At the bottom of Devin's Article today, the poll question is: 'Have you ever played in a group with house rules that ban cards for being too annoying?'
With the B/R updates coming tomorrow, that means that NEXT WEEK'S Low article will address why the changes (if any) are made to the list. Given the question, I think they may have seriously considered banning a card in a major format just because it was 'too annoying.'
Shaharazad was essentially banned for that reason in the last list update (they didn't want people to abuse the playing multiple games mechanic to stall games). I think something like Counterbalance could fit that bill in extended, being too annoying for just sitting there and randomly countering spells. It could also refer to Sensei's Divining Top in extended. While the card is not broken in the format, it certainly is annoying to have each player look at the top three cards of his deck every turn and adding multiple shuffling effects to the deck to make the top even better (the Erik Lauer Experience, i do believe).
I don't have any inside information, but it may not just be wild speculation on my part. What do you all think?
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FWIW I especially doubt that they'll ever ban Counterbalance. It's part of their plan to make cards with higher CMCs more playable, which I don't think they'll abandon anytime soon.
As far as the general idea of banning cards simply for being annoying...meh, I doubt it. "Annoying" is too subjective.
FWIW I especially doubt that they'll ever ban Counterbalance. It's part of their plan to make cards with higher CMCs more playable, which I don't think they'll abandon anytime soon.
As far as the general idea of banning cards simply for being annoying...meh, I doubt it. "Annoying" is too subjective.
it doesn't make higher cc matter. it makes cmc matter.
it doesn't make higher cc matter. it makes cmc matter.
a revealed dsc won;t counter your mox.
It rather does. If you play a counterblanace deck, you will constantly encounter situations such as this.
If your opponent plays a spell with CMC 1 or 2 or 3 that you want to counter, you can Sensei easily and counter it. However, if they play a high CMC finisher, counterbalance is very unlikely to find a solution above CMC 4 or so.
Almost all decks have cards with CMC 2 or 3. Anything above 4 becomes unreliably variable.
Albeit, that is when you follow up with a counter from hand.
In the Vintage section of SCGs forums, there is always bicker about B&R updates (including removal and additions.)
That's mostly because Vintage is the area to see the most likely changes than any other format.
As far as Vintage goes, there is always a routine to discuss changes to the list a week (or two) prior to the changes occurring. This is usually because about a week (or two) before the Announcement, WotC holds their meeting to actually discuss the past few months reasons for any changes.
We do know that the voices of the people are heard, as Mike Turian posted that he'd take Stephen's B&R "Suggestions" list to the meeting to make discussion points with the others on the matter.
As far as EXT and STD goes: I see no changes. Ext is healthy, as always is, with no dominating or overly powerful deck. It's housing the best cards from the last 20 sets. EXT is always a fascinating format because the decks are nothing but good cards from every set that's legal.
For the record, I don't keep up with Prismatic (despite playing it, just casually) or Online formats to even attempt to say if a card needs to be dealt with from a new or existing set.
@Annoying: The degree of annoying is either small or large, no where in between. Annoying borderlines "hate" so much, that it's sometimes hard to see a difference the degree of annoyance is very large.
So, some players are annoyed by Counterspell (the 2-mana spell,) but not by "counterspells" in general. On the other hand, you have those who hate "counterspells" altogether, but annoyed by instant-speed card-drawing (with card quantity, not quality involved.)
This example is showing how Blue was a targeted color for change over the years in general in design, not B&R updates.
They do listen to you, just not when you a possible annoyance Banned or Restricted. If it's way too good and everyone plays it because it that good, then that's a difference "annoyance", in my opinion.
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-- Duncan McGregor, DCI L3 Judge, while playing his "judgebreaker" deck in an IRL EDH game
Well, if being annoying is a relevant factor, then Mindslaver would probably be the first card to go. Other then that I wonder what stand will they take on Tarmogoyf and what will happen to dredge.
Also, has anyone considered that they might actually, unban something? Possibly Entomb?
