I don't understand the mass amounts of complaining about the format starting with Mirrodin/8th. To me it makes perfect sense because that is the time when the Modern idea of inter-block design started. It is also when a lot of the Modern design practices came in. Not to mention its not that hard to find out what cards are legal in the format if you have any doubts. Cards like Wild Mongrel having a version with the modern frame isn't that big of a deal because the vast majority of people playing this format are likely to be people who are into the competitive scene anyway and will most likely know what blocks are legal.
I totally agree with this. Starting at 8th/Mirrodin with New Frames would be my choice as well.
As a relatively "new player", I think this is the simplest solution as newbies can tell almost instantly which cards would be legal or not. Of course, there are exceptions like the Duel Decks/Planechase of course but that is relatively a smaller pool of cards.
In any event, the purpose is still to get new players into the game and this would definitely do that in my opinion...
Æther Vialmight be just fine, but I would like to see Hypergenesis banned, to allay the playerbase's perception and fear, if nothing else. We don't want anyone to avoid the format because of that old chestnut "Isn't it just a format of turn 2 wins?"
Dark Depths/Vampire Hexmage, whilst probably not "too good", does impact the metagame a little too hard, IMO, and is correctly banned.
Some people don't understand that Jitte was banned NOT because of Stoneforge Mystic but because it created a stale interaction of aggro decks pairing with one another.
Stoneforge Mystic won't get banned and Umezawa's Jitte will not get unbanned any time soon.
Jitte is very poweful and I agree with its banning. SFM is very powerful but not enough to warrant its ban in such a big format. That is, unless the top8 decks start packing 4 SFM each, which won't happen. It will be a high power level card, near our friend Bob, which will be the best creature in the format. #1 Bob, #2 Goyf, #3 SFM. That is my top3. Btw, Bob's price has kind of skyrocketed during the last weeks.
Jitte is very poweful and I agree with its banning. SFM is very powerful but not enough to warrant its ban in such a big format. That is, unless the top8 decks start packing 4 SFM each, which won't happen. It will be a high power level card, near our friend Bob, which will be the best creature in the format. #1 Bob, #2 Goyf, #3 SFM. That is my top3. Btw, Bob's price has kind of skyrocketed during the last weeks.
Yeah I've noticed that too. I'm enjoying that notion since I'm selling off my cards and Dark Confidant has always been sought after. As for your top3 mine are:
1. Confidant
2. SFM
3. Tarmo
I don't agree with all the preformat bannings... IMHO, play with everything unbanned and see how the format develops... if something sticks out, then consider banning it... when you have a format that will have this giant of a cardpool... at least view the possibilities before banning cards
I honestly think Jace + Stoneforge together are going to start running over the format. Maybe they splash B for Thoughtseize, Bitterblossom and possibly Bob, maybe they splash green for Tarmogoyf. Either way the UWx aggro-control decks are going to be way too strong once again.
I don't agree with all the preformat bannings... IMHO, play with everything unbanned and see how the format develops... if something sticks out, then consider banning it... when you have a format that will have this giant of a cardpool... at least view the possibilities before banning cards
How can Skullclamp not be pre-banned? That card is INSANE.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Standard: RWB Dega Burn RWB
Modern: 1 Top Control 1
Legacy: XU Manaless Blue Dredge XU
EDH: Edric, Spymaster of Tres 1UG
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy 1UBR
Or they could wait and announce it with M13 next year. There's no way to know. I'm sure they still have a lot of thinking and discussing to do after the CC.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
I hope they do start this in paper magic over the new extended format because it is crap.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
For those who are naysaying about Overextended, I encourage you to check out the recent tournament results from last night. Note that 123 players were in attendance.
Here is a brief list of the decks that performed well. You can clearly see that this is a far cry from "Legacy Lite", the format that people so dread Overextended becoming. In fact, the format is far more diverse than just a "Legacy Lite" model.
Twelvepost
Enduring Ideal
Combo Elves
Wizards
Pyromancer's Ascension
Scepter Chant
Madness
Hive Twin
Soul Sisters
RG Elves
Living End
Goodstuff Rock
Orzhov Midrange
Then there were the decks that were similar to Legacy ones, although by no means unique to that format. these are decks that have appeared in Standard and Extended for years (or in recent history), so their presence is not a sign that Overextended is just a lite version of Legacy:
Burn
UW Stoneforge
Zoo
Merfolk
Belcher (!!)
Hive Mind (different version though)
Goblins
Esper Aggro (similar to UWB midrange decks)
This is a highly diverse format with lots of potential. The wider pool of cards gives it a lot more health than Modern can have, with strategies like Scepter Chant, Goblins, Wizards, and Madness completely unable to exist without those earlier blocks. While this particular Overextended does not yet use a Masques cutoff, this is probably temporary. Once MTGO gets access to MM, this will assuredly change.
You should probably stop calling it Legacy Lite if you want people to stop calling it that.
The tournament results prove nothing regarding people favoring Overextended versus Modern. They only show that lots and lots of people will show up for a freeroll tournament using cards that they own, unfortunately.
@ktkenshinx If those combo decks are already good without brainstorm, how good would they be with it?
On the other hand, those results don't mean much, since the format is not stablished and tier1/tier2/tier3 decks are not known by the players, they just play the deck they like and think will do best. But until the format becomes official and everybody, including pros, start playing it, we won't know its real form, be it overextended or modern. What I do know, however, is that 12post will be a good deck because it's the deck I've been working on since the modern announcement and it works very well, although the lists in that link are worse than mine hehe.
@ktkenshinx If those combo decks are already good without brainstorm, how good would they be with it?
On the other hand, those results don't mean much, since the format is not stablished and tier1/tier2/tier3 decks are not known by the players, they just play the deck they like and think will do best. But until the format becomes official and everybody, including pros, start playing it, we won't know its real form, be it overextended or modern.
I think you're discounting just how good MTGO players actually are. They're not a bunch of chumps from your local FNM. They're pretty dang good at this game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
The tournament results prove nothing regarding people favoring Overextended versus Modern. They only show that lots and lots of people will show up for a freeroll tournament using cards that they own, unfortunately.
What on earth is unfortunate about that? That's preceisely how EDH/Commander became a popular casual format, and eventually received official support from WotC. I'd love to see an overextended format, and if that means it has to get grassroots support as a free format online for a period of time, then so be it. It's far from a bad thing.
I don't agree with all the preformat bannings... IMHO, play with everything unbanned and see how the format develops... if something sticks out, then consider banning it... when you have a format that will have this giant of a cardpool... at least view the possibilities before banning cards
Yeah have fun playing against 4 clamp's every round if every card were unbanned. It's OBVIOUS what cards should be banned; if a card is banned in legacy it should be banned in modern.
Wizards can announce stuff at any time of their choosing. They aren't restricted to announcing it when a B&R happens, a set is released, a set is announced, etc. etc. they could announce it in 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 years, etc. etc. they do it when they want to. They will HOPEFULLY announce it before the next extended PTQ season and have overextended take its place in the PTQ circuit and at the same time announce reprints of shocks and key cards and stuff.
Quote from Razorgore »
What on earth is unfortunate about that? That's preceisely how EDH/Commander became a popular casual format, and eventually received official support from WotC. I'd love to see an overextended format, and if that means it has to get grassroots support as a free format online for a period of time, then so be it. It's far from a bad thing.
To capitalize on this I have considered actually buying cards on modo to play in overextended tournaments on Tuesday morning and night without owning any of the staples of the format. Playing dragonstorm looks like a lot of fun same with enduring ideal, pyromancer's swath storm, or something. The fact that it's free is icing on the cake.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I think you're discounting just how good MTGO players actually are. They're not a bunch of chumps from your local FNM. They're pretty dang good at this game.
