I mean, there are cards that can remove her and stuff. She's not a catch-all card with a billion fail-safes like Emrakul was... she's just huge, evasive beater that makes everything you control indestructible.
Jeez, there's really no middle ground in these forums.
Actually, I should rephrase... there's really no card that WotC can print that won't make everyone complain about it for 80 pages.
How about some Hexproof? Her 5/5 Flying Hexproof friend seems like a thousand times more powerful being.
She doesn't need to be impossible to answer to be a good card. Sans Emrakul, there's really no cards in the game that aren't meant to have some kind of easily accessible response.
I'm certainly glad she can be answered. If she had hexproof she'd be an automatic addition to every deck... which means I would see her in every single deck I went against, which is always really lame. A more reasonable ability to give her would have been "~ can't be countered", but even then I don't see how that's necessary for her to be a good card.
Actually, I would argue she's a better designed card just being the way she is than with hexproof because it actually makes you think about whether you want to include her or not. Had she been given hexproof this wouldn't have been the case, just as if she had been a few mana cheaper. I think she's pushing it in terms of power; at 7-cmc she would have needed a considerably smaller body, I would say 5/5 and possibly a loss of flying to include her indestructibility ability, at 6-cmc that ability would not have been printed on a creature (but possibly on an enchantment).
I like the card and will put a copy in my Angel deck. Weird though that most Angels (and females in Magic artwork) always wear clothing and makeup that would be in-style on Earth during the exact year that the card gets printed. Here we have a gothic chick wearing leggings very popular in 2011/2012. The thick eyeshadow is a bit 2010 for girls, though. Nowadays it's mostly the boy-bands wearing their eyeshadow like that.
EDIT: It's been interesting to see the hundreds of gold and silver mentions on Magic cards in the past couple years. This one's got BOTH. Precious metals ftw
Has anyone thought of how this works with soulbond? There might be some sort of hexproof or shroud granted by soulbond. It would make this much more playable. Not to mention all the other effects you could pump it with.
Has anyone thought of how this works with soulbond? There might be some sort of hexproof or shroud granted by soulbond. It would make this much more playable. Not to mention all the other effects you could pump it with.
Nice point there. Although I feel that if ever, this creature needs to be either have to have 1-3 cmc's to perfectly compliment Avacyn.
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Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
Is everybody missing the point here? She's not bad because "she can be answered." She's bad because you have to have 8 mana sources to cast her, needs board presence to be used to her full potential (and you should have won by the time you could cast her in that situation anyways) and on TOP of that can then be answered by multiple 1cmc cards (tragic slip, vapor snag, etc).
Is everybody missing the point here? She's not bad because "she can be answered." She's bad because you have to have 8 mana sources to cast her, needs board presence to be used to her full potential (and you should have won by the time you could cast her in that situation anyways) and on TOP of that can then be answered by multiple 1cmc cards (tragic slip, vapor snag, etc).
So she won't see play outside of reanimater decks. While not in every single white deck ever she will see some play.
That's just it though - what is she good for besides a Kaalia of the Vast deck?
I definitely don't expect every mythic to be useful in competitive formats, I even prefer it that for the most part, they're not. But for the namesake of a large set, and a character who has been heralded as the ultimate power for good on the plane since the block began, I somehow expected more.
From a mechanical perspective, she seems very plain, and her cost too high to find a good home in any deck that would want her effect.
From a flavor perspective, she feels, well, "incomplete" is the best word I can come up with. The indestructible protection is nice, but where is the demonslaying "destroyer of evil" side of Avacyn?
Like I said, I understand why some of you are dissapointed, and even I know that she could have been better. Both competively and in flavor.
Hey protip you can actually prevent Geth's Verdict if you have something else to sac! wow!
As I pointed out before, the issue here is her size/cost. Avacyn wants to be played alongside an army of creatures. The problem is that white decks that run a lot of creatures do not play 8 CMC cards. Creatures that size get played pretty much exclusively in control decks. However, control decks will have few creatures and other permanents to take advantage of her ability, making it somewhat useless, and by consequence, they will also have less of a chance to protect her from an edict effect.
The card in itself is a contradiction: it's too costly to be played in the decks that want its effect, and the decks that can pay her cost (or otherwise get her onto the battlefield) have little use for her ability. This leaves her without a real home or purpose in any sort of deck outside of EDH. I think it's great that WotC prints good cards for formats other than Standard, but I just think that the principle character of the set should have been more useful isntead of being a niche card.
This is another argument I never really understood, either. To me, she makes perfect sense. She's the Guardian Angel of all of Innistrad, so when she's on your field she protects all of your permanents (by making them indestructible). Flavor wise she makes perfect sense, it's an easy, non convoluted way of invoking the flavor of a guardian angel (Like Aegis Angel was, except Avacyn is obviously way more powerful).
Yes, Avacyn is a guardian angel. But according to the lore, how did she guard the people of Innistrad? By putting some magic bubble around them? No. She protected them by actively hunting down and destroying or imprisoning evil wherever she could find it. Where is that flavor on this card? Frankly, Baneslayer's protection from demons ability is closer to Avacyn's flavor than Avacyn is. Personally, I would have prefered something like a "fights" ability, or some other form of removal ability; that would have been more consistent with her flavor.
Is everybody missing the point here? She's not bad because "she can be answered." She's bad because you have to have 8 mana sources to cast her, needs board presence to be used to her full potential (and you should have won by the time you could cast her in that situation anyways) and on TOP of that can then be answered by multiple 1cmc cards (tragic slip, vapor snag, etc).
This. If you manage to get her out, you're probably going to have to tap out to do it, and chances are that her indestructible ability will be useless as she will quickly be removed by one of several spells in the format that can easily deal with her. And then what do you have to show for your 8 mana? Cards at that cost usually have some sort of staying power or will at least impact the game state even if they are immediately removed. I do not want her to be hexproof, there's quite enough of that going around already, but she should at least have some sort of ETB effect so that barring a counterspell, you are at least getting something for her cost.
Edit: Just saw the new spoilers. So Griselbrand gets lifelink? How does that make any kind of sense? Also, this is the angel that Avacyn should have been: Sigarda, Host of Herons Yes, it would need to be mono white, and I know it has hexproof which I argued against, and lacks the abilities I was looking for, but it just feels much more mythic, legendary, and flavorful than Avacyn. It would have at least been a big step in the right direction.
I'm sorry if someone asked this earlier, my searches weren't finding anything. Is there a rules reason why her text isn't "Permanents you control are indestructible."? It seems needlessly wordy to split it up like they have.
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I mean, there are cards that can remove her and stuff. She's not a catch-all card with a billion fail-safes like Emrakul was... she's just huge, evasive beater that makes everything you control indestructible.
Jeez, there's really no middle ground in these forums.
Actually, I should rephrase... there's really no card that WotC can print that won't make everyone complain about it for 80 pages.
Hexproof is problematic for flavour ; it just makes any card without hexproof look so much worse ...
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She doesn't need to be impossible to answer to be a good card. Sans Emrakul, there's really no cards in the game that aren't meant to have some kind of easily accessible response.
I'm certainly glad she can be answered. If she had hexproof she'd be an automatic addition to every deck... which means I would see her in every single deck I went against, which is always really lame. A more reasonable ability to give her would have been "~ can't be countered", but even then I don't see how that's necessary for her to be a good card.
Actually, I would argue she's a better designed card just being the way she is than with hexproof because it actually makes you think about whether you want to include her or not. Had she been given hexproof this wouldn't have been the case, just as if she had been a few mana cheaper. I think she's pushing it in terms of power; at 7-cmc she would have needed a considerably smaller body, I would say 5/5 and possibly a loss of flying to include her indestructibility ability, at 6-cmc that ability would not have been printed on a creature (but possibly on an enchantment).
EDIT: It's been interesting to see the hundreds of gold and silver mentions on Magic cards in the past couple years. This one's got BOTH. Precious metals ftw
.
Nice point there. Although I feel that if ever, this creature needs to be either have to have 1-3 cmc's to perfectly compliment Avacyn.
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
Standard:
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Male Magic players treating girls like human beings instead of sexual objects would probably be more effective than "fashion" cards.
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So she won't see play outside of reanimater decks. While not in every single white deck ever she will see some play.
Standard: W/R Aggro
Go Go jank edh combos.
Like I said, I understand why some of you are dissapointed, and even I know that she could have been better. Both competively and in flavor.
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As I pointed out before, the issue here is her size/cost. Avacyn wants to be played alongside an army of creatures. The problem is that white decks that run a lot of creatures do not play 8 CMC cards. Creatures that size get played pretty much exclusively in control decks. However, control decks will have few creatures and other permanents to take advantage of her ability, making it somewhat useless, and by consequence, they will also have less of a chance to protect her from an edict effect.
The card in itself is a contradiction: it's too costly to be played in the decks that want its effect, and the decks that can pay her cost (or otherwise get her onto the battlefield) have little use for her ability. This leaves her without a real home or purpose in any sort of deck outside of EDH. I think it's great that WotC prints good cards for formats other than Standard, but I just think that the principle character of the set should have been more useful isntead of being a niche card.
Yes, Avacyn is a guardian angel. But according to the lore, how did she guard the people of Innistrad? By putting some magic bubble around them? No. She protected them by actively hunting down and destroying or imprisoning evil wherever she could find it. Where is that flavor on this card? Frankly, Baneslayer's protection from demons ability is closer to Avacyn's flavor than Avacyn is. Personally, I would have prefered something like a "fights" ability, or some other form of removal ability; that would have been more consistent with her flavor.
This. If you manage to get her out, you're probably going to have to tap out to do it, and chances are that her indestructible ability will be useless as she will quickly be removed by one of several spells in the format that can easily deal with her. And then what do you have to show for your 8 mana? Cards at that cost usually have some sort of staying power or will at least impact the game state even if they are immediately removed. I do not want her to be hexproof, there's quite enough of that going around already, but she should at least have some sort of ETB effect so that barring a counterspell, you are at least getting something for her cost.
Edit: Just saw the new spoilers. So Griselbrand gets lifelink? How does that make any kind of sense? Also, this is the angel that Avacyn should have been: Sigarda, Host of Herons Yes, it would need to be mono white, and I know it has hexproof which I argued against, and lacks the abilities I was looking for, but it just feels much more mythic, legendary, and flavorful than Avacyn. It would have at least been a big step in the right direction.