Guys, you DON'T need Jace's Erasure, Underworld Dreams, or anything like that. If you can assemble Mind over Matter and Bell, with a Darksteel in your deck, you win. If you can't, then Dreams, Erasure, etc., are dead draws.
As a connoisseur of fun, interesting matches, I still to this day have not been able to craft that "perfect deck"; the deck that I can play and have fun over time, doesn't get boring, but simultaneously is fun to play against. I honestly don't think it exists. It's like a unicorn. A ninja unicorn.
I like where this is going a UW/x control deck with FoW, Daze, Enlightened Tutor, Temple Bell, Mind over Matter, a copy of Darksteel Colossus and whatever other control pieces you might want(silence, orim's chant etc.) seems good.
My suggestion would be to take advantage of it's unbanning and add Grim Monolith in for a nice speed boost to the deck(it may not be able to help pay for more than 2 of over MoM's cost but a 2nd turn Monolith and Bell into and third turn Show and Tell for MoM can win the game right there(you could also do it 2nd turn using the legacy legal moxes).
I like where this is going a UW/x control deck with FoW, Daze, Enlightened Tutor, Temple Bell, Mind over Matter, a copy of Darksteel Colossus and whatever other control pieces you might want(silence, orim's chant etc.) seems good.
My suggestion would be to take advantage of it's unbanning and add Grim Monolith in for a nice speed boost to the deck(it may not be able to help pay for more than 2 of over MoM's cost but a 2nd turn Monolith and Bell into and third turn Show and Tell for MoM can win the game right there(you could also do it 2nd turn using the legacy legal moxes).
That's a piece of good tech right there. Monolith works like Ritual on a stick and with Darksteel Colossus and Emrakul, you have some solid wincons to exploit with MoM as well.
I really enjoy how this combo can easily fit into many decks in legacy. Though I wonder how much adding this alt. win condition would affect the consistency.
Having this as the main win condition seems too fragile for me, though I suppose everything is fragile against your worst matchup.
I like the concept, but there are a few drawbacks to this deck.
1) Your opponent's going to draw their deck and have it in hand, while you will likely be somewhat card limited. If they can find some way to prevent death by decking, you're toast.
2) You're going to have some difficulty getting that combo going by turn 2 (generally most Legacy decks can gain board dominance by turn 2) I figure it'd take 5-6 of your opening 7-10 cards to fully get it running by then. Doable, but not efficient.
3) Lots of stuff available in Legacy that allows your opponent to short circuit your win-con. (Stifle, Abolish and Pithing Needle come to mind)
I like the concept, but there are a few drawbacks to this deck.
1) Your opponent's going to draw their deck and have it in hand, while you will likely be somewhat card limited. If they can find some way to prevent death by decking, you're toast.
2) You're going to have some difficulty getting that combo going by turn 2 (generally most Legacy decks can gain board dominance by turn 2) I figure it'd take 5-6 of your opening 7-10 cards to fully get it running by then. Doable, but not efficient.
3) Lots of stuff available in Legacy that allows your opponent to short circuit your win-con. (Stifle, Abolish and Pithing Needle come to mind)
1) Are there any? Considering that you can just pitch a second card to the Bell with Mind to combo out with their response on the stack... Granted, a single Krosan Grip in the deck hoses us, if we don't prepare. (Of course, a Silence or Chant before combo deals with that quite nicely.)
2) It will be difficult to get this combo assembled quickly, but I think it benefits a slightly more control-ish build, anyway. This slots easily into Countertop.
3) I fail to see how Stifle hurts us; again, we can simply discard another card, or, failing that, combo next turn. Abolish and Needle are certainly annoying, but we're running blue, after all; we should have Force and Daze, at least, possibly with Counterbalance, and Chain of Vapor in the side for Pithing.
As a connoisseur of fun, interesting matches, I still to this day have not been able to craft that "perfect deck"; the deck that I can play and have fun over time, doesn't get boring, but simultaneously is fun to play against. I honestly don't think it exists. It's like a unicorn. A ninja unicorn.
