Seems like black will finally get a walker that sees some fair use.
I know lots of people used Lilly 1, but she wasn't really used much competitively in Standard.
Her abilities are cool in EDH, and she isn't overpowered or anything.
What will make Liliana usable to me is that we know this will be a graveyard heavy set, and there still are quite a few cards yet to be revealed--so Liliana's discard will probably sync with that. Plus if you get the chance to use her ultimate, which separates ALL permanents, which includes lands...you could get some devastating results.
Vengeful Pharaoh is draw denial if you keep using Lily's + ability. Also it requires them to hurt you! So there is no bonus really. If it was go back to your hand then the two would be freaking amazing together. With what we have now, she is slightly below average.
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To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
her ultimate can really cripple an opponent(or help you)
imagine someone having to choose whether they keep their lands or their creatures? the combinations of different piles that make an opponent lose value go on and on.
Solid solid card. Great for control decks. It will likely get better as the set is spoiled. Depending on the quality of flashback and other graveyard based spells it could become a powerhouse. Nice walker.
She reminds me a lot of Chandra, the Firebrand. But here's the thing: one less mana. Also her +1 could be quite crippling if you're using your graveyard and your opponent isn't. Three mana, three mana, oh my..
I wish Grim Discovery was sticking around.
I don't think everyone sees the expanded use of the card, and each ability. I suppose some people don't remember Squee, Goblin Nabob. There are other synergistic cards using flashback that have been printed over time. However for standard purposes, she will most likely see some sort of exploitation in a G/B/U or U/W/B. Since blue has all sorts of decent dual lands to choose from. During the interview with Aaron Forscythe he said there would be a good cantrip in the set as well.
I'm most likely going to buy a couple boxes and hope for the best since the second she sees standard play or any spots in a T8, expect her value to rise significantly.
As is, it is not too powerful. In MBC it is reasonable at parity since it can start kill a creature, or start pumping loyalty if your opponent has nothing out. However, without a way to feed the +1 you are put in the awkward position of discarding buisness or lands while be left wide open to O-Ring or direct damage. I see too many situations where you can't use the +1 without pitching something you really want, can't use the -2 because it is ineffective for the board state, and just have to leave her sitting there doing nothing.
That being said, if there is any card that can be cheaply (3-4 mana) and repeatably returned from grave to hand this will become a very strong PW. Right now their is no single card that really breaks the parity well.
Oh, and on the topic of Jace B vs lili 2.0, I think in a generic control shell Jace is better. Over 2 turns you have a net gain of +1 CA and +1 loyalty vs +1 CA (assuming you kill a relevant non-token creature) and -1 loyalty. Plus, Jace is a better topdeck vs an empty board since you can just start drawing cards for yourself. However, Lili has more potential to be built around, and a unique deck tailored to her needs will make her more powerful than Jace B.
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A three-mana Cruel Edict is playable, if unexciting. A three-mana permanent Flashback engine is playable AND exciting. Liliana is extremely deck-dependent, and will not see much play in Limited (unlike every other planeswalker printed thus far, she doesn't win the game on her own), but she is EXTREMELY rewarding to properly considered deck design.
I can't believe anyone is excited about this card. It is absolutely unplayable. I wouldn't even play her in LIMITED. Easily the worst walker printed since the green elf one. Absolutely terrible.
Personally i feel like shes garbage... If you didn't have to discard a card it would be BOMB. Unless some good flashback cards w/ Lower flash back cost are printed i don't thinks shes worth the slot. I really wanted her to be good.
The fact that she comes down turn 3 gives her a much larger amount of time to crank out advantage from her loyalty abilities, since the board will be a lot cleaner turn three than it will a turn or two later. And thankfully, her -2 gives you a way to keep the board clear. Her +1 cuts away your opponent's means to get rid of her, and if they don't, then a growing Liliana makes it harder and harder to stick anything.
She's severely weakened by token decks and not too exciting against fast aggro decks, and the presence of inkmoth nexus to kill her the turn after she comes down if she does -1 is unfortunate, but I'm remaining pretty optimistic about her playability. Against aggro decks she'll get rid of one of the creatures while diverting their attacks, which gives you time to get more mana for turn 4/5 Black Sun's Zenith. Token decks, she could just get sideboarded out. As for inkmoth nexus, I'm wondering how well pitching vengeful pharoah would work. If you're discarding to her +1 every turn, losing a land like that isn't much of an option, but that already implies that you used her +1 first instead of -2 anyways, so meh. Like I said in another thread, if I'm occupying two of their mana for the one extra I paid for Liliana over an Edict, that seems like an okay deal anyways.
Personally, I'm hoping for a cheap discard spell with flashback.
I think Lily is pretty decent, on the level of the other walkers that have been printed in the past year. I will agree that it's bad with flashback (using two cards to get a discard and a Blaze is worse than 2 Blazes in one card) but I don't think that Lily is anywhere near useless. She's great with Madness, Hellbent, Infernal Tutor, Life from the Loam, and a bunch of other Modern cards that I can't think of right now. I'm sure that ISD block will give us something that works just as well whether it is in your graveyard or hand, just like Bloodghast and Vengevine, and I think we'll just have to wait and find out what those cards are.
I can't believe anyone is excited about this card. It is absolutely unplayable. I wouldn't even play her in LIMITED. Easily the worst walker printed since the green elf one. Absolutely terrible.
Cruel Edict for three mana is good in Limited, and Liliana is strictly better.
LOL@ all of these Standard noobs that can't see past one format.
Basically, she is great as long as you can break the symmetry of her +1. In Standard, so far, there really isn't anything as the two bestsubjects are rotating and no contender has stepped up yet in Innistrad.
In Legacy, however, that symmetry is broken regularly. Probably Modern too.
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"I don't know why people say a double-edged sword is bad. It's a sword. With two edges." - Kamahl, Pit Fighter
In Legacy, however, that symmetry is broken regularly. Probably Modern too.
Really doubt any playability of this in Legacy, possibility Modern but I kind of doubt it.
I definitely think she has potential in standard (he says before we have all of Innistrad) because I think decks are going to slow down a bit. A lot of really aggro cards are leaving (Goblin Guide, Vengevine, a good number of great vampires) while I don't think slower decks are taking as big of a hit. So I think her 3cc is just fast enough to make her playable.
She's gonna be awesome in limited. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Even if she just edicts once that'll be just fine. Edict, discard, discard, edict will put you pretty far ahead.
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Liliana is miles better than Chandra, the Firebrand and will definitely see play across multiple formats, including block constructed, sealed, and draft.
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I think Lily is pretty decent, on the level of the other walkers that have been printed in the past year. I will agree that it's bad with flashback (using two cards to get a discard and a Blaze is worse than 2 Blazes in one card) but I don't think that Lily is anywhere near useless. She's great with Madness, Hellbent, Infernal Tutor, Life from the Loam, and a bunch of other Modern cards that I can't think of right now. I'm sure that ISD block will give us something that works just as well whether it is in your graveyard or hand, just like Bloodghast and Vengevine, and I think we'll just have to wait and find out what those cards are.
Cruel Edict for three mana is good in Limited, and Liliana is strictly better.
The ultimate is actually way better than Do or Die because it says make piles of all permanents while do or die is all creatures, so you could put all of their lands in one pile and all of their creatures in another.
I personally am looking at her purely in terms of modern right now - she just SCREAMS build a madness deck around me.
Sideboarded big game hunters can kill 12post, and there's tons of cool modern-legal madness/unearth/flashback stuff for her to make use of.
She costs 1 less than I was honestly expecting her to cost, and her abilities are a mix of "utility" and "break me!" Obviously the discard isn't as good if you keep it purely symmetrical. So then, obviously, the goal is to break the symmetry. This isn't rocket science, and it's a graveyard block. I can totally envision a return of u/b control, utilizing the more powerful and/or cheap flashback spells, graveyard resistant creatures (or something you want in your graveyard, like the new 6-drop Spirit dude that I forget the name of), and solid beaters.
And she might even see play in Modern, based on her utility and any other support spells. A three-drop walker not only gives me utility (do I use her -2, pop my opponent's creature and let her die next turn when my opponent attacks into her with something else, or do I force him to discard something he needs and use Liliana as a shield?), but also gives me options. A turn three Liliana ditching a beater, only to reanimate that beater next turn with something like Zombify - That's a pretty good curve for a mono black deck. Throw in a first turn Thoughtseize, and I bet your opponent is not in good shape.
I'm working on a reanimator, but she could go in Pox, MBC, UB control, BW control (with Sun Titan, yeeeaaaahh!)...she's pretty one-sided if you even partially build your list to use her. I don't really see how people are unimpressed with her.
Also, if anyone has any ideas for decklists using her, either Standard or Modern, don't be afraid to post and start brewing
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I know lots of people used Lilly 1, but she wasn't really used much competitively in Standard.
Her abilities are cool in EDH, and she isn't overpowered or anything.
Hope Garruk comes out as balanced.
im guessing 2 abilities for each side. the thing thatl make him strong or meh is whether only his controller has control of his transformation, hmmm.
i really could care less im just stoked about liliana, but he should be interesting as well
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her ultimate can really cripple an opponent(or help you)
imagine someone having to choose whether they keep their lands or their creatures? the combinations of different piles that make an opponent lose value go on and on.
