I think mostly likely is 'overextended' was one option wizards considered to replace extended with, and they chose doublestandard instead.
Agreed, I think the rumor about overextended exists because someone knew something was up with formats. Doublestandard is what we ended up with, instead of overextended.
This is entirely a problem of their own creation, though.
Well, only in the somewhat stretched sense that one set of people (almost none of whom work at Wizards any longer) implemented the Reserved List as a kneejerk reaction over a decade ago, a second set of people (quite likely Hasbro's legal department based on the info we have) undid the attempts to undo it, and now a third set of people (R&D/DCI) have to figure out how to deal with the fallout, but since all these people now work for or in the past have worked for WotC it's a problem of "WotC's" creation.
The more likely scenario is that Wizards attempts to gently send Legacy into the night by withdrawing high-level support in favor of Big Standard.
That doesn't make sense to me since Extended and Legacy were supported side-by-side before (and now "Old Extended" is gone) and some non-rotating format is needed.
Because it is certain that it will reach a breaking point and collapse within the near-to-mid-term-future and the only question is when, and if WotC are smart they'll get out ahead of that.
The rumored format preserves the most important quality that Legacy possesses (it doesn't rotate ever) while fixing its biggest problem (staples or near-staples that can never be reprinted and therefore are guaranteed to rise dramatically in price as more people try to play in the format.)
Because it is certain that it will reach a breaking point and collapse within the near-to-mid-term-future and the only question is when, and if WotC are smart they'll get out ahead of that.
The rumored format preserves the most important quality that Legacy possesses (it doesn't rotate ever) while fixing its biggest problem (staples or near-staples that can never be reprinted and therefore are guaranteed to rise dramatically in price as more people try to play in the format.)
This. Legacy is a wonderful format, but it will die the same way vintage did in a few years. I would love to play in a masques forward block, and if it was supported by wizards, that's probably all I would play. Well, that and cube.:tongue:
Possibilities:
a.) New rotating format. This does nothing, it will be the same as the Old Extended.
b.) They are do nothing with those blocks... Unfortunate but life sux.
c.) They create the rumored eternal format either by killing off Legacy support or they recreate Legacy like they did with Extended to be the rumored format from MM.
d.) Create the new format and let Legacy wither.
Legacy will wither regardless of the new format. So if I were Wizards, I would try to save an extremely popular format be revamping it so that it can continue to be supported. Think about it. If they're willing to save one of the least popular formats (extended) then why would they not try and a save a record setting one?
Having Big Standard be a constantly rotating format would turn these people off. "If my favorite deck is Faeries, why would I continue to be interested in Big Standard once Lorwyn block rotates? Sure, I can make something else, but it's not my favorite deck." People who think this way tend to be drawn towards the Eternal formats, which is why they exist. Nerfing them will make these players unhappy, because who wants to be the guy who plays a format no one else he knows plays?
Well, the theory is that people who sit around with Standard decks saying "I really like my Faeries deck" will be able to continue to play that deck mostly unchanged for another two years and, hopefully, these people will find a new pet deck to love that exists in Standard that they can adopt and play for another 2-3 years as it goes through Standard and then Extended.
I can believe that there is a group of people that find pet decks that they really like for a period of a few years, instead of just a few months (Standard exclusive) or forever (Eternal format), which would make them ideal candidates for the Standard - Extended treadmill. Once that Faeries deck (for example) rotates out of Extended, that player has been playing it for a number of years and enjoying that time, but they recognize that it is time to move on to another pet deck that they can love.
From time to time, I've even felt that way about specific decks, such as Reveillark-based decks, which I just really liked to play.
(for me Magic is not like stock market, but I don't like that it is more and more like a black hole).
Hilarious.
I don't see this going any other way than the MM forward format. Seeing what they've done to Extended, I'm really wondering if they would just change Legacy into this new format. I'm sure some would cry "Legacy in name only," but the alternative is just to let Legacy wither.
I'm sorry for Legacy players, but this is the fault of the reserve list and those that cried about FTV: Relics.
Reading through this thread, it seems that a lot of people do not understand the point of Legacy. Legacy has an important role in the game of Magic that should not and will not be eliminated. Legacy allows you to play with every card in the game with the exception of the most game destroying cards. It is very important for Legacy to exist to fill that role. Just to clarify: Legacy will not be redefined, except via single card updates to the banned list.
Next, it blows my mind to see how many people are declaring Legacy a dead format when it is still growing quickly and has become the second most popular constructed format for playing Magic. Legacy is succeeding, not failing. Legacy has been growing for years, and it has room for much more growth. That's a fact, and any one who says differently is flat out wrong. At this point, Legacy is not close to dying.
Will Legacy ever die? Maybe. Maybe not. No one is in a position to accurately predict that far ahead in the future. Any one who actually takes the time to examine the format, the requirements for playing at a high level, and the requirements for playing locally should be able to determine that the resources are there for many, many more players to join the game.
