You know, the one that is actually banned in legacy.
You forgot that Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage while Gush is not. Nice way to generalize without analyzing why such thing are the way they are.
Gush is really strong if you have:
way to redeploy land fast : exploration, fastbond (absent in MM onward)
actual dual lands: bouncing shocklands is like 4 life points wasted (absent in MM onward)
wasteland in the format: gush is one of the strongest anti-waste cards (absent in MM onward)
decks sporting 20 or less lands in general: possible, but would probably not be the case in an MM-onward overextended
format defined by tempo and super-low curves: actually not the case in a Invasion-forward format.
Gush in a MM-onward format would be strong but probably fair. Some storm decks could use it, but with Tendril/Desire on the banned list, all that remain is Dragonstorm. A combo that win on T4 and uses shocklands is perfectly fair game for aggro decks (raced by fast Zoo variants). It's on the level of SpiralTide, only less vulnerable to MM but a LOT more vulnerable to discard (at least if u ban brainstorm).
Brainstorm, on the other hand, is broken mostly because of fetches which would be present. Fetches themselves would be worse with shocks instead of duals, but the "draw 3, shuffle 1 or 2 **** cards at instant speed for U" aspect of brainstorm would remain. Brainstorm wouldn't "look" unfair, but it would make blue overrepresented since it's by far the strongest card quality engine ever printed barring Ancestral and Time Walk. It's a free mulligan for U that also push out discard from the format, meaning the only possible control form against combo would be U-based. You don't want that.
Brainstorm it's retardedly strong as long as you have fetches available and i'm ready to bet that it'd be the only one card that would end banned in a MM-onward format (as long as Tendril get the axe, if not, ritual would probably go before it even if imho is the less warping card).
You are definitely right that part of the initial reasoning for excluding Masques had to do with Daze/Brainstorm/Dark Ritual, and a worry that the format would look too much like Legacy with those cards. I am disagreeing with this initial logic because it gets rid of the whole block which is the best possible starting point. Masques is historically significant and a worthy point to start the new eternal format, and three cards should not get in the way of that. Gavin's first article about this was a good one, but I was not alone in disagreeing with his reasons for an Invasion cutoff. Ultimately, Gavin explained that the lack of Masques availability for MTGO players was also a big deciding point in his decision. Once that changes...this can all be reassessed (or even earlier if paper Overextended catches on!).
Gush would probably not be overpowered in the format. Here is an excerpt from a recent Legacy article on Starcitygames, written by Wes Wise, that explains why Gush is safe in Legacy:
A lot of the decks that Gush helps are decks that really can't exist in Overextended. The lack of High Tide and "real" ANT (No LED and Ritual slows the deck down a lot) make the card a lot safer. I am sure that a deck would develop to use the card, but I do not think it would be that broken in this new format. Testing would be the ultimate arbiter, but I would gamble on it being safe. (I personally am more worried about Land Grant supplementing Belcher with no FoW to keep it in check).
-ktkenshinx-
While i agree on most of your arguments, here Wes Wise make an horrible point for unbanning Gush in Legacy. First, Legacy is a format where all the top decks are blue, and all of those blue decks, barring AnT and Spiraltide, would play Gush (combo would probably look at DD again if Gush were to be legal, though). Making a dominant strategy even more dominant isn't a thing you want. Second, there's nothing "smart" about the interaction of Waste and Gush. You can't respond to a gush with a waste, you can and will always respond to waste with a gush. Why? Because you waste usually before T4, while the gush player usually need card advantage on T4 onward. In the large majority of occasions, the gush player would **** wasteland over and there's nothing the waste player can do about it. Gush give another dimension completely to U-based decks and make islands so retardedly strong that you'd have to play them automatically else you'd always, always lose the wars of attrition.
This wouldn't be the case in a format without duals and waste, obviously, but Legacy is defined by those two cards. Gush in Legacy is probably less safe then Bargain, seriously.
I did not post the lists to show that more people are favoring one format over the other. At no point in my post did I say this. I was simply showing that the format is itself popular, and that the decks in Overextended are quite diverse.
