I remember the night clearly...The game store had just closed and I was walking to my car when two guys in my playgroup ran up the street to me very excited like they had just won the lottery or something. Apparently someone called them to tell them Gush had been unrestricted again, and they were just so damn happy they had to run up and tell me right then and there. This one guy, I had never seen him smile so much in my life. I didnt really get what the big deal was because Im not a huge vintage player, but I'll tell you this: there are people out there that care about vintage, and they care about it a lot.
Gush in Legacy has nowhere near the support it has in Vintage.
Is still does stupid stuff. Example:
You target my underground sea with wasteland. I gush in response bouncing my underground sea back to my hand. I just drew cards all at the low cost of protecting my land and making you lose yours..Do you not see anything wrong with this ?
Punishing Fire is the more problematic of the 2 card combo, with Fire, Grove will most likely not see a whole lot of play. Snapcaster hasn't been a huge problem, yet, but with the amount of flashbackable stuff in Modern I doubt wizards will let it see more then one PTQ season if any at all. Also anyone that thinks Jace or Bitterblossom are ever getting off the banned list, your living in Magical Christmas Land. Wizards stated multiple times that Jace was a horrible mistake on there part, that's why it dominated standard the way it did and forced itself to be banned in the first place. Having played with it in Standard first hand and getting the chance to Brainstorm with one 6 times in the same game, that's a problem. Now granted with a format that also includes Bloodbraid Elf, Jace may not be the problem it was in Standard, but in general free library manipulation is a huge issue. Plus it makes Deceiver deck way more consistent, the whole reason Ponder & Preordain were banned. Bitterblossom will never get off because it makes free 1/1's way to early. Also the only way Stoneforge gets unbanned in Modern is if wizards bans Batterskull and possibly every sword in the cycle. Something they would never do. Aether Vial may also get the axe in Modern, it hasn't been a problem just yet, but the best thing about Stoneforge was the ability to cheat stuff in, something Vial does a bit to well in control decks.
You target my underground sea with wasteland. I gush in response bouncing my underground sea back to my hand. I just drew cards all at the low cost of protecting my land and making you lose yours..Do you not see anything wrong with this ?
The only good thing about this post is the edible chocolate roaches they gave out! Mmm mmm!
*crawl crawl*
Wait a minute, edible roaches don't crawl! EDIBLE ROACHES DON'T CRAWL!
That's just not true. Considering how fast Modern is, you'll be dead sometime between the turn before and the turn after Visions finally resolves. Even in Standard (obviously a much slower format) this was not an auto-4-of, and that's in the time of Faeries!
I stated that it reads "If this resolves, you win the game." Every deck which could feasibly play this card suddenly would, and would alter their decks accordingly to give themselves the absolute best shot at resolving this spell. Yes, if you threw this card in RIGHT NOW to the exact same decklists people are slinging, then sure it would not work that well. The problem is that people will adapt their decks to force this card through. It is a format-warping card that I am glad is not available in the card-pool right now. People who say "Oh it's really not that bad" are deluding themselves.
If it resolves for you, you will likely win the game based on that fact alone. The game will drag out a few turns more, but the fact is that you just won the game due to a 1 mana spell.
If it resolves against you, you will likely lose the game based on that fact alone. The game will drag out a few turns more, but the fact is that you just lost the game to a 1 mana spell.
Is Channel that powerfull? I don't know if I'm underestimating the card, but It needs at least 3 mana to cast it (2 of them must be green and you need to have an ''opened'' mana source). Show and Tell's mana cost is much easier to pay (Ancient Tomb) Channel also cost you between 12-15 lifes!! Show and Tell may give some advantage to the oponent (Goblin Ringleader, Tombstalker) but it won't make you so vulnerable to aggro decks...
Imagine a deck with both Channel and Show and tell available for turn 2 emrakul. Why have any other plan? That seems like a dominating deck, considering it could play the normal blue control shell, and have its wincon be 2 mana. Additionally, the opponent has no opportunity to drop anything into play to counter the show and tell (i.e. Karakas) this is just from the interaction with one card.
