Hydra seems too "red" to me. Heads that deal damage, and grow back, describe a creature that's at least part red and part something-else. Protean Hydra is interesting, especially as a green creature, but I don't see Hydra (or even Phytohydra) becoming the poster child for Green fat.
What's the first big green fatty most of us played with? That's right, Craw Wurm has been a staple in core sets and budget beginner decks since 1993. A wurm can be other colors, but it's Green's special type of flightless dragon, something of truly mythic dimensions and unfathomable age. Blue has Leviathan, white has Angels, Black has DjinnVampire Demons, Red has Dragons, and Green has the Midgard Serpent or the Lindwurm or any number of other incredibly ancient, titanic serpents of the earth.
I can't imagine them being any other color, not predominantly.
ETA - To others: I certainly do not think that behemoth needs to be tied in any way, shape, or form to leviathan. Just because they were two anciently-described creatures, potentially mythological, potentially real (hippo and crocodile, respectively, most likely), doesn't mean they need to be tied together. The word behemoth in modern times is far beyond the myth (as is leviathan, for that matter). Again, this would be like requiring angels to have no genitalia, and no eyes, the occasional sword coming out of their mouth, etc. I wish everyone would stop going back to the ancient myths when it pleases them to support their argument, while ignoring it when it is palatable to the individual personally. Angels, demons, dragons, sphinxes. All have specific ancient meaning. In Magic the Gathering, however, only the most cursory nod to said ancient meaning is in place, with many varied reinterpretations appearing set after set after set. Call it behemoth, call it primordial, call it titan, whatever. Green's ultimate embodiment screams massive creatures on a scale the other colors can only touch on so very rarely.
I think the dissonance in your argument is that, commonly, people do associate behemoths and leviathans together. And while the modern depiction of angels may digress from the ancient descriptions, it's nevertheless what people expect to see.
The way angels are depicted in magic is legitimatized by the evolution of them as a symbol. Therefore people can relate to it. Referencing behemoths for the express purpose of invoking their ancient depiction while simultaneously disassociating them with leviathans is not going to be successful. You can't force people to see things in a different way, it takes time and paradigm shifts for it to happen.
I think the flying issue is a major problem, here. And honestly, I liked the Planar Chaos approach to it, which was to allow all colors to do fliers to some extent. This would allow green access to more flying insects, nature-oriented faeries, and pave the way for an iconic that can compete with angels, demons, dragons, and the like.
Sure, reach exists as an option, but it just feels so... compensatory.
I think you have a point about this and how it relates to the viability of a green icon, but it probably can't be helped.
I think it's similar to the way the four classical elements are regarded. Earth tends to be the ugly stepchild of the bunch. It's plain, inert and relatively boring compared to fire, air and water. But we still have to have the earth element regardless of how mindblowingly dull it might be.
You have to have the color that doesn't get fliers, and it happens to be green. Yes reach is a pretty weak trade-off and leaves much to be desired, but what green needs is its own way of being flashy. If done successfully we might even escape the trope that flying is the coolest thing.
After all, mechanically green shouldn't get fliers or the ability becomes meaningless. Let green contrast in some new way (something a bit more substantive and impressive than reach).
I think the dissonance in your argument is that, commonly, people do associate behemoths and leviathans together. And while the modern depiction of angels may digress from the ancient descriptions, it's nevertheless what people expect to see.
The way angels are depicted in magic is legitimatized by the evolution of them as a symbol. Therefore people can relate to it. Referencing behemoths for the express purpose of invoking their ancient depiction while simultaneously disassociating them with leviathans is not going to be successful. You can't force people to see things in a different way, it takes time and paradigm shifts for it to happen.
Except that the disassociation is what I've seen to be the norm, with few exception. Anecdotal? Sure. However, even in this very thread, it is only a small handful of posters that are associating the two, and only to say that one cannot exist without the other. *shrug* On the other hand, in pop culture, et al, you don't commonly see the concept of behemoth and leviathan together.
In other words, the paradigm shift with regards to the majority has (long since) occurred. I am quite comfortable stating that the majority who hear the word "behemoth" will think some massive being, and will not immediately associate the word, not even in passing, with "leviathan". Just as most who hear the word "leviathan" will conjure something whale-like, massive, ocean-going creature in their mind's eye, yet will not immediately associate it with "behemoth".
So no, I disagree with the assertion that the common association is behemoth + leviathan together. That is only amongst those who have studied mythology in detail, more specifically biblical and Hebrew mythologies. Any more than most will imagine eyeless, genital-less angels with swords coming from various orifices. Any more than most will associate sphinx with Greek demon of bad luck and destructive force.
Ok I thought a little bit. We all think that green represents nature and animals. And IMO chimeras are not a good choice, because they got this "artificial" flavor. Something like Frankenstein's Monster. But I like the idea to have a creature that represents all creatures. So I got the idea of a
Swarm or Herd
or something like that. Something stampeding, able to toss up parts of itself to the sky, unstoppable and growing every round.
BTW do you guys think R&D is reading this?
I agree. Reading through the entire thread, early on I had the same idea. Specifically a "Horde".
An iconic "creature" sounds too singular to be Green. Green always grows massive amounts of creatures. Plus, it would be a good way for Green to combat the other icons. Red sends it's Dragons at you. Black's Demons come to kill you. White's Angels come to smite you... and Green? Green sends the whole damn forest at your face.
Maybe something like...
3GGGGG
Wrath of the Forest
Creature - Horde
Trample, Haste, Reach, Vigilance, Shroud
10/10
...probably overpowered, but just as an example.
And if you wanted it to represent a horde of a specific creature type, you could do that too... "beast horde", "treefolk horde", "wurm horde", etc.
I agree. Reading through the entire thread, early on I had the same idea. Specifically a "Horde".
An iconic "creature" sounds too singular to be Green. Green always grows massive amounts of creatures. Plus, it would be a good way for Green to combat the other icons. Red sends it's Dragons at you. Black's Demons come to kill you. White's Angels come to smite you... and Green? Green sends the whole damn forest at your face.
Maybe something like...
3GGGGG
Wrath of the Forest
Creature - Horde
Trample, Haste, Reach, Vigilance, Shroud
10/10
...probably overpowered, but just as an example.
And if you wanted it to represent a horde of a specific creature type, you could do that too... "beast horde", "treefolk horde", "wurm horde", etc.
not to mention haste is a red trait, shroud is a blue trait (though sometimes on green cards) and vigilance is usually a white trait...that creature works wonders...i would say for what you want....
rampaging baloths fits the bill....big trampler puts a herd into play with it...
I feel like it should be "beast"...but it just seems to generic.
Demon - Dragon - Angel - Sphinx - ???
I can imagine those 4 duking it out in some sort of massive battle, but I can't really picture what green's representation would be.
Thinking of actual cards - Ob Nixilis - Shivan Dragon - Baneslayer - Sphinx of Jwar Isle - ...Kalonian Behemoth?
I don't think a treefolk would fit right, Protean Hydra doesn't feel green enough, Wurms are just plain stupid IMO, and the other options don't really make much sense at all.
I vote for Beast.
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Although always playing a deck I think is fun, I'm also always trying to win the tournament.
Currently playing: M13 Draft GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD) GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
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Except that the disassociation is what I've seen to be the norm, with few exception. Anecdotal? Sure. However, even in this very thread, it is only a small handful of posters that are associating the two, and only to say that one cannot exist without the other. *shrug* On the other hand, in pop culture, et al, you don't commonly see the concept of behemoth and leviathan together.
In other words, the paradigm shift with regards to the majority has (long since) occurred. I am quite comfortable stating that the majority who hear the word "behemoth" will think some massive being, and will not immediately associate the word, not even in passing, with "leviathan". Just as most who hear the word "leviathan" will conjure something whale-like, massive, ocean-going creature in their mind's eye, yet will not immediately associate it with "behemoth".
So no, I disagree with the assertion that the common association is behemoth + leviathan together. That is only amongst those who have studied mythology in detail, more specifically biblical and Hebrew mythologies. Any more than most will imagine eyeless, genital-less angels with swords coming from various orifices. Any more than most will associate sphinx with Greek demon of bad luck and destructive force.
I can only speak from my own experience in that they're strongly associated with one another.
I would agree that the term 'behemoth' has broadened but, I would guess, most people would be aware of its origin and relationship with leviathans. But I don't think based on what you or I have said so far that either of us can substantiate the actual associations people make with the terms.
Edit: Also, even if you were correct that the majority of people were ignorant about the connection between behemoth and leviathan, it still doesn't stop behemoths from generally not fitting the picture because of how their execution (related or not) is still similar to leviathans... in other words, behemoths are still big and dumb and that not wholly adequate to produce iconic creatures (even dumb dragons are sentient)
not to mention haste is a red trait, shroud is a blue trait (though sometimes on green cards) and vigilance is usually a white trait...that creature works wonders...i would say for what you want....
rampaging baloths fits the bill....big trampler puts a herd into play with it...
I disklike when people say things like this.
Haste is tertiary in green, showing up on splashy cards when appropriate. Shroud [CARD=MIST LEOPARD]is most [CARD=KALONIAN BEHEMOTH]certainly in [CARD=ALGAE GHARIAL]green. Though it is not as frequent lately green and blue share it pretty much equally.
Vigilance is rare in green, ill give you that, but showing up in common [CARD=JORAGA BARD]rarity definately means that its within green's pie even if just a little bit.
While other colors get to blatantly steal abilities that are nowhere near what it should have and then just apologize afterward. I can only think of one example atm, but still. other colors get treats and get out of line every once in a while and all they get is a slap on the wrist, but for some reason Everyone gets all excited and whines when green starts to get out of line, but the funny thing is, no one knows exactly where that line is or even what it looks like
Recent discussions here and elsewhere have made it clear that there seems to be a group of players who consider blue and control synonymous, as if they somehow started playing a game with four identical and "bad" colors that do nothing interesting because they just "turn men sideways" and then true, glorious blue, the only thinking person's color.
EDH decks
Marath, Will of the Wild
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Marchesa, the Black Rose
About the remodeling of Treefolk, they should just be massive monsters that (a) contain generations of wisdom, (b) are indefatigable forces of Nature, and (c) have some theme of withstanding a beating in such a way that makes the enemy the worse for having even tried to fight through them.
\
Its not tough to make treefolk cool (or at least not dorky). Take Force of Savagery and smack "Treefolk" on the typeline.
It doesnt have to be old forces. Any time a new "force" would be printed, just make it a treefolk instead. So much of it is art.
And really treefolk seem ready made to have reach and vigilance as abilities. It lets you attack and block. That way, reach isnt a consolation prize anymore.
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ELEMENTALS: Spectral Force, Regal Force, Verdant Force, Silvos, Rogue Elemental etc. - have that have a big, unstoppable by other creatures, force of nature feel.
Except that some of the best elementals are for "elements" that are decidedly not Green: Wonder, Anger. And the idea that Elementals as a creature type draw on all 5 of the classical Elements for their physical form, not only allows those Elements expression in the card game, but also provides a home for midrange to large creatures and effects spanning all 5 colours.
Beasts, Elephants, Apes: These are a much stronger candidate for Green's poster child, and it's hard to decide. A Beast token is usually just 3/3 or 4/4, but a Beast creature can be any size you can imagine, from a little guy like Cerodon yearling to a biggie like Enormous Baloth or Krosan Cloudscraper.
Elephants are usually 3/3 but can be a lot bigger. If drawn to scale, a Mastodon would be equivalent to some of the 6/6 or 7/7 fatties we've seen on card arts - as tall at the shoulder as two adult men stacked head to toe. Mosstodon at 5/3 seems underpowered for what a real live Mastodon could do to a small pack of predators.
Apes are pretty Green - they live in forests or Savannahs and grow to any size you can imagine, from little bug-eyed guys carrying off your Astrolabes to midsized communal treetop-dwellers, to gargantuan gorilla.
Overall it would be hard to pick one of the above. I've already made my case for Wurm, and it seemed good at the time, but in retrospect it suffers from the same problem as Elemental and to a lesser extent Dragon - you can have white spirit Dragons and blue water Dragons, fire Elementals and water Elementals, and celestial Wurms and subterranean Wurms as well as harvest Wurms. (For the record, I think Wurms should be depicted as the serpent-like or dragon-like creatures in Chinese and Norse mythology, not as the lamprey-like or Dune Sand Worm-like creatures from Ravnica, etc.
Its not tough to make treefolk cool (or at least not dorky). Take Force of Savagery and smack "Treefolk" on the typeline.
It doesnt have to be old forces. Any time a new "force" would be printed, just make it a treefolk instead. So much of it is art.
And really treefolk seem ready made to have reach and vigilance as abilities. It lets you attack and block. That way, reach isnt a consolation prize anymore.
Well put. So green's iconic creature would not be Elemental (since those are in other colors) nor Treefolk (because of Lorwyn) but both: Treefolk Elemental
Like you said it's easy: errata old cards to be Treefolk Elemental and print new ones with both types to become green's icon.
FGreen, as by MaRo's own admission has had issues developing a green Iconic creature. So what is or should be Green's Iconic Creature?
Green's Iconic is the Elemental. The problem of course is that they are not truely inteligent and Iconic races should be... but green isn't really about inteligent and the Elemental fits Green better...
The beast is the only other real option for an Iconic creature, and it has even more problems with not being inteligent then the Elemental does (Wurm has the same problem beast does in that regard). Beasts (and Wurms) also have the problem of not being as interesting from a design point of view... Thorn Elemental and Verdant Force are both interesting cards... Beasts and Wurms can't do that kind of card (atleast not as well).
Should Elementals be Magic's Green Iconic? I can't think of much else other then possibly Avatar (re-brand Force of Nature and the rest of the Forces (and Child of Gaea) as Avatars and I don't think anyone would even blink an eye... Force of Nature *IS* an Avatar (of nature)), but that would be similar to Sphinx in that it is a creature time that practically didn't exist before being leveraged as an Iconic for a color...
Elemental (existing) or Avatar (new direction) for Green's Iconic Race!
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(U/B) is :symbu: or :symub: and the same is true for the other 9 hybrid symbols with their two colors in for the last 2 leters of the code. ((2/B) and co are :sym2b:)
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B) T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
Well put. So green's iconic creature would not be Elemental (since those are in other colors) nor Treefolk (because of Lorwyn) but both: Treefolk Elemental
Like you said it's easy: errata old cards to be Treefolk Elemental and print new ones with both types to become green's icon.
Fine plan, but I'd prefer "Elemental Treefolk". Not sure if others would agree.
It seems that "Elemental" generally comes first when the creature has an underlying type as well. Same as with e.g. Nightmare. "Treefolk Elemental" also sounds a bit funny, as if it goes in the set with "Fire Elemental".
Unless we really do want "Treefolk" as a quasi-element.
[Afterthought] Thinking about it, "Elemental Beast" sounds equally cool.
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"My will is my own. I won't bow to fate." - Volrath, Null Profusion
Plot of Dragon's Maze:
Niv-Mizzet plays Realmwright, chooses "Gate". Then a dramatic retelling of the ensuing argument.
I like the suggestion of Manticores for green. They should also add a neew keyword, cause flying feels out of place for green and devalues it from other colors.
Sylvan Manticore V1
4GGG
Creature - Manticore
Mega trample (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a creature, it deals that much damage to that creatures controller)
1GG: Regenerate this
5/5
Sylvan Manticore V2
4GG
Creature - Manticore
Reach, tail hit (Whenever a creature deals damage to this, Sylvan Manticore deals damage equal to its toughness to that creature.)
1GG: Regenerate this.
5/3
Regeneration also fits on it, which is in greens pie. Those Manticores would be real combat masters.
ZOMG!! meGA TRAMPLE?! teh nutz
reminds me of one of my favouritest cards ragged veins, but i think it makes sense in green as well
Recent discussions here and elsewhere have made it clear that there seems to be a group of players who consider blue and control synonymous, as if they somehow started playing a game with four identical and "bad" colors that do nothing interesting because they just "turn men sideways" and then true, glorious blue, the only thinking person's color.
EDH decks
Marath, Will of the Wild
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Marchesa, the Black Rose
Well put. So green's iconic creature would not be Elemental (since those are in other colors) nor Treefolk (because of Lorwyn) but both: Treefolk Elemental
Like you said it's easy: errata old cards to be Treefolk Elemental and print new ones with both types to become green's icon.
Sorry, but when I think Force of Nature, I see the swampthing art, not the junk art they printed in Fifth or Ninth, and Child of Gaea isn't a treefolk, it is a HILLSIDE with trees stuck on it...
Also Force of Savagery and Verdant Force are not even close to Treefolk, and are what Force of Nature and Child of Gaea were concepted as...
Uh, Verdant Force looks like a TROLL, and looks NOTHING like a treefolk, Force of Nature looks like the Swamp Thing (and wasn't printed in 5th or 9th editions :facepalm::(:facepalm:), Spectral Force could be a Treefolk, though I don't think that was the objective, Force of Savagery does not look like a treefolk (a collection of plants sure, but not a treefolk, the face is in a head on top of the body, not in the middle of the body just above the arms like in Treefolk).
Edit: And just becuase I looked, I thought I would save someone else the time if they were thinking the same things... The Biggest White creature is a Beast, the Biggest Blue creature is a Leviathan, the Biggest Black Creature is... Odd (or a Horror), the Biggest Red Creature is a Beast, so the Biggest Green Creature (which is a Beast) isn't really relavent to the Iconic Type. (and yes, both white and black have a legendary creature of the same size as their biggest creature, and the legend is of the color's iconic type)
(U/B) is :symbu: or :symub: and the same is true for the other 9 hybrid symbols with their two colors in for the last 2 leters of the code. ((2/B) and co are :sym2b:)
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B) T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
What about troll? Trolls fit pretty well in green w/ Regenerate and sometimes Troll shroud.
Trolls don't stand up to Dragons, Angels, Demons, or even Sphinxes... They are simply not Iconic enough...
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(U/B) is :symbu: or :symub: and the same is true for the other 9 hybrid symbols with their two colors in for the last 2 leters of the code. ((2/B) and co are :sym2b:)
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B) T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
Beast, Ape, Lizard, Treefolk and Wurm all appear on common and uncommon green fatties. They're the regular creature types of the color. I think that something more specific and epic would fit as the iconic creature, and Hydra certainly fits. Especially with the rares Feral Hydra and Protean Hydra in recent sets, it seems that it's moving in that direction.
I dont understand why people have this idea that an "Iconic" creature has to be Intellegent or Wise, they just need to stand out as Notable creatures in and of themselves. Angels arn't even really wise or intellegent, typically they are will-less and subserviant, but they are iconic because they are majestic and seem to embody everything that is white and im sure it helps that angels are typically rare due to needing alot of standard key worded abilities... this however is NOT always the case (see angelic page, angelic curator, angelic protector, serra advocate). They even tend to appear in other colors (crypt angel, fallen angel, angel of despair, boros archangel) But ultimately Angel stands as the Iconic white creature as it tends to be the epitomy of whites creature base.
Heck even dragons come in all various colors, but its said they are MOST prodominant in red and when people think of red rare creatures dragon tends to be at the top of thier list. And yes there are uncommon "Dragons" i.e. (dragon whelp, hellkite hatchling)
The problem with green is that when people think about greens "best" creatures they are all over the board. Being big is a standard of green almost, though alot of the times its also about being efficient. The trend one can easily see when reading this thread is that elementals like Force of Nature are what alot of people think of when they think of the word "iconic" with green creatures. Sure they have been printed in other colors and varying rarities... and WILL always been printed in other colors (see Air Elemental and Fire Elemental) But why does that inheirantly disqualify "Force of Nature" from being THE green creature?
Alot of people tend to think that being an "Iconic" creature has to follow STRICT unbiased, unflexible rules... to me thats just not the case. White will get other rare and mythic creatures, and other colors will continue to get dragons and demons of varying sizes and rarities, but every few expansions we will get our new "Force of Nature" and it wont be as often as red gets dragons, or blue gets its new sphinxes but people will see it and notice. I dont care if elementals are also printed in red and blue (notably more rare in white and black) it still does not and will not change the fact that alot of greens most powerful creatures of note will be elementals... the nature color in and of itself should get the best elementals anyway.
I dont understand why people have this idea that an "Iconic" creature has to be Intellegent or Wise
When I used the word I ment under the "Speak and build a fire" rule, not super smart or anything of the sort...
And Angels ARE Intellegent, not sure where you get the idea that they have no will or anything of the sort.
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(U/B) is :symbu: or :symub: and the same is true for the other 9 hybrid symbols with their two colors in for the last 2 leters of the code. ((2/B) and co are :sym2b:)
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B) T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
The first part of your quote was just to show people that the creature doesn't HAVE to be super smart or cunning to make the reqs... Trolls for example might not be very smart, BUT that shouldn't disqualify them from being an iconic creature... if one were inclined too it could argue that trolls represent alot of greens finest qualities, savage, unstoppable, resillient and regenerative and that it wouldn't be bad to have a nice troll printed once or twice a set (this isn't my personal argument however)
As for angels, they are instruments, they do what they are commanded to do in the most direct way. Typically messengers inspiring courage and valor in those that believe in them and even the ones made of war rarely rely on cunning and guile to win a fight... just look at the cards most are brunt objects in the most magnificent ways. Hell look at Akroma and Baneslayer... they are two of the best angels printed and quite frankly they just do exactly what it is they are needed too...
This is not to say that they are mouth breathing r-tards flying around slashing at things randomly. They are summoned for a task and quite simply fullfill it to the best of its ability without much thought process. Where as demons are always scheming, even when summoned by someone more powerful they are constantly trying to get more for themselves.
What's the first big green fatty most of us played with? That's right, Craw Wurm has been a staple in core sets and budget beginner decks since 1993. A wurm can be other colors, but it's Green's special type of flightless dragon, something of truly mythic dimensions and unfathomable age. Blue has Leviathan, white has Angels, Black has
DjinnVampireDemons, Red has Dragons, and Green has the Midgard Serpent or the Lindwurm or any number of other incredibly ancient, titanic serpents of the earth.I can't imagine them being any other color, not predominantly.
I think the dissonance in your argument is that, commonly, people do associate behemoths and leviathans together. And while the modern depiction of angels may digress from the ancient descriptions, it's nevertheless what people expect to see.
The way angels are depicted in magic is legitimatized by the evolution of them as a symbol. Therefore people can relate to it. Referencing behemoths for the express purpose of invoking their ancient depiction while simultaneously disassociating them with leviathans is not going to be successful. You can't force people to see things in a different way, it takes time and paradigm shifts for it to happen.
I think you have a point about this and how it relates to the viability of a green icon, but it probably can't be helped.
I think it's similar to the way the four classical elements are regarded. Earth tends to be the ugly stepchild of the bunch. It's plain, inert and relatively boring compared to fire, air and water. But we still have to have the earth element regardless of how mindblowingly dull it might be.
You have to have the color that doesn't get fliers, and it happens to be green. Yes reach is a pretty weak trade-off and leaves much to be desired, but what green needs is its own way of being flashy. If done successfully we might even escape the trope that flying is the coolest thing.
After all, mechanically green shouldn't get fliers or the ability becomes meaningless. Let green contrast in some new way (something a bit more substantive and impressive than reach).
Except that the disassociation is what I've seen to be the norm, with few exception. Anecdotal? Sure. However, even in this very thread, it is only a small handful of posters that are associating the two, and only to say that one cannot exist without the other. *shrug* On the other hand, in pop culture, et al, you don't commonly see the concept of behemoth and leviathan together.
In other words, the paradigm shift with regards to the majority has (long since) occurred. I am quite comfortable stating that the majority who hear the word "behemoth" will think some massive being, and will not immediately associate the word, not even in passing, with "leviathan". Just as most who hear the word "leviathan" will conjure something whale-like, massive, ocean-going creature in their mind's eye, yet will not immediately associate it with "behemoth".
So no, I disagree with the assertion that the common association is behemoth + leviathan together. That is only amongst those who have studied mythology in detail, more specifically biblical and Hebrew mythologies. Any more than most will imagine eyeless, genital-less angels with swords coming from various orifices. Any more than most will associate sphinx with Greek demon of bad luck and destructive force.
demon's horn
angel's feather
dragon's claw
kraken's eye
wurm's tooth
there mystery solved...as much as i would hate for it to be wurm
Gfast animals slow shildrenG
51-18-4 (retired as of 6-4-11)
I agree. Reading through the entire thread, early on I had the same idea. Specifically a "Horde".
An iconic "creature" sounds too singular to be Green. Green always grows massive amounts of creatures. Plus, it would be a good way for Green to combat the other icons. Red sends it's Dragons at you. Black's Demons come to kill you. White's Angels come to smite you... and Green? Green sends the whole damn forest at your face.
Maybe something like...
3GGGGG
Wrath of the Forest
Creature - Horde
Trample, Haste, Reach, Vigilance, Shroud
10/10
...probably overpowered, but just as an example.
And if you wanted it to represent a horde of a specific creature type, you could do that too... "beast horde", "treefolk horde", "wurm horde", etc.
not to mention haste is a red trait, shroud is a blue trait (though sometimes on green cards) and vigilance is usually a white trait...that creature works wonders...i would say for what you want....
rampaging baloths fits the bill....big trampler puts a herd into play with it...
Gfast animals slow shildrenG
51-18-4 (retired as of 6-4-11)
Reach isn't a great iconic creature ability, though, since it's only on defense.
That... is a good point.
Demon - Dragon - Angel - Sphinx - ???
I can imagine those 4 duking it out in some sort of massive battle, but I can't really picture what green's representation would be.
Thinking of actual cards - Ob Nixilis - Shivan Dragon - Baneslayer - Sphinx of Jwar Isle - ...Kalonian Behemoth?
I don't think a treefolk would fit right, Protean Hydra doesn't feel green enough, Wurms are just plain stupid IMO, and the other options don't really make much sense at all.
I vote for Beast.
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I can only speak from my own experience in that they're strongly associated with one another.
I would agree that the term 'behemoth' has broadened but, I would guess, most people would be aware of its origin and relationship with leviathans. But I don't think based on what you or I have said so far that either of us can substantiate the actual associations people make with the terms.
Edit: Also, even if you were correct that the majority of people were ignorant about the connection between behemoth and leviathan, it still doesn't stop behemoths from generally not fitting the picture because of how their execution (related or not) is still similar to leviathans... in other words, behemoths are still big and dumb and that not wholly adequate to produce iconic creatures (even dumb dragons are sentient)
I disklike when people say things like this.
Haste is tertiary in green, showing up on splashy cards when appropriate.
Shroud [CARD=MIST LEOPARD]is most [CARD=KALONIAN BEHEMOTH]certainly in [CARD=ALGAE GHARIAL]green. Though it is not as frequent lately green and blue share it pretty much equally.
Vigilance is rare in green, ill give you that, but showing up in common [CARD=JORAGA BARD]rarity definately means that its within green's pie even if just a little bit.
While other colors get to blatantly steal abilities that are nowhere near what it should have and then just apologize afterward. I can only think of one example atm, but still. other colors get treats and get out of line every once in a while and all they get is a slap on the wrist, but for some reason Everyone gets all excited and whines when green starts to get out of line, but the funny thing is, no one knows exactly where that line is or even what it looks like
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This.
I'v already said, the forces (Verdant Force, Force of Nature, Spectral Force, Force of Savagery, etc) all look like treefolk.
Its not tough to make treefolk cool (or at least not dorky). Take Force of Savagery and smack "Treefolk" on the typeline.
It doesnt have to be old forces. Any time a new "force" would be printed, just make it a treefolk instead. So much of it is art.
And really treefolk seem ready made to have reach and vigilance as abilities. It lets you attack and block. That way, reach isnt a consolation prize anymore.
ELEMENTALS: Spectral Force, Regal Force, Verdant Force, Silvos, Rogue Elemental etc. - have that have a big, unstoppable by other creatures, force of nature feel.
or
BEASTS: Ravenous Baloth, Beast Attack, Krosan BEast, Leery Frogbeast, etc. - creatures that have some green related utility, get bigger over time with resources, or in endless supply in nature.
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Except that some of the best elementals are for "elements" that are decidedly not Green: Wonder, Anger. And the idea that Elementals as a creature type draw on all 5 of the classical Elements for their physical form, not only allows those Elements expression in the card game, but also provides a home for midrange to large creatures and effects spanning all 5 colours.
Beasts, Elephants, Apes: These are a much stronger candidate for Green's poster child, and it's hard to decide. A Beast token is usually just 3/3 or 4/4, but a Beast creature can be any size you can imagine, from a little guy like Cerodon yearling to a biggie like Enormous Baloth or Krosan Cloudscraper.
Elephants are usually 3/3 but can be a lot bigger. If drawn to scale, a Mastodon would be equivalent to some of the 6/6 or 7/7 fatties we've seen on card arts - as tall at the shoulder as two adult men stacked head to toe. Mosstodon at 5/3 seems underpowered for what a real live Mastodon could do to a small pack of predators.
Apes are pretty Green - they live in forests or Savannahs and grow to any size you can imagine, from little bug-eyed guys carrying off your Astrolabes to midsized communal treetop-dwellers, to gargantuan gorilla.
Overall it would be hard to pick one of the above. I've already made my case for Wurm, and it seemed good at the time, but in retrospect it suffers from the same problem as Elemental and to a lesser extent Dragon - you can have white spirit Dragons and blue water Dragons, fire Elementals and water Elementals, and celestial Wurms and subterranean Wurms as well as harvest Wurms. (For the record, I think Wurms should be depicted as the serpent-like or dragon-like creatures in Chinese and Norse mythology, not as the lamprey-like or Dune Sand Worm-like creatures from Ravnica, etc.
Well put. So green's iconic creature would not be Elemental (since those are in other colors) nor Treefolk (because of Lorwyn) but both: Treefolk Elemental
Like you said it's easy: errata old cards to be Treefolk Elemental and print new ones with both types to become green's icon.
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Green's Iconic is the Elemental. The problem of course is that they are not truely inteligent and Iconic races should be... but green isn't really about inteligent and the Elemental fits Green better...
Aboroth, Child of Gaea, Cloudthresher, Force of Nature, Force of Savagery, Living Hive, Maro, Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer, Multani, Maro-Sorcerer, Primalcrux, Primeval Force, Regal Force, Silvos, Rogue Elemental, Spectral Force, Thorn Elemental, Thornling, and Verdant Force. These are Green's Iconic creatures. Particularly the Forces (Force of Nature, Spectral Force, etc) and the Child of Gaea, although the rest contribute.
The beast is the only other real option for an Iconic creature, and it has even more problems with not being inteligent then the Elemental does (Wurm has the same problem beast does in that regard). Beasts (and Wurms) also have the problem of not being as interesting from a design point of view... Thorn Elemental and Verdant Force are both interesting cards... Beasts and Wurms can't do that kind of card (atleast not as well).
Should Elementals be Magic's Green Iconic? I can't think of much else other then possibly Avatar (re-brand Force of Nature and the rest of the Forces (and Child of Gaea) as Avatars and I don't think anyone would even blink an eye... Force of Nature *IS* an Avatar (of nature)), but that would be similar to Sphinx in that it is a creature time that practically didn't exist before being leveraged as an Iconic for a color...
Elemental (existing) or Avatar (new direction) for Green's Iconic Race!
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Fine plan, but I'd prefer "Elemental Treefolk". Not sure if others would agree.
It seems that "Elemental" generally comes first when the creature has an underlying type as well. Same as with e.g. Nightmare. "Treefolk Elemental" also sounds a bit funny, as if it goes in the set with "Fire Elemental".
Unless we really do want "Treefolk" as a quasi-element.
[Afterthought] Thinking about it, "Elemental Beast" sounds equally cool.
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reminds me of one of my favouritest cards ragged veins, but i think it makes sense in green as well
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Sorry, but when I think Force of Nature, I see the swampthing art, not the junk art they printed in Fifth or Ninth, and Child of Gaea isn't a treefolk, it is a HILLSIDE with trees stuck on it...
Also Force of Savagery and Verdant Force are not even close to Treefolk, and are what Force of Nature and Child of Gaea were concepted as...
Gotta say no on the Treefolk Elemental front...
Uh, Verdant Force looks like a TROLL, and looks NOTHING like a treefolk, Force of Nature looks like the Swamp Thing (and wasn't printed in 5th or 9th editions :facepalm::(:facepalm:), Spectral Force could be a Treefolk, though I don't think that was the objective, Force of Savagery does not look like a treefolk (a collection of plants sure, but not a treefolk, the face is in a head on top of the body, not in the middle of the body just above the arms like in Treefolk).
Edit: And just becuase I looked, I thought I would save someone else the time if they were thinking the same things... The Biggest White creature is a Beast, the Biggest Blue creature is a Leviathan, the Biggest Black Creature is... Odd (or a Horror), the Biggest Red Creature is a Beast, so the Biggest Green Creature (which is a Beast) isn't really relavent to the Iconic Type. (and yes, both white and black have a legendary creature of the same size as their biggest creature, and the legend is of the color's iconic type)
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Trolls don't stand up to Dragons, Angels, Demons, or even Sphinxes... They are simply not Iconic enough...
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Elemental Beast is taken, and not precisely by green.
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Heck even dragons come in all various colors, but its said they are MOST prodominant in red and when people think of red rare creatures dragon tends to be at the top of thier list. And yes there are uncommon "Dragons" i.e. (dragon whelp, hellkite hatchling)
The problem with green is that when people think about greens "best" creatures they are all over the board. Being big is a standard of green almost, though alot of the times its also about being efficient. The trend one can easily see when reading this thread is that elementals like Force of Nature are what alot of people think of when they think of the word "iconic" with green creatures. Sure they have been printed in other colors and varying rarities... and WILL always been printed in other colors (see Air Elemental and Fire Elemental) But why does that inheirantly disqualify "Force of Nature" from being THE green creature?
Alot of people tend to think that being an "Iconic" creature has to follow STRICT unbiased, unflexible rules... to me thats just not the case. White will get other rare and mythic creatures, and other colors will continue to get dragons and demons of varying sizes and rarities, but every few expansions we will get our new "Force of Nature" and it wont be as often as red gets dragons, or blue gets its new sphinxes but people will see it and notice. I dont care if elementals are also printed in red and blue (notably more rare in white and black) it still does not and will not change the fact that alot of greens most powerful creatures of note will be elementals... the nature color in and of itself should get the best elementals anyway.
And Angels ARE Intellegent, not sure where you get the idea that they have no will or anything of the sort.
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As for angels, they are instruments, they do what they are commanded to do in the most direct way. Typically messengers inspiring courage and valor in those that believe in them and even the ones made of war rarely rely on cunning and guile to win a fight... just look at the cards most are brunt objects in the most magnificent ways. Hell look at Akroma and Baneslayer... they are two of the best angels printed and quite frankly they just do exactly what it is they are needed too...
This is not to say that they are mouth breathing r-tards flying around slashing at things randomly. They are summoned for a task and quite simply fullfill it to the best of its ability without much thought process. Where as demons are always scheming, even when summoned by someone more powerful they are constantly trying to get more for themselves.