I'm of the camp that believes FOW should come back. FOW in a void is not that great, without the support it gets in legacy (Daze, Brianstorm, etc) and with standard being mostly combo free right now, all it would really do is bring a heavy blue counter deck maybe up the the powerlevel of the aggro decks that currently trounce control.
It's also coming into an environment where card's can't be pitched for it (colorless stuff) and monocolored decks (specifically blue) are not very good at all. There are also a lot of answers available in cascade, Lodestone Golem, etc.
That being said, My want is not so much for force of will, though I would like to see it be reprinted so people can play legacy more, but for free counters for blue. I think that both daze and Foil could both come back in standard and extended, let alone this new format and have positive but balanced impact on the game. Outside of Merfolk I don't see those cards getting all that much play to be honest.
I am fairly certain that this data comes from deckcheck.net, a highly reputable source for Legacy decklists. Your interpretation of FoW's prevalence is flatly wrong. Any card is considered a "threat" by FoW players, and those who wield the card get a quick and easy answer to the format's scariest tools. As a Legacy player, I will attest that FoW is not broken, nor does it warp the format. In the new format, however, it would probably be more warping (and it would assuredly be horrible for Standard).
-ktkenshinx-
Right, deckcheck it is.
And I'm not asserting its super warping, but legacy really is the format of Playing with or directly against force. The numbers pretty much bear that out.
I saw some people thinking Shocklands from ravnica would increase in price, this is unlikely as I feel this "overextended", "super extended", "legacy light" would just flat out kill extended.
My friend thinks brainstorms will jump in price and I don't think Mind's Desire would be broken in this format.
But it is the defining card of the format, and you really do either play with it or against it.
Since it is the defining card it's possible WoTC would reprint it to recreate this post masques format into a sort of non reserved list legacy which seems possible considering this whole rumored format business started now that legacy is rising in popularity each year as extended slowly withers
I like how Goyf who hasn't been around anywhere near as long as those other cards is catching up to them. Goyf if what really warps formats not FoW.
FoW would be horrible in standard, what turn one play would you ever want to use FoW on in standard?
Yeah. Force of Will and Brainstorm have been around for as long as 1.5 (Legacy) has been in existence. Goyf has been out for, what, 3-4 years compared to the other's 12-13? Also, tons of decks splash green solely for the Goyf...nobody does that for Blue's toys (mostly because Force needs a lot of Blue cards as pitch fodder).
Still, it does have a profound effect on the format, keeping combo in check, so one could certainly argue that it "warps" or "defines" the format, but making it a "play with it or against it" scenario is funny. Plenty of decks don't run it, and plenty of decks never really sweat it.
As for reprinting it for Overextended (love this name), again, if they're going to put that much effort into this format at the cost of other formats, they might as well just work towards making Legacy more accessible, which they can easily do as I posted earlier in the thread. Or make Extended actually worth playing.
Rather than reprinting force, what about a banlist on key combo enablers, particularly acceleration? The old eternal banlists were kinda long, and most cards on those are already excluded from this format, so we have a good amount of room here.
As for reprinting it for Overextended (love this name), again, if they're going to put that much effort into this format at the cost of other formats, they might as well just work towards making Legacy more accessible, which they can easily do as I posted earlier in the thread. Or make Extended actually worth playing.
There are two reasons why Wizards would have no incentive to reprint FoW. While they could reprint it, they simply have no reason to do so. Here is why:
1. Standard cannot have FoW. Blue decks would be utterly out of control, and T2 players would be furious. Wizards admittedly could reprint FoW, immediately ban it in Extended and Standard, and leave it for just the new format, but this goes against their card printing policy. Wizards would not reprint a card that was only useful to certain formats. They need the card accessible to all players, not just a select few.
2. A post MM format does not need FoW. Bannings alone would keep the format in check (Mind's Desire, Ad Nauseum, Entomb, Disciple of the Vault, etc.) With these cards gone, FoW would not need to be around.
This debate should not hinge around FoW's presence or absence. One card defines Legacy, but it need not define this new format. Intelligent planning on Wizards part will guarantee this.
I never said it would warp standard. or that it "warped" legacy.
But it is the defining card of the format, and you really do either play with it or against it.