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Has anyone considered the option that the "big change" could be referring to unbanning cards? Something like Entomb or dare I say it Skullclamp might be at just the right power level for extended.
Though that might be a stretch, especially with the rotation this fall, I still see it as a possiblility that no one has yet adressed.
Entomb and Skullclamp are both stupid good for Extended. Entomb powers Dredge even more, and it's already a strong deck in the format. Skullclamp is....Skullclamp! Wizards themselves has admitted that it was a mistake, unbanning it would also be a mistake, it makes decks (not just Affinity) just too good.
I do hope there is a change to the Vintage (and even Legacy) BnR list. The last change was for the better (despite the huge shock of unbanning Gush to begin with), and I'd be interested to see what the DCI does now.
In answer to the 'house rules' question, yes. we played at a friend's house after we had our fun playing table-top rpg's like star wars, vampire being the ones we played on a weekly rotating basis. we could play whatever we wanted really, with exceptions of a few things: no circles of protection, or abilities pertaining thereof, no counterspells, and creatures couldn't have protection from colors as well. and we'd be assigned what type of color(s) to play every week, and we also did the tribal thing at one point before tribal ever got popular with onslaught. fun times.
and unrestricting balance in vintage would probably be nuts.
I hate to bring it up, but someone's gonna do it.....
I imagine there are a bunch of brain-dead turds hoping and praying that Extended's favorite blunt object, Tarmogoyf gets the axe despite the fact that it doesn't deserve a ban, is beatable, and has numerous answers even after the pending rotation in October.
Yet, its still possible.
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i don't see it getting banned. people just like to complain. and you're right about their being answers in getting rid/controlling tarmagoyf. i thinka lot of people would probably complain more if it did get banned, especially if they were the ones dropping $100-$200 a playset. i will always kick myself for not buying them at $2 each when they debuted.
i remember when people whined about affinity being too powerful, and i saw it coming when disciple of the vault was going to get it, and they actually made a right choice there. same with skullclamp. goblins really abused that one.
I think i might have found the solution to the annoying CB(though i really love that card and have no hate for it at all) in the all powerful, unbanning of, Aether Vial.
entomb COULD be unbanned with the addition of both leyline and crypt to the format. its not like there isnt hate.
saying tarmogoyf shouldnt be banned because it can be removed is stupid. goyf can be a 6/7 by turn 3. just cause there's removal in the format doesnt mean you have to dedicate 4 smother to your deck to stop the beast. after all skullclamp is banned despite shatter, fury charm, ancient grudge, ingot chewer, disenchant, naturalize, oxidize, and shattering spree being legal in the format.
after all skullclamp is banned despite shatter, fury charm, ancient grudge, ingot chewer, disenchant, naturalize, oxidize, and shattering spree being legal in the format.
But the thing is that Skullclamp wasn't banned due to lack of viable answers. There's always answers to everything.
The problem was that every deck that has mana sources can run it easily. You either ran it, or absolutely HAD to maindeck hate specifically for Skullclamp.
That being said, the inclusion of Leyline and Pithing Needle being typcially ran in decks already, Skullclamp would just be another thing to hate against. However, I don't think it's nearly enough to unban it 'just to see' if it's okay.
The issue with banning cards isn't a lack of answers, but the fact that it made many decks degenerate and when sitting down to make a deck the first questions didn't involve what colors/archetypes you'd build, but rather 'will I play or fight this card?'.
I think that the environment is better than it was 3-4 years ago, but it's just not worth unbanning. Since the upcoming extended rotation still leaves Affinity as a fast deck, Skullclamp just makes it that much faster, and it doesn't need that.
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sooooo... i m not sure what does it mean... extended is going to rotate on the release of rock (is it eveningtide? or the block after?) and is going to rotate at the same date every year , one block each time.
for the update to the B&R list , they ve done nothing or did it got postponed ?
They have 'No Changes' listed for all formats.
Lot of needed tinkering with MTGO though, especially with Vanguard.
