Unlike in legacy, this new format would have Shocklands. This already gives opponents a free lightning bolt (fetch + shock) at least once per game. Maybe even two free bolts. When coupled with the hyper-aggressively costed Goyf, this is a serious problem for format health. Goyf needs to be removed to avoid this.
Unlike in legacy, this new format would have Shocklands. This already gives opponents a free lightning bolt (fetch + shock) at least once per game. Maybe even two free bolts. When coupled with the hyper-aggressively costed Goyf, this is a serious problem for format health. Goyf needs to be removed to avoid this.
-ktkenshinx-
if combo and control can already survive in extended, they can in this new format.
Why doesn't it make the format better? Doesn't it increase card variety?
And Tarmo isn't just used in aggro. It's used in many control decks in legacy, which would transition over to this format. In place of Dual lands, it just uses shocks and filters.
Just because banning a card might get other cards played again isn't a good reason, though. It's no more rediculous than Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, Wooly Thoctar, or Leatherback Baloth. Banning it would have to be for the same kind of reason Kird Ape and Juggernaut got banned when they created extended. Its not out there killing people by turn 2-3, it's not generating insurmountable card advantage, it's not wasting tons of time other than the fact that it can block other Tarmogoyfs, it wasn't underprinted and placed on the reserved list, and it's not doing much of anything besides being a bit undercosted. It wouldn't even be worth splashing for if it didn't answer itself.
I'm not sure how much they'd want to 'fix' combo, though. This is supposed to be an eternal format. Unless something is so horribly broken that it completely warps the format, it's probably not getting banned. Afterall, the allure of eternal formats is that you can do something really insane. Hell, they even gave Necropotence a chance for a few months in online Classic. Most likely, the best starting point is to let everything go to start with and see what the format can work out for itself. Afterall, even Skullclamp is still legal in Classic.
Disciple probably isn't needed on the list. Affinity isn't even recognized as much of a threat in extended anymore. It could really get its last toy back.
Entomb is just fine in legacy and in overextended, it doesn't even have Animate Dead and Exhume. I'm not even sure if it can be competitive without them.
Mind's Desire hasn't even gotten a chance, since they just took a sledgehammer approach before it was ever legal, just like they did with Chrome Mox, which is tearing Vintage apart, right now.
Yes, but if that becomes a big card for reanimator, it'll get eaten alive by burn. Especially with the free Bolt from the mana base, it could be over on turn 2, easily. That's probably not enough to make reanimator uncompetitive, but it could balance it out quite a bit.
Just because banning a card might get other cards played again isn't a good reason, though. It's no more rediculous than Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, Wooly Thoctar, or Leatherback Baloth. Banning it would have to be for the same kind of reason Kird Ape and Juggernaut got banned when they created extended. Its not out there killing people by turn 2-3, it's not generating insurmountable card advantage, it's not wasting tons of time other than the fact that it can block other Tarmogoyfs, it wasn't underprinted and placed on the reserved list, and it's not doing much of anything besides being a bit undercosted. It wouldn't even be worth splashing for if it didn't answer itself.
Goyf is leaps and bounds better than all of those creatures that you list. The comparison is not even a good one; if Zoo could play 12 Goyf, it would. Sadly, it can't, so it settles for the alternatives. Thoctar and Baloth aren't even on the list of relevant aggro cards in Standard or Legacy.
I agree that Goyf does not waste time and does not generate card advantage. It is extremely aggressive, however. Far moreso than any other creature ever printed. I disagree with the statement that shocklands + goyf is a stable and safe format. Free lightning bolts are ugly against aggro, and Zoo is a serious contender in this new format; the only cards it loses from Legacy are Chain Lightning and Swords. Given that Chain Lightning is essentially replaced by fetchland-->shockland, they won't be missing it too much.
I agree with flaming infinity's statement that combo is meant to be strong in an eternal format. It's not as if decks don't have game 2/3 answers awaiting in the sideboard. Mindbreak Trap is nasty against storm, as are both Stifle and Trickbind. Ravenous Trap, Tormod's Crypt, and Relic of Progenitus are powerful answers to graveyard-based combo. Chalice of the Void, Ethersworn Canonist, and Trinisphere are further options that decks have at their disposal. Heck, maindecked Duress and Thoughtseize would be around enough to keep combo in check.
This does not exactly apply to Mind's Desire. Historically, the card has been laughably powerful and decks using Mind's Desire are able to power through most hate. The same goes, to a lesser extent, for Ad Nauseam. Do these both need banning? Historically, Desire does, but this might be up for debate.
As to Disciple of the Vault, the only reason I voted for Disciple's banning is because I hope for Aether Vial's unbanning. Unbanned Aether Vial would give aggro decks a nice shot against the Dark Depths/Thopter Foundry decks that will be covering the format (not to mention Faeries, UW Control, etc.). While this might seem contradictory to my earlier points about aggro being TOO powerful, there is a big difference between the enabling Vial and the win-condition Goyf. Besides, only certain decks can use Vial (those with heavy-creature aggro strategies like Goblins, Elves, Fish, and so on). Goyf can get played in EVERYTHING from Rock to Threshold, from Aggro Loam to Team America. Heck; Merfolk runs Goyf in some builds, and I'm just saying, Goyf ain't a fish.
Entomb is a trickier question. The loss of Reanimate and Exhume is big, even though Death replaces Reanimate quite nicely. But there's no decent replacement for Exhume. The points about Animate Dead and Necromancy are bad ones, because Reanimator just doesn't use these cards. So what's the big fuss about Entomb?
If I were the DCI, I would be worried about Entomb Hulk. Using some combination of Innocent Blood/Carrion Feeder/Chainer's Edict/etc. and an Entombed/Reanimated Protean Hulk, you have a nasty kill. Not to mention the fully new-format-legal Footsteps of the Goryo. Sound clunky? Test against it. Life-loss doesn't matter when you can win in a single turn.
That all said, Entomb is not the scariest card on the prospective Banned List. It's no Skullclamp or Sensei's Divining Top.
First of all, there are a few things that seem to be unclear to people in this and other overextended threads.
1. The reserve list is solid. Period. It seems to be legal reasons, or commands downward from Hasbro, or just suggestions from legal representatives. It is not something that they think might be good because market research says it's good to keep their word or something. The reserve list isn't going anywhere in the forseeable future.