I wouldn't say FOW defines legacy so much as combo defines it. There's something to be said about how low the mana curves are in the format. What that list says to me is that blue sees trememdous legacy play due to being necessary to support FOW, which battles combo. It's really no secret that counterspells are the primary combo fighting tool.
Now, Tarmogoyf is the surprising one due to the fact that it's a pretty new card that was printed 3 years ago. Of course, from what I've seen Tarmogoyf sees heavy play mostly because it's the best answer to Tarmogoyf and happens to double as an alternate win con in its spare time.
FoW would be horrible in standard, what turn one play would you ever want to use FoW on in standard?
This comment is patently absurd. You don't play FoW just so you can cast it on turn 0.
It would still be a very strong card in today's standard.
Imagine UW control walling up then casting Jace 2.0 with Force backup. They can counter any burn thrown at Jace, they can counter removal thrown at the wall (to stop your creatures from attacking Jace) and next turn they will untap, allowing them to use the rest of the cards in their hand, and just ride the planeswalker to victory.
You can use the same example but replace Jace with Baneslayer Angel. FoW takes away the one turn window that you usually have to deal with a tap-out control deck's finisher. It would be pretty nuts.
Anyway, back on topic, I don't think combo would be too overpowered in this new format, and I'm not too sure how much help FoW would be any way (It's not that effective against storm combo, or dredge). Seriously, what combo would be enabled that would be more degenerate than Hexmage-Depths already is?
I for one would love the opportunity to update some old extended favourites including:
CAL
UG Madness
Aggro Loam
TEPs (the real version with Burning Wish, not the neutered one from last year)
Loamatog
Life/Cephalid Breakfast
Since it is the defining card it's possible WoTC would reprint it to recreate this post masques format into a sort of non reserved list legacy which seems possible considering this whole rumored format business started now that legacy is rising in popularity each year as extended slowly withers
OR... They could just ban the reserve list, that would solve some problems. (and create new ones, for discussions sake)
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I saw some people thinking Shocklands from ravnica would increase in price, this is unlikely as I feel this "overextended", "super extended", "legacy light" would just flat out kill extended.
My friend thinks brainstorms will jump in price and I don't think Mind's Desire would be broken in this format.
extended will never die aslong as its a pyq format, and if this new format is created im pretty sure wizards would drop the legacy gp's for the new format, rather then the extended ptq's.
Reprinting FoW would breka standard wide open, theres a reaosn we don't have counterspell, FoW is much, much more powerful
Counterspell isn't too powerful for standard considering the creature cards are ridiculous. Nacatl, Hierarchic, Knight of the Reliquary, Nighthawk, BBE.
I still maintain that Force wouldn't magically break T2 open. It would tilt the meta to control slightly but the most "ridiculous thing" would probably be on the draw turn 2 wall of omens with force for their knight.
Considering the quality of removal, path, oring, terminate, bolt, and the quality of creatures, baneslayer, jar jar, thrinax, goblin guide, stag, I believe that counterspell could exist without breaking the format just as bolt does now.
People would complain a lot though, but counterspell control wouldn't likely surpass jund in % field
I think force of will isn't really even in blue's color pie anymore. The paying life part, that is. I think they could make this card.
Force of Mind 2U
Instant
You may exile a blue card in your hand rather than pay ~'s mana cost.
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 3.
It's a little less powerful so it wouldn't have as many concerns in standard, and it doesn't make blue do something only black is supposed to do (and occasionally red).
extended will never die aslong as its a pyq format, and if this new format is created im pretty sure wizards would drop the legacy gp's for the new format, rather then the extended ptq's.
I'm pretty sure you're wrong and they will drop the extended ptq's.
I havent really been following the discussion so I dont know if this has been brought up. Assuming wizards goes through with this (I almost exclusively play legacy and hope not) an easy way to get alot of the legacy players on board would be to do a masters set accompanying the new format, printing relevant cards pre-masques not on the reserved list. A few off the top of my head, Force of Will, Goblin Lackey. I still wouldn’t be happy about loosing Mox Diamond, Phyrexian Dreadnaught, and other obvious staples but wouldn’t feel like Wizards was killing the game I love playing
I havent really been following the discussion so I dont know if this has been brought up. Assuming wizards goes through with this (I almost exclusively play legacy and hope not) an easy way to get alot of the legacy players on board would be to do a masters set accompanying the new format, printing relevant cards pre-masques not on the reserved list. A few off the top of my head, Force of Will, Goblin Lackey. I still wouldn’t be happy about loosing Mox Diamond, Phyrexian Dreadnaught, and other obvious staples but wouldn’t feel like Wizards was killing the game I love playing
The compilation set Chronicles is what spurred the Reserved list in the first place.