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Waiting patiently for MTGO Leagues to become a priority again. It's been 4 years :sick:.
Drop by my Helpdesk if you have any questions/concerns on the Limited forum.
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So uh... yeah, another year of Fetchlands in extended? Perhaps Goblins could make a huge comeback, after all, it doesn't lose anything relevant but Goblin Matron. Thats just odd, but what ever, I guess they want to get rid of Affinity faster as those Mirrodin cards just got their extended rotation sped up by a year.
This might be a sign that they want fetches in extended and to hint at the enemy ones being printed in rock, with a full 10 set in 11th edition. I had a sneaky suspecion that it was not banning a card but doing something funky like this.
This might be a sign that they want fetches in extended and to hint at the enemy ones being printed in rock, with a full 10 set in 11th edition. I had a sneaky suspecion that it was not banning a card but doing something funky like this.
Yeah. Although it could also just be a sign that, as has been the case before, powerful lands are the most important cards in Extended. They changed the rotation rules to keep the original dual-lands Extended legal for a whole three years longer than they "should" have been; this could be the same kind of change.
I don't know how I feel about the "rotate one block every year" idea... I liked that Extended would transform into an entirely new format every few years, and everything people knew pretty much had to be thrown out.
At the bottom of Devin's Article today, the poll question is: 'Have you ever played in a group with house rules that ban cards for being too annoying?'
With the B/R updates coming tomorrow, that means that NEXT WEEK'S Low article will address why the changes (if any) are made to the list. Given the question, I think they may have seriously considered banning a card in a major format just because it was 'too annoying.'
Shaharazad was essentially banned for that reason in the last list update (they didn't want people to abuse the playing multiple games mechanic to stall games). I think something like Counterbalance could fit that bill in extended, being too annoying for just sitting there and randomly countering spells. It could also refer to Sensei's Divining Top in extended. While the card is not broken in the format, it certainly is annoying to have each player look at the top three cards of his deck every turn and adding multiple shuffling effects to the deck to make the top even better (the Erik Lauer Experience, i do believe).
I don't have any inside information, but it may not just be wild speculation on my part. What do you all think?
As far as the general idea of banning cards simply for being annoying...meh, I doubt it. "Annoying" is too subjective.
it doesn't make higher cc matter. it makes cmc matter.
a revealed dsc won;t counter your mox.
If your opponent plays a spell with CMC 1 or 2 or 3 that you want to counter, you can Sensei easily and counter it. However, if they play a high CMC finisher, counterbalance is very unlikely to find a solution above CMC 4 or so.
Almost all decks have cards with CMC 2 or 3. Anything above 4 becomes unreliably variable.
Albeit, that is when you follow up with a counter from hand.
That's mostly because Vintage is the area to see the most likely changes than any other format.
As far as Vintage goes, there is always a routine to discuss changes to the list a week (or two) prior to the changes occurring. This is usually because about a week (or two) before the Announcement, WotC holds their meeting to actually discuss the past few months reasons for any changes.
We do know that the voices of the people are heard, as Mike Turian posted that he'd take Stephen's B&R "Suggestions" list to the meeting to make discussion points with the others on the matter.
As far as EXT and STD goes: I see no changes. Ext is healthy, as always is, with no dominating or overly powerful deck. It's housing the best cards from the last 20 sets. EXT is always a fascinating format because the decks are nothing but good cards from every set that's legal.
For the record, I don't keep up with Prismatic (despite playing it, just casually) or Online formats to even attempt to say if a card needs to be dealt with from a new or existing set.
@Annoying: The degree of annoying is either small or large, no where in between. Annoying borderlines "hate" so much, that it's sometimes hard to see a difference the degree of annoyance is very large.
So, some players are annoyed by Counterspell (the 2-mana spell,) but not by "counterspells" in general. On the other hand, you have those who hate "counterspells" altogether, but annoyed by instant-speed card-drawing (with card quantity, not quality involved.)
This example is showing how Blue was a targeted color for change over the years in general in design, not B&R updates.