Oh, come on, LOL, have you looked at the lists, they need a lot of work. And I'm only looking at those which did 4-0. Look at the burn deck for instance, bad, bad deck. Where are the lavamancers? Arc trail? Hell's thunder? No lava spike. Looks like some guy with standard cards bought some shocklands and was ready to get some free tix!
Side note: combo decks do much better in undefined formats.
Yeah have fun playing against 4 clamp's every round if every card were unbanned. It's OBVIOUS what cards should be banned; if a card is banned in legacy it should be banned in modern.
Not at all. For example, Worldgorger Dragon is banned in Legacy but there's no need to ban it in OE without Animate Dead.
Granted, it doesn't seem that Gavin put much thought into the banned list.
Quote from "Gavin" »
The first draft of the Overextended banned list was a list cards previously banned in Extended. Why? Because Most of those cards had been banned for good reason!
While these cards were banned for good reason, it appears he didn't actually do the research and check what these reasons were. For example, consider Hypergenesis:
For this newly formed format players will not be able to play with either Sword of the Meek or Hypergenesis. According to Magic R&D member Erik Lauer both cards are poised to rotate out of the format shortly and the decision makers wanted to ensure that there would be room for deck builders to explore the new format and not simply rely on the dominating artifact half of the combo deck known as Thopter Depths or have Hypergenesis run rampant in a format freshly freed from the shackles of Chalice of the Void.
So the "good reason" for banning Hypergenesis was that Chalice of the Void was not in the format to keep it in check. This obviously does not apply to OE.
You should probably stop calling it Legacy Lite if you want people to stop calling it that.
The tournament results prove nothing regarding people favoring Overextended versus Modern. They only show that lots and lots of people will show up for a freeroll tournament using cards that they own, unfortunately.
I did not post the lists to show that more people are favoring one format over the other. At no point in my post did I say this. I was simply showing that the format is itself popular, and that the decks in Overextended are quite diverse.
@ktkenshinx If those combo decks are already good without brainstorm, how good would they be with it?
On the other hand, those results don't mean much, since the format is not stablished and tier1/tier2/tier3 decks are not known by the players, they just play the deck they like and think will do best. But until the format becomes official and everybody, including pros, start playing it, we won't know its real form, be it overextended or modern. What I do know, however, is that 12post will be a good deck because it's the deck I've been working on since the modern announcement and it works very well, although the lists in that link are worse than mine hehe.
Oh, come on, LOL, have you looked at the lists, they need a lot of work. And I'm only looking at those which did 4-0. Look at the burn deck for instance, bad, bad deck. Where are the lavamancers? Arc trail? Hell's thunder? No lava spike. Looks like some guy with standard cards bought some shocklands and was ready to get some free tix!
Side note: combo decks do much better in undefined formats.
@Brainstorm: As I have repeatedly said before, Brainstorm can be looked at and tested. If it is out of control, then it gets banned. Masques still has dozens of useful and fun cards to offer without Brainstorm. If the card doesn't do much to detract from format diversity, then it can stay. It's all about testing to figure that out.
You are being a little arrogant and self-inflating and quite dismissive of these MTGO players. If your twelvepost is amazing, then I encourage you to enter into the tournament and win with it, because that is what players should do with optimal builds. If not, however, then your words are a little empty and sound arrogant.
As to the refinement of the format, I see no difference between the refinement of modern and the refinement of overextended. Both formats need a lot of growth and time in order to be cemented. The difference is that Overextended is already showing that diversity, whereas Modern has shown none (the Community Cup hardly counts because there was a rule that lets each team only have 4 copies of a card used in their overall decklists; not a fair test of diversity). With more cards, Overextended is going to have a wider metagame with more options. It also is going to have the better cutoff point.