@Brainstorm: As I have repeatedly said before, Brainstorm can be looked at and tested. If it is out of control, then it gets banned. Masques still has dozens of useful and fun cards to offer without Brainstorm. If the card doesn't do much to detract from format diversity, then it can stay. It's all about testing to figure that out.
You are being a little arrogant and self-inflating and quite dismissive of these MTGO players. If your twelvepost is amazing, then I encourage you to enter into the tournament and win with it, because that is what players should do with optimal builds. If not, however, then your words are a little empty and sound arrogant.
As to the refinement of the format, I see no difference between the refinement of modern and the refinement of overextended. Both formats need a lot of growth and time in order to be cemented. The difference is that Overextended is already showing that diversity, whereas Modern has shown none (the Community Cup hardly counts because there was a rule that lets each team only have 4 copies of a card used in their overall decklists; not a fair test of diversity). With more cards, Overextended is going to have a wider metagame with more options. It also is going to have the better cutoff point.
@Burn/Arc Trail/no Lava Spike: Spike doesn't remove creatures. In a format that has Combo Elves, Zoo, and RG Elves as premier creature-based decks, that is a problem. Trail is a 2 for 1 deal in at least 2 of those matchups. Lavamancer is subpar because the format currently has a lot of removal, and he ends up being a Shock most of the time. Hell's Thunder has flying in a format where most players currently have no way of blocking it. I strongly encourage people to look at these decks in the context of a metagame and not just as standalone creations. It is insulting to the players who piloted them, and it does not really contribute to the discussion.
I have yet to see a good argument supporting Modern instead of Overextended. While Wizards threw their support in with Modern, that could easily change with community input: Legacy and Commander started out as grassroots formats, and look what happened (T1.5 + EDH).
-ktkenshinx-
I can't play in online because I'm waiting for some pricey cards to drop in price coz of rotation, but its better than those lists.
About the lavamancer comment... don't know what to say... if as you say it ends up being a shock, it's a shock + the card they used to kill it... if they kill it right away, its a 1 for 1 and yourse costed 1 mana, if not, it's all upsides... but this is quite obvious, ask any burn legacy player what he thinks about lavamancer. And I'm not being dismissive with those players, they are just players that made the lists without any testing (and probably in many cases without all the cards they'd play if they could) to see what happens since the tournament is free. But they are not optimal lists by a wide margin. But it's certainly not because the players are stupid.
Doomsday (see the classic DDFT: doomdsay fetchland tendril). Gush is actually one of the best card you can play in such a deck. In Vintage Gush also power classic Long lists (aka drawmydeck.dec), but Long list are not possible in legacy where the only broken draw engine are AnT and Spiral neither of which are usable with Gush.
Yeah... Masque block has a slew of powerful cards that would have to constantly be watched if not outright banned (not to mention MODO will have to wait a few months at least for reprints from that set)
This is not to mention various problem cards that come along with going back to 1999's core set (6th), like the tutor cycle, goblin recruiter, doomsday, etc. (Which also aren't on MODO except for some masters edition reprints)
I just don't think it's worth adding a set which creates so much power creep and tilts the game further towards blue. In fact, one of the things I like about Modern is its lack of Counterspell, which makes it less likely that blue completely dominates the format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Slingin' cardboard out of Yokohama, Japan. (if you're local and play EDH or want to test competitive, drop me a line!)
Something I find a little sad is that this thread, created on 5/20, has less views than the " Chandra, Garruk and Jace aren't probably in Lorwyn Form" created on 6/17.
Something I find a little sad is that this thread, created on 5/20, has less views than the " Chandra, Garruk and Jace aren't probably in Lorwyn Form" created on 6/17.
Its been a month since Modern was announced online. So they've had a month to compile data and run it through marketing, R&D, and the like. Surely we will here something soon.
With reprinting Grim Lavamancer in M12 and Entomb in the foil series does this herald Modern or Overextended? I will support format wherever the line is drawn - I prefer more older cards as would like as many options as possible and to