They do listen to you, just not when you a possible annoyance Banned or Restricted. If it's way too good and everyone plays it because it that good, then that's a difference "annoyance", in my opinion.
-- Duncan McGregor, DCI L3 Judge, while playing his "judgebreaker" deck in an IRL EDH game
Also, has anyone considered that they might actually, unban something? Possibly Entomb?
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=532795
Though that might be a stretch, especially with the rotation this fall, I still see it as a possiblility that no one has yet adressed.
I do hope there is a change to the Vintage (and even Legacy) BnR list. The last change was for the better (despite the huge shock of unbanning Gush to begin with), and I'd be interested to see what the DCI does now.
I don't see any changes in Standard or Extended, and I don't know enough about Legacy to comment.
EDH:
UBGThe MimeoplasmUBG
No changes to Extended
Random cards that are completely unplayable unbanned in Legacy
Possibly relevant change in Vintage
and unrestricting balance in vintage would probably be nuts.
I imagine there are a bunch of brain-dead turds hoping and praying that Extended's favorite blunt object, Tarmogoyf gets the axe despite the fact that it doesn't deserve a ban, is beatable, and has numerous answers even after the pending rotation in October.
Yet, its still possible.
Some people just love Jace a little too much
i remember when people whined about affinity being too powerful, and i saw it coming when disciple of the vault was going to get it, and they actually made a right choice there. same with skullclamp. goblins really abused that one.
saying tarmogoyf shouldnt be banned because it can be removed is stupid. goyf can be a 6/7 by turn 3. just cause there's removal in the format doesnt mean you have to dedicate 4 smother to your deck to stop the beast. after all skullclamp is banned despite shatter, fury charm, ancient grudge, ingot chewer, disenchant, naturalize, oxidize, and shattering spree being legal in the format.
b/r changes take effect on the 20th of the month, iirc.
and no, they're not going to unban entomb. it doesn't seem like that much of an enabler, but trust me on this- you don't want that card unbanned.
Aether Vial- staying banned. it made control completely unplayable when it was legal before it was banned.
Skullclamp- You're f***ing kidding me, right?
as for legacy, i don't care.
and vintage. as dumb as it was to unrestrict gush, wotc will leave the format alone.
But the thing is that Skullclamp wasn't banned due to lack of viable answers. There's always answers to everything.
The problem was that every deck that has mana sources can run it easily. You either ran it, or absolutely HAD to maindeck hate specifically for Skullclamp.
That being said, the inclusion of Leyline and Pithing Needle being typcially ran in decks already, Skullclamp would just be another thing to hate against. However, I don't think it's nearly enough to unban it 'just to see' if it's okay.
The issue with banning cards isn't a lack of answers, but the fact that it made many decks degenerate and when sitting down to make a deck the first questions didn't involve what colors/archetypes you'd build, but rather 'will I play or fight this card?'.
I think that the environment is better than it was 3-4 years ago, but it's just not worth unbanning. Since the upcoming extended rotation still leaves Affinity as a fast deck, Skullclamp just makes it that much faster, and it doesn't need that.
Drop by my Helpdesk if you have any questions/concerns on the Limited forum.
Excited for M13 Limited? What do you think the format will look like? Head over to the limited forum and let us know what you think.
They have 'No Changes' listed for all formats.
Lot of needed tinkering with MTGO though, especially with Vanguard.
Drop by my Helpdesk if you have any questions/concerns on the Limited forum.
Excited for M13 Limited? What do you think the format will look like? Head over to the limited forum and let us know what you think.
Yeah. Although it could also just be a sign that, as has been the case before, powerful lands are the most important cards in Extended. They changed the rotation rules to keep the original dual-lands Extended legal for a whole three years longer than they "should" have been; this could be the same kind of change.
I don't know how I feel about the "rotate one block every year" idea... I liked that Extended would transform into an entirely new format every few years, and everything people knew pretty much had to be thrown out.
Well, looks like I'll have to bite the bullet.