Addititionally, financial concerns are not the issue that many claim they are. People claim that high prices have killed Vintage. Those people are wrong on two levels. First, Vintage is not dead. And second, any decline in activity that Vintage has seen is not necessarily the result of rising costs. There are other factors at work as well, including the format warping errata of Time Vault and the rise in popularity of Legacy. Rising costs may have been a factor for some, but it seems clear that it was not the only - or even the largest - factor for any decrease that Vintage might have seen over the past few years.
Anyone calling Legacy a dead or dying format seems to be lacking enough information about the format to make any accurate statements about it. Please, investigate the format more closely before making any more statements of doom and gloom. I will be happy to debate and discuss details with anyone interested. But perhaps this is not the correct thread for that particular topic.
--Regarding all the statements above, I am sure. Regarding the statements below, I am less sure.--
Now, let me get slightly more on topic and discuss the rumored new format. First, I want to say that I am not opposed to a new format. I have looked at the evidence we have and do not believe that it indicates any other format will be created in the near future. To me the largest piece of evidence is the article posted with the B&R update, found here. It states that a new format was discussed but dismissed by WotC. I just don't see any clearer evidence than that. The primary evidence in support of the new format is a rumor from a member with a single post. The evidence is entirely lopsided against the new format. If I have missed any important details, please inform me.
That isn't to say you guys can't make a new format happen. Obviously, this has been generating a lot of buzz recently, and WotC is certainly listening. I don't think there was anything planned, but if people keep talking, it may become a reality.
@necrogenesis: While what you say about Legacy not being dead despite the public's perception is accurate, I believe it is irrelevant. Wether or not Legacy is dead, what I'm seeing here is that the majority of people (if you count this as an accurate sample of the playerbase... that point is up for debate) THINK Legacy is dead. Which means they're not going to play it, because of their misconceptions that it is
a.) too expensive to break into
or
b.) dying, and therefore not worth the effort to break into.
As such, I don't believe Legacy is likely to pick up a whole lot more players, regardless of wether or not it can support them. Often perception is far more important than the reality behind it. If no one wants to play the "dead" format, that makes it dead, wether it can support more people or not.
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"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Well, only in the somewhat stretched sense that one set of people (almost none of whom work at Wizards any longer) implemented the Reserved List as a kneejerk reaction over a decade ago, a second set of people (quite likely Hasbro's legal department based on the info we have) undid the attempts to undo it, and now a third set of people (R&D/DCI) have to figure out how to deal with the fallout, but since all these people now work for or in the past have worked for WotC it's a problem of "WotC's" creation.
Does the retarded list include functional reprints?
I think some mana-cost changes (more like adjusting, Commander Greven Il-Vec would be fair at 5cmc in the current meta), colour swapping, creature type change, making artifacts that mimic restricted enchantments or lands, etc. would be appreciated, tho of course this brings the problem of having 8 Bayous in Legacy...
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Yes sir, I take fantasy art and character design commissions, PM me for rates.
I'm a rather new player. A friend of mine got me hooked on the game right around the release of Zendikar. With that in mind, I think what they did to extended was a horrible, terrible thing. I loved extended the way it was. To me, there was nothing better than running my Sanity Grinding deck at my first ptq, and finishing mid-field (IMO not bad for a 3-4 month player). I was stoked. Now, after working my ass off to make Living End at the expense of my Grinding deck, to see it be essentially destroyed (a deck isn't worth playing in a format if it'll only live for 3 months, and out of season) it quite frankly makes me want to give up on the game. Standard isn't any fun to me simply because theres almost no room for innovation. Theres simply not enough cards, so its make the deck winning pro tours or get your ass kicked. I refuse to make the popular deck. The deck I run gets eaten alive by 1 card in Jund (Blightning) and I just can't seem to avoid it. I've stopped playing standard all together, and where I live now has no extended tournys. I want to punch a baby after seeing what they did to extended. To be on topic, do I think from what I've read that there will be another format? Not right now. If I were to guess, it'll be about this time next year, once wizards sees sales from about 3 years worth of cards become nonexistent. Then, I think they'll announce the rumored "overextended" to be a non-rotating format from about Mirrodin on. I honestly loved that fact that it rotated, simply because it forces innovation from players. You have to be able to build good decks consistently to be good. I think thats what being a good player is all about
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They say I'm a mill whore. I disagree. I just like pissing people off
If the new extended format does well and Legacy remains relatively fine, this rumored format may go the way of the 6th color. We won't be seeing the result of either for a long time.
Necrogenesis: I understand that you are less sure on the second part of your post, as you said, so I do not mean to be too critical in my assessment of this stance, and all those like it. In the first place, your analysis of Legacy is a good one. It is not dying, not shrinking, and is quite important for the health of Magic as a game for players. Nowhere else can players, as you said, use every card in Magic's history except for the least fun ones (the fatal flaw of Vintage).
To me the largest piece of evidence is the article posted with the B&R update, found here. It states that a new format was discussed but dismissed by WotC. I just don't see any clearer evidence than that.
This "Evidence" is being taken out of context, and is being used to represent an argument that it actually does not fully support. In the article in question (Pop Quiz with Trick Questions, David-Marshall: link in the post above), DM says the following about "making a new format".
"According to DCI Program Manager—and regular The Week That Was interview subject—Scott Larabee, there was some talk about creating something they called Double Standard to exist in between Extended and Standard. They quickly realized, however, that something else needed to happen once they looked at the attendance numbers and frequency of Extended events over the past few years.
"It became clear that instead of creating a third format—Double Standard—let's fix the one we have," said Scott. "One of the things we noticed was that the Extended format was not doing very well. The Pro Tour Qualifier round we run every year in Extended is the lowest attended, it does not do very well on Magic Online, and that when we are not making people play Extended there is less Extended being run than Legacy."
I have bolded specific parts of the quote that Necrogenesis references in his own post. Looking at these parts, we see exactly what DM is saying, and we see that it is not what some people on this thread would have us believe.
The "New format" that DM discusses in his article is specifically "Double-Standard". It is not "Over-Extended" or "Legacy Lite", nor does it have any relation whatsoever to these hypothetical formats. DM is specifically focusing on a fix to the current Extended format. While people discussed making a new format to replace or supplement Extended, DM notes that the real problem was just in the format itself. Fix the problem and you fix the format; that's the gist of these quotes.
So does it have any bearing on Over Extended/Legacy Lite? It seems quite clearly that the answer is no. This quote is entirely focused on Extended and its problems, and all "new format" ideas thrown around were in regards to this format and to "Double Standard". By no means does he exclude Over Extended or any other Legacy-esque formats. In fact, he might be actively encouraging (light) speculation. He criticizes Legacy and its lack of Duals, its overwhelming card pool, and its high transition costs. This does not by any means hint at a new format directly. But it does hint at problems with Legacy, at least problems that Wizards has with the format. And we know that they have problems with this format that makes them no money and takes up a lot of players.
The primary evidence in support of the new format is a rumor from a member with a single post. The evidence is entirely lopsided against the new format. If I have missed any important details, please inform me.
Aaron Forsythe, or perhaps Randy Buelher, posted on his twitter page shortly after the rumor was posted "Can't comment on rumors, but any discussion or mail is appreciated." Something to that effect; I cannot remember exactly. But he did not denounce the rumor on the spot. The fact that he responded to it AT ALL (and how often does Wizards acknowledge rumors?) is an important point. At the very least Wizards is considering these rumors. At most, they are spoiling their plans. I am not saying that anyone in this thread, Necrogenesis especially, does not acknowledge the possibility of Wizards' endorsing or making a new format.
That isn't to say you guys can't make a new format happen. Obviously, this has been generating a lot of buzz recently, and WotC is certainly listening. I don't think there was anything planned, but if people keep talking, it may become a reality.
To me, this is the bottom line. Even if Wizards did not like the idea of a new format and were madly in love with Legacy (neither of which are true), enough player response might get them to change their minds. Given that a pretty decent number of players on forums have responded positively to the idea, they are definitely listening and reading. The format CAN become a reality with support from players like us. Yes, there are a lot of other players not represented on forums, but Wizards certainly listens to the vocal internet-posters before others.
The main reason I can believe there will be a new format is I can't understand why would they just throw out one of the most popular blocks in Magic's history namely Ravnica (even some members of R&D talked about it like it was the Holy Grail or something).
Ravnica was always going to rotate. It just happened sooner, rather than later.
To me the fact the poster of the rumor has only 1 post is not relevant because everyone would do the same. No one wants to be sued.
This is a valid point, and I noticed some of the mods started acting like they were sure the guy was telling the truth. That's confusing to me, because the mods can view information about the guy that I can't. So they may have some evidence that none of the rest of us can see. That's why I'm not 100% sure either way, and still very willing to admit I might be wrong.
Still, I can't figure out why the new format wasn't announced Friday, if it were going to be announced at all. It's definitely going to have a Banned list (Skullclamp at least), so Friday would have been the time to update it. I don't think they would wait until Monday or next Friday.
My guess is that if we see a new format (and I don't think we will), it will happen on March 20 next year, to allow WotC to judge the success of the new Extended.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
This is a valid point, and I noticed some of the mods started acting like they were sure the guy was telling the truth. That's confusing to me, because the mods can view information about the guy that I can't. So they may have some evidence that none of the rest of us can see. That's why I'm not 100% sure either way, and still very willing to admit I might be wrong.