Having a format in which "Only Sets X-Y are legal...and card ZZZ" wouldn't be without precident:
Extended around that time included all cards from fifth edition onward AND the original ten dual lands. Kind of a weird way to do a format...but I kind of like it.
"Masques to Current...along with Force of Will, Goblin Lacky, etc..."
Extended around that time included all cards from fifth edition onward AND the original ten dual lands. Kind of a weird way to do a format...but I kind of like it.
"Masques to Current...along with Force of Will, Goblin Lacky, etc..."
That does not seem like something they would do today. If they want a card to be in the format, they reprint it or they include the entire set it was printed in.
That said, printing something similar to force would be the best choice of action IMO. Look at Penguinofhonor's card. It wouldn't break standard (I don't think it would at least) and it would be nearly as good as Force in extended/legacy/vintage, and sometimes better because it is without life loss.
Although you could even change the 3 to a 2 and it would still be played in eternal.
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It's also coming into an environment where card's can't be pitched for it (colorless stuff) and monocolored decks (specifically blue) are not very good at all. There are also a lot of answers available in cascade, Lodestone Golem, etc.
That being said, My want is not so much for force of will, though I would like to see it be reprinted so people can play legacy more, but for free counters for blue. I think that both daze and Foil could both come back in standard and extended, let alone this new format and have positive but balanced impact on the game. Outside of Merfolk I don't see those cards getting all that much play to be honest.
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Right, deckcheck it is.
And I'm not asserting its super warping, but legacy really is the format of Playing with or directly against force. The numbers pretty much bear that out.
I like how Goyf who hasn't been around anywhere near as long as those other cards is catching up to them. Goyf if what really warps formats not FoW.
FoW would be horrible in standard, what turn one play would you ever want to use FoW on in standard?
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My friend thinks brainstorms will jump in price and I don't think Mind's Desire would be broken in this format.
Now, I'm not alone.
I never said it would warp standard. or that it "warped" legacy.
But it is the defining card of the format, and you really do either play with it or against it.
Since it is the defining card it's possible WoTC would reprint it to recreate this post masques format into a sort of non reserved list legacy which seems possible considering this whole rumored format business started now that legacy is rising in popularity each year as extended slowly withers
Now, I'm not alone.
Yeah. Force of Will and Brainstorm have been around for as long as 1.5 (Legacy) has been in existence. Goyf has been out for, what, 3-4 years compared to the other's 12-13? Also, tons of decks splash green solely for the Goyf...nobody does that for Blue's toys (mostly because Force needs a lot of Blue cards as pitch fodder).
Still, it does have a profound effect on the format, keeping combo in check, so one could certainly argue that it "warps" or "defines" the format, but making it a "play with it or against it" scenario is funny. Plenty of decks don't run it, and plenty of decks never really sweat it.
As for reprinting it for Overextended (love this name), again, if they're going to put that much effort into this format at the cost of other formats, they might as well just work towards making Legacy more accessible, which they can easily do as I posted earlier in the thread. Or make Extended actually worth playing.
There are two reasons why Wizards would have no incentive to reprint FoW. While they could reprint it, they simply have no reason to do so. Here is why:
1. Standard cannot have FoW. Blue decks would be utterly out of control, and T2 players would be furious. Wizards admittedly could reprint FoW, immediately ban it in Extended and Standard, and leave it for just the new format, but this goes against their card printing policy. Wizards would not reprint a card that was only useful to certain formats. They need the card accessible to all players, not just a select few.
2. A post MM format does not need FoW. Bannings alone would keep the format in check (Mind's Desire, Ad Nauseum, Entomb, Disciple of the Vault, etc.) With these cards gone, FoW would not need to be around.
This debate should not hinge around FoW's presence or absence. One card defines Legacy, but it need not define this new format. Intelligent planning on Wizards part will guarantee this.