2. Wizards does not really make money off of Legacy. Wizards only makes money through Extended because of boosters sales of newer sets, which is basically the same money they are making off of standard. (I'm not mentioning PTQ profits because PTQ formats are whatever they want). If Overextended became an actuality, they would not make a lot of direct profit from it. But they would have the ability to.
3. Overextended supporters, which probably does but may not include Wizards, do not want a "cheap legacy." They want an eternal (nonrotating) format that can be highly competitive and remain accessibly cheap. Legacy may take a hit from Overextended in terms of playerbase and prices, but that's the choice of legacy players and not Wizards' fault. Overextended would not only give Wizards a format to supplement Standard and Limited, but also a way to make a little profit off of the recent Legacy boom.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is the subset of players that the idea of Overextended targets. There's a demographic of magic players that tends to drift toward the top in competitive magic. They are relatively young, usually 18-28, mostly college students. Most name pros are members of this demographic. These players play the best deck almost regardless of cost, because they are competitive (what they like most about the game). They have money to spend on magic but their resources aren't limitless, and most don't have a great job. Borrowing cards is a norm, and the rising price of standard is definitely having an impact on this subset.
Now look at a group of Legacy players. The subset described above is represented much less in the Legacy community. These players may borrow a deck from a friend, or might come up with the money for Legacy. Some even primarily play Legacy. But standard is much hotter, and most of this subset concentrate on it as well as extended. Yes, it might be wise for this subset to invest in dual lands and play Legacy, which is highly skill intensive (something they love) and end up with a deck that won't rotate. But they don't because Standard is hotter and these players love ptq's.
Overextended is great for this subset, as it provides them with a solid eternal format that they can afford to play (barely, just like standard now). This format will not be much more expensive than extended if at all, and probably cheaper than current standard. It will also be supported with a PTQ season, something extremely important for this subset.
Yes, I would put myself in the described subset of player. People need to know we exist and play an important role in magic.
I want to follow up with a cool idea. Wizards could already be planning something like this, and if not it would be a great suggestion.
Intro packs for overextended. Does Wizards really make tons of money from extended because of ravnica box sales? Reprinting many staples of Overextended in this type of format would lower prices on many staples, but wouldn't tank them.
One type of intro pack could be a nonrandom set of cards, like FtV or a theme deck of old. There could be 5-10 themes packs that include 5-10 rares and 15-20 uncommons and commons. These cards would be nonstandard, to keep booster profits up. It could also include a premium basic land from each set in overextended (the type perhaps based on the theme of the pack it's in, or they could just be random), showing a bit of architecture from the format. It could even include an insert describing the format and showcasing a few basic decks in the format from top 8's with a few paragraphs from the deckbuilder describing it. The price would be based on how much wizards wants to risk decreasing secondary market prices.
Here are some random ideas for these intro packs, and yes i'm probably missing a lot of cards and some have dumb names, but this is just for the sake of example: An artifact OE intro pack containing engineered explosives, chrome mox, trinisphere, umezawa's jitte, and arcbound ravager along with thopter foundry, tormod's crypt, divining top and aether vial if they're not banned and other artifacts and cards such as trinket mage.
"Giant Creatures" pack could include Goyf (if he's not banned) to drive his price down as well as Knight of the Reliquary, Spiritmonger, Baneslayer Angel (unless they want her in demand to sell core set), and Sundering Titan, along with Nacatl, Ape, Wooly Thoctar, etc.
"Power Tribes" could contain Goblin Piledriver, Lord of Atlantis, Merfolk Sovereign, Elvish Archdruid, and Mutavault with most of rest of their tribes at common and uncommon.
"Super Sorceries" could be Burning Wish, Mind's Desire, Glimpse of Nature, Thoughtseize, and Wrath of God with Pyroclasm, Duress etc.
"Manipulation" could have Dark Confidant, Stifle, Jace the Mind Sculptor (if he's not in standard at this time), Life from the Loam, and Grim Lavamancer with Daze, Fact or Fiction, Path to exile etc.
"Dominant Enchantments" can have Leyline of the Void, Food Chain, Bridge from Below, Blood Moon, and Bitterblossom, with of course Counterbalance, Ghostly Prison, Armadillo Cloak, etc.
"Pure Gold" could have Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, and Glimpse the Unthinkable.
The above packs would easily be worth 60$+ but could easily sell for 30$ (15-20$ is probably possible but might be risky).
The problem with these theme packs are LANDS. Lands are very important, especially Ravnica Shocklands and Ons+Zen fetchlands. Almost all relevant lands are rare, even outside of these (river of tears, mutavault, painlands adn filterlands, etc), and also selling a pack of lands for 30$+ wouldn't excite some people. Anyone have a solution to this? or is this just a huge problem for my theme pack idea?
Here's another idea: booster packs with high-demand overextended cards. One rare with two uncommons and two commons. It could cost as much as a regular booster (3-5$). Rares could range from Scapeshift (fine for 4$) to Tarmogoyf. Of course these boosters may need to cost 10$ depending on the quality of cards in them. They could even do mythic rares at a higher rarity like Tarmogoyf and Baneslayer to keep prices from plummeting too much. Here's a random booster pack: Wooded Foothills, Narcomeoba, Goblin Warchief, Brainstorm, Cabal Ritual. Wouldn't these sell like crazy? Awesome moneymaker for Wizards, assuming it wouldn't have too much of a negative impact on secondary prices. Assuming this "reprint set" is about the same size as a normal set, it would have about 70 rares (assuming no mythics), 70 uncommons, and 70 commons (obviously constructed decks are rather rare-heavy). One Chrome Mox opened per 70 packs probably wouldn't drop the Starcitygames price of 20$ much, but it would put more Moxes into the hands of the players who need them: Overextended players. If booster boxes of these were available, people would go insane buying them.
This Overextended reprint "set" would have to be redone after a certain period of years, like Masters Edition or Core sets. Two years sounds about right. Newer cards that impact overextended, like Knight of the Reliquary or Jace 2.0 would be introduced. Also some cards would go out, like if perhaps no one is playing Goblins anymore, don't print the Goblin stuff for a cycle, then maybe bring them back in another edition. Standard and limited would sell boosters of the new sets for wizards, while overextended would have it's own "set" to bring in profit.