I like it. a lot.
I wish Grim Discovery was sticking around.
I'm most likely going to buy a couple boxes and hope for the best since the second she sees standard play or any spots in a T8, expect her value to rise significantly.
That being said, if there is any card that can be cheaply (3-4 mana) and repeatably returned from grave to hand this will become a very strong PW. Right now their is no single card that really breaks the parity well.
Oh, and on the topic of Jace B vs lili 2.0, I think in a generic control shell Jace is better. Over 2 turns you have a net gain of +1 CA and +1 loyalty vs +1 CA (assuming you kill a relevant non-token creature) and -1 loyalty. Plus, Jace is a better topdeck vs an empty board since you can just start drawing cards for yourself. However, Lili has more potential to be built around, and a unique deck tailored to her needs will make her more powerful than Jace B.
I kill you with
it.
She's severely weakened by token decks and not too exciting against fast aggro decks, and the presence of inkmoth nexus to kill her the turn after she comes down if she does -1 is unfortunate, but I'm remaining pretty optimistic about her playability. Against aggro decks she'll get rid of one of the creatures while diverting their attacks, which gives you time to get more mana for turn 4/5 Black Sun's Zenith. Token decks, she could just get sideboarded out. As for inkmoth nexus, I'm wondering how well pitching vengeful pharoah would work. If you're discarding to her +1 every turn, losing a land like that isn't much of an option, but that already implies that you used her +1 first instead of -2 anyways, so meh. Like I said in another thread, if I'm occupying two of their mana for the one extra I paid for Liliana over an Edict, that seems like an okay deal anyways.
Personally, I'm hoping for a cheap discard spell with flashback.
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you dont have to use her abalitys every turn sometimes -2 on t3 then sitting for a bit
while you get CA then using her +1 to grind them out
Cruel Edict for three mana is good in Limited, and Liliana is strictly better.
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Basically, she is great as long as you can break the symmetry of her +1. In Standard, so far, there really isn't anything as the two best subjects are rotating and no contender has stepped up yet in Innistrad.
In Legacy, however, that symmetry is broken regularly. Probably Modern too.
Really doubt any playability of this in Legacy, possibility Modern but I kind of doubt it.
I definitely think she has potential in standard (he says before we have all of Innistrad) because I think decks are going to slow down a bit. A lot of really aggro cards are leaving (Goblin Guide, Vengevine, a good number of great vampires) while I don't think slower decks are taking as big of a hit. So I think her 3cc is just fast enough to make her playable.
She's gonna be awesome in limited. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Even if she just edicts once that'll be just fine. Edict, discard, discard, edict will put you pretty far ahead.
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Mycosyth Lattice, Night of souls' betrayal, March of the machines and Elesh norn, grand cenobite beg to differ. To have some more valid examples, Cloudstone Curio+Beast within or simply Stifle.
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(filter->rarity to see in set rarity).
I'm not sure which point you're arguing against.
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The strictly better one.
Sorry about that, don't know how to partial quote.
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(filter->rarity to see in set rarity).
Sideboarded big game hunters can kill 12post, and there's tons of cool modern-legal madness/unearth/flashback stuff for her to make use of.
UWBSharuum the HegemonBWU
UAzami, Lady of ScrollsU
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryGU
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestGU
She costs 1 less than I was honestly expecting her to cost, and her abilities are a mix of "utility" and "break me!" Obviously the discard isn't as good if you keep it purely symmetrical. So then, obviously, the goal is to break the symmetry. This isn't rocket science, and it's a graveyard block. I can totally envision a return of u/b control, utilizing the more powerful and/or cheap flashback spells, graveyard resistant creatures (or something you want in your graveyard, like the new 6-drop Spirit dude that I forget the name of), and solid beaters.
And she might even see play in Modern, based on her utility and any other support spells. A three-drop walker not only gives me utility (do I use her -2, pop my opponent's creature and let her die next turn when my opponent attacks into her with something else, or do I force him to discard something he needs and use Liliana as a shield?), but also gives me options. A turn three Liliana ditching a beater, only to reanimate that beater next turn with something like Zombify - That's a pretty good curve for a mono black deck. Throw in a first turn Thoughtseize, and I bet your opponent is not in good shape.
I'm working on a reanimator, but she could go in Pox, MBC, UB control, BW control (with Sun Titan, yeeeaaaahh!)...she's pretty one-sided if you even partially build your list to use her. I don't really see how people are unimpressed with her.
Also, if anyone has any ideas for decklists using her, either Standard or Modern, don't be afraid to post and start brewing