortals (multiplayer)
I would agree, this card definitely makes a bit of an impact. Despite the fact that it does not have haste (doesn't mean that it can't GET haste in the right deck) this card is definitely a card that is going to make an impact on the game. Even if it is an impact that amounts to "find an answer now, or next turn you will regret it" as Ender said. However personally, I prefer putting clocks on my opponents instead of trying to just stalling the game up. And this card definitely puts a clock on the game.
There was once [The Pack], but no more.
Akroma has haste, and that is a big deal.
Speeding up your clock by a turn has been good for pretty much every format. Ichorid for example loves Flame-Kin Zealot because he gives Ichorid the ability to win immediately than wait a turn for your opponent to respond by stopping you.
the protection from green is as much a black ability as it is a blue ability considering that green is the shared enemy color of blue and black.
Actually, one of the reasons I HATE the white akroma, is because it has Haste... Haste is normally a Red mechanic. White is not a color of passion, or rage... since when did a mono white card, get an ability that demonstrates that the card is thinking on a purely emotional level. It is completely out of flavor for an Orderly and Just Angel.
Likewise there was absolutely no reason to print Akroma, Angel of Fury. That card obviously has no target audience and was completely unpopular with every single player and should have been replaced with a good rare. I mean, look at how many tournaments that card was used in. Totally a waste of space, worth 25 cents and it was a totally boring card that has no interesting aspects.
First things first, I don't think it's a "bad" card, just a boring card, and personally Akroma. Second, the downside of that strategy is that it makes you a political target. If you LOOK too threatening in EDH everyone tries to kill you off. This card not only has a target on it but it puts a target on your head as well. It means that it is easier for players to make alliances against you and your 6/6 thing. The best EDH decks I've seen have board position without actually having anything that powerful in play. You win EDH by not looking like a threat until it is too late.
um... then explain to me why it is included in my Sedris (and most Sedris) EDH deck... if there was NO target Audience... cause clearly the card is terrible and shouldn't be in ANY deck whatsoever....
um.. yeah that I would agree with. However even the strongest board position without having anything in play, needs finishers of some sort at some point along the way. And in my personal opinion, this card would make at least one additional GOOD finisher for a Sharuum the Hogemon EDH deck. I doubt it will see much play in any OTHER EDH decks, but I could definitely see it being played in a Sharuum deck solely as a finisher, and only one that is pulled out as you say "once it is too late" for the opponents.
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Sarcasm detector much? I'm making fun of people who think this Sphinx sucks.
He was being sarcastic. Angel of Fury was abused in Blink.dec.
BUG Dredge BUG]
WUBRG Storm WUBRG
UBR FaerieStalker UBR
EDH
Sygg, River Cutthroat (1vs1)
Maga, Traitor to Mortals (multiplayer)
I understand that. And as I said my biggest issue with this card is that it's dull. It has uses, but those uses are VERY limited and are well...dull.
fair enough, I will agree to disagree on the "dull" factor. As long as we can both agree that it will see some play in EDH?
Sure, but by "dull" I only mean it isn't as dynamic as I would like. It lacks a good "come into play" ability to be as dynamic as I would like.
In my opinion the card is quite sexy... but right now it's no powerhouse, and doubt if it'll ever be.
so then, you don't play with the Legendary Dragons from the Kamigawa Block since they don't have "good 'come into play'" abilities, only "goes to graveyard" abilities? Or how about any of the other hundreds of cards that are good without having "comes into play" abilities. For example, in my EDH deck I play with Avatar of Woe, and Blood Tyrant, neither of them have comes into play abilities, are they thus "dull"?
Also, perhaps we should continue this discussion either in the EDH forum, or via PM...
Hey, don't forget that vigilance and lifelink are significantly stronger mechanics in multiplayer, especially when combined with first strike and protection. Akroma v4.0 here does a nice job as a rattlesnake too. "Attack me and I'll gain 6 life and eat one of your dudes before you even get to damage me." Just because Esperkroma attacks for 6 doesn't mean it can't play deterrent as well--see Dread.
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Lifelink is really strong when you're racing, esp on a creature with vigilance. Non-legendary seems to be a plus also, and being an artifact can also be a benefit. So we can break them both down to:
Akroma
Angel
5WWW
1. Flying
2. Trample
3. First strike
4. Vigilance
5. Haste
6. Pro red and black
7. 5/5
8. Only one in play
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Sphinx
5WUB
1. Flying
2. Any number in play
3. First strike
4. Vigilance
5. Lifelink
6. Pro red and green
7. 5/5
8. Artifact
Pretty fair I'd say.
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