M11 gave Mono Black Control some good tools. I think it is possible to come up with a viable Mono black control deck once m11 comes out. Lets come up with some deck ideas and try to make mono black control viable again in standard
I don't know if we have all the cards we need yet, but yes, Grave Titan certainly got my MBC hopes up. He is awesome, not a demon, and feels like a solid win condition.
The loss of Tendrils is REALLY bad. Like, amazingly bad. There is still space in the crunch for Mutilate and Phyrexian Arena but even that I don't think would be enough.
You still have Tendrils of Corruption from M10 and Fleshbag Marauder from Shards until the rotation. Gatekeeper of Malakir is pretty awesome as well. I don't know if you'll be able to play like a traditional MBC deck without an efficient sweeper like Mutilate or Damnation, but some form of efficient removal based control might be playable. Here's my deck idea:
Those are just some rough ideas, but it could work. The cards certainly look powerful anyway. I agree that MBC has a better chance after the rotation of Cascade. Sadly, it will lose Tendrils of Corruption...
As for "Why play MBC?": Tendrils of Corruption, Corrupt, consistent Gatekeeper of Malakir, Mind Sludge. Seriously, Mind Sludge reads "Target player discards their hand" in mono black. T4 Consuming Vapors, T5 Mind Sludge, GG? Also, I imagine MBC will be pretty cheap to build compared to any type of blue deck, unless some extremely expensive card will be released for it. The land base is definitely cheaper than nearly any other deck too.
The last time MBC was even semi viable was Invasion/Odyssey standard, with all the benefits that confers.
Every single standard season (often multiple times in a season), someone notices a card that seems good and declares that "MBC is back!" Same with MUC, which I doubt any of the people who are abjectly terrified of its omnipresent shadow have ever actually played with or against.
It's not back, and it won't be coming back without card advantage. If Damnation and Korlash, Heir to Blackblade couldn't make black control viable (it ended up being a drastically worse version of U/B Teachings), then a bunch of playable finishers will not make it viable. Wrath of God basically only sees play in U/W control decks, and as long as the 4CMC sweeper costs 2WW, and its spot removal remains better, than U/W control will remain better than U/B control, which is still better than MBC.
IMO, MBC has enough finishers even now. 2 things which could bring MBC to the front is a token generator in a similar vein as dear Bitterblossom and a sweeper without enabling other decks to run the same cards easily. No evidence of that yet.
MBC didn't work in Time Spiral because of a land that let people play MBC specific cards in non-MBC decks.
That is a silly excuse and you know it.
MBC didn't work in Time Spiral because it didn't have Phyrexian Arena or sufficient broad card quality across all the black in standard to deal with the current metagame. The only black card that Urborg really allowed people to play outside of MBC decks that was worth playing was Tendrils of Corruption. U/W control works right now because of Spreading Seas and Wall of Denial backed up by Day of Judgment to clog the board, not its flashy arsenal of walkers. Black needs cards like that, not a new (admittedly very cool) finisher.
Let's wait on calling this until we see Dark Tutelage. If it's a functional Phyrexian Arena, then we are back in business. If its some random crap, then we shall see.
MBC didn't work in Time Spiral because it didn't have Phyrexian Arena or sufficient broad card quality across all the black in standard to deal with the current metagame. The only black card that Urborg really allowed people to play outside of MBC decks that was worth playing was Tendrils of Corruption. U/W control works right now because of Spreading Seas and Wall of Denial backed up by Day of Judgment to clog the board, not its flashy arsenal of walkers. Black needs cards like that, not a new (admittedly very cool) finisher.
i like the way you think Jimbo. yes indeed.
seriously, the mono-swamps thing is such a giant red herring. its constantly luring inexperienced players into playing mono-black decks with bad mana bases. then they get all surprised and dissapointed when the deck is basically terrible. a slightly above average removal spell or discard spell isn't nearly enough reason to play something narrow, easily hosed, and lacking the right tools.
I don't see how UW control could possibly win if you stick a T5 Mind Sludge. Wall of Denial? What is that going to do against Consuming Vapors, Gatekeeper of Malakir, and Fleshbag Marauder? They even hit Sphinx of Jwar Isle.