Is Channel that powerfull? I don't know if I'm underestimating the card, but It needs at least 3 mana to cast it (2 of them must be green and you need to have an ''opened'' mana source). Show and Tell's mana cost is much easier to pay (Ancient Tomb) Channel also cost you between 12-15 lifes!! Show and Tell may give some advantage to the oponent (Goblin Ringleader, Tombstalker) but it won't make you so vulnerable to aggro decks...
I'm not sure what you're talking about with needing another "opened" mana source? What does that even mean?
Anyway, basically the way it goes is that you would make a deck of acceleration, emrakul and channel, at the most basic level of abusing channel. Do something like go Land Grant getting forest, chrome mox exiling a green card (or elvish spirit guide, or lotus petal), channel paying your two green mana, pay 15 life, get an emrakul.
You could fiddle with it putting in more protection and such, but the effect is the same, it can do similar things to Show and Tell with much less downside, it can also do similar things to all the mana ramp in a Goblin Charbelcher and it does it all a turn earlier than Show and Tell. Show and Tell is already right on the edge of how good a 2 card combo card should be in legacy, so I don't think a better version of a similar effect is a very good idea.
Is Channel that powerfull? I don't know if I'm underestimating the card, but It needs at least 3 mana to cast it (2 of them must be green and you need to have an ''opened'' mana source). Show and Tell's mana cost is much easier to pay (Ancient Tomb) Channel also cost you between 12-15 lifes!! Show and Tell may give some advantage to the oponent (Goblin Ringleader, Tombstalker) but it won't make you so vulnerable to aggro decks...
You don't need an "open" mana source. That just means that you can use the ability of channel whenever you could normally use a mana ability. Which means whenever you damn want.
Is Channel that powerfull? I don't know if I'm underestimating the card, but It needs at least 3 mana to cast it (2 of them must be green and you need to have an ''opened'' mana source). Show and Tell's mana cost is much easier to pay (Ancient Tomb) Channel also cost you between 12-15 lifes!! Show and Tell may give some advantage to the oponent (Goblin Ringleader, Tombstalker) but it won't make you so vulnerable to aggro decks...
Turn one, cast Emrakul, as back up for your combo. Goodbye meta game.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Is it a problem that's I've stopped reading this thread for a legitimate discussion, and only for the entertainment factor of seeing completely insane proposals? The "reasons" for unbanning bitterblossom in modern just keep getting better and better...
Gush has a 100 some page book written about it, so I'm sure someone somewhere will find a good way to make it a problem
The book WAS about Vintage, as far as I know, but that's still quite the page count for "draw 2 cards"
Yes, I am aware of Menendian books. But like you admitted, they are written for Vintage. Just because a card is good there, doesnt mean its going to be in another format. There are a lot of interactions that can be done with Gush, mainly on what mana you should float before you bounce your two islands to your hand.
Yes, I am aware of Menendian books. But like you admitted, they are written for Vintage. Just because a card is good there, doesnt mean its going to be in another format. There are a lot of interactions that can be done with Gush, mainly on what mana you should float before you bounce your two islands to your hand.
Snarky comment is snarky. Also, its actually not for free.
1. A lot of those interactions are still present in Legacy, primarily the interactions with brainstorm, which makes discard effects even worse in a meta where brainstorm is regarded as the best card in legacy, and the best decks in the format are largely tempo-based.
2. No, it's better than free. In addition to the aforementioned brainstorm interactions, Gush is giving the strongest color in Legacy yet another way to gain card advantage. Decks like burn, tribal aggro, and other non-blue archetypes live and die based upon the ability to impose their gameplan before blue-based decks can stabilize and assert board control. 2 additional cards on top of wasteland protection is pretty powerful in a meta where RUG, reanimator, and UW stoneblade are already top dogs.
There was nothing snarky about his comment. If anything, it's dead accurate.
Why Gush can never and will never be unbanned in Legacy
1) It allows you to make land drops you shouldn't. For instance, I keep a hand with Gush, and 2 lands. On my third turn, I haven't drawn a land, so I simply float 2 mana, bounce my 2 dual lands, draw 2 cards, and play another. Doesn't sound so broken, but when you're playing with tempo decks like Canadian or Team America than easily run off 3-4 lands, it is.