@Burn/Arc Trail/no Lava Spike: Spike doesn't remove creatures. In a format that has Combo Elves, Zoo, and RG Elves as premier creature-based decks, that is a problem. Trail is a 2 for 1 deal in at least 2 of those matchups. Lavamancer is subpar because the format currently has a lot of removal, and he ends up being a Shock most of the time. Hell's Thunder has flying in a format where most players currently have no way of blocking it. I strongly encourage people to look at these decks in the context of a metagame and not just as standalone creations. It is insulting to the players who piloted them, and it does not really contribute to the discussion.
I have yet to see a good argument supporting Modern instead of Overextended. While Wizards threw their support in with Modern, that could easily change with community input: Legacy and Commander started out as grassroots formats, and look what happened (T1.5 + EDH).
1. In the post, I explained that people might call it that, but it would be totally unjustified if you looked at the tournament results. I then went on to show that there were many decks that were not Legacy ones, trying to prove that "Legacy Lite" is a bad term that does not apply to overextended.
You know, the one that is actually banned in legacy.
You are definitely right that part of the initial reasoning for excluding Masques had to do with Daze/Brainstorm/Dark Ritual, and a worry that the format would look too much like Legacy with those cards. I am disagreeing with this initial logic because it gets rid of the whole block which is the best possible starting point. Masques is historically significant and a worthy point to start the new eternal format, and three cards should not get in the way of that. Gavin's first article about this was a good one, but I was not alone in disagreeing with his reasons for an Invasion cutoff. Ultimately, Gavin explained that the lack of Masques availability for MTGO players was also a big deciding point in his decision. Once that changes...this can all be reassessed (or even earlier if paper Overextended catches on!).
Gush would probably not be overpowered in the format. Here is an excerpt from a recent Legacy article on Starcitygames, written by Wes Wise, that explains why Gush is safe in Legacy:
2. Gush
Well, I really love to draw cards—so this is more hope than anything else. In my opinion drawing two cards for free in Vintage is a lot better than drawing two cards for free in Legacy. The games are usually a lot longer in Legacy since the cards you're drawing are a lot more balanced. I realize that comparing Vintage and Legacy is like comparing apples to oranges; however, time has proven that unrestricting Gush wasn't a huge mistake in Vintage, and this leads me to believe that its power level has been toned down enough to be fair in Legacy.
I feel like a number of combo decks could emerge if Gush were legal in the Legacy. A deck like ANT wouldn't be able to play it out of fear of hitting it off an Ad Nauseam. Also, the High Tide deck couldn't gain a lot of value from Gush. Time Spiral and High Tide aren't very synergistic with Gush.
Gush doesn't have anything like Mental Misstep to keep it in check, which is unfortunate, however the tempo loss a Legacy deck would suffer from using its alternate cost might be enough to level out its power. A bonus to unbanning Gush is that it would force people to play smarter with their Wastelands. If every land in your deck is “gushable” then your opponent will have to think twice about using Wasteland.
A lot of the decks that Gush helps are decks that really can't exist in Overextended. The lack of High Tide and "real" ANT (No LED and Ritual slows the deck down a lot) make the card a lot safer. I am sure that a deck would develop to use the card, but I do not think it would be that broken in this new format. Testing would be the ultimate arbiter, but I would gamble on it being safe. (I personally am more worried about Land Grant supplementing Belcher with no FoW to keep it in check).
-ktkenshinx-
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I totally agree with this. Starting at 8th/Mirrodin with New Frames would be my choice as well.
As a relatively "new player", I think this is the simplest solution as newbies can tell almost instantly which cards would be legal or not. Of course, there are exceptions like the Duel Decks/Planechase of course but that is relatively a smaller pool of cards.
In any event, the purpose is still to get new players into the game and this would definitely do that in my opinion...
S
My Trade Binder...come take a look!
Some people don't understand that Jitte was banned NOT because of Stoneforge Mystic but because it created a stale interaction of aggro decks pairing with one another.