One of the main pieces of evidence that I think is often overlooked is the quality of the post. Unlike most 1st time posters on this forum, EldraziSpy wrote an unusually clear, lucid, and well-written post. He included a lot more information than most rumormongers would think to add into a fake post: Wizards' motivations, format rules, a proposed PTQ schedule, etc. For reference to those who don't remember, or haven't seen, the post, here it is: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5235896#post5235896
If this were a normal rumormonger that we encounter on these forums, we would expect something like "NEW FORMAT COMING. Next year. It's gonna happen." Or something vague and poorly written to that effect. EldraziSpy did not do that.
Still, I can't figure out why the new format wasn't announced Friday, if it were going to be announced at all. It's definitely going to have a Banned list (Skullclamp at least), so Friday would have been the time to update it. I don't think they would wait until Monday or next Friday.
1. EldraziSpy (who of course might be lying) said that the format would be announced "later this year". That could mean now, but it also could mean October. Given that a new base set comes out in October (Scars), this seems an equally likely announcement date.
2. If Wizards wanted to prioritize their announcements, then the Extended one would be a logical first step instead of the sweeping Over-Extended possibility. Why announce Double Standard AFTER Over-Extended? Most players would probably be far more excited about the latter, and the former might lose attendance. But if they announce Double Standard first, then the format will have a few more months to take root, which is enough time to establish a base for it if Wizards chooses to stir up the waters again with an Over Extended announcement.
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Ktkenshinx do you think an on-line petition for the introduction of Over-Extended would be a stupid thing? Because I know lot of players who would like to play that format but they don't post on forums.
I have found that online petitions are pretty useless in doing anything. This is especially true if players want a new format this year; if Wizards plans on doing it, they will do so without a petition. If they don't plan on releasing Over Extended this year, then a petition won't change their minds.
The best way to get Wizards to listen is intelligent letters. When intelligent and dedicated members of the Magic community talk to Wizards, they listen. There are many examples of this, from the contributions of Stephen Menendian to those of Evan Erwin. Wizards cares about its players, especially those that take the time to compose arguments and present evidence and ideas in written form.
Thus, the best way to get Wizards to listen to Over Extended desires is through letters. If people want to get the format up and running (if not this year then next), voicing this in appropriately researched and written emails is a good way to do that. And of course, forum participation helps a lot.
Although I have some Legacy staples cards, I would support this format and likely abandon Legacy. I think WotC wants an eternal format with modern card design, decent game pacing (i.e. reduced chances for a win in 2 turns or less), and more creature combat. Legacy still contains cards too efficient for WotC's comfort for the game as a whole, even if most Legacy cards are not broken.
The problem they missed entirely is that a standard deck costs $600 and a Legacy Deck costs $1200 so I can trade off my standard cards that are going to tank after rotation for Legacy stuff and after a couple seasons I'm good to go.
Extended was designed to soften the blow of those cards rotating by letting you play them for a few more seasons but since standard is so expensive people don't have the money to invest in another format.
The only way this new extended is going to succede is if it starts getting FNM play.
Although I have some Legacy staples cards, I would support this format and likely abandon Legacy. I think WotC wants an eternal format with modern card design, decent game pacing (i.e. reduced chances for a win in 2 turns or less), and more creature combat. Legacy still contains cards too efficient for WotC's comfort for the game as a whole, even if most Legacy cards are not broken.
If they start this at IPA rather than Masques I'll be all over it. I'm not as excited about a format with Masques in it.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
The new Super-Standard and Masques+ formats I think will be better for what Wizards is trying to do in the long run (if this new eternal format is real) - keep new players playing without having to delve into the deepest recesses of magic history to make a deck and to keep some of the more busted-stuff out. The new rumored eternal format I think would be better in the long run since Masques to now is a lot easier to manage and still gives a deep enough pool to play with and maintain variety.
Extended, meanwhile, has always been in Legacy's shadow, essentially just a watered-down version of it, so I guess rather than keep it that way they pushed it closer to the more widely-played Standard. That makes sense since most people begin in Standard and then drift into other formats if they grow tired of the fast-pace. The new Extended is basically one step up from it and makes for a smoother transition. Meanwhile, the new proposed eternal format moves more smoothly from Extended, and the two formats I think will have more identity. Vintage will still be around, and different enough from the new Eternal format that it might also have more individual identity, rather than competing with Legacy for players. Vintage will have it all, new Eternal has Masques+, new Extended has 4 active expansions and a core set, and Standard will continue on as it has since the last change.
If this is how it will work out, then I think it will be healthy for the game, and I definitely would be more willing to play the new Eternal over Legacy.
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Decks
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite) Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks) Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks) Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
The only way this new extended is going to succede is if it starts getting FNM play.
This is key. A new Overextended needs Wizards support. They cannot create the format and not have FNM prize support. As it stands, FNM in my area is Standard, which I don't play.
If they start this at IPA rather than Masques I'll be all over it. I'm not as excited about a format with Masques in it.