That looks like standard UW control with StP and FoW thrown in, plus the combo and DSC to keep from decking. No.
It's an interesting combo. I don't remember the name of the card, but there's a creature that fetches an enchantment to the battlefield when it hits the graveyard. Might be helpful, might not.
It's an interesting combo. I don't remember the name of the card, but there's a creature that fetches an enchantment to the battlefield when it hits the graveyard. Might be helpful, might not.
You're thinking of Academy Rector. I don't know if we have a reliable way of getting her in the graveyard, though. Though if we use her, we could possibly main or side 1 copy of Meishin, the Mind Cage against aggro.
As a connoisseur of fun, interesting matches, I still to this day have not been able to craft that "perfect deck"; the deck that I can play and have fun over time, doesn't get boring, but simultaneously is fun to play against. I honestly don't think it exists. It's like a unicorn. A ninja unicorn.
1) Are there any? Considering that you can just pitch a second card to the Bell with Mind to combo out with their response on the stack... Granted, a single Krosan Grip in the deck hoses us, if we don't prepare. (Of course, a Silence or Chant before combo deals with that quite nicely.)
2) It will be difficult to get this combo assembled quickly, but I think it benefits a slightly more control-ish build, anyway. This slots easily into Countertop.
3) I fail to see how Stifle hurts us; again, we can simply discard another card, or, failing that, combo next turn. Abolish and Needle are certainly annoying, but we're running blue, after all; we should have Force and Daze, at least, possibly with Counterbalance, and Chain of Vapor in the side for Pithing.
All good points. I think UW is definitely the best way to go with this. 4 Silence, 4 Chants, 4 Academy Rector...we just need to find a way to get her to the graveyard in UW...unless of course we splash for a third color that has a card that requires sacrificing a creature as part of the cost...at instant speed...
EDIT: Honestly, I really like the idea of Skulltap with Academy Rector. After casting the rector, you keep priority to cast skulltap, sacrificing the rector before your opponent can respond. Even if they can try to find a way to counter Skulltap, you're going to get the enchantment out...
This deck idea almost makes me want to play legacy...but I can't afford FoW and crap like that.
Rough draft, maybe some more experienced legacy players can tell me if it's good or not. And I see Jace's Erasure/Underworld Dreams in some lists, seems redundant unless you're trying to take out multiple people in a multiplayer game.
That list seems to have too many unnecessary cards imo.
Anyway, Grim Monolith and Transmute Artifact seem pretty good to get out the Bell. Mystical Tutor seems good for a little backup on the bell, but honestly, I think 1 or 2 copies of the enchantment along with Academy Rector and Skulltap (or something else that lets us sacrifice her as a cost) are all we need to get out the enchantment.
This idea to me seems more like something that could slide into dream halls progenitus decks given that they already have most of the tools available in the deck to make it work. All they would need to add are a copy or two of mind over matter temple bell and enlightened tutor for the bell. Otherwise the deck already has the means to prevent itself from decking, show and tell, dream halls to cheat MoM into play, a tutor for MoM in conflux and enough draw and counters to protect itself from decking.
Oh and bloodghast for the record that is not at all how you build a UW mana base in legacy at all. You would use 4 tundra, 4 flooded strand then more fetches and a few of each basic because wasteland is everywhere and there are only 3 fetches that can't grab a tundra
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EDIT: Honestly, I really like the idea of Skulltap with Academy Rector. After casting the rector, you keep priority to cast skulltap, sacrificing the rector before your opponent can respond. Even if they can try to find a way to counter Skulltap, you're going to get the enchantment out...
Skulltap is kind of stains. What about Flashing back a Cabal Therapy? That way, you can do this with only 4 mana open (off of a Bell the previous turn that's a win right there), and you get two chances to pick answers out of their hand.