-ktkenshinx-
I wouldn't say FOW defines legacy so much as combo defines it. There's something to be said about how low the mana curves are in the format. What that list says to me is that blue sees trememdous legacy play due to being necessary to support FOW, which battles combo. It's really no secret that counterspells are the primary combo fighting tool.
Now, Tarmogoyf is the surprising one due to the fact that it's a pretty new card that was printed 3 years ago. Of course, from what I've seen Tarmogoyf sees heavy play mostly because it's the best answer to Tarmogoyf and happens to double as an alternate win con in its spare time.
Not many cards stall aggro while providing a 4 turn clock
Type 1.75 is more accurate since it's an evolution of Legacy. Maybe "Classic" or "Heritage"?
This comment is patently absurd. You don't play FoW just so you can cast it on turn 0.
It would still be a very strong card in today's standard.
Imagine UW control walling up then casting Jace 2.0 with Force backup. They can counter any burn thrown at Jace, they can counter removal thrown at the wall (to stop your creatures from attacking Jace) and next turn they will untap, allowing them to use the rest of the cards in their hand, and just ride the planeswalker to victory.
You can use the same example but replace Jace with Baneslayer Angel. FoW takes away the one turn window that you usually have to deal with a tap-out control deck's finisher. It would be pretty nuts.
Anyway, back on topic, I don't think combo would be too overpowered in this new format, and I'm not too sure how much help FoW would be any way (It's not that effective against storm combo, or dredge). Seriously, what combo would be enabled that would be more degenerate than Hexmage-Depths already is?
I for one would love the opportunity to update some old extended favourites including:
CAL
UG Madness
Aggro Loam
TEPs (the real version with Burning Wish, not the neutered one from last year)
Loamatog
Life/Cephalid Breakfast
OR... They could just ban the reserve list, that would solve some problems. (and create new ones, for discussions sake)
extended will never die aslong as its a pyq format, and if this new format is created im pretty sure wizards would drop the legacy gp's for the new format, rather then the extended ptq's.
I'm no expert on Pro Tours, but shouldn't a new format be introduced and then if it becomes popular, then turn it into a PT format?
Accept the truth.
They often beta-test things at tournament levels to see how people react. (There's really no other way to do it)
I personally loved "Choose your own standard", but i guess that's a bit more cumbersome to do en-mass.
Counterspell isn't too powerful for standard considering the creature cards are ridiculous. Nacatl, Hierarchic, Knight of the Reliquary, Nighthawk, BBE.
I still maintain that Force wouldn't magically break T2 open. It would tilt the meta to control slightly but the most "ridiculous thing" would probably be on the draw turn 2 wall of omens with force for their knight.
Considering the quality of removal, path, oring, terminate, bolt, and the quality of creatures, baneslayer, jar jar, thrinax, goblin guide, stag, I believe that counterspell could exist without breaking the format just as bolt does now.
People would complain a lot though, but counterspell control wouldn't likely surpass jund in % field
Now, I'm not alone.
Force of Mind 2U
Instant
You may exile a blue card in your hand rather than pay ~'s mana cost.
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 3.
It's a little less powerful so it wouldn't have as many concerns in standard, and it doesn't make blue do something only black is supposed to do (and occasionally red).
Commander:
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
BR Olivia Voldaren
BRG Shattergang Brothers
GUR Riku of Two Reflections
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
I'm pretty sure you're wrong and they will drop the extended ptq's.
The compilation set Chronicles is what spurred the Reserved list in the first place.
Having a format in which "Only Sets X-Y are legal...and card ZZZ" wouldn't be without precident:
http://www.wizards.com/dci/main.asp?x=UTR_MTG
Extended around that time included all cards from fifth edition onward AND the original ten dual lands. Kind of a weird way to do a format...but I kind of like it.
"Masques to Current...along with Force of Will, Goblin Lacky, etc..."
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That does not seem like something they would do today. If they want a card to be in the format, they reprint it or they include the entire set it was printed in.
That said, printing something similar to force would be the best choice of action IMO. Look at Penguinofhonor's card. It wouldn't break standard (I don't think it would at least) and it would be nearly as good as Force in extended/legacy/vintage, and sometimes better because it is without life loss.
Although you could even change the 3 to a 2 and it would still be played in eternal.