You're not the only one that has mentioned preferring to start the format at Invasion. What is wrong with the set that could not be banned away by the DCI?
I have found that online petitions are pretty useless in doing anything. This is especially true if players want a new format this year; if Wizards plans on doing it, they will do so without a petition. If they don't plan on releasing Over Extended this year, then a petition won't change their minds.
The best way to get Wizards to listen is intelligent letters. When intelligent and dedicated members of the Magic community talk to Wizards, they listen. There are many examples of this, from the contributions of Stephen Menendian to those of Evan Erwin. Wizards cares about its players, especially those that take the time to compose arguments and present evidence and ideas in written form.
Thus, the best way to get Wizards to listen to Over Extended desires is through letters. If people want to get the format up and running (if not this year then next), voicing this in appropriately researched and written emails is a good way to do that. And of course, forum participation helps a lot.
I agree with this on both points.
There is an additional way to get them to add this format, even if the rumor was a hoax: play it.
Get a group of people and decide on exact rules and a B/R list. Set up a website with the rules to promote it. Hold unsanctioned events. Write tournament reports on these events and about the metagame. Adjust the B/R list as necessary. Run informal unsanctioned events at major tournaments.
If they start this at IPA rather than Masques I'll be all over it. I'm not as excited about a format with Masques in it.
Why not? The format can only be made better by the inclusion of an additional block, and going back any further would just be a hassle because it would involve needing to expand any banned list that will exist because of the numerous cards in Urza Block that would need to not be legal. Masque is a great safety point, as it is a relatively low-power block, but contains some key power cards (Rishadan Port) and key answers (Unmask, Misdirection) that are unlikely to disrupt the format. It also means that Dark Ritual and Brainstorm are legal, meaning combo can exist without being dominant, because of the quality of disruption that exists across the breadth of the format.
Masques Block cards that make me want to play this format are Rishadan Port, Unmask, Tectonic Break, Parallax Tide and Parallax Wave, Saproling Burst, Blastoderm, Lin-Sivvi and a host more. For a set that is so despised there is an abundance of good cards to plot decks around, and being able to play a format that does not require original Dual Lands but has the card pool for old-school Fires to be legal tickles my fancy. I think the existence of Standard, the new Extended and this concept format being supported by Wizards is a great idea. I do not think that its existence would be harmful to Legacy in anyway, as the biggest Legacy players and supporters will continue to see the format thrive for the betterment of all Magic players. Same goes for Vintage.
There are only 2 likely scenarios that will play out here.
1) OverExtended was just a rumored fix to a dying Extended. the Real fix was Standard++. OverExtended will never come to pass and Legacy becomes the new Extended as the Rising Prices of Staples turn it into Vintage minus Mox.
2) OverExtended is Introduced as a Replacement to VINTAGE, a format nobody plays anyway because nobody want's to devalue their $5600 Power 9 Set by playing them, This leaves Wizards with standard and Standard++ as their main constructed formats, but also gives players 2 eternal formats to play in, one is sustainable, staples can be reprinted by wizards when they want to, it'll make it easier for the the players that Standard++ was actually designed for to get into eventually. The other (Legacy) might actually stabilize as it's no longer the dumping ground for players who want to walk their pet first decks though it's post-standard life.
I do agree that Wizards needs to allow TO's to better support the formats that aren't Standard or Limited. Right now us TO's can only sanction FNM Events if they're Standard or Limited (or 2hg variants). If they opened us up to Block and Extended I'm sure wizards would likely find that these formats would become more popular.
Let me get this straight. Is everyone here suggesting that this new format, super-extended will be taking the place of Legacy? If it is that is just gonna blow, hard! Please someone, give me some feedback on this.
Let me get this straight. Is everyone here suggesting that this new format, super-extended will be taking the place of Legacy? If it is that is just gonna blow, hard! Please someone, give me some feedback on this.
The majority believe OverExtended format, if it comes to fruition, will replace Legacy or Vintage as a WotC-sanctioned, WotC-supported eternal format.
Legacy and Vintage may be legal DCI tournament formats, but WotC themselves have had few sanctioned tournaments of either.
The majority believe OverExtended format, if it comes to fruition, will replace Legacy or Vintage as a WotC-sanctioned, WotC-supported eternal format.
Legacy and Vintage may be legal DCI tournament formats, but WotC themselves have had few sanctioned tournaments of either.
This sir, is crap. I am in the process of building a Legacy deck that is costing me a pretty penny, if this happens, I just might have to quite Magic for the second time.:o
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Agreed, I think the rumor about overextended exists because someone knew something was up with formats. Doublestandard is what we ended up with, instead of overextended.