The big problem I see with this combo is that Mind over Matter costs 6. It's going to be too tough to get to that in legacy before you get run over by goblins, tarmogoyfs, ravagers, fish, Bobs, etc.
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Skulltap is kind of stains. What about Flashing back a Cabal Therapy? That way, you can do this with only 4 mana open (off of a Bell the previous turn that's a win right there), and you get two chances to pick answers out of their hand.
The big problem I see with this combo is that Mind over Matter costs 6. It's going to be too tough to get to that in legacy before you get run over by goblins, tarmogoyfs, ravagers, fish, Bobs, etc.
It isnt as tough as it sounds provided you build towards it and have enough disruption to keep your deck safe which is why I suggest going with it in a Dream Hallsprogenitus deck rather than it being its own deck all the tools would already be available, it has already established itself within the meta, and isn't as vulnerable to one specific form of disruption, and has reliably gotten dream halls out so it shouldn't be much harder for it to reliably get mind over matter out either
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Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
IMO, it's too slow for competitive Legacy, since you'd be facing down Zoo and the assorted. I could be wrong on that count, though.
For a casual deck? Looks like lots of fun (especially in EDH, where you've got a much larger library).
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Guys, you DON'T need Jace's Erasure, Underworld Dreams, or anything like that. If you can assemble Mind over Matter and Bell, with a Darksteel in your deck, you win. If you can't, then Dreams, Erasure, etc., are dead draws.
Agreed. The decking combo is enough in and of itself to win.
Your correct in the fact metagames differ , SCG represents a very small % of worldwide tournaments.
Secondly the moment a new deck establishes itself the metagame changes to accomodate it.
Thirdly you did not say " forced draw effects are not commonly played in legacy" you said that there are none in legacy.
This is not catty more drawing attention to the mistake which in itself is a flaw in the proposed deck and needs to be catered for.
You don't come off as beligerent, more arrogant but that's fine as my aim was to politely help you due to the fact you come off as knowing very little about legacy and more interested in dumbing down the format to your preffered neo-extended format.
I just don't understand what you are trying to say here. Your over-representation of a barely played card if anything shows that you know less about Legacy than you claim. I have designed this deck with the current big names of the format in mind with an eye towards beating them (Zoo, Merfolk, NO CounterTop, New Horizons). While the SCG metagame does not represent the entire world Legacy metagame, it definitely represents the American metgame (where I happen to be), and it definitely informs player decisions abroad. I also do not see where you think you were being "politely helpful". That would have been saying "What does this deck do about forced draw effects?" instead of "You don't know anything about the format, and I do, so let me enlighten you." Addressing flaws is a key process of deckbuilding, as is bringing them up, but not in the way that you have done so.
And as to the overextended point, I really do not see how that is either relevant or helpful, especially because I haven't mentioned it at all in this thread. Helping with deckbuilding is valuable, but random trolling is not.
I like the concept, but there are a few drawbacks to this deck.
1) Your opponent's going to draw their deck and have it in hand, while you will likely be somewhat card limited. If they can find some way to prevent death by decking, you're toast.
Quote from Morningstar81 »
2) This doen't win immediately in the strict sense of the word. It takes around 100 steps of untap and draw to win, and your opponent will gradually draw his entire deck in the process. You'll lose if he draws into Krosan Grip and has mana available to cast it, which means you will almost always have to dump your hand to tap out your opponent in games 2 and 3. This in turn means that you can't spend too many resources accelerating into the combo and if you are forced into a counter war to resolve Mind Over Matter, you won't have resources to tap out your opponent and will lose to Grip.
This is an excellent objection that has an easy solution. Let's assume you combo out on turn 5-6. Your opponent will probably have 5-6 mana in play, a few of which are green. Prior to comboing out, use Mind Over Matter itself to tap as many of their lands/Hierarchs as possible. Once you have done so, end the phase and move to the next one. With the opponent's mana pools now empty, their Krosan Grips that they will inevitably draw will just sit in their hands. This is the most elegant solution to the problem, and it is built into the combo itself.
2) You're going to have some difficulty getting that combo going by turn 2 (generally most Legacy decks can gain board dominance by turn 2) I figure it'd take 5-6 of your opening 7-10 cards to fully get it running by then. Doable, but not efficient.
Thopter-based decks go off a lot later with a control shell. Given this deck's use of Enlightened Tutor, it would be incredibly easy to add in the standard CounterTop package, making 4 of our main deck components tutorable with E-Tutor.
3) Lots of stuff available in Legacy that allows your opponent to short circuit your win-con. (Stifle, Abolish and Pithing Needle come to mind)
[/quote]
My biggest worries are not these cards, all of which are used in game 2-3 (with the exception of Stifle in some Merfolk/Tempo Thresh builds, and Needle in some builds running Trinket Mage like Tezzerator and Painter/Stone, although those are not widely played decks). I am far more concerned about the Qasali Pridemage in all 3 games that Zoo brings to the table. A turn 2 Pridemage needs to be killed before I can even cast the Bell, let alone MOM. The most effective solution is just that; kill the Pridemage with Swords or Path, both of which this UW deck could run. Is it enough? Between that, Daze, FoW, and CounterTop, it probably is. But testing would answer that question better than speculation.
1) While it is true that the combo only involves 2 cards, it has a total cost of 9 mana and more importantly a critical cost of 6 mana 4 of which blue (for Mind Over Matter) which takes away much of its viability. You can't efficiently accelerate into 2UUUU, and you'll most likely have to play the combo cards in different turns, making you vulnerable to removal (Qasali Pridemage, Krosan Grip, etc).
This means that building a fast combo deck out of this is not very viable. You're better off going for a combo-control Enlightened Tutor-based deck similar to the Thopter-Sword CounterTop builds. But even in such a build, I can think of few reasons why I'd opt for a 6 mana card to win the game, when I could go for the Thopter combo or for Painter-Grindstone.
The UUUU in MOM is problematic, and definitely requires some creative solutions. Show and Tell is obviously one such solution, an excellent one that gives us an alternate win condition with Emrakul AND accelerates our primary win. But we can't reliably have this card at all time, so we need other options. Here are some options:
1) Lotus Bloom: Could be used with Tezzeret, especially given Tezz's synergy with both Sensei's Divining Top and Temple Bell.
2) Carpet of Flowers: Against a lot of Legacy decks, this gives some huge acceleration starting on turn 1. But against Zoo and Goblins it's a totally dead draw. A bit too inconsistent for my taste.
3) Mystic Gate: Filters our mana, but gives us Wasteland vulnerability. Has an awesome combo with MOM for lots of blue mana but sadly that actually requires the MOM in play...
4) Saprazzan Skerry: Accelerates us into the right colors. The earliest you could combo out with Skerry would be around turn 4 assuming a turn 1 Skerry, turn 2 island, turn 3 island, turn 4 ancient tomb/city of traitors or something to that effect. That's not bad persay, especially on the play, but it's not great either.
5) High Tide: Someone on another forum suggested the Solidarity staple to help combo out. It's not a bad option, but it has us winning at about the same time that the Skerry version wins: turn 4.
Those are some of the options that come to mind. Thoughts on these and other ones?
Last but not least, this seems strictly worse than the Hive Mind combo, which also has a critical cost of 6 mana, but is much easier to accelerate into (Grim Monolith helps it more than this combo), only requires resolving Hive Mind and wins when it does.
The most important difference that I see is the ability to get both pieces with Enlightened Tutor, and the fact that both combo pieces are useful on their own. Temple Bell is not a bad card, even with the reciprocal card draw. MOM without the Bell is of course pretty darn powerful. Hive Mind/Pact of the Titan without the other piece, however, is basically a dead draw.
Quote from giallarihorn »
IMO, it's too slow for competitive Legacy, since you'd be facing down Zoo and the assorted. I could be wrong on that count, though.
Speed is definitely an issue with the UUUU in the MOM cost, but then again there are plenty of "slow" decks in Legacy that are competitive. We don't need to win right away to play against the fast decks. We just need to keep a stable board state and defend our combo pieces. Against some decks, that's pretty easy (Goblins and Dredge for instance strike me as easy matchups). Against other decks, it's easier said than done (Zoo and Merfolk). But given that this combo only takes up 8 slots, and has overlap in the enchantment/artifact department, you have a lot of extra slots to protect your combo from the standard Legacy perils.
The combo is nice but it just seems like a slow version of Spring Tide which is already at least a turn slower than TES, SI, and even Elves(not including ANT because of Mystical Tutor banning). Also, if your opponent has Krosan grips(and can cast it), it can be bad news bears. Yes, the combo is good. Yes, somebody somewhere will lose to it. No, it will not make a huge dent in legacy because I think aggro and combo will race it, control most likely stop it in its tracks because it'll need to rush MoM out by either Show and Telling it or Acceling into it, and midrange will hold back to 2 mana at all times to grip bell.
One copy of Grip could seal your fate with this thing.
That card sees a ton of SB play because its amazing in legacy.
I would consider 4x Orim's Chant just in case of them drawing something relevant. Chant can also buy you time against faster decks kicked. Not to mention the other problem of say a burn type deck waiting till you fill his hand with 2x lightning bolts and a fireblast then just killing you with his two untapped mountains mid-combo I assume he would have gotten you below 10 life by the time this combo comes online minimum.
oh, or jace 2... or just mill them first
Celestial Colonnade? Hallowed Fountain? Glacial Fortress? Fabricate? 3x StP? Really?
so my build
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
3 Island
1 Celestial Collonade
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Temple Bell
4 Mind Over Matter
4 Force of Will
3 Show and Tell
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Azorius Signet
3 Daze
1 Jace's Erasure
now THATS a legacy deck. i wanna build it
My suggestion would be to take advantage of it's unbanning and add Grim Monolith in for a nice speed boost to the deck(it may not be able to help pay for more than 2 of over MoM's cost but a 2nd turn Monolith and Bell into and third turn Show and Tell for MoM can win the game right there(you could also do it 2nd turn using the legacy legal moxes).
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That's a piece of good tech right there. Monolith works like Ritual on a stick and with Darksteel Colossus and Emrakul, you have some solid wincons to exploit with MoM as well.
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Or a straight multi combo deck.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
4 Island
3 Plains
1 Painter's Servant
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Counterspell
4 Swords of Plowshare
4 Brainstorm
2 Wrath of God
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Mind Over Matter
1 Temple Bell
1 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Grindstone
Having this as the main win condition seems too fragile for me, though I suppose everything is fragile against your worst matchup.
1) Your opponent's going to draw their deck and have it in hand, while you will likely be somewhat card limited. If they can find some way to prevent death by decking, you're toast.
2) You're going to have some difficulty getting that combo going by turn 2 (generally most Legacy decks can gain board dominance by turn 2) I figure it'd take 5-6 of your opening 7-10 cards to fully get it running by then. Doable, but not efficient.
3) Lots of stuff available in Legacy that allows your opponent to short circuit your win-con. (Stifle, Abolish and Pithing Needle come to mind)
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1) Are there any? Considering that you can just pitch a second card to the Bell with Mind to combo out with their response on the stack... Granted, a single Krosan Grip in the deck hoses us, if we don't prepare. (Of course, a Silence or Chant before combo deals with that quite nicely.)
2) It will be difficult to get this combo assembled quickly, but I think it benefits a slightly more control-ish build, anyway. This slots easily into Countertop.
3) I fail to see how Stifle hurts us; again, we can simply discard another card, or, failing that, combo next turn. Abolish and Needle are certainly annoying, but we're running blue, after all; we should have Force and Daze, at least, possibly with Counterbalance, and Chain of Vapor in the side for Pithing.
(Not a legacy player but loves this stuff)
Edit: nvm darksteel never goes to the graveyard
That looks like standard UW control with StP and FoW thrown in, plus the combo and DSC to keep from decking. No.
It's an interesting combo. I don't remember the name of the card, but there's a creature that fetches an enchantment to the battlefield when it hits the graveyard. Might be helpful, might not.
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You're thinking of Academy Rector. I don't know if we have a reliable way of getting her in the graveyard, though. Though if we use her, we could possibly main or side 1 copy of Meishin, the Mind Cage against aggro.
All good points. I think UW is definitely the best way to go with this. 4 Silence, 4 Chants, 4 Academy Rector...we just need to find a way to get her to the graveyard in UW...unless of course we splash for a third color that has a card that requires sacrificing a creature as part of the cost...at instant speed...
EDIT: Honestly, I really like the idea of Skulltap with Academy Rector. After casting the rector, you keep priority to cast skulltap, sacrificing the rector before your opponent can respond. Even if they can try to find a way to counter Skulltap, you're going to get the enchantment out...
This deck idea almost makes me want to play legacy...but I can't afford FoW and crap like that.
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Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
4 Mind Over Matter
4 Show and Tell
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
6 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
Rough draft, maybe some more experienced legacy players can tell me if it's good or not. And I see Jace's Erasure/Underworld Dreams in some lists, seems redundant unless you're trying to take out multiple people in a multiplayer game.
Anyway, Grim Monolith and Transmute Artifact seem pretty good to get out the Bell. Mystical Tutor seems good for a little backup on the bell, but honestly, I think 1 or 2 copies of the enchantment along with Academy Rector and Skulltap (or something else that lets us sacrifice her as a cost) are all we need to get out the enchantment.
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Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
Oh and bloodghast for the record that is not at all how you build a UW mana base in legacy at all. You would use 4 tundra, 4 flooded strand then more fetches and a few of each basic because wasteland is everywhere and there are only 3 fetches that can't grab a tundra
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Skulltap is kind of stains. What about Flashing back a Cabal Therapy? That way, you can do this with only 4 mana open (off of a Bell the previous turn that's a win right there), and you get two chances to pick answers out of their hand.
The big problem I see with this combo is that Mind over Matter costs 6. It's going to be too tough to get to that in legacy before you get run over by goblins, tarmogoyfs, ravagers, fish, Bobs, etc.
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It isnt as tough as it sounds provided you build towards it and have enough disruption to keep your deck safe which is why I suggest going with it in a Dream Halls progenitus deck rather than it being its own deck all the tools would already be available, it has already established itself within the meta, and isn't as vulnerable to one specific form of disruption, and has reliably gotten dream halls out so it shouldn't be much harder for it to reliably get mind over matter out either
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
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For a casual deck? Looks like lots of fun (especially in EDH, where you've got a much larger library).
EDH:
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Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Agreed. The decking combo is enough in and of itself to win.
I just don't understand what you are trying to say here. Your over-representation of a barely played card if anything shows that you know less about Legacy than you claim. I have designed this deck with the current big names of the format in mind with an eye towards beating them (Zoo, Merfolk, NO CounterTop, New Horizons). While the SCG metagame does not represent the entire world Legacy metagame, it definitely represents the American metgame (where I happen to be), and it definitely informs player decisions abroad. I also do not see where you think you were being "politely helpful". That would have been saying "What does this deck do about forced draw effects?" instead of "You don't know anything about the format, and I do, so let me enlighten you." Addressing flaws is a key process of deckbuilding, as is bringing them up, but not in the way that you have done so.
And as to the overextended point, I really do not see how that is either relevant or helpful, especially because I haven't mentioned it at all in this thread. Helping with deckbuilding is valuable, but random trolling is not.
