This is scarier in multiples than painlands are... so I hope these don't see print. These could be interesting, if somewhat misleading:
Grassy Field
Land- Forest Plains (t: Add G or W to your mana pool.)
When ~ comes into play, tap target land you control.
It can make mana on turn 1, is pretty elegant, and isn't better than a basic land. Discuss.
Far too powerfull.
As far as you need to tap at least one land during your turn, it has no drawback.
I feel it wouldn't be balanced for all colors as U tends to play during other players turns, and well the other colors don't.
I liked this a lot, but as the new duals will not have any search, mill,life loss or too complicated mechanics, i am still supporting the reveal cards with color X and Y from hand or CIPT.
I understand why they would never print these proposed lands because they would likely be played in every competitive format. They are both weaker than Alpha duals, both are weaker in what the Onslaught fetch lands can do and basically on par with what the shocklands can do. Shocklands have a bigger effect in the long haul whereas these lands give you options which limit your future mana production. They do not net you extra mana, only one thins your deck but is limited to a "basic" land (and only one basic type), the other is a pseudo lotus petal but can be a basic if it needs to be.
Personally, I think both designs are elegant and not overpowered yet would see play in many decks. They are suseptable Wasteland and Stifle effects. They would be fun to play and obviously Wizards is not interested in printing them.
From everything I've read, the option I like the most is the following.
Sleeping Volcano
Land t: Add 1 to your mana pool. t : Add R or U to your mana pool. Play this ability only during your turn.
It seems quite interesting to me even if it pushes aggro a little bit more than control. Still, the "during your turn" include the End of Turn and the Upkeep so it's not THAT bad for control. They just have to play differently and use some basic lands along with it.
Otherwise, the only other viable option except painlands seems to be the CIPT option, but really, I don't like this one as it hurts aggro quite more than it hurts control. And as far as I'm concerned, the actual metagame is filled with CIPT lands... more of them wouldn't be quite exciting.
Maybe they'll reprint Horizon Canopy and make it a template for all the other lands? It would be good for control AND aggro while making burn and life gain more valuable (two strategies not really used theses days).
From everything I've read, the option I like the most is the following.
Sleeping Volcano
Land t: Add 1 to your mana pool. t : Add R or U to your mana pool. Play this ability only during your turn.
It seems quite interesting to me even if it pushes aggro a little bit more than control. Still, the "during your turn" include the End of Turn and the Upkeep so it's not THAT bad for control. They just have to play differently and use some basic lands along with it.
Otherwise, the only other viable option except painlands seems to be the CIPT option, but really, I don't like this one as it hurts aggro quite more than it hurts control. And as far as I'm concerned, the actual metagame is filled with CIPT lands... more of them wouldn't be quite exciting.
Maybe they'll reprint Horizon Canopy and make it a template for all the other lands? It would be good for control AND aggro while making burn and life gain more valuable (two strategies not really used theses days).
After all, it was future shifted...
They specifically said that taking damage (losing life) was not an option for these lands because it scares away new players from wanting to use them.
Does anyone know if they have totally ruled out using the future style lands? Some of them would be interesting like River of Tears.
They specifically said that taking damage (losing life) was not an option for these lands because it scares away new players from wanting to use them.
Does anyone know if they have totally ruled out using the future style lands? Some of them would be interesting like River of Tears.
I'm glad to ear that... I'm sick of painlands and CIPT lands... I hope for something different.
The River of Tears is quite similar to the "only during your turn" option except it is harder to balance for all the colors. For exemple, for UB, you choose to give U during the opponent's turn. Are you gonna do the same for UW or are you gonna give W on the opponent turn?
That would mean UB would be immediatly forced to take the counterspells route (U = broken ambition during opponent's turn) while UW take the removal route (W = path to exile during opponent's turn).
Still.... both of them share blue... so it sounds weird that one of them don't have access to blue mana on the turn of the opponent. And if you give blue mana to both lands on the turn of the opponent, you still have the same problem with UW, WG, GR and RB.
Additionnally, for a core set, it need quite some skills to play around the "when does I play my land".
Clear-cut Valley
Land
~ comes into play with 3 resource counters on it. T: Add 1 to your mana pool. T, remove a resource counter from ~: Add G or W to your mana pool. If there are no resource counters on ~, sacrifice it.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
Clear-cut Valley
Land
~ comes into play with 3 resource counters on it. T: Add 1 to your mana pool. T, remove a resource counter from ~: Add G or W to your mana pool. If there are no resource counters on ~, sacrifice it.
T: Add to your mana pool. Put a charge counter on ~.
T, remove a charge counter from Haunted Catacombs: Add or to your mana pool.
I kinda like this one. However, you may want to add "Comes into play with a charge counter" to allow for first turn dual. Apparently, first-turn duality is one of the expectations of the new lands. The model you propose would allow for alternating turn duality, or buildup duality via counters for later turns, which I think is an interesting flexibility. Though, I don't know how this compares with the expected power level.
These lands will almost definitely not use counters. We've been told that they will be elegant, and that means that there will probably be no counters or having to remember things about the lands over multiple turns.
Pay-Scrubland
Land - Plains Swamp
As Pay-Scrub comes into play, you may pay :1mana:. If you don't, Pay-Scrub comes into play tapped.
:symtap:: Add or to your mana pool.
It's neither strictly better or worse than the Shocklands, and it doesn't obsolete any other lands really.
Pay-Scrubland
Land - Plains Swamp
As Pay-Scrub comes into play, you may pay :1mana:. If you don't, Pay-Scrub comes into play tapped.
:symtap:: Add or to your mana pool.
It's neither strictly better or worse than the Shocklands, and it doesn't obsolete any other lands really.
This is hardly any better than an Invasion CIPT land; it is certainly nowhere near the appropriate power level for a rare land (and one that is supposed to sell its set at that).
Exactly.
Lets compare it to a regular tapland.
When is a tapland fine? When you don't have any plays using the land for the turn if it came into play untapped.
When you are digging for your 5th land or 4th land, and need to hit that 4 or 5 drop, and reveal the proposed land or a tapland...there is no difference.
The situations where its drawback is better than a tapland are few and far between.
It is strictly worse than the shocklands, I don't see how you could say that it isn't. You can use them turn one, and they can increase your total available mana by one the turn they drop if you want.
Giving a nonbasic land types does not ratchet up its power considerably.
See Murmuring Bosk. It had plenty of synergy with treefolk stuff, but it was not as amazing as everyone originally thought.
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It is strictly worse than the shocklands, I don't see how you could say that it isn't. You can use them turn one, and they can increase your total available mana by one the turn they drop if you want.
The pay or CITPT land is Significantly Worse then a Shockland, but it is not Strictly Worse (if your at two life, need the second white for a Wrath and have enough total lands its a better draw).
Seems the best lands are the collection of Opponent may Scry/Fateseal style lands (or CITPT). I am still really liking the Legendary lands with landcycling, but they should probably wait for a set that supports landcycling rather then spell it out on the land itself.
Does make me wish there were an additional super type that worked like Legendary does, but only for one player (ie you can only control one of this card, but each player can have thier own) Fabled or Storied, Rare would be nice, but get confusing.
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(U/B) is :symbu: or :symub: and the same is true for the other 9 hybrid symbols with their two colors in for the last 2 leters of the code. ((2/B) and co are :sym2b:)
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B) T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
I've seen many guesses, but none of them seem to fit on what WotC determined.
"-These lands are replacing the Painlands. These lands allow the option of one of two colors on turn one. The new lands have to be able to do this to be a success."
So forget restrictions that would not let you have two mana options on turn one.
I'm guessing that they will have a drawback that won't be expensive. If the game keeps going on the same trail as the last few expansions, the Dual Lands will have to be playable in a manner that won't cost you too much in order to use them.
Let's try to list the possible resources that can be expended:
- Cards: in hand, in library or in graveyard.
- Permanents in play, yours and your opponent's.
- Life: yours and opponent's.
- Turns.
- Phases.
- Mana currently available.
- Reusability (mostly involving counters or staying tapped.)
- Power / thoughness of creatures.
- Haste / trample / etc of creatures (land could give your opp creatures haste for a turn, for example).
- Colors of spells and permanents.
- Protection.
- Returning spells from the graveyard.
- Bouncing permanents.
- Other permanents coming into play tapped.
- Others? Surely there is more.
So, here are a few suggestion:
Tap-land
When ~ comes into play, all non-land permanents come into play tapped until EOT.
T: add X or Y to your mana pool.
Phase-land
~ Can only be played during your 1st main phase.
When ~ comes into play, skip your second main phase.
T: add X or Y to your mana pool.
Pro-land
When ~ comes into play, all permanents not controlled by you gain protection from a color of its controller's choice.
T: add X or Y to your mana pool.
So Flagstones spinoff seems the best so far... it's good enough to justify a 4-of, without being ridiculous because multiples begin to limit your mana flexibility.
Flag-Scrubland
Legendary Land - Plains Swamp
When Flag-Scrubland is put into a graveyard from play, you may search your library for a basic Plains or basic Swamp and put it into play tapped.
:symtap:: Add or to your mana pool.
So Flagstones spinoff seems the best so far... it's good enough to justify a 4-of, without being ridiculous because multiples begin to limit your mana flexibility.
Flag-Scrubland
Legendary Land - Plains Swamp
When Flag-Scrubland is put into a graveyard from play, you may search your library for a basic Plains or basic Swamp and put it into play tapped.
:symtap:: Add or to your mana pool.
But it's basically strictly better than the original Flags, which I'm not sure WotC would be too keen about. Remember, the original Flags saw tournament play.
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They call me Hadoken 'cause I'm down-right fierce.
Insert Land Name
Nonbasic Land
Tap: Add 1 to your manapool.
Swampcycling 1
Mountaincycling 1
Edit-This way, it wouldnt cost life, but its not better than the original fetches either.
Edit2-Just realized...cycling is a block mechanic =\. Probably wouldnt get done.
Insert Land Name
Nonbasic Land
Tap: Add 1 to your manapool.
Swampcycling 1
Mountaincycling 1
Edit-This way, it wouldnt cost life, but its not better than the original fetches either.
Edit2-Just realized...cycling is a block mechanic =\. Probably wouldnt get done.
It also wouldn't warrant the Rare power level.
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Far too powerfull.
As far as you need to tap at least one land during your turn, it has no drawback.
I feel it wouldn't be balanced for all colors as U tends to play during other players turns, and well the other colors don't.
Still, I think it is too powerfull as proposed.
I understand why they would never print these proposed lands because they would likely be played in every competitive format. They are both weaker than Alpha duals, both are weaker in what the Onslaught fetch lands can do and basically on par with what the shocklands can do. Shocklands have a bigger effect in the long haul whereas these lands give you options which limit your future mana production. They do not net you extra mana, only one thins your deck but is limited to a "basic" land (and only one basic type), the other is a pseudo lotus petal but can be a basic if it needs to be.
Personally, I think both designs are elegant and not overpowered yet would see play in many decks. They are suseptable Wasteland and Stifle effects. They would be fun to play and obviously Wizards is not interested in printing them.
Sleeping Volcano
Land
t: Add 1 to your mana pool.
t : Add R or U to your mana pool. Play this ability only during your turn.
It seems quite interesting to me even if it pushes aggro a little bit more than control. Still, the "during your turn" include the End of Turn and the Upkeep so it's not THAT bad for control. They just have to play differently and use some basic lands along with it.
Otherwise, the only other viable option except painlands seems to be the CIPT option, but really, I don't like this one as it hurts aggro quite more than it hurts control. And as far as I'm concerned, the actual metagame is filled with CIPT lands... more of them wouldn't be quite exciting.
Maybe they'll reprint Horizon Canopy and make it a template for all the other lands? It would be good for control AND aggro while making burn and life gain more valuable (two strategies not really used theses days).
After all, it was future shifted...
They specifically said that taking damage (losing life) was not an option for these lands because it scares away new players from wanting to use them.
Does anyone know if they have totally ruled out using the future style lands? Some of them would be interesting like River of Tears.
I'm glad to ear that... I'm sick of painlands and CIPT lands... I hope for something different.
The River of Tears is quite similar to the "only during your turn" option except it is harder to balance for all the colors. For exemple, for UB, you choose to give U during the opponent's turn. Are you gonna do the same for UW or are you gonna give W on the opponent turn?
That would mean UB would be immediatly forced to take the counterspells route (U = broken ambition during opponent's turn) while UW take the removal route (W = path to exile during opponent's turn).
Still.... both of them share blue... so it sounds weird that one of them don't have access to blue mana on the turn of the opponent. And if you give blue mana to both lands on the turn of the opponent, you still have the same problem with UW, WG, GR and RB.
Additionnally, for a core set, it need quite some skills to play around the "when does I play my land".
Land
~ comes into play with 3 resource counters on it.
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
T, remove a resource counter from ~: Add G or W to your mana pool. If there are no resource counters on ~, sacrifice it.
That's a nice idea too...
Vanishing 5
(t: Add R or G to your mana pool.)
Expanding Marshlands
Land
Sacrifice Expanding Marshland as it comes into play unless you control a swamp or forest.
t: Add G or B to your mana pool.
I kinda like this one. However, you may want to add "Comes into play with a charge counter" to allow for first turn dual. Apparently, first-turn duality is one of the expectations of the new lands. The model you propose would allow for alternating turn duality, or buildup duality via counters for later turns, which I think is an interesting flexibility. Though, I don't know how this compares with the expected power level.
T: Add C or D, may not be used to pay colorless mana costs.
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That would force you to use basics (or other lands) to pay for your colorless costs. Something I thought they want to encourage.
As far as not being that good they do fix your colored mana. Isn't that primarily what you're looking to use these for anyway?
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Pay-Scrubland
Land - Plains Swamp
As Pay-Scrub comes into play, you may pay :1mana:. If you don't, Pay-Scrub comes into play tapped.
:symtap:: Add or to your mana pool.
It's neither strictly better or worse than the Shocklands, and it doesn't obsolete any other lands really.
You can't use it turn one.
Oh, was it confirmed that you could?
Exactly.
Lets compare it to a regular tapland.
When is a tapland fine? When you don't have any plays using the land for the turn if it came into play untapped.
When you are digging for your 5th land or 4th land, and need to hit that 4 or 5 drop, and reveal the proposed land or a tapland...there is no difference.
The situations where its drawback is better than a tapland are few and far between.
It is strictly worse than the shocklands, I don't see how you could say that it isn't. You can use them turn one, and they can increase your total available mana by one the turn they drop if you want.
Giving a nonbasic land types does not ratchet up its power considerably.
See Murmuring Bosk. It had plenty of synergy with treefolk stuff, but it was not as amazing as everyone originally thought.
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The pay or CITPT land is Significantly Worse then a Shockland, but it is not Strictly Worse (if your at two life, need the second white for a Wrath and have enough total lands its a better draw).
Seems the best lands are the collection of Opponent may Scry/Fateseal style lands (or CITPT). I am still really liking the Legendary lands with landcycling, but they should probably wait for a set that supports landcycling rather then spell it out on the land itself.
Does make me wish there were an additional super type that worked like Legendary does, but only for one player (ie you can only control one of this card, but each player can have thier own) Fabled or Storied, Rare would be nice, but get confusing.
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B)
T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
"-These lands are replacing the Painlands. These lands allow the option of one of two colors on turn one. The new lands have to be able to do this to be a success."
So forget restrictions that would not let you have two mana options on turn one.
I'm guessing that they will have a drawback that won't be expensive. If the game keeps going on the same trail as the last few expansions, the Dual Lands will have to be playable in a manner that won't cost you too much in order to use them.
Thanks to ChibiSwan for the Signature.
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- Cards: in hand, in library or in graveyard.
- Permanents in play, yours and your opponent's.
- Life: yours and opponent's.
- Turns.
- Phases.
- Mana currently available.
- Reusability (mostly involving counters or staying tapped.)
- Power / thoughness of creatures.
- Haste / trample / etc of creatures (land could give your opp creatures haste for a turn, for example).
- Colors of spells and permanents.
- Protection.
- Returning spells from the graveyard.
- Bouncing permanents.
- Other permanents coming into play tapped.
- Others? Surely there is more.
So, here are a few suggestion:
Tap-land
When ~ comes into play, all non-land permanents come into play tapped until EOT.
T: add X or Y to your mana pool.
Phase-land
~ Can only be played during your 1st main phase.
When ~ comes into play, skip your second main phase.
T: add X or Y to your mana pool.
Pro-land
When ~ comes into play, all permanents not controlled by you gain protection from a color of its controller's choice.
T: add X or Y to your mana pool.
etc...
Ping Land
Land
T: Add X or Y to your mana pool. If you control one or more creatures, Ping Land deals 1 damage to target creature you control.
Alternatively, your opponent could choose the creature to ping, or it could automatically choose your creature with the lowest toughness.
Flag-Scrubland
Legendary Land - Plains Swamp
When Flag-Scrubland is put into a graveyard from play, you may search your library for a basic Plains or basic Swamp and put it into play tapped.
:symtap:: Add or to your mana pool.
But it's basically strictly better than the original Flags, which I'm not sure WotC would be too keen about. Remember, the original Flags saw tournament play.
Insert Land Name
Nonbasic Land
Tap: Add 1 to your manapool.
Swampcycling 1
Mountaincycling 1
Edit-This way, it wouldnt cost life, but its not better than the original fetches either.
Edit2-Just realized...cycling is a block mechanic =\. Probably wouldnt get done.
It also wouldn't warrant the Rare power level.