These boosters could possibly somewhat diminish the non-monetary value of older cards to older players. But it would be very appealing to newer tournament players who wouldn't be so daunted by the massive card pool of overextended because they can buy packs with a lot of the good cards that they need.
Anybody see any problems/suggestions with these two ideas for Wizards?
Goyf is leaps and bounds better than all of those creatures that you list. The comparison is not even a good one; if Zoo could play 12 Goyf, it would. Sadly, it can't, so it settles for the alternatives. Thoctar and Baloth aren't even on the list of relevant aggro cards in Standard or Legacy.
I agree that Goyf does not waste time and does not generate card advantage. It is extremely aggressive, however. Far moreso than any other creature ever printed. I disagree with the statement that shocklands + goyf is a stable and safe format. Free lightning bolts are ugly against aggro, and Zoo is a serious contender in this new format; the only cards it loses from Legacy are Chain Lightning and Swords. Given that Chain Lightning is essentially replaced by fetchland-->shockland, they won't be missing it too much.
I agree with flaming infinity's statement that combo is meant to be strong in an eternal format. It's not as if decks don't have game 2/3 answers awaiting in the sideboard. Mindbreak Trap is nasty against storm, as are both Stifle and Trickbind. Ravenous Trap, Tormod's Crypt, and Relic of Progenitus are powerful answers to graveyard-based combo. Chalice of the Void, Ethersworn Canonist, and Trinisphere are further options that decks have at their disposal. Heck, maindecked Duress and Thoughtseize would be around enough to keep combo in check.
This does not exactly apply to Mind's Desire. Historically, the card has been laughably powerful and decks using Mind's Desire are able to power through most hate. The same goes, to a lesser extent, for Ad Nauseam. Do these both need banning? Historically, Desire does, but this might be up for debate.
As to Disciple of the Vault, the only reason I voted for Disciple's banning is because I hope for Aether Vial's unbanning. Unbanned Aether Vial would give aggro decks a nice shot against the Dark Depths/Thopter Foundry decks that will be covering the format (not to mention Faeries, UW Control, etc.). While this might seem contradictory to my earlier points about aggro being TOO powerful, there is a big difference between the enabling Vial and the win-condition Goyf. Besides, only certain decks can use Vial (those with heavy-creature aggro strategies like Goblins, Elves, Fish, and so on). Goyf can get played in EVERYTHING from Rock to Threshold, from Aggro Loam to Team America. Heck; Merfolk runs Goyf in some builds, and I'm just saying, Goyf ain't a fish.
Entomb is a trickier question. The loss of Reanimate and Exhume is big, even though Death replaces Reanimate quite nicely. But there's no decent replacement for Exhume. The points about Animate Dead and Necromancy are bad ones, because Reanimator just doesn't use these cards. So what's the big fuss about Entomb?
If I were the DCI, I would be worried about Entomb Hulk. Using some combination of Innocent Blood/Carrion Feeder/Chainer's Edict/etc. and an Entombed/Reanimated Protean Hulk, you have a nasty kill. Not to mention the fully new-format-legal Footsteps of the Goryo. Sound clunky? Test against it. Life-loss doesn't matter when you can win in a single turn.
That all said, Entomb is not the scariest card on the prospective Banned List. It's no Skullclamp or Sensei's Divining Top.
-ktkenshinx-
Yes, Mind's Desire is a bit strong, but it's been fine in Classic, online, just like Skullclamp. Infact, everything restricted in Classic doesn't exist in the format. (a format that until recently, didn't have the brokenness of Urza block to deal with)
As for Divining Top, it's kind of a laughable ban like Land Tax in Legacy. Really slow play enforcement should be able to handle things rather than banning fair cards.
Now, as for this Entomb/Hulk, I like the idea and yes, it is powerful. It's far more disruptable than storm combo, though, and requires 3+ cards in addition to mana accel like Dark Ritual. It will occasionally go off and kill people before they even drop a land, but so did Dragonstorm in standard. It does sound like something I'd have fun dropping on an unprepared meta for the span of 1 tournament, though.
Yes, I know, Tarmogoyf is stronger than any other vanilla beater. I know it's played in a lot of decks. This is an eternal format, though, where you're supposed to be allowed to do all kinds of broken ☺☺☺☺ unless it's so powerful that nothing else can compete. Besides, being a creature, it faces more maindeck hate than any broken combo probably ever will. Sure, it's a bit dumb, but it's just more splashable than Leatherback and Thoctar, both of which, retain their size even though graveyard hate and can easily hit turn 2 in the right deck.
I have been discussing ideas like Mulldrifter's for some time. Reprinting New-Format staples in FTV/Master's Edition/Intro Packs at a high retail price would make a lot of money for Wizards. Indeed, that's the chief problem with Legacy as so many people have pointed out; no money for Wizards. A new format, on the other hand, would definitely give Wizards some revenue, especially if they were clever and insightful on their reprints. Consulting with good players from past formats and from tournament data, Wizards could determine what cards need reprinting. This would generate profits for Wizards, and keep the new format healthy and strong in its early years (provided that adequate supplies are offered).
As to the Mind's Desire banning, the card is probably less problematic than Ad Nauseam. If indeed we are using history as our judge, then the clunkier Desire decks of old have very little on the elegant and powerful ANT decks of the present day. The loss of Lion's Eye Diamond is big in the ANT list, but there are certainly substitutes that can be used to pump up Infernal Tutor back to its rightful broken place. My problem with Mind's Desire is more one of history than raw card power. Back in the older Extended, people were still figuring out how to build storm decks. Combo theory has evolved since then, and decklists/banlists have reflected that.
While the Mind's Desire "Scare" might be somewhat reasonable, the Dredge scare is definitely not. The only tool that players lose against Dredge is FoW against a turn 1 PImp or Tribe (let's not get technical about other lost tools like Tabernacle, Moat, Elephant Grass, Swords, and other tangential answers to Dredge). ALL of the graveyard hate remains. Trinisphere remains. Chalice of the Void, Magus of the Tabernacle, Magus of the Moat, Ghostly Prison, etc. These cards are still here and still would give Dredge players serious problems in games 2 and 3. As a Dredge player myself, there is only so much you can do using Therapy/Grudge to stave off the classic 3x Crypt/2x Ravenous Trap (or some permutation thereof) that any deck can run as graveyard hate.