Spreading Seas against your swamp-based spells? Wow, so very effective. Now they hit for X-1. Totally hosed. *sarcasm*
Throw in a finisher that leaves a body around (2/2 zombie) even if it is removed, defeats Baneslayer Angel, and even Wall of Denial with deathtouch, and you have a pretty solid core.
Sure, we won't know how good or bad MBC really is until it sees play, but it has potential. I can definitely see it being better than vampires.dec, which, while it wasn't Tier 1, did post some results. I wouldn't call MBC a "giant red herring".
Persecutors, bloodwitches and Dranas are good enough finishers to me, on top of eldrazi via nirkana, and any MBC deck needs consume the meek and hexmages in, with things like vapours, sludge etc. as well. MBC isn't going to be that different come M11 to how it is now I think, the titan's a possible finisher but there's no point in running the demon- at what point are you likely to have three creatures out that aren't used as chumps (gatekeepers), PW removal (hexmages) or finishers, and why would you add more creatures without other effects to a control deck?
Corrupt directly replaces tendrils, and the MBC decks don't change too much, assuming duress and sign in blood are in. Also, no offense but before looking at creating a new MBC deck for M11, you might do well to look at the current MBC thread under standard.
As for what does MBC do, that is kill creatures, hand disruption and finishers.
Corrupt does not in any way replace Tendrils. If you are tapping out on turn 6 just to kill ONE creature you are doing it very wrong. TEndrils was very key as it allowed you to one for one up until turn 4 (or even turn 2 SiB then T3 removal) and anything that slipped through you negated with a life swing and removal.
Let's not kid ourselves, Tendrils really helps MBC last until the turn 5 or 6 Mind Sludge. It's almost as essential as Coffers was back in INV/ODY/ONS.
I'm also toying with MBC in my mind seeing some of these cards.
So, allow me some slightly out-of-the-box thinking..
What about some re-assembling skellie + bloodghast in combo with necrotic plague. The grave hoppers hold aggro back and can allow some pressure vs. MUC, MWC, U/W control. Manaleak my bloodghast? Here it comes again. DoJ my reassembling skellie? By then I can probably mind sludge you, but if i need it, i can keep nibbling away with skellies and ghasts.
The necrotic plague helps you start wiping the board vs. aggro, while actually provides removal for almost anything, including emrakul.
(Ruling question - I think I'm right, but let me ask - Emrakul would be protected from being the target of necrotic plague when I cast it, but when I'm putting it back into play attached to something, Emrakul is a legal target at that point, right?)
Anyway, just some food for thought. Would I rather simply pack in infest and chainer's edict? Hell yeah. But to paraphrase a semi-recent basketball coach, Infest and the edict aren't gonna come walking in through that door again.
I personally think that mono-black aggro might be more viable. Ultimately, it's a choice of emphasizing different elements of the color. In fact, it's pretty darn likely that some kind of mono-black midrange deck emerges to take advantage of everything. Right now, I see it as a definite possibility of some deck emerging to utilize the best of all the black creatures, these currently being Gatekeeper of Malakir, Bloodghast, Vampire Nighthawk, Phylactory Lich, and Abyssal Persecutor, along with Sign in Blood, Doom Blade, Duress, Infest, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Consuming Vapors, possibly with the addition of the new card, Dark Tutelage, and some good equipment like Sword of vengeance and Basilisk Collar.
A strong enough life gain element could easily counter Red's speed, the only problem being their new Leyline of no-lifegain-for-you.
Jund would be a problem with their access to cascade and creature redundancy, but you can deal with Vengevine with the black leyline, and Duress or Inquisition can make short work of a Blightning or Maelstrom Pulse. The same is true for Blue/White's Mana-Leak, DoJs, etc.
The only deck I'm not sure about is Turboland, but you can't win every match-up, and in fact this deck will likely lose a lot of match-ups against the other decks. All it will take to tell is time.
Not gonna' happen, for the same reason Mono White Control or even MUC won't happen. Mono colored decks in general (outside of RDW variants, because they're designed to win too quickly before anything their opponent does to really matter) have a tough time surviving in standard with such dedicated hate cards.
Additionally, black still lacks a good sweeper and the only MD-able spot removal it has that's worth a damn are overcosted and slow.
If you're dead set on playing black in a control fashion, play UB or Esper colored control. Otherwise, you'll be going home very early if you dare take a MBC deck to a big tournament.
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I don't know if we have all the cards we need yet, but yes, Grave Titan certainly got my MBC hopes up. He is awesome, not a demon, and feels like a solid win condition.
MBC isn't as far away from playability in the current standard as some people think. It has some favourable matchups, but in total it's just a tad too weak. As have been pointed out by others, what is missing is a Phyrexian Arena equivalent. Dark Tutelage just isn't good enough, even with Tendrils of Corruption it's going to cost you too much life too fast. Dark Tutelage might be playable in some BG deck where everything costs 1 or 2 (with Ad Nauseum?) but not in a control deck where too many cards cost 4-6 mana.
Good card advantage for black:
Sign in Blood (except vs RDW where life loss sucks)
Malakir Gatekeeper (except vs decks where the 2/2 body is irrelevant)
Consuming Vapors (except vs decks that plays Wall of Omens, Sprouting Thrinax, or can operate with just 1 creature)
There's a bit too many 'except' there for the deck to be good. I suppose a deck with Dark Tutelage, Tendrils AND Corrupt could be tested but doubt it's gonna work. The new finishers doesn't add much that MBC didn't already have.
I don't see how UW control could possibly win if you stick a T5 Mind Sludge. Wall of Denial? What is that going to do against Consuming Vapors, Gatekeeper of Malakir, and Fleshbag Marauder? They even hit Sphinx of Jwar Isle.
Spreading Seas against your swamp-based spells? Wow, so very effective. Now they hit for X-1. Totally hosed. *sarcasm*
Throw in a finisher that leaves a body around (2/2 zombie) even if it is removed, defeats Baneslayer Angel, and even Wall of Denial with deathtouch, and you have a pretty solid core.
Sure, we won't know how good or bad MBC really is until it sees play, but it has potential. I can definitely see it being better than vampires.dec, which, while it wasn't Tier 1, did post some results. I wouldn't call MBC a "giant red herring".
This is the kind of arrogance that bothers me terribly. Last time I checked, MBC hasn't posted ANY decent results. U/W is one of the best decks in standard.
I don't see how MBC can win when we stick an Iona. And you know, once m11 hits we could just leak your mind sludge and still slap down threats. Your hand will burn out before ours will.
I played MBC at the last PTQ near me (6/13) and ended up going 4 and 3. Every match that I faced Bant, or Next Level Bant, or Conscription I won hands down. Every match that I played Jund I lost. Not the best record out there but MBC can stand against some of the best decks out there, but right now it does not have the tools to deal with everything. Maybe some of the cards from M11 will fix that.
This is the kind of arrogance that bothers me terribly. Last time I checked, MBC hasn't posted ANY decent results. U/W is one of the best decks in standard.
I don't see how MBC can win when we stick an Iona. And you know, once m11 hits we could just leak your mind sludge and still slap down threats. Your hand will burn out before ours will.
I can play the arrogant game, too.
I liked this post until the bolded part. Someone took deck speculation personally, lol. I do think MBC will be viable when m11 comes out- after rotation? I don't know- but to those wanting a sweeper, Consume the Meek does really well at instant speed here.
This is the kind of arrogance that bothers me terribly. Last time I checked, MBC hasn't posted ANY decent results. U/W is one of the best decks in standard.
I don't see how MBC can win when we stick an Iona. And you know, once m11 hits we could just leak your mind sludge and still slap down threats. Your hand will burn out before ours will.
I can play the arrogant game, too.
I agree that MBC can not deal with every type of competitive deck out there but it doesn't have to worry about Iona as much anymore with cards like Brittle Effigy coming.
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I think this forum would be strictly better if people would stop trying to force the word strictly into discussions.
Between ZEN block and what M11 has given us, it seems that MBC could, in fact, become viable. We've got Sludge, Corrupt, Gatekeeper, Drana, Nantuko Shade, Vamp Nighthawk, Duress, All is Dust, Nirkana Revenant, Liliana, and a whole bunch more mean, nasty things.
I'm not going to say that it WILL be viable, but I wouldn't rule it out, either.
BTW, Mana Leak =/= Auto Win (for the record).
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"Keep a spirit of madness in you, just enough so you don't become stupid. Just a little touch of madness will keep you alive, because no one in the world knows how to tax that."
-Robin Williams, "Reality... What a Concept!"
Dark Tutelage can't afford MBC and there is no other way MBC will survive the inmense card advantage of UW and Jund, so no, just forget it, we need Torment-rate B-love to recreate MBC.
MBA, on the other hand seems more plausible, having three very good and cheap artifacts (collar, bell and prism) makes the lich viable, along with nantuko shade, black knight, hexmage, nighthawk, gatekeeper and bloodghast that's the most effective < 3cmc creature cast by far, and you can afford to go suicide with Tutelage and SiB with < 3cmc cards, something you just can't do with > 4 cards like that awful demon you want to use.
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M11 gave Mono Black Control some good tools. I think it is possible to come up with a viable Mono black control deck once m11 comes out. Lets come up with some deck ideas and try to make mono black control viable again in standard
I don't know if we have all the cards we need yet, but yes, Grave Titan certainly got my MBC hopes up. He is awesome, not a demon, and feels like a solid win condition.
*Crosses fingers for Phyrexian Arena*
-Day[9]
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Nirkana Revenant
4 Grave Titan
4 Sign in Blood
4 Consuming Vapors
4 Tendrils of Corruption
4 Mind Sludge
4 Corrupt
24 Swamps
There are still a lot of strong cards I didn't list either.
Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress, Sorin Markov, Vampire Nighthawk, Doom Blade, Smother, Nightmare, Malakir Bloodwitch, Urge to Feed, Infest, Consume Spirit, Bloodghast, Pulse Tracker, Vampire Lacerator, Gul Draz Vampire, Deathmark, and I probably missed a few as well.
Those are just some rough ideas, but it could work. The cards certainly look powerful anyway. I agree that MBC has a better chance after the rotation of Cascade. Sadly, it will lose Tendrils of Corruption...
As for "Why play MBC?": Tendrils of Corruption, Corrupt, consistent Gatekeeper of Malakir, Mind Sludge. Seriously, Mind Sludge reads "Target player discards their hand" in mono black. T4 Consuming Vapors, T5 Mind Sludge, GG? Also, I imagine MBC will be pretty cheap to build compared to any type of blue deck, unless some extremely expensive card will be released for it. The land base is definitely cheaper than nearly any other deck too.
Every single standard season (often multiple times in a season), someone notices a card that seems good and declares that "MBC is back!" Same with MUC, which I doubt any of the people who are abjectly terrified of its omnipresent shadow have ever actually played with or against.
It's not back, and it won't be coming back without card advantage. If Damnation and Korlash, Heir to Blackblade couldn't make black control viable (it ended up being a drastically worse version of U/B Teachings), then a bunch of playable finishers will not make it viable. Wrath of God basically only sees play in U/W control decks, and as long as the 4CMC sweeper costs 2WW, and its spot removal remains better, than U/W control will remain better than U/B control, which is still better than MBC.
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That is a silly excuse and you know it.
MBC didn't work in Time Spiral because it didn't have Phyrexian Arena or sufficient broad card quality across all the black in standard to deal with the current metagame. The only black card that Urborg really allowed people to play outside of MBC decks that was worth playing was Tendrils of Corruption. U/W control works right now because of Spreading Seas and Wall of Denial backed up by Day of Judgment to clog the board, not its flashy arsenal of walkers. Black needs cards like that, not a new (admittedly very cool) finisher.
- whhhhhaaat?
Standard Decks:
UBRGrixis ControlRBU
i like the way you think Jimbo. yes indeed.
seriously, the mono-swamps thing is such a giant red herring. its constantly luring inexperienced players into playing mono-black decks with bad mana bases. then they get all surprised and dissapointed when the deck is basically terrible. a slightly above average removal spell or discard spell isn't nearly enough reason to play something narrow, easily hosed, and lacking the right tools.
Wall of Denial? What is that going to do against Consuming Vapors, Gatekeeper of Malakir, and Fleshbag Marauder? They even hit Sphinx of Jwar Isle.
Spreading Seas against your swamp-based spells? Wow, so very effective. Now they hit for X-1. Totally hosed. *sarcasm*
Throw in a finisher that leaves a body around (2/2 zombie) even if it is removed, defeats Baneslayer Angel, and even Wall of Denial with deathtouch, and you have a pretty solid core.
Sure, we won't know how good or bad MBC really is until it sees play, but it has potential. I can definitely see it being better than vampires.dec, which, while it wasn't Tier 1, did post some results. I wouldn't call MBC a "giant red herring".
Corrupt does not in any way replace Tendrils. If you are tapping out on turn 6 just to kill ONE creature you are doing it very wrong. TEndrils was very key as it allowed you to one for one up until turn 4 (or even turn 2 SiB then T3 removal) and anything that slipped through you negated with a life swing and removal.
Let's not kid ourselves, Tendrils really helps MBC last until the turn 5 or 6 Mind Sludge. It's almost as essential as Coffers was back in INV/ODY/ONS.
So, allow me some slightly out-of-the-box thinking..
What about some re-assembling skellie + bloodghast in combo with necrotic plague. The grave hoppers hold aggro back and can allow some pressure vs. MUC, MWC, U/W control. Manaleak my bloodghast? Here it comes again. DoJ my reassembling skellie? By then I can probably mind sludge you, but if i need it, i can keep nibbling away with skellies and ghasts.
The necrotic plague helps you start wiping the board vs. aggro, while actually provides removal for almost anything, including emrakul.
(Ruling question - I think I'm right, but let me ask - Emrakul would be protected from being the target of necrotic plague when I cast it, but when I'm putting it back into play attached to something, Emrakul is a legal target at that point, right?)
Anyway, just some food for thought. Would I rather simply pack in infest and chainer's edict? Hell yeah. But to paraphrase a semi-recent basketball coach, Infest and the edict aren't gonna come walking in through that door again.
Thoughts?
A strong enough life gain element could easily counter Red's speed, the only problem being their new Leyline of no-lifegain-for-you.
Jund would be a problem with their access to cascade and creature redundancy, but you can deal with Vengevine with the black leyline, and Duress or Inquisition can make short work of a Blightning or Maelstrom Pulse. The same is true for Blue/White's Mana-Leak, DoJs, etc.
The only deck I'm not sure about is Turboland, but you can't win every match-up, and in fact this deck will likely lose a lot of match-ups against the other decks. All it will take to tell is time.
Additionally, black still lacks a good sweeper and the only MD-able spot removal it has that's worth a damn are overcosted and slow.
If you're dead set on playing black in a control fashion, play UB or Esper colored control. Otherwise, you'll be going home very early if you dare take a MBC deck to a big tournament.
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I think the closest wizards will go to Arena is Dark Tutelage the enchantment version of Bob.
Good card advantage for black:
Sign in Blood (except vs RDW where life loss sucks)
Malakir Gatekeeper (except vs decks where the 2/2 body is irrelevant)
Consuming Vapors (except vs decks that plays Wall of Omens, Sprouting Thrinax, or can operate with just 1 creature)
There's a bit too many 'except' there for the deck to be good. I suppose a deck with Dark Tutelage, Tendrils AND Corrupt could be tested but doubt it's gonna work. The new finishers doesn't add much that MBC didn't already have.
This is the kind of arrogance that bothers me terribly. Last time I checked, MBC hasn't posted ANY decent results. U/W is one of the best decks in standard.
I don't see how MBC can win when we stick an Iona. And you know, once m11 hits we could just leak your mind sludge and still slap down threats. Your hand will burn out before ours will.
I can play the arrogant game, too.
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
I liked this post until the bolded part. Someone took deck speculation personally, lol. I do think MBC will be viable when m11 comes out- after rotation? I don't know- but to those wanting a sweeper, Consume the Meek does really well at instant speed here.
I agree that MBC can not deal with every type of competitive deck out there but it doesn't have to worry about Iona as much anymore with cards like Brittle Effigy coming.
I'm not going to say that it WILL be viable, but I wouldn't rule it out, either.
BTW, Mana Leak =/= Auto Win (for the record).
-Robin Williams, "Reality... What a Concept!"
MBA, on the other hand seems more plausible, having three very good and cheap artifacts (collar, bell and prism) makes the lich viable, along with nantuko shade, black knight, hexmage, nighthawk, gatekeeper and bloodghast that's the most effective < 3cmc creature cast by far, and you can afford to go suicide with Tutelage and SiB with < 3cmc cards, something you just can't do with > 4 cards like that awful demon you want to use.