Well, only in the somewhat stretched sense that one set of people (almost none of whom work at Wizards any longer) implemented the Reserved List as a kneejerk reaction over a decade ago, a second set of people (quite likely Hasbro's legal department based on the info we have) undid the attempts to undo it, and now a third set of people (R&D/DCI) have to figure out how to deal with the fallout, but since all these people now work for or in the past have worked for WotC it's a problem of "WotC's" creation.
That doesn't make sense to me since Extended and Legacy were supported side-by-side before (and now "Old Extended" is gone) and some non-rotating format is needed.
Because it is certain that it will reach a breaking point and collapse within the near-to-mid-term-future and the only question is when, and if WotC are smart they'll get out ahead of that.
The rumored format preserves the most important quality that Legacy possesses (it doesn't rotate ever) while fixing its biggest problem (staples or near-staples that can never be reprinted and therefore are guaranteed to rise dramatically in price as more people try to play in the format.)
This. Legacy is a wonderful format, but it will die the same way vintage did in a few years. I would love to play in a masques forward block, and if it was supported by wizards, that's probably all I would play. Well, that and cube.:tongue:
Legacy will wither regardless of the new format. So if I were Wizards, I would try to save an extremely popular format be revamping it so that it can continue to be supported. Think about it. If they're willing to save one of the least popular formats (extended) then why would they not try and a save a record setting one?
Well, the theory is that people who sit around with Standard decks saying "I really like my Faeries deck" will be able to continue to play that deck mostly unchanged for another two years and, hopefully, these people will find a new pet deck to love that exists in Standard that they can adopt and play for another 2-3 years as it goes through Standard and then Extended.
I can believe that there is a group of people that find pet decks that they really like for a period of a few years, instead of just a few months (Standard exclusive) or forever (Eternal format), which would make them ideal candidates for the Standard - Extended treadmill. Once that Faeries deck (for example) rotates out of Extended, that player has been playing it for a number of years and enjoying that time, but they recognize that it is time to move on to another pet deck that they can love.
From time to time, I've even felt that way about specific decks, such as Reveillark-based decks, which I just really liked to play.
Hilarious.
I don't see this going any other way than the MM forward format. Seeing what they've done to Extended, I'm really wondering if they would just change Legacy into this new format. I'm sure some would cry "Legacy in name only," but the alternative is just to let Legacy wither.
I'm sorry for Legacy players, but this is the fault of the reserve list and those that cried about FTV: Relics.
Next, it blows my mind to see how many people are declaring Legacy a dead format when it is still growing quickly and has become the second most popular constructed format for playing Magic. Legacy is succeeding, not failing. Legacy has been growing for years, and it has room for much more growth. That's a fact, and any one who says differently is flat out wrong. At this point, Legacy is not close to dying.
Will Legacy ever die? Maybe. Maybe not. No one is in a position to accurately predict that far ahead in the future. Any one who actually takes the time to examine the format, the requirements for playing at a high level, and the requirements for playing locally should be able to determine that the resources are there for many, many more players to join the game.
Addititionally, financial concerns are not the issue that many claim they are. People claim that high prices have killed Vintage. Those people are wrong on two levels. First, Vintage is not dead. And second, any decline in activity that Vintage has seen is not necessarily the result of rising costs. There are other factors at work as well, including the format warping errata of Time Vault and the rise in popularity of Legacy. Rising costs may have been a factor for some, but it seems clear that it was not the only - or even the largest - factor for any decrease that Vintage might have seen over the past few years.
Anyone calling Legacy a dead or dying format seems to be lacking enough information about the format to make any accurate statements about it. Please, investigate the format more closely before making any more statements of doom and gloom. I will be happy to debate and discuss details with anyone interested. But perhaps this is not the correct thread for that particular topic.
--Regarding all the statements above, I am sure. Regarding the statements below, I am less sure.--
Now, let me get slightly more on topic and discuss the rumored new format. First, I want to say that I am not opposed to a new format. I have looked at the evidence we have and do not believe that it indicates any other format will be created in the near future. To me the largest piece of evidence is the article posted with the B&R update, found here. It states that a new format was discussed but dismissed by WotC. I just don't see any clearer evidence than that. The primary evidence in support of the new format is a rumor from a member with a single post. The evidence is entirely lopsided against the new format. If I have missed any important details, please inform me.
That isn't to say you guys can't make a new format happen. Obviously, this has been generating a lot of buzz recently, and WotC is certainly listening. I don't think there was anything planned, but if people keep talking, it may become a reality.
a.) too expensive to break into
or
b.) dying, and therefore not worth the effort to break into.
As such, I don't believe Legacy is likely to pick up a whole lot more players, regardless of wether or not it can support them. Often perception is far more important than the reality behind it. If no one wants to play the "dead" format, that makes it dead, wether it can support more people or not.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Does the retarded list include functional reprints?
I think some mana-cost changes (more like adjusting, Commander Greven Il-Vec would be fair at 5cmc in the current meta), colour swapping, creature type change, making artifacts that mimic restricted enchantments or lands, etc. would be appreciated, tho of course this brings the problem of having 8 Bayous in Legacy...