Stoneforge Mystic won't get banned and Umezawa's Jitte will not get unbanned any time soon.
Yeah I've noticed that too. I'm enjoying that notion since I'm selling off my cards and Dark Confidant has always been sought after. As for your top3 mine are:
1. Confidant
2. SFM
3. Tarmo
How can Skullclamp not be pre-banned? That card is INSANE.
Standard: RWB Dega Burn RWB
Modern: 1 Top Control 1
Legacy: XU Manaless Blue Dredge XU
EDH: Edric, Spymaster of Tres 1UG
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy 1UBR
I miss casting Snapcaster Mage + Rampant Growth
IT is banned.
They announced it as a real format? Link please.
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
read his post carefully...
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
http://mtgoverextended.com/?p=671
Here is a brief list of the decks that performed well. You can clearly see that this is a far cry from "Legacy Lite", the format that people so dread Overextended becoming. In fact, the format is far more diverse than just a "Legacy Lite" model.
Twelvepost
Enduring Ideal
Combo Elves
Wizards
Pyromancer's Ascension
Scepter Chant
Madness
Hive Twin
Soul Sisters
RG Elves
Living End
Goodstuff Rock
Orzhov Midrange
Then there were the decks that were similar to Legacy ones, although by no means unique to that format. these are decks that have appeared in Standard and Extended for years (or in recent history), so their presence is not a sign that Overextended is just a lite version of Legacy:
Burn
UW Stoneforge
Zoo
Merfolk
Belcher (!!)
Hive Mind (different version though)
Goblins
Esper Aggro (similar to UWB midrange decks)
This is a highly diverse format with lots of potential. The wider pool of cards gives it a lot more health than Modern can have, with strategies like Scepter Chant, Goblins, Wizards, and Madness completely unable to exist without those earlier blocks. While this particular Overextended does not yet use a Masques cutoff, this is probably temporary. Once MTGO gets access to MM, this will assuredly change.
-ktkenshinx-
The tournament results prove nothing regarding people favoring Overextended versus Modern. They only show that lots and lots of people will show up for a freeroll tournament using cards that they own, unfortunately.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
On the other hand, those results don't mean much, since the format is not stablished and tier1/tier2/tier3 decks are not known by the players, they just play the deck they like and think will do best. But until the format becomes official and everybody, including pros, start playing it, we won't know its real form, be it overextended or modern. What I do know, however, is that 12post will be a good deck because it's the deck I've been working on since the modern announcement and it works very well, although the lists in that link are worse than mine hehe.
I think you're discounting just how good MTGO players actually are. They're not a bunch of chumps from your local FNM. They're pretty dang good at this game.
What on earth is unfortunate about that? That's preceisely how EDH/Commander became a popular casual format, and eventually received official support from WotC. I'd love to see an overextended format, and if that means it has to get grassroots support as a free format online for a period of time, then so be it. It's far from a bad thing.
Yeah have fun playing against 4 clamp's every round if every card were unbanned. It's OBVIOUS what cards should be banned; if a card is banned in legacy it should be banned in modern.
Wizards can announce stuff at any time of their choosing. They aren't restricted to announcing it when a B&R happens, a set is released, a set is announced, etc. etc. they could announce it in 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 years, etc. etc. they do it when they want to. They will HOPEFULLY announce it before the next extended PTQ season and have overextended take its place in the PTQ circuit and at the same time announce reprints of shocks and key cards and stuff.
To capitalize on this I have considered actually buying cards on modo to play in overextended tournaments on Tuesday morning and night without owning any of the staples of the format. Playing dragonstorm looks like a lot of fun same with enduring ideal, pyromancer's swath storm, or something. The fact that it's free is icing on the cake.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Oh, come on, LOL, have you looked at the lists, they need a lot of work. And I'm only looking at those which did 4-0. Look at the burn deck for instance, bad, bad deck. Where are the lavamancers? Arc trail? Hell's thunder? No lava spike. Looks like some guy with standard cards bought some shocklands and was ready to get some free tix!