This is an excellent objection that has an easy solution. Let's assume you combo out on turn 5-6. Your opponent will probably have 5-6 mana in play, a few of which are green. Prior to comboing out, use Mind Over Matter itself to tap as many of their lands/Hierarchs as possible. Once you have done so, end the phase and move to the next one. With the opponent's mana pools now empty, their Krosan Grips that they will inevitably draw will just sit in their hands. This is the most elegant solution to the problem, and it is built into the combo itself.
Thopter-based decks go off a lot later with a control shell. Given this deck's use of Enlightened Tutor, it would be incredibly easy to add in the standard CounterTop package, making 4 of our main deck components tutorable with E-Tutor.
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My biggest worries are not these cards, all of which are used in game 2-3 (with the exception of Stifle in some Merfolk/Tempo Thresh builds, and Needle in some builds running Trinket Mage like Tezzerator and Painter/Stone, although those are not widely played decks). I am far more concerned about the Qasali Pridemage in all 3 games that Zoo brings to the table. A turn 2 Pridemage needs to be killed before I can even cast the Bell, let alone MOM. The most effective solution is just that; kill the Pridemage with Swords or Path, both of which this UW deck could run. Is it enough? Between that, Daze, FoW, and CounterTop, it probably is. But testing would answer that question better than speculation.
The UUUU in MOM is problematic, and definitely requires some creative solutions. Show and Tell is obviously one such solution, an excellent one that gives us an alternate win condition with Emrakul AND accelerates our primary win. But we can't reliably have this card at all time, so we need other options. Here are some options:
1) Lotus Bloom: Could be used with Tezzeret, especially given Tezz's synergy with both Sensei's Divining Top and Temple Bell.
2) Carpet of Flowers: Against a lot of Legacy decks, this gives some huge acceleration starting on turn 1. But against Zoo and Goblins it's a totally dead draw. A bit too inconsistent for my taste.
3) Mystic Gate: Filters our mana, but gives us Wasteland vulnerability. Has an awesome combo with MOM for lots of blue mana but sadly that actually requires the MOM in play...
4) Saprazzan Skerry: Accelerates us into the right colors. The earliest you could combo out with Skerry would be around turn 4 assuming a turn 1 Skerry, turn 2 island, turn 3 island, turn 4 ancient tomb/city of traitors or something to that effect. That's not bad persay, especially on the play, but it's not great either.
5) High Tide: Someone on another forum suggested the Solidarity staple to help combo out. It's not a bad option, but it has us winning at about the same time that the Skerry version wins: turn 4.
Those are some of the options that come to mind. Thoughts on these and other ones?
The most important difference that I see is the ability to get both pieces with Enlightened Tutor, and the fact that both combo pieces are useful on their own. Temple Bell is not a bad card, even with the reciprocal card draw. MOM without the Bell is of course pretty darn powerful. Hive Mind/Pact of the Titan without the other piece, however, is basically a dead draw.
Speed is definitely an issue with the UUUU in the MOM cost, but then again there are plenty of "slow" decks in Legacy that are competitive. We don't need to win right away to play against the fast decks. We just need to keep a stable board state and defend our combo pieces. Against some decks, that's pretty easy (Goblins and Dredge for instance strike me as easy matchups). Against other decks, it's easier said than done (Zoo and Merfolk). But given that this combo only takes up 8 slots, and has overlap in the enchantment/artifact department, you have a lot of extra slots to protect your combo from the standard Legacy perils.
-ktkenshinx-
One copy of Grip could seal your fate with this thing.
That card sees a ton of SB play because its amazing in legacy.
I would consider 4x Orim's Chant just in case of them drawing something relevant. Chant can also buy you time against faster decks kicked. Not to mention the other problem of say a burn type deck waiting till you fill his hand with 2x lightning bolts and a fireblast then just killing you with his two untapped mountains mid-combo I assume he would have gotten you below 10 life by the time this combo comes online minimum.
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