My Trade
But then there is the rumored New Format...
This "Evidence" is being taken out of context, and is being used to represent an argument that it actually does not fully support. In the article in question (Pop Quiz with Trick Questions, David-Marshall: link in the post above), DM says the following about "making a new format".
I have bolded specific parts of the quote that Necrogenesis references in his own post. Looking at these parts, we see exactly what DM is saying, and we see that it is not what some people on this thread would have us believe.
The "New format" that DM discusses in his article is specifically "Double-Standard". It is not "Over-Extended" or "Legacy Lite", nor does it have any relation whatsoever to these hypothetical formats. DM is specifically focusing on a fix to the current Extended format. While people discussed making a new format to replace or supplement Extended, DM notes that the real problem was just in the format itself. Fix the problem and you fix the format; that's the gist of these quotes.
So does it have any bearing on Over Extended/Legacy Lite? It seems quite clearly that the answer is no. This quote is entirely focused on Extended and its problems, and all "new format" ideas thrown around were in regards to this format and to "Double Standard". By no means does he exclude Over Extended or any other Legacy-esque formats. In fact, he might be actively encouraging (light) speculation. He criticizes Legacy and its lack of Duals, its overwhelming card pool, and its high transition costs. This does not by any means hint at a new format directly. But it does hint at problems with Legacy, at least problems that Wizards has with the format. And we know that they have problems with this format that makes them no money and takes up a lot of players.
Aaron Forsythe, or perhaps Randy Buelher, posted on his twitter page shortly after the rumor was posted "Can't comment on rumors, but any discussion or mail is appreciated." Something to that effect; I cannot remember exactly. But he did not denounce the rumor on the spot. The fact that he responded to it AT ALL (and how often does Wizards acknowledge rumors?) is an important point. At the very least Wizards is considering these rumors. At most, they are spoiling their plans. I am not saying that anyone in this thread, Necrogenesis especially, does not acknowledge the possibility of Wizards' endorsing or making a new format.
To me, this is the bottom line. Even if Wizards did not like the idea of a new format and were madly in love with Legacy (neither of which are true), enough player response might get them to change their minds. Given that a pretty decent number of players on forums have responded positively to the idea, they are definitely listening and reading. The format CAN become a reality with support from players like us. Yes, there are a lot of other players not represented on forums, but Wizards certainly listens to the vocal internet-posters before others.
-ktkenshinx-
Ravnica was always going to rotate. It just happened sooner, rather than later.
This is a valid point, and I noticed some of the mods started acting like they were sure the guy was telling the truth. That's confusing to me, because the mods can view information about the guy that I can't. So they may have some evidence that none of the rest of us can see. That's why I'm not 100% sure either way, and still very willing to admit I might be wrong.
Still, I can't figure out why the new format wasn't announced Friday, if it were going to be announced at all. It's definitely going to have a Banned list (Skullclamp at least), so Friday would have been the time to update it. I don't think they would wait until Monday or next Friday.
One of the main pieces of evidence that I think is often overlooked is the quality of the post. Unlike most 1st time posters on this forum, EldraziSpy wrote an unusually clear, lucid, and well-written post. He included a lot more information than most rumormongers would think to add into a fake post: Wizards' motivations, format rules, a proposed PTQ schedule, etc. For reference to those who don't remember, or haven't seen, the post, here it is:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5235896#post5235896
If this were a normal rumormonger that we encounter on these forums, we would expect something like "NEW FORMAT COMING. Next year. It's gonna happen." Or something vague and poorly written to that effect. EldraziSpy did not do that.
1. EldraziSpy (who of course might be lying) said that the format would be announced "later this year". That could mean now, but it also could mean October. Given that a new base set comes out in October (Scars), this seems an equally likely announcement date.
2. If Wizards wanted to prioritize their announcements, then the Extended one would be a logical first step instead of the sweeping Over-Extended possibility. Why announce Double Standard AFTER Over-Extended? Most players would probably be far more excited about the latter, and the former might lose attendance. But if they announce Double Standard first, then the format will have a few more months to take root, which is enough time to establish a base for it if Wizards chooses to stir up the waters again with an Over Extended announcement.
I have found that online petitions are pretty useless in doing anything. This is especially true if players want a new format this year; if Wizards plans on doing it, they will do so without a petition. If they don't plan on releasing Over Extended this year, then a petition won't change their minds.
The best way to get Wizards to listen is intelligent letters. When intelligent and dedicated members of the Magic community talk to Wizards, they listen. There are many examples of this, from the contributions of Stephen Menendian to those of Evan Erwin. Wizards cares about its players, especially those that take the time to compose arguments and present evidence and ideas in written form.
Thus, the best way to get Wizards to listen to Over Extended desires is through letters. If people want to get the format up and running (if not this year then next), voicing this in appropriately researched and written emails is a good way to do that. And of course, forum participation helps a lot.
-ktkenshinx-
Extended was designed to soften the blow of those cards rotating by letting you play them for a few more seasons but since standard is so expensive people don't have the money to invest in another format.
The only way this new extended is going to succede is if it starts getting FNM play.
If they start this at IPA rather than Masques I'll be all over it. I'm not as excited about a format with Masques in it.
Extended, meanwhile, has always been in Legacy's shadow, essentially just a watered-down version of it, so I guess rather than keep it that way they pushed it closer to the more widely-played Standard. That makes sense since most people begin in Standard and then drift into other formats if they grow tired of the fast-pace. The new Extended is basically one step up from it and makes for a smoother transition. Meanwhile, the new proposed eternal format moves more smoothly from Extended, and the two formats I think will have more identity. Vintage will still be around, and different enough from the new Eternal format that it might also have more individual identity, rather than competing with Legacy for players. Vintage will have it all, new Eternal has Masques+, new Extended has 4 active expansions and a core set, and Standard will continue on as it has since the last change.
If this is how it will work out, then I think it will be healthy for the game, and I definitely would be more willing to play the new Eternal over Legacy.
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite)
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks)
Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks)
Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
Standard
Waiting for Innistrad...
Extended
Hah!
Modern
Living End Cascade (RGB)
Legacy
Burn
Vintage
None
Casual
WB Aggro-Control
Green Stompy
Pink Floyd (UWr Wall Control)
Lunch Box (Fatty ramp)
D-Bag (White Control)
Level 13 Task Mage
This is key. A new Overextended needs Wizards support. They cannot create the format and not have FNM prize support. As it stands, FNM in my area is Standard, which I don't play.
You're not the only one that has mentioned preferring to start the format at Invasion. What is wrong with the set that could not be banned away by the DCI?
I agree with this on both points.
There is an additional way to get them to add this format, even if the rumor was a hoax: play it.
Get a group of people and decide on exact rules and a B/R list. Set up a website with the rules to promote it. Hold unsanctioned events. Write tournament reports on these events and about the metagame. Adjust the B/R list as necessary. Run informal unsanctioned events at major tournaments.
That's how EDH got to where it is today.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Why not? The format can only be made better by the inclusion of an additional block, and going back any further would just be a hassle because it would involve needing to expand any banned list that will exist because of the numerous cards in Urza Block that would need to not be legal. Masque is a great safety point, as it is a relatively low-power block, but contains some key power cards (Rishadan Port) and key answers (Unmask, Misdirection) that are unlikely to disrupt the format. It also means that Dark Ritual and Brainstorm are legal, meaning combo can exist without being dominant, because of the quality of disruption that exists across the breadth of the format.
Masques Block cards that make me want to play this format are Rishadan Port, Unmask, Tectonic Break, Parallax Tide and Parallax Wave, Saproling Burst, Blastoderm, Lin-Sivvi and a host more. For a set that is so despised there is an abundance of good cards to plot decks around, and being able to play a format that does not require original Dual Lands but has the card pool for old-school Fires to be legal tickles my fancy. I think the existence of Standard, the new Extended and this concept format being supported by Wizards is a great idea. I do not think that its existence would be harmful to Legacy in anyway, as the biggest Legacy players and supporters will continue to see the format thrive for the betterment of all Magic players. Same goes for Vintage.
1) OverExtended was just a rumored fix to a dying Extended. the Real fix was Standard++. OverExtended will never come to pass and Legacy becomes the new Extended as the Rising Prices of Staples turn it into Vintage minus Mox.
2) OverExtended is Introduced as a Replacement to VINTAGE, a format nobody plays anyway because nobody want's to devalue their $5600 Power 9 Set by playing them, This leaves Wizards with standard and Standard++ as their main constructed formats, but also gives players 2 eternal formats to play in, one is sustainable, staples can be reprinted by wizards when they want to, it'll make it easier for the the players that Standard++ was actually designed for to get into eventually. The other (Legacy) might actually stabilize as it's no longer the dumping ground for players who want to walk their pet first decks though it's post-standard life.
I do agree that Wizards needs to allow TO's to better support the formats that aren't Standard or Limited. Right now us TO's can only sanction FNM Events if they're Standard or Limited (or 2hg variants). If they opened us up to Block and Extended I'm sure wizards would likely find that these formats would become more popular.
The majority believe OverExtended format, if it comes to fruition, will replace Legacy or Vintage as a WotC-sanctioned, WotC-supported eternal format.
Legacy and Vintage may be legal DCI tournament formats, but WotC themselves have had few sanctioned tournaments of either.
This sir, is crap. I am in the process of building a Legacy deck that is costing me a pretty penny, if this happens, I just might have to quite Magic for the second time.:o