2) It counters Wasteland. You waste my land, I float 2 mana, and bounce the land you target and another, and draw 2 cards. You're down a Wasteland, I saved my land and drew 2.
3) It's interaction with Brainstorm. With Gush, you can bounce 2 lands, draw 2 cards, then use Brainstorm to turn the lands you just bounced into new cards. It's an interaction that led to the restriction of Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm, Ponder and Gush in Vintage, effectively killing it as a format.
The unbanning of Gush would make Merfolk and U/x Tempo decks absolute monsters, and lots of people are already *****ing about how blue is too good right now. Blue decks like Stoneblade, Reanimator, UR Delver, Team America, Canadian Thresh, and various Countertop builds are already top tier decks WITHOUT a true source of card draw in them (I'm discounting Brainstorm, since it doens't net you any cards). Giving them access to one of the most busted sources of new cards ever printed is not going to aid the format.
1. A lot of those interactions are still present in Legacy, primarily the interactions with brainstorm, which makes discard effects even worse in a meta where brainstorm is regarded as the best card in legacy, and the best decks in the format are largely tempo-based.
Yes, the interaction with Brainstorm and to a lesser degree Jace, the Mind Sculptor is one that can not be over looked. But at the same time, is it that powerful?
2. No, it's better than free. In addition to the aforementioned brainstorm interactions, Gush is giving the strongest color in Legacy yet another way to gain card advantage. Decks like burn, tribal aggro, and other non-blue archetypes live and die based upon the ability to impose their gameplan before blue-based decks can stabilize and assert board control.
And returning two mana sources to their hand does what to establish board control? Legacy has similar cards to Fastbond, but they still arent Fastbond. Plus the lack of Moxen and other seriously fast mana isnt helpful. Thats why its not free, you draw two cards, but your down by two land drops.
Unlike Vintage Gush, where it runs 5 moxen, lotus, ring, and some other artifact mana. Add Mana Drain and even Lotus Cobra you dont really need that many lands on the board.
2 additional cards on top of wasteland protection is pretty powerful in a meta where RUG, reanimator, and UW stoneblade are already top dogs.
As someone who has been on the other end of the table with Wasteland vs Gush. You just have to know when to use it. It does make it more difficult, but there are times when you can hit nonbasics with wasteland and not fear Gush at all.
Hypothetical question: what would happen if they banned Brainstorm and unbanned Gush?
I'd still be playing DDFT because you'd never have to pass the turn to win with gush in that deck. Not to mention, gush is an arguably a better ancestral recall when they attempt to wasteland you and you gush bouncing the targeted land in response. They should NEVER unban gush in legacy despite the fact that we don't have the 5 original moxen and fastbond it would still be very overpowered. I doubt the DCI has the balls to try unbanning it in legacy anyways; they have only unbanned the safest cards so far without doing a real serious unban that would affect the meta sans entomb but that's because entomb is an instant speed demonic tutor and when mystical was around obviously having 8 copies of entomb is fair. Not to mention the DCI probably doesn't have the balls to unban gush in legacy same with land tax, mind twist, and black vise despite the last 3 being safe in the metagame without causing a huge uproar.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I remember the night clearly...The game store had just closed and I was walking to my car when two guys in my playgroup ran up the street to me very excited like they had just won the lottery or something. Apparently someone called them to tell them Gush had been unrestricted again, and they were just so damn happy they had to run up and tell me right then and there. This one guy, I had never seen him smile so much in my life. I didnt really get what the big deal was because Im not a huge vintage player, but I'll tell you this: there are people out there that care about vintage, and they care about it a lot.
Is still does stupid stuff. Example:
You target my underground sea with wasteland. I gush in response bouncing my underground sea back to my hand. I just drew cards all at the low cost of protecting my land and making you lose yours..Do you not see anything wrong with this ?
BUG Dredge BUG]
WUBRG Storm WUBRG
UBR FaerieStalker UBR
EDH
Sygg, River Cutthroat (1vs1)
Maga, Traitor to Mortals (multiplayer)
Punishing Fire is the more problematic of the 2 card combo, with Fire, Grove will most likely not see a whole lot of play. Snapcaster hasn't been a huge problem, yet, but with the amount of flashbackable stuff in Modern I doubt wizards will let it see more then one PTQ season if any at all. Also anyone that thinks Jace or Bitterblossom are ever getting off the banned list, your living in Magical Christmas Land. Wizards stated multiple times that Jace was a horrible mistake on there part, that's why it dominated standard the way it did and forced itself to be banned in the first place. Having played with it in Standard first hand and getting the chance to Brainstorm with one 6 times in the same game, that's a problem. Now granted with a format that also includes Bloodbraid Elf, Jace may not be the problem it was in Standard, but in general free library manipulation is a huge issue. Plus it makes Deceiver deck way more consistent, the whole reason Ponder & Preordain were banned. Bitterblossom will never get off because it makes free 1/1's way to early. Also the only way Stoneforge gets unbanned in Modern is if wizards bans Batterskull and possibly every sword in the cycle. Something they would never do. Aether Vial may also get the axe in Modern, it hasn't been a problem just yet, but the best thing about Stoneforge was the ability to cheat stuff in, something Vial does a bit to well in control decks.
Gush needs two Islands, just to let you know.
*crawl crawl*
Wait a minute, edible roaches don't crawl! EDIBLE ROACHES DON'T CRAWL!
I think the edh ban list is still updated the same day, just not by wotc.
Aside from punishing fire in Modern, I think that's the only other thing needing banning.
I could see an argument for Brainstorm in legacy, but I do not thing it's going to happen.
thanks DarkNightCavalier for the sig!
My Trade Thread
I can see arguing that it's too good, but I think it's one of the major draws to the format, and banning it would damage the format's popularity.
I stated that it reads "If this resolves, you win the game." Every deck which could feasibly play this card suddenly would, and would alter their decks accordingly to give themselves the absolute best shot at resolving this spell. Yes, if you threw this card in RIGHT NOW to the exact same decklists people are slinging, then sure it would not work that well. The problem is that people will adapt their decks to force this card through. It is a format-warping card that I am glad is not available in the card-pool right now. People who say "Oh it's really not that bad" are deluding themselves.
If it resolves for you, you will likely win the game based on that fact alone. The game will drag out a few turns more, but the fact is that you just won the game due to a 1 mana spell.
If it resolves against you, you will likely lose the game based on that fact alone. The game will drag out a few turns more, but the fact is that you just lost the game to a 1 mana spell.
Imagine a deck with both Channel and Show and tell available for turn 2 emrakul. Why have any other plan? That seems like a dominating deck, considering it could play the normal blue control shell, and have its wincon be 2 mana. Additionally, the opponent has no opportunity to drop anything into play to counter the show and tell (i.e. Karakas) this is just from the interaction with one card.
tl;dr no.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with needing another "opened" mana source? What does that even mean?
Anyway, basically the way it goes is that you would make a deck of acceleration, emrakul and channel, at the most basic level of abusing channel. Do something like go Land Grant getting forest, chrome mox exiling a green card (or elvish spirit guide, or lotus petal), channel paying your two green mana, pay 15 life, get an emrakul.
You could fiddle with it putting in more protection and such, but the effect is the same, it can do similar things to Show and Tell with much less downside, it can also do similar things to all the mana ramp in a Goblin Charbelcher and it does it all a turn earlier than Show and Tell. Show and Tell is already right on the edge of how good a 2 card combo card should be in legacy, so I don't think a better version of a similar effect is a very good idea.
You don't need an "open" mana source. That just means that you can use the ability of channel whenever you could normally use a mana ability. Which means whenever you damn want.
Agreed. Would Gush even present a problem in Legacy?
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Gush has a 100 some page book written about it, so I'm sure someone somewhere will find a good way to make it a problem
The book WAS about Vintage, as far as I know, but that's still quite the page count for "draw 2 cards"
Turn one, cast Emrakul, as back up for your combo. Goodbye meta game.
It draws two cards for free. What do you think?
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Yes, I am aware of Menendian books. But like you admitted, they are written for Vintage. Just because a card is good there, doesnt mean its going to be in another format. There are a lot of interactions that can be done with Gush, mainly on what mana you should float before you bounce your two islands to your hand.
Snarky comment is snarky. Also, its actually not for free.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
How would it be busted in half?
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Hypothetical question: what would happen if they banned Brainstorm and unbanned Gush?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
1. A lot of those interactions are still present in Legacy, primarily the interactions with brainstorm, which makes discard effects even worse in a meta where brainstorm is regarded as the best card in legacy, and the best decks in the format are largely tempo-based.
2. No, it's better than free. In addition to the aforementioned brainstorm interactions, Gush is giving the strongest color in Legacy yet another way to gain card advantage. Decks like burn, tribal aggro, and other non-blue archetypes live and die based upon the ability to impose their gameplan before blue-based decks can stabilize and assert board control. 2 additional cards on top of wasteland protection is pretty powerful in a meta where RUG, reanimator, and UW stoneblade are already top dogs.
There was nothing snarky about his comment. If anything, it's dead accurate.
1) It allows you to make land drops you shouldn't. For instance, I keep a hand with Gush, and 2 lands. On my third turn, I haven't drawn a land, so I simply float 2 mana, bounce my 2 dual lands, draw 2 cards, and play another. Doesn't sound so broken, but when you're playing with tempo decks like Canadian or Team America than easily run off 3-4 lands, it is.
2) It counters Wasteland. You waste my land, I float 2 mana, and bounce the land you target and another, and draw 2 cards. You're down a Wasteland, I saved my land and drew 2.
3) It's interaction with Brainstorm. With Gush, you can bounce 2 lands, draw 2 cards, then use Brainstorm to turn the lands you just bounced into new cards. It's an interaction that led to the restriction of Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm, Ponder and Gush in Vintage, effectively killing it as a format.
The unbanning of Gush would make Merfolk and U/x Tempo decks absolute monsters, and lots of people are already *****ing about how blue is too good right now. Blue decks like Stoneblade, Reanimator, UR Delver, Team America, Canadian Thresh, and various Countertop builds are already top tier decks WITHOUT a true source of card draw in them (I'm discounting Brainstorm, since it doens't net you any cards). Giving them access to one of the most busted sources of new cards ever printed is not going to aid the format.
Yes, the interaction with Brainstorm and to a lesser degree Jace, the Mind Sculptor is one that can not be over looked. But at the same time, is it that powerful?
And returning two mana sources to their hand does what to establish board control? Legacy has similar cards to Fastbond, but they still arent Fastbond. Plus the lack of Moxen and other seriously fast mana isnt helpful. Thats why its not free, you draw two cards, but your down by two land drops.
Unlike Vintage Gush, where it runs 5 moxen, lotus, ring, and some other artifact mana. Add Mana Drain and even Lotus Cobra you dont really need that many lands on the board.
As someone who has been on the other end of the table with Wasteland vs Gush. You just have to know when to use it. It does make it more difficult, but there are times when you can hit nonbasics with wasteland and not fear Gush at all.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
I'd still be playing DDFT because you'd never have to pass the turn to win with gush in that deck. Not to mention, gush is an arguably a better ancestral recall when they attempt to wasteland you and you gush bouncing the targeted land in response. They should NEVER unban gush in legacy despite the fact that we don't have the 5 original moxen and fastbond it would still be very overpowered. I doubt the DCI has the balls to try unbanning it in legacy anyways; they have only unbanned the safest cards so far without doing a real serious unban that would affect the meta sans entomb but that's because entomb is an instant speed demonic tutor and when mystical was around obviously having 8 copies of entomb is fair. Not to mention the DCI probably doesn't have the balls to unban gush in legacy same with land tax, mind twist, and black vise despite the last 3 being safe in the metagame without causing a huge uproar.
Currently Playing:
Retired
(No, it won't happen. I think nothing is getting banned).
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG