The gorgon is going to be stupid in Limited. Turn 5 at the latest (most likely) 2/5 with deathtouch. Also, ARMADILLO CLOAK FUNCTIONAL REPRINT. Excited to play Selesnya at pre-release.
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Tendrils of Agony is what gets you there with obzedat. Not attacking. Keep in mind this is 7 mana creature not a 6 mana creature if you intend on protecting him after casting him which is also a huge difference.
If you blink the obzedat to drain 2 in a board against tusks and rest angel you will get hitted pretty hard.
Morph doesn't get you life but he is more resilient, a better blocker and easier to connect. He is just more mana intensive.
I don't understand the art that goes with a card called Unflinching Courage. Is it just me?
I was thinking this, too. It's a giant dinosaur-like thing running down two little dudes as they flee in terror. Who is supposed to be unflinchingly courageous? The little dudes running for their lives or the giant dinosaur that's a hundred times bigger chasing them?
unstackable armadillo cloak. Itll likely see play alongside some hexproof guys. I actually like the 4UR spell, as it could do significantly large amounts of damage while also digging for what is needed. It is essentially a curiosity + a merfolk looter effect + direct damage.
I like that they keep putting out Gorgons, but they really turn out pretty bad. I just don't think a 2/5 should ever cost 5. Especially when its activated ability is so dependent on your other cards.
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The Gorgon is going to be really interesting with all the early Rakdos drops in limited- you'll always want to unleash them in the early turns and bash in, but this then lets them turn that +1/+1 into removal and do double duty as a blocker again after they're no longer relevant to smash in. (Which very frequently will happen to be around when she would be coming online!)
I like that they keep putting out Gorgons, but they really turn out pretty bad. I just don't think a 2/5 should ever cost 5. Especially when its activated ability is so dependent on your other cards.
Deathtouch makes low power still fine on a 5-mana dude. It can block and kill just about anything, and pretty much nothing can block it and live. There's a long line of 2/4's, 2/5's, and 3/5's for 5 among basilisk/gorgon types: Thicket Basilisk Cockatrice Greater Basilisk Sylvan Basilisk Gorgon Recluse
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Ok, am I missing something about the gorgon? I would be expecting people to complain about her, but so far nothing but compliments. Am I missing some constructed use other than my intended use in casual?
Why complain about a card that's clearly intended for limited and pretty good there at that? People aren't usually upset to see "limited fodder" at common and uncommon, it's when it starts showing up at rare and mythic that people lose their minds...
How about because "they're too strong?" Go for the Throat stops about 80% of creatures, if not more. Counterspell stops about 80% of cards. Murder and Cancel compare similarly, too, albeit Murder is closer to 90% after taking Protection from Black, Shroud, and Hexproof into account. Blue still comes out on top. Note also that both Blue spells were printed well before both Black spells.
Counterspell isn't really a good comparison to anything really since wizards hasn't printed an unconditional 2 mana counterspell for 12 years. That said, the conditions on the best 2 mana removal spells have been hard conditions aka, it NEVER works against certain things; the conditions on the best 2 mana counterspells (since 7th edition rotated) have been temporal conditions- it works only while they don't have enough mana, or it goes back to their hand and they can cast it again if they have enough mana, or the top or their library and they can cast it again next turn. Not to mention things like opportunity cost to play countermagic (tempo loss due to having to hold mana open), the need to have it right then and there... Apples to oranges comparison really. But in all honesty, they printed one of the best counterspells ever in Avacyn Restored, but, the only thing it counters is counterspells, and it goes in the colors of aggression. Then they made removal bad on top of that by making so many hexproof/haste/resilient creatures that it's tough to be a control player since our best (non-burn) removal spells are either sorcery speed or 3 mana aka slow; or they do damage to you or are temporary. Having creatures be so good and both removal and countermagic bad is only fun to certain demographics. In a time where magic is growing as much as it has been, it makes sense to do, because newer players do indeed prefer combat, and hate when their plans are thwarted by a single spell. More entrenched players who started in a time when spells were better than creatures on the other hand have continually had their play style attacked by the powers that be until we arrived at the point where we are now. That's NOT to say that control is dead or terrible, etc. That IS to say that creatures have been pushed to the point where even the "millstone" and combo decks are running some number of creatures just to stay competitive.