Side note: combo decks do much better in undefined formats.
Not at all. For example, Worldgorger Dragon is banned in Legacy but there's no need to ban it in OE without Animate Dead.
Granted, it doesn't seem that Gavin put much thought into the banned list.
While these cards were banned for good reason, it appears he didn't actually do the research and check what these reasons were. For example, consider Hypergenesis:
So the "good reason" for banning Hypergenesis was that Chalice of the Void was not in the format to keep it in check. This obviously does not apply to OE.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I did not post the lists to show that more people are favoring one format over the other. At no point in my post did I say this. I was simply showing that the format is itself popular, and that the decks in Overextended are quite diverse.
@Brainstorm: As I have repeatedly said before, Brainstorm can be looked at and tested. If it is out of control, then it gets banned. Masques still has dozens of useful and fun cards to offer without Brainstorm. If the card doesn't do much to detract from format diversity, then it can stay. It's all about testing to figure that out.
You are being a little arrogant and self-inflating and quite dismissive of these MTGO players. If your twelvepost is amazing, then I encourage you to enter into the tournament and win with it, because that is what players should do with optimal builds. If not, however, then your words are a little empty and sound arrogant.
As to the refinement of the format, I see no difference between the refinement of modern and the refinement of overextended. Both formats need a lot of growth and time in order to be cemented. The difference is that Overextended is already showing that diversity, whereas Modern has shown none (the Community Cup hardly counts because there was a rule that lets each team only have 4 copies of a card used in their overall decklists; not a fair test of diversity). With more cards, Overextended is going to have a wider metagame with more options. It also is going to have the better cutoff point.
@Burn/Arc Trail/no Lava Spike: Spike doesn't remove creatures. In a format that has Combo Elves, Zoo, and RG Elves as premier creature-based decks, that is a problem. Trail is a 2 for 1 deal in at least 2 of those matchups. Lavamancer is subpar because the format currently has a lot of removal, and he ends up being a Shock most of the time. Hell's Thunder has flying in a format where most players currently have no way of blocking it. I strongly encourage people to look at these decks in the context of a metagame and not just as standalone creations. It is insulting to the players who piloted them, and it does not really contribute to the discussion.
I have yet to see a good argument supporting Modern instead of Overextended. While Wizards threw their support in with Modern, that could easily change with community input: Legacy and Commander started out as grassroots formats, and look what happened (T1.5 + EDH).
-ktkenshinx-
Have you looked at your signature lately?
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
You know, the one that is actually banned in legacy.
You are definitely right that part of the initial reasoning for excluding Masques had to do with Daze/Brainstorm/Dark Ritual, and a worry that the format would look too much like Legacy with those cards. I am disagreeing with this initial logic because it gets rid of the whole block which is the best possible starting point. Masques is historically significant and a worthy point to start the new eternal format, and three cards should not get in the way of that. Gavin's first article about this was a good one, but I was not alone in disagreeing with his reasons for an Invasion cutoff. Ultimately, Gavin explained that the lack of Masques availability for MTGO players was also a big deciding point in his decision. Once that changes...this can all be reassessed (or even earlier if paper Overextended catches on!).
Gush would probably not be overpowered in the format. Here is an excerpt from a recent Legacy article on Starcitygames, written by Wes Wise, that explains why Gush is safe in Legacy:
A lot of the decks that Gush helps are decks that really can't exist in Overextended. The lack of High Tide and "real" ANT (No LED and Ritual slows the deck down a lot) make the card a lot safer. I am sure that a deck would develop to use the card, but I do not think it would be that broken in this new format. Testing would be the ultimate arbiter, but I would gamble on it being safe. (I personally am more worried about Land Grant supplementing Belcher with no FoW to keep it in check).
-ktkenshinx-