Quote from Smokestack »
Well developed in relation to each other? Yeah, probably. Well developed in relation to the absurd monstrosity that Dredge is? No, I don't believe this is true.
I am not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that Dredge is a perfect deck and that these others are only "good decks", and hence well developed in relation to other "good decks" (but not perfect decks)?
One card that people keep talking around is Aether Vial. Banned or unbanned? Personally, I believe it should remain playable for the health of various aggro archetypes. As I said in an earlier post, Goblins/Fish definitely need the Vial in order to remain viable, and other decks such as Faeries and Elves might benefit from it. That said, Affinity would also benefit from it, and giving Affinity back even 1 of its 2 banned weapons (Disciple being the other one), might be too risky.
About Intro Decks, do you guys remember the old Worlds decks they used to sell? They were gold bordered, and didn't have the official magic back, meaning they were basically expensive proxies. With the new format, no reprint policy, why bother asking anyone what to print? Just look at the registered decklists of the Top 8 of the latest big tournament, make 8 decks. Commence printing money.
This would have two major impacts on the format: 1) It's incredibly easy to netdeck. Lots of players are going to show up with last tourneys winner card for card. 2) The successful players will be the ones who arrive prepared to beat those 8 decks, meaning the metagame will shift at least a little every tourney, meaning the decks Wizards prints in each run will at least have some variety of staples every time.
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2. Dark Ritual (it's the only card in this format that's on a different level of power. rite of flame will be played in lots of decks, and Dark Rit is just soo much stronger. I think without Dark Rit, Mind's Desire storm and similar decks would be perfectly managable.)(Some could argue that Brainstorm is on the same level as Dark Rit, but Brainstorm is stronger when the cards it digs into are stronger, with this weaker format Brainstorm is inherently weaker)
3. Disciple of the Vault (Affinity has a bad rap, and Wizards wouldn't want to risk Affinity being the most popular deck in the beginning, because it's negative connotation could hurt the format. Also, I'm not banning Aether Vial, so Affinity probably needs to lose this)
4. Tarmogoyf (Look at his playability in Legacy. Yes he's not played in combo, which the banned list really needs to focus on. Yet he's just too good. He's obviously a mistake. Wizards would want creatures to play a part in this format, and he's easily better than every other creature ever. Having to invest in Tarmogoyf for a non-combo deck would also make combo decks the budget decks of the format, and no one wants to see 60%+ of the field as combo decks.)
That's it.
Here are some cards that Wizards would watch closely:
Aether Vial: This makes non-Zoo aggro decks much more viable, and probably won't put affinity over-the-top. But it's ridiculously powerful and has been banned before, so it needs to be watched.
Sensei's Divining Top: It isn't banned in Legacy, and lots of players love this card. It's also a cornerstone for control decks that aren't control-combo like ThopterDepths. But it's banned in extended because it puts rounds to time, and this format would be a PTQ format. If this card is making the format unfun for non-Top players, it's probably not healthy.
Gush: It's free card-draw, and decks will play Ravnica dual lands. Yet it promotes "real lands" rather than saclands in combo decks, and also there aren't insane combo decks to put this card in. Desire storm might use Ravnica lands with Gush to help build up a giant Desire, but saclands are more explosive. If Gush might not get played in storm and similar decks, it's obviously not too powerful.
Mind's Desire: It was balanced in Extended throughout its tenure there. Without Dark Rit it's probably balanced here. Yet it's one of the stupidest printed since Urza's, and is something to watch.
Thopter Foundry: Yeah, really. It was unhealthy in extended, and is much harder to answer than Marit Lage. Having it as the wincon in every control deck as well as present in decks like Faeries and Dark Depths is boring. It's also ridiculously unfun to play against. If it has the same impact on Overextended that it had on extended, get it out of there. We don't want it. Sword of the Meek might be better to ban, but it's more likely to see play outside of the combo in bad casual decks.
Bridge from Below: A lot of people don't like Dredge. It's beatable in this format, for sure, but who wants to HAVE to devote 5-ish cards in their sideboard to this deck? If Dredge becomes too dominant, it would be good for the format to allow people to have 15 card sideboards.
I have been discussing ideas like Mulldrifter's for some time. Reprinting New-Format staples in FTV/Master's Edition/Intro Packs at a high retail price would make a lot of money for Wizards. Indeed, that's the chief problem with Legacy as so many people have pointed out; no money for Wizards. A new format, on the other hand, would definitely give Wizards some revenue, especially if they were clever and insightful on their reprints. Consulting with good players from past formats and from tournament data, Wizards could determine what cards need reprinting. This would generate profits for Wizards, and keep the new format healthy and strong in its early years (provided that adequate supplies are offered).
As to the Mind's Desire banning, the card is probably less problematic than Ad Nauseam. If indeed we are using history as our judge, then the clunkier Desire decks of old have very little on the elegant and powerful ANT decks of the present day. The loss of Lion's Eye Diamond is big in the ANT list, but there are certainly substitutes that can be used to pump up Infernal Tutor back to its rightful broken place. My problem with Mind's Desire is more one of history than raw card power. Back in the older Extended, people were still figuring out how to build storm decks. Combo theory has evolved since then, and decklists/banlists have reflected that.
While the Mind's Desire "Scare" might be somewhat reasonable, the Dredge scare is definitely not. The only tool that players lose against Dredge is FoW against a turn 1 PImp or Tribe (let's not get technical about other lost tools like Tabernacle, Moat, Elephant Grass, Swords, and other tangential answers to Dredge). ALL of the graveyard hate remains. Trinisphere remains. Chalice of the Void, Magus of the Tabernacle, Magus of the Moat, Ghostly Prison, etc. These cards are still here and still would give Dredge players serious problems in games 2 and 3. As a Dredge player myself, there is only so much you can do using Therapy/Grudge to stave off the classic 3x Crypt/2x Ravenous Trap (or some permutation thereof) that any deck can run as graveyard hate.
I am not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that Dredge is a perfect deck and that these others are only "good decks", and hence well developed in relation to other "good decks" (but not perfect decks)?
One card that people keep talking around is Aether Vial. Banned or unbanned? Personally, I believe it should remain playable for the health of various aggro archetypes. As I said in an earlier post, Goblins/Fish definitely need the Vial in order to remain viable, and other decks such as Faeries and Elves might benefit from it. That said, Affinity would also benefit from it, and giving Affinity back even 1 of its 2 banned weapons (Disciple being the other one), might be too risky.
So, thoughts on Aether Vial?
-ktkenshinx-
Having little experience with affinity decks, why would they run Aether Vial at all? If I remember right, Myr Enforce costs 7, Frogmite costs 4. Ornithopter is free. What's it even going to drop besides Disciple, Ravager, or Master of Etherium? By the point anything else could come off it, shouldn't the deck have barfed its hand onto the field and won the game? I've seen Aether Vial aggro in legacy, so I know how the card plays. It sounds like jank in the affinity deck, though, unless it runs different cards. I can see Faeries, Elves, Goblins, and Fish benefitting from Vial, though.
Having little experience with affinity decks, why would they run Aether Vial at all?
Every affinity build wants to run some form of acceleration that's synergistic with the overall deck strategy. Vial is a great choice for affinity -- it comes in under counterspells (and lets you bring in basically unlimited uncounterable threats once it hits the board), it helps you dump the guys you're drawing off your Thoughtcasts and whatnot quickly without needing a ton of mana on the board, it ups your affinity count by one, and you can feed it to your guys when you're done with it. The Vial Affinity deck tends to back up the Ravagers with Atogs and other synergistic 1-3 drops -- Master of Etherium, Arcbound Worker, etc.
Every affinity build wants to run some form of acceleration that's synergistic with the overall deck strategy. Vial is a great choice for affinity -- it comes in under counterspells (and lets you bring in basically unlimited uncounterable threats once it hits the board), it helps you dump the guys you're drawing off your Thoughtcasts and whatnot quickly without needing a ton of mana on the board, it ups your affinity count by one, and you can feed it to your guys when you're done with it. The Vial Affinity deck tends to back up the Ravagers with Atogs and other synergistic 1-3 drops -- Master of Etherium, Arcbound Worker, etc.
I can't guarantee it's still the strongest choice of accelerant with Disciple out, of course.
Well, that is pretty cool. Even with Disciple and Vial, though, I'm not sure if it's really that stellar of a threat. Afterall, the person promoting the deck even said it pretty much scoops to combo. If they just start the format with no banned list at all, sort of like how they did Classic, I think it'll probably be fine. Now, should some other things have to be banned, then, maybe Disciple and Vial should be reevaluated, but I'd like to see what the format can do for itself with 100% of the cards. Afterall, banning should be a last resort.
If they just start the format with no banned list at all, sort of like how they did Classic, I think it'll probably be fine.
Wouldn't you run into a problem with Skullclamp? While a number of cards that could be banned fit into narrow decks (like Disciple of the Vault) or specific strategies (like Mind's Desire), wouldn't Skullclamp just try to fit into every deck that could use it. Isn't that why it is currently banned in Legacy?
Wouldn't you run into a problem with Skullclamp? While a number of cards that could be banned fit into narrow decks (like Disciple of the Vault) or specific strategies (like Mind's Desire), wouldn't Skullclamp just try to fit into every deck that could use it. Isn't that why it is currently banned in Legacy?
It's banned in legacy because they banned it in block and then, shortly after, in every other format without even giving it a chance to work things out. It was sort of like the Mind's Desire banning or restricting Chrome Mox in vintage. Around that time, they were just hitting things in eternal with the ban/restrict stick without even waiting for tournament results. Just look at Classic, online where Skullclamp is still sitting there, unrestricted, even without super broken cards like power 9 floating around. This isn't a severely limited format we're talking about like block. Sure, Skullclamp would make a few decks better, but the idea that every deck would play 12+ X/1 creatures in an eternal format is pretty out there. We're talking a format where you're potentially allowed to build decks capable of first turn kills a reasonable percentage of the time.
I really hope this format is made. I've always liked Extended and was upset when it was slated to rotate every year. I feel WOTC is making up for this but eliminating duals, and three really broken blocks (Tempest, Saga and Mirage).
-ktkenshinx-
if combo and control can already survive in extended, they can in this new format.
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Compared to what? Legacy? Better without fow and daze with shocklands?
Actuly that is a VERY strong argument FOR Combo getting better FOW, Daze ect are what keeps them in check. not so much for control though.
Just because banning a card might get other cards played again isn't a good reason, though. It's no more rediculous than Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, Wooly Thoctar, or Leatherback Baloth. Banning it would have to be for the same kind of reason Kird Ape and Juggernaut got banned when they created extended. Its not out there killing people by turn 2-3, it's not generating insurmountable card advantage, it's not wasting tons of time other than the fact that it can block other Tarmogoyfs, it wasn't underprinted and placed on the reserved list, and it's not doing much of anything besides being a bit undercosted. It wouldn't even be worth splashing for if it didn't answer itself.
Was talking about control, while combo is fixed by the banned list.
Disciple probably isn't needed on the list. Affinity isn't even recognized as much of a threat in extended anymore. It could really get its last toy back.
Entomb is just fine in legacy and in overextended, it doesn't even have Animate Dead and Exhume. I'm not even sure if it can be competitive without them.
Mind's Desire hasn't even gotten a chance, since they just took a sledgehammer approach before it was ever legal, just like they did with Chrome Mox, which is tearing Vintage apart, right now.
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Yes, but if that becomes a big card for reanimator, it'll get eaten alive by burn. Especially with the free Bolt from the mana base, it could be over on turn 2, easily. That's probably not enough to make reanimator uncompetitive, but it could balance it out quite a bit.
Goyf is leaps and bounds better than all of those creatures that you list. The comparison is not even a good one; if Zoo could play 12 Goyf, it would. Sadly, it can't, so it settles for the alternatives. Thoctar and Baloth aren't even on the list of relevant aggro cards in Standard or Legacy.
I agree that Goyf does not waste time and does not generate card advantage. It is extremely aggressive, however. Far moreso than any other creature ever printed. I disagree with the statement that shocklands + goyf is a stable and safe format. Free lightning bolts are ugly against aggro, and Zoo is a serious contender in this new format; the only cards it loses from Legacy are Chain Lightning and Swords. Given that Chain Lightning is essentially replaced by fetchland-->shockland, they won't be missing it too much.
I agree with flaming infinity's statement that combo is meant to be strong in an eternal format. It's not as if decks don't have game 2/3 answers awaiting in the sideboard. Mindbreak Trap is nasty against storm, as are both Stifle and Trickbind. Ravenous Trap, Tormod's Crypt, and Relic of Progenitus are powerful answers to graveyard-based combo. Chalice of the Void, Ethersworn Canonist, and Trinisphere are further options that decks have at their disposal. Heck, maindecked Duress and Thoughtseize would be around enough to keep combo in check.
This does not exactly apply to Mind's Desire. Historically, the card has been laughably powerful and decks using Mind's Desire are able to power through most hate. The same goes, to a lesser extent, for Ad Nauseam. Do these both need banning? Historically, Desire does, but this might be up for debate.
As to Disciple of the Vault, the only reason I voted for Disciple's banning is because I hope for Aether Vial's unbanning. Unbanned Aether Vial would give aggro decks a nice shot against the Dark Depths/Thopter Foundry decks that will be covering the format (not to mention Faeries, UW Control, etc.). While this might seem contradictory to my earlier points about aggro being TOO powerful, there is a big difference between the enabling Vial and the win-condition Goyf. Besides, only certain decks can use Vial (those with heavy-creature aggro strategies like Goblins, Elves, Fish, and so on). Goyf can get played in EVERYTHING from Rock to Threshold, from Aggro Loam to Team America. Heck; Merfolk runs Goyf in some builds, and I'm just saying, Goyf ain't a fish.
Entomb is a trickier question. The loss of Reanimate and Exhume is big, even though Death replaces Reanimate quite nicely. But there's no decent replacement for Exhume. The points about Animate Dead and Necromancy are bad ones, because Reanimator just doesn't use these cards. So what's the big fuss about Entomb?
If I were the DCI, I would be worried about Entomb Hulk. Using some combination of Innocent Blood/Carrion Feeder/Chainer's Edict/etc. and an Entombed/Reanimated Protean Hulk, you have a nasty kill. Not to mention the fully new-format-legal Footsteps of the Goryo. Sound clunky? Test against it. Life-loss doesn't matter when you can win in a single turn.
That all said, Entomb is not the scariest card on the prospective Banned List. It's no Skullclamp or Sensei's Divining Top.
-ktkenshinx-
1. The reserve list is solid. Period. It seems to be legal reasons, or commands downward from Hasbro, or just suggestions from legal representatives. It is not something that they think might be good because market research says it's good to keep their word or something. The reserve list isn't going anywhere in the forseeable future.
2. Wizards does not really make money off of Legacy. Wizards only makes money through Extended because of boosters sales of newer sets, which is basically the same money they are making off of standard. (I'm not mentioning PTQ profits because PTQ formats are whatever they want). If Overextended became an actuality, they would not make a lot of direct profit from it. But they would have the ability to.
3. Overextended supporters, which probably does but may not include Wizards, do not want a "cheap legacy." They want an eternal (nonrotating) format that can be highly competitive and remain accessibly cheap. Legacy may take a hit from Overextended in terms of playerbase and prices, but that's the choice of legacy players and not Wizards' fault. Overextended would not only give Wizards a format to supplement Standard and Limited, but also a way to make a little profit off of the recent Legacy boom.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is the subset of players that the idea of Overextended targets. There's a demographic of magic players that tends to drift toward the top in competitive magic. They are relatively young, usually 18-28, mostly college students. Most name pros are members of this demographic. These players play the best deck almost regardless of cost, because they are competitive (what they like most about the game). They have money to spend on magic but their resources aren't limitless, and most don't have a great job. Borrowing cards is a norm, and the rising price of standard is definitely having an impact on this subset.
Now look at a group of Legacy players. The subset described above is represented much less in the Legacy community. These players may borrow a deck from a friend, or might come up with the money for Legacy. Some even primarily play Legacy. But standard is much hotter, and most of this subset concentrate on it as well as extended. Yes, it might be wise for this subset to invest in dual lands and play Legacy, which is highly skill intensive (something they love) and end up with a deck that won't rotate. But they don't because Standard is hotter and these players love ptq's.
Overextended is great for this subset, as it provides them with a solid eternal format that they can afford to play (barely, just like standard now). This format will not be much more expensive than extended if at all, and probably cheaper than current standard. It will also be supported with a PTQ season, something extremely important for this subset.
Yes, I would put myself in the described subset of player. People need to know we exist and play an important role in magic.
Muraganda Block
[MGD] Muraganda: The Lost World
[MGD] Vartica: Ice Age Hemisphere
Intro packs for overextended. Does Wizards really make tons of money from extended because of ravnica box sales? Reprinting many staples of Overextended in this type of format would lower prices on many staples, but wouldn't tank them.
One type of intro pack could be a nonrandom set of cards, like FtV or a theme deck of old. There could be 5-10 themes packs that include 5-10 rares and 15-20 uncommons and commons. These cards would be nonstandard, to keep booster profits up. It could also include a premium basic land from each set in overextended (the type perhaps based on the theme of the pack it's in, or they could just be random), showing a bit of architecture from the format. It could even include an insert describing the format and showcasing a few basic decks in the format from top 8's with a few paragraphs from the deckbuilder describing it. The price would be based on how much wizards wants to risk decreasing secondary market prices.
Here are some random ideas for these intro packs, and yes i'm probably missing a lot of cards and some have dumb names, but this is just for the sake of example: An artifact OE intro pack containing engineered explosives, chrome mox, trinisphere, umezawa's jitte, and arcbound ravager along with thopter foundry, tormod's crypt, divining top and aether vial if they're not banned and other artifacts and cards such as trinket mage.
"Giant Creatures" pack could include Goyf (if he's not banned) to drive his price down as well as Knight of the Reliquary, Spiritmonger, Baneslayer Angel (unless they want her in demand to sell core set), and Sundering Titan, along with Nacatl, Ape, Wooly Thoctar, etc.
"Power Tribes" could contain Goblin Piledriver, Lord of Atlantis, Merfolk Sovereign, Elvish Archdruid, and Mutavault with most of rest of their tribes at common and uncommon.
"Super Sorceries" could be Burning Wish, Mind's Desire, Glimpse of Nature, Thoughtseize, and Wrath of God with Pyroclasm, Duress etc.
"Manipulation" could have Dark Confidant, Stifle, Jace the Mind Sculptor (if he's not in standard at this time), Life from the Loam, and Grim Lavamancer with Daze, Fact or Fiction, Path to exile etc.
"Dominant Enchantments" can have Leyline of the Void, Food Chain, Bridge from Below, Blood Moon, and Bitterblossom, with of course Counterbalance, Ghostly Prison, Armadillo Cloak, etc.
"Pure Gold" could have Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, and Glimpse the Unthinkable.
The above packs would easily be worth 60$+ but could easily sell for 30$ (15-20$ is probably possible but might be risky).
The problem with these theme packs are LANDS. Lands are very important, especially Ravnica Shocklands and Ons+Zen fetchlands. Almost all relevant lands are rare, even outside of these (river of tears, mutavault, painlands adn filterlands, etc), and also selling a pack of lands for 30$+ wouldn't excite some people. Anyone have a solution to this? or is this just a huge problem for my theme pack idea?
Here's another idea: booster packs with high-demand overextended cards. One rare with two uncommons and two commons. It could cost as much as a regular booster (3-5$). Rares could range from Scapeshift (fine for 4$) to Tarmogoyf. Of course these boosters may need to cost 10$ depending on the quality of cards in them. They could even do mythic rares at a higher rarity like Tarmogoyf and Baneslayer to keep prices from plummeting too much. Here's a random booster pack: Wooded Foothills, Narcomeoba, Goblin Warchief, Brainstorm, Cabal Ritual. Wouldn't these sell like crazy? Awesome moneymaker for Wizards, assuming it wouldn't have too much of a negative impact on secondary prices. Assuming this "reprint set" is about the same size as a normal set, it would have about 70 rares (assuming no mythics), 70 uncommons, and 70 commons (obviously constructed decks are rather rare-heavy). One Chrome Mox opened per 70 packs probably wouldn't drop the Starcitygames price of 20$ much, but it would put more Moxes into the hands of the players who need them: Overextended players. If booster boxes of these were available, people would go insane buying them.
This Overextended reprint "set" would have to be redone after a certain period of years, like Masters Edition or Core sets. Two years sounds about right. Newer cards that impact overextended, like Knight of the Reliquary or Jace 2.0 would be introduced. Also some cards would go out, like if perhaps no one is playing Goblins anymore, don't print the Goblin stuff for a cycle, then maybe bring them back in another edition. Standard and limited would sell boosters of the new sets for wizards, while overextended would have it's own "set" to bring in profit.
These boosters could possibly somewhat diminish the non-monetary value of older cards to older players. But it would be very appealing to newer tournament players who wouldn't be so daunted by the massive card pool of overextended because they can buy packs with a lot of the good cards that they need.
Anybody see any problems/suggestions with these two ideas for Wizards?
Muraganda Block
[MGD] Muraganda: The Lost World
[MGD] Vartica: Ice Age Hemisphere
i would suggest:
must:
aether vial
skullclamp
sensei's divining top
maybe:
mind's desire
gush
disciple of the vault
ad nauseam
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
Yes, Mind's Desire is a bit strong, but it's been fine in Classic, online, just like Skullclamp. Infact, everything restricted in Classic doesn't exist in the format. (a format that until recently, didn't have the brokenness of Urza block to deal with)
As for Divining Top, it's kind of a laughable ban like Land Tax in Legacy. Really slow play enforcement should be able to handle things rather than banning fair cards.
Now, as for this Entomb/Hulk, I like the idea and yes, it is powerful. It's far more disruptable than storm combo, though, and requires 3+ cards in addition to mana accel like Dark Ritual. It will occasionally go off and kill people before they even drop a land, but so did Dragonstorm in standard. It does sound like something I'd have fun dropping on an unprepared meta for the span of 1 tournament, though.
Yes, I know, Tarmogoyf is stronger than any other vanilla beater. I know it's played in a lot of decks. This is an eternal format, though, where you're supposed to be allowed to do all kinds of broken ☺☺☺☺ unless it's so powerful that nothing else can compete. Besides, being a creature, it faces more maindeck hate than any broken combo probably ever will. Sure, it's a bit dumb, but it's just more splashable than Leatherback and Thoctar, both of which, retain their size even though graveyard hate and can easily hit turn 2 in the right deck.
As to the Mind's Desire banning, the card is probably less problematic than Ad Nauseam. If indeed we are using history as our judge, then the clunkier Desire decks of old have very little on the elegant and powerful ANT decks of the present day. The loss of Lion's Eye Diamond is big in the ANT list, but there are certainly substitutes that can be used to pump up Infernal Tutor back to its rightful broken place. My problem with Mind's Desire is more one of history than raw card power. Back in the older Extended, people were still figuring out how to build storm decks. Combo theory has evolved since then, and decklists/banlists have reflected that.
While the Mind's Desire "Scare" might be somewhat reasonable, the Dredge scare is definitely not. The only tool that players lose against Dredge is FoW against a turn 1 PImp or Tribe (let's not get technical about other lost tools like Tabernacle, Moat, Elephant Grass, Swords, and other tangential answers to Dredge). ALL of the graveyard hate remains. Trinisphere remains. Chalice of the Void, Magus of the Tabernacle, Magus of the Moat, Ghostly Prison, etc. These cards are still here and still would give Dredge players serious problems in games 2 and 3. As a Dredge player myself, there is only so much you can do using Therapy/Grudge to stave off the classic 3x Crypt/2x Ravenous Trap (or some permutation thereof) that any deck can run as graveyard hate.
I am not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that Dredge is a perfect deck and that these others are only "good decks", and hence well developed in relation to other "good decks" (but not perfect decks)?
One card that people keep talking around is Aether Vial. Banned or unbanned? Personally, I believe it should remain playable for the health of various aggro archetypes. As I said in an earlier post, Goblins/Fish definitely need the Vial in order to remain viable, and other decks such as Faeries and Elves might benefit from it. That said, Affinity would also benefit from it, and giving Affinity back even 1 of its 2 banned weapons (Disciple being the other one), might be too risky.
So, thoughts on Aether Vial?
-ktkenshinx-
This would have two major impacts on the format: 1) It's incredibly easy to netdeck. Lots of players are going to show up with last tourneys winner card for card. 2) The successful players will be the ones who arrive prepared to beat those 8 decks, meaning the metagame will shift at least a little every tourney, meaning the decks Wizards prints in each run will at least have some variety of staples every time.
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1. Skullclamp (obv)
2. Dark Ritual (it's the only card in this format that's on a different level of power. rite of flame will be played in lots of decks, and Dark Rit is just soo much stronger. I think without Dark Rit, Mind's Desire storm and similar decks would be perfectly managable.)(Some could argue that Brainstorm is on the same level as Dark Rit, but Brainstorm is stronger when the cards it digs into are stronger, with this weaker format Brainstorm is inherently weaker)
3. Disciple of the Vault (Affinity has a bad rap, and Wizards wouldn't want to risk Affinity being the most popular deck in the beginning, because it's negative connotation could hurt the format. Also, I'm not banning Aether Vial, so Affinity probably needs to lose this)
4. Tarmogoyf (Look at his playability in Legacy. Yes he's not played in combo, which the banned list really needs to focus on. Yet he's just too good. He's obviously a mistake. Wizards would want creatures to play a part in this format, and he's easily better than every other creature ever. Having to invest in Tarmogoyf for a non-combo deck would also make combo decks the budget decks of the format, and no one wants to see 60%+ of the field as combo decks.)
That's it.
Here are some cards that Wizards would watch closely:
Aether Vial: This makes non-Zoo aggro decks much more viable, and probably won't put affinity over-the-top. But it's ridiculously powerful and has been banned before, so it needs to be watched.
Sensei's Divining Top: It isn't banned in Legacy, and lots of players love this card. It's also a cornerstone for control decks that aren't control-combo like ThopterDepths. But it's banned in extended because it puts rounds to time, and this format would be a PTQ format. If this card is making the format unfun for non-Top players, it's probably not healthy.
Gush: It's free card-draw, and decks will play Ravnica dual lands. Yet it promotes "real lands" rather than saclands in combo decks, and also there aren't insane combo decks to put this card in. Desire storm might use Ravnica lands with Gush to help build up a giant Desire, but saclands are more explosive. If Gush might not get played in storm and similar decks, it's obviously not too powerful.
Mind's Desire: It was balanced in Extended throughout its tenure there. Without Dark Rit it's probably balanced here. Yet it's one of the stupidest printed since Urza's, and is something to watch.
Thopter Foundry: Yeah, really. It was unhealthy in extended, and is much harder to answer than Marit Lage. Having it as the wincon in every control deck as well as present in decks like Faeries and Dark Depths is boring. It's also ridiculously unfun to play against. If it has the same impact on Overextended that it had on extended, get it out of there. We don't want it. Sword of the Meek might be better to ban, but it's more likely to see play outside of the combo in bad casual decks.
Bridge from Below: A lot of people don't like Dredge. It's beatable in this format, for sure, but who wants to HAVE to devote 5-ish cards in their sideboard to this deck? If Dredge becomes too dominant, it would be good for the format to allow people to have 15 card sideboards.
Muraganda Block
[MGD] Muraganda: The Lost World
[MGD] Vartica: Ice Age Hemisphere
Having little experience with affinity decks, why would they run Aether Vial at all? If I remember right, Myr Enforce costs 7, Frogmite costs 4. Ornithopter is free. What's it even going to drop besides Disciple, Ravager, or Master of Etherium? By the point anything else could come off it, shouldn't the deck have barfed its hand onto the field and won the game? I've seen Aether Vial aggro in legacy, so I know how the card plays. It sounds like jank in the affinity deck, though, unless it runs different cards. I can see Faeries, Elves, Goblins, and Fish benefitting from Vial, though.
Every affinity build wants to run some form of acceleration that's synergistic with the overall deck strategy. Vial is a great choice for affinity -- it comes in under counterspells (and lets you bring in basically unlimited uncounterable threats once it hits the board), it helps you dump the guys you're drawing off your Thoughtcasts and whatnot quickly without needing a ton of mana on the board, it ups your affinity count by one, and you can feed it to your guys when you're done with it. The Vial Affinity deck tends to back up the Ravagers with Atogs and other synergistic 1-3 drops -- Master of Etherium, Arcbound Worker, etc.
(See also http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8437.html and http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18819166/DTW_Vial_Affinity .)
I can't guarantee it's still the strongest choice of accelerant with Disciple out, of course.
Well, that is pretty cool. Even with Disciple and Vial, though, I'm not sure if it's really that stellar of a threat. Afterall, the person promoting the deck even said it pretty much scoops to combo. If they just start the format with no banned list at all, sort of like how they did Classic, I think it'll probably be fine. Now, should some other things have to be banned, then, maybe Disciple and Vial should be reevaluated, but I'd like to see what the format can do for itself with 100% of the cards. Afterall, banning should be a last resort.
Wouldn't you run into a problem with Skullclamp? While a number of cards that could be banned fit into narrow decks (like Disciple of the Vault) or specific strategies (like Mind's Desire), wouldn't Skullclamp just try to fit into every deck that could use it. Isn't that why it is currently banned in Legacy?
It's banned in legacy because they banned it in block and then, shortly after, in every other format without even giving it a chance to work things out. It was sort of like the Mind's Desire banning or restricting Chrome Mox in vintage. Around that time, they were just hitting things in eternal with the ban/restrict stick without even waiting for tournament results. Just look at Classic, online where Skullclamp is still sitting there, unrestricted, even without super broken cards like power 9 floating around. This isn't a severely limited format we're talking about like block. Sure, Skullclamp would make a few decks better, but the idea that every deck would play 12+ X/1 creatures in an eternal format is pretty out there. We're talking a format where you're potentially allowed to build decks capable of first turn kills a reasonable percentage of the time.
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