...Nnnnnno, no they have not. Partially because Aura decks were a "thing" long before Hexproof ever was, and they were still entirely interactive. Nevermind that aura decks have not been competitive since before Hexproof existed in any shape. This is a pure fabrication.
He was quite clearly talking about the hexproof aura decks (boggle & bant pants). If you read the "thing" in his statement as the lack of interactivity instead of the auras deck then his statement is true. Also true if you use context clues and acknowledge that he's talking about bant pants and boggles...
This whole "Counterspells are the be all, end all" of answers thing is ridiculous.
Agreed. I still remember what it was like to play against lockdown decks with full fledged counterspell, and it felt like there was nothing I could do to beat them. Then I played those decks and learned just how fragile it could be for the other side, and also the things I could do to beat them such as going under (Scryb Sprite ftw) or counter baiting. I personally recommend that everyone who hasn't played with countermagic yet or in a long time try it out, and vice versa. Expand your range and try other styles every so often, you might be surprised by what fun switching roles can be and also what you learn about the matchup. Just make sure you get a good sample size in. Playing a few games with a different style of deck than you're used to and deciding it's terrible isn't going to help. Stick with it, learn the ins and outs and then decide.
It's debatable if triggered is better. On the one hand, it stacks. On the other, you can use lifelink to avoid dying, i.e you're on 2 life and 2 3/3's are attacking you and you have a 2/4 lifelink. As lifelink works now, you could block one and survive on 1 life. If it were triggered, you'd die.
I'm pretty sure that triggered is still better in most cases due to the flexibility it offers, but it's definitely not strictly better for the reason you mention. Will see play, not certain if it's better than Gift of Orzhova for bant pants however, depends on the number of lingering souls in the format I'd imagine.
Also Aetherling is insane. Will control players finally stop lamenting the "death of control"?
Control already has plenty of good finishers. Has had plenty of good finishers. What people who are (incorrectly) lamenting the death of control want are good spells that can compete with all the awesome creatures. I definitely am impressed by Aetherling though, one of the better Morphling variants.
Counterspell is also harder to splash for and isn't reprinted. It's a powerful card, of course, but keep in mind that playing Counters means you have to have the mana IMMEDIATELY when the threat appears. you can't dwaddle around until you need to get rid of the threat, you have to constantly leave mana open to deal with any possible threats your opponent plays. Counterspells aren't "impossible" to get around, you just have to know what you're doing. Not to mention a lot of threats run right under Counterspells, and if you don't have that mana open or get unlucky and draw your counterspells after they play their threat then you might as well have not drawn anything at all.
We call that a "trade-off." One's stronger, but has more specific timing requirements. This is why people generally don't run mono-colour decks ever since they've constantly made it super easy to multicolor; you play a colour to back up another colour's weakness. Black and Blue, you can counter it now, kill it later, or make them discard it before they ever play it.
The fact that you have to have mana open to counter isn't any more of a drawback than having to have mana open to kill a Haste creature. It just means you don't get to spend every turn dumping more creatures on the board. You have to be patient to win with Blue. If patience isn't your thing, Blue isn't your colour.
This whole "Counterspells are the be all, end all" of answers thing is ridiculous.
It's a good thing no one said anything even mildly close to that. I offered estimated percentages, and neither was 100%. The fact that we get two mana splashable removal with fewer drawbacks every block and it's rare to get two mana counters without drawbacks should tell you about where the power level lies.
Hexproof has been around since at least Mirrodin, I think. It was only NAMED recently, but that doesn't mean it hasn't existed for a while. And the poster said "since it happened", but didn't really say when it happened.
It was on one card in Mirrodin, almost ten years ago. You're ignoring over half the game's history if you're dismissing the time period before then. Just because you don't know what happened then doesn't mean it didn't happen.
He was quite clearly talking about the hexproof aura decks (boggle & bant pants). If you read the "thing" in his statement as the lack of interactivity instead of the auras deck then his statement is true. Also true if you use context clues and acknowledge that he's talking about bant pants and boggles...
Yes, I know what he meant. Every colour has been given ways to deal with Hexproof, and they even made an artefact to sideboard in against it. My sympathy is zero if he's not using the tools given him.
Neo-Morphling looks pretty good. It's no Elesh Norn or Consecrated Sphinx, but then, what is?
Gorgon pretty much confirms that I'll be drafting Golgimic (gimmick?) Control probably 9/10 times. It'll be awesome when it works, and miserable when it doesn't. Might as well splash red for Blast, too.
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I am really excited to have Aetherling, so far, my favorite spoiled card this season.
It's funny how a near-reprint of old staple control finisher can throw a giant line in the sand, dividing the people who played during Urza's Saga standard, and people who weren't even able to hold cards without chewing on them...
This. Is. Bomb.
This is going to feel like getting beat down by Baneslayer Angel, getting smash-a-lashed by Cruel Ultimatum, being overshadowed by the impending doom of Bitterblossom... In the hands of the right control mages, Aetherling will be killing you for the next couple of years.
Blue mages, on the other side of the coin, will forget about saying no for two years, and turn creature(s) sideways for the win. There aren't many great counterspells in the format anyways. Thanks wizards!
My only legitimate fear, is that I will have to run it alongside Chromatic Lantern and Gilded Lotus in standard just to make sure my three color manabase can produce all the blue I'm going to need to fight off the Aetherhate.
My only illegitimate fear, is that I will sleep-brew a mono U deck, dreaming that I am back in time, to October 1998...
New Morphling is pretty legit. Matches up nicely to the old one but is generally a lot more aggressive. Do want. It's probably not AS good as the original, though, I guess, but that's because a. combat damage doesn't use the stack anymore, and b. it costs 6.
The aura is nice. Maybe not the second coming of Armadillo Cloak, but it's still good.
The gorgon is gonna be very useful in limited. Past that though... not sure.
Blast of Genius... well, it looks nice. Not the card effect, just the art.
I'm surprised to see so few people talking about Aetherling.
I mean, normally the complaint about every expensive or even semi-expensive creatures is "dies to removal." This guy doesn't. It really doesn't. That's impressive in a creature that can easily do 20+ damage in four hits.
But yes, Aetherling is very good: with just :1mana::symu::symu: available every turn, it can hit for 5 every combat phase regardless of the opponent's board presence and dodge removal all day. Better yet, you can sweep the board while keeping your threat around, which is just perfect for control.
I suppose the only big downside of Aetherling, aside from having to get past countermagic, is that you need to have at least one extra available when you cast it, in order to give it a chance to survive until the next untap step.
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That gorgon deserves to meet Perseus next set because she's ****ing terrible at life.
That spell is about as good as any draw spell they'll print.
Bad card evaluations are bad quite terrible actually...
As has been pointed out a million times cloak and courage are not the same card, unflinching courage is the NWO version with lifelink. Aetherling is quite good as a finisher for long game control. Gorgon is fantastic at limited. And finally, Isperia would like a word with you about card draw...
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but the selesnya enchantment isn't armadillo cloak. Armadillo cloack has triggered lifegain instead of lifelink and is better.
Blue mages already have a finisher. They use it because they don't need to occupy 2-3 card slots finishers not because they don't have any. Aetherling is cool and all but it will see little play outside of fnm. Jace memory adept cost 1 less has an effect as soon as he hits making him 3 turns faster, and he only sees sideboard play.
We lose drownyard in 5 months, Aetherling is for after that.
That gorgon deserves to meet Perseus next set because she's ****ing terrible at life.
That spell is about as good as any draw spell they'll print.
Calm down man...
The morphing is deceptively good. It can dodge all removal if you have U open. If can swing hard for 8, unblockable, blink, come back as a blocker, then block something and blink again if it has to to survive. It reminds me of Sphinx of Jwar Isle, who had his role in Standard back in the day.
Unflinching Courage is a different card than Armadillo Cloak. It is cleaner, modern, and not as silly. Granted, it can't be used as a Soul Link. Armadillo Cloak never made much sense flavor wise, but honestly, who cares, it was cool and funny.
Blast of Genius isn't really a draw spell. It can be a combo card with big CMC cards like Emrakul, while filtering your hand. People used Erratic Explosion and Riddle of Lightning before, so it's not in bad company.
Keep in mind that Aetherling is somewhat dangerous as a mana sink. Exiling himself rather than granting shroud means that all of the adjustments you made to his P/T, and whether or not you made him unblockable will count for nothing if your opponent forces you to exile him.
For the "efficient" clock of a 7/2 unblockable creature every turn (a 3 turn clock), you'll need 3U. If your opponent forces you to exile, or you play around lifegain, you're looking at an additional 1U, meaning that in order to play him all-in, you'll have to pay his mana cost again.
He's still very powerful. I think this could mean that the "returning mechanic" in the October set (Theros) is Split Second.
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That new Armadillo Cloak has the worst artwork I've seen in 10+ years. It looks like a screenshot from a cutesy PS1 game and the flavor has nothing at all to do with the card. It's a couple of midget cavemen running from a dinosaur. That would, in fact, be the opposite of "unflinching courage," and last I checked, Ravnica was a highly sophisticated city plane, not a prehistoric plane with jungle, dinosaurs, and cavemen. I'm not normally one to complain about artwork, but when it's both crappy and completely unrelated to the card and block it's for, I notice.
Functionally, the card is good, though. And the new Morphling is sweet and will definitely see play.
Blast of Genius - 2/5
Drawing cards at sorcery speed is never really good, specially at that price. The removal damage part is not even reliable. Forget about this card for control.
It's a build around card that can only be possibly used in combos. If we could double damage done somehow and had at least one cantrip, discarding cmc 10 cards could be a good t4~5 kill. I've seen worse combo enablers.
Aetherling - 4/5
A good reason to go blue. Clocks in 3 turns, avoid all blocks, resist all removals. You can't get much better then that. The downsides is his a mana intensive card and does not cause a massive board change (like titans and wurmcoil engine, my models for A+ finishers).
Unfliching Courage - 3/5
Since auras have a home I can see it being a constructed worthy card. As said above, this will dispute with Gift of Orzhova for slots. It depends on which is more trouble some for you - Lingering Souls or fatties in general.
Korozda Gorgon - 1/5
Obvious for limited. A 5 cmc creature that need a bunch of creature shenanigans to work is a obvious recipe for over extension and durdle beginnings, making the deck weak vs. control and aggro.
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If you blink the obzedat to drain 2 in a board against tusks and rest angel you will get hitted pretty hard.
Morph doesn't get you life but he is more resilient, a better blocker and easier to connect. He is just more mana intensive.
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I was thinking this, too. It's a giant dinosaur-like thing running down two little dudes as they flee in terror. Who is supposed to be unflinchingly courageous? The little dudes running for their lives or the giant dinosaur that's a hundred times bigger chasing them?
Also, that cloak reprint. Going to be so cool. Selesnya tokens just got more real.
Oh well, at least it will only be for like 6 months. Excited to see Armadillo Cloak come back nonetheless.
AEtherling looks like an amazing finisher for control... with 7 mana, good luck killing this guy if he resolves.
(I'm not saying this necessarily makes it constructed material...I'm just saying that this is pretty clearly an interaction that RnD had in mind)
Deathtouch makes low power still fine on a 5-mana dude. It can block and kill just about anything, and pretty much nothing can block it and live. There's a long line of 2/4's, 2/5's, and 3/5's for 5 among basilisk/gorgon types:
Thicket Basilisk
Cockatrice
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Why complain about a card that's clearly intended for limited and pretty good there at that? People aren't usually upset to see "limited fodder" at common and uncommon, it's when it starts showing up at rare and mythic that people lose their minds...
Counterspell isn't really a good comparison to anything really since wizards hasn't printed an unconditional 2 mana counterspell for 12 years. That said, the conditions on the best 2 mana removal spells have been hard conditions aka, it NEVER works against certain things; the conditions on the best 2 mana counterspells (since 7th edition rotated) have been temporal conditions- it works only while they don't have enough mana, or it goes back to their hand and they can cast it again if they have enough mana, or the top or their library and they can cast it again next turn. Not to mention things like opportunity cost to play countermagic (tempo loss due to having to hold mana open), the need to have it right then and there... Apples to oranges comparison really. But in all honesty, they printed one of the best counterspells ever in Avacyn Restored, but, the only thing it counters is counterspells, and it goes in the colors of aggression. Then they made removal bad on top of that by making so many hexproof/haste/resilient creatures that it's tough to be a control player since our best (non-burn) removal spells are either sorcery speed or 3 mana aka slow; or they do damage to you or are temporary. Having creatures be so good and both removal and countermagic bad is only fun to certain demographics. In a time where magic is growing as much as it has been, it makes sense to do, because newer players do indeed prefer combat, and hate when their plans are thwarted by a single spell. More entrenched players who started in a time when spells were better than creatures on the other hand have continually had their play style attacked by the powers that be until we arrived at the point where we are now. That's NOT to say that control is dead or terrible, etc. That IS to say that creatures have been pushed to the point where even the "millstone" and combo decks are running some number of creatures just to stay competitive.
He was quite clearly talking about the hexproof aura decks (boggle & bant pants). If you read the "thing" in his statement as the lack of interactivity instead of the auras deck then his statement is true. Also true if you use context clues and acknowledge that he's talking about bant pants and boggles...
Agreed. I still remember what it was like to play against lockdown decks with full fledged counterspell, and it felt like there was nothing I could do to beat them. Then I played those decks and learned just how fragile it could be for the other side, and also the things I could do to beat them such as going under (Scryb Sprite ftw) or counter baiting. I personally recommend that everyone who hasn't played with countermagic yet or in a long time try it out, and vice versa. Expand your range and try other styles every so often, you might be surprised by what fun switching roles can be and also what you learn about the matchup. Just make sure you get a good sample size in. Playing a few games with a different style of deck than you're used to and deciding it's terrible isn't going to help. Stick with it, learn the ins and outs and then decide.
I'm pretty sure that triggered is still better in most cases due to the flexibility it offers, but it's definitely not strictly better for the reason you mention. Will see play, not certain if it's better than Gift of Orzhova for bant pants however, depends on the number of lingering souls in the format I'd imagine.
Control already has plenty of good finishers. Has had plenty of good finishers. What people who are (incorrectly) lamenting the death of control want are good spells that can compete with all the awesome creatures. I definitely am impressed by Aetherling though, one of the better Morphling variants.
We call that a "trade-off." One's stronger, but has more specific timing requirements. This is why people generally don't run mono-colour decks ever since they've constantly made it super easy to multicolor; you play a colour to back up another colour's weakness. Black and Blue, you can counter it now, kill it later, or make them discard it before they ever play it.
The fact that you have to have mana open to counter isn't any more of a drawback than having to have mana open to kill a Haste creature. It just means you don't get to spend every turn dumping more creatures on the board. You have to be patient to win with Blue. If patience isn't your thing, Blue isn't your colour.
It's a good thing no one said anything even mildly close to that. I offered estimated percentages, and neither was 100%. The fact that we get two mana splashable removal with fewer drawbacks every block and it's rare to get two mana counters without drawbacks should tell you about where the power level lies.
It was on one card in Mirrodin, almost ten years ago. You're ignoring over half the game's history if you're dismissing the time period before then. Just because you don't know what happened then doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Context - was reponse to this.
Because Every Set is Terrible!
Yes, I know what he meant. Every colour has been given ways to deal with Hexproof, and they even made an artefact to sideboard in against it. My sympathy is zero if he's not using the tools given him.
Context - was reponse to this.
Because Every Set is Terrible!
Gorgon pretty much confirms that I'll be drafting Golgimic (gimmick?) Control probably 9/10 times. It'll be awesome when it works, and miserable when it doesn't. Might as well splash red for Blast, too.
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It's funny how a near-reprint of old staple control finisher can throw a giant line in the sand, dividing the people who played during Urza's Saga standard, and people who weren't even able to hold cards without chewing on them...
This. Is. Bomb.
This is going to feel like getting beat down by Baneslayer Angel, getting smash-a-lashed by Cruel Ultimatum, being overshadowed by the impending doom of Bitterblossom... In the hands of the right control mages, Aetherling will be killing you for the next couple of years.
Blue mages, on the other side of the coin, will forget about saying no for two years, and turn creature(s) sideways for the win. There aren't many great counterspells in the format anyways. Thanks wizards!
My only legitimate fear, is that I will have to run it alongside Chromatic Lantern and Gilded Lotus in standard just to make sure my three color manabase can produce all the blue I'm going to need to fight off the Aetherhate.
My only illegitimate fear, is that I will sleep-brew a mono U deck, dreaming that I am back in time, to October 1998...
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The aura is nice. Maybe not the second coming of Armadillo Cloak, but it's still good.
The gorgon is gonna be very useful in limited. Past that though... not sure.
Blast of Genius... well, it looks nice. Not the card effect, just the art.
Armadillo Cloak's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson stole Aetherling's spotlight.
But yes, Aetherling is very good: with just :1mana::symu::symu: available every turn, it can hit for 5 every combat phase regardless of the opponent's board presence and dodge removal all day. Better yet, you can sweep the board while keeping your threat around, which is just perfect for control.
I suppose the only big downside of Aetherling, aside from having to get past countermagic, is that you need to have at least one extra available when you cast it, in order to give it a chance to survive until the next untap step.
Jace's Trolling ---
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Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
"Yeah, sure... when pigs fly."
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****ty morphling is ****ty.
That gorgon deserves to meet Perseus next set because she's ****ing terrible at life.
That spell is about as good as any draw spell they'll print.
Bad card evaluations are
badquite terrible actually...As has been pointed out a million times cloak and courage are not the same card, unflinching courage is the NWO version with lifelink. Aetherling is quite good as a finisher for long game control. Gorgon is fantastic at limited. And finally, Isperia would like a word with you about card draw...
We lose drownyard in 5 months, Aetherling is for after that.
Lurker. Rules Advisor. Sleepy.
Calm down man...
The morphing is deceptively good. It can dodge all removal if you have U open. If can swing hard for 8, unblockable, blink, come back as a blocker, then block something and blink again if it has to to survive. It reminds me of Sphinx of Jwar Isle, who had his role in Standard back in the day.
Unflinching Courage is a different card than Armadillo Cloak. It is cleaner, modern, and not as silly. Granted, it can't be used as a Soul Link. Armadillo Cloak never made much sense flavor wise, but honestly, who cares, it was cool and funny.
Blast of Genius isn't really a draw spell. It can be a combo card with big CMC cards like Emrakul, while filtering your hand. People used Erratic Explosion and Riddle of Lightning before, so it's not in bad company.
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For the "efficient" clock of a 7/2 unblockable creature every turn (a 3 turn clock), you'll need 3U. If your opponent forces you to exile, or you play around lifegain, you're looking at an additional 1U, meaning that in order to play him all-in, you'll have to pay his mana cost again.
He's still very powerful. I think this could mean that the "returning mechanic" in the October set (Theros) is Split Second.
Functionally, the card is good, though. And the new Morphling is sweet and will definitely see play.
Drawing cards at sorcery speed is never really good, specially at that price. The removal damage part is not even reliable. Forget about this card for control.
It's a build around card that can only be possibly used in combos. If we could double damage done somehow and had at least one cantrip, discarding cmc 10 cards could be a good t4~5 kill. I've seen worse combo enablers.
Aetherling - 4/5
A good reason to go blue. Clocks in 3 turns, avoid all blocks, resist all removals. You can't get much better then that. The downsides is his a mana intensive card and does not cause a massive board change (like titans and wurmcoil engine, my models for A+ finishers).
Unfliching Courage - 3/5
Since auras have a home I can see it being a constructed worthy card. As said above, this will dispute with Gift of Orzhova for slots. It depends on which is more trouble some for you - Lingering Souls or fatties in general.
Korozda Gorgon - 1/5
Obvious for limited. A 5 cmc creature that need a bunch of creature shenanigans to work is a obvious recipe for over extension and durdle beginnings, making the deck weak vs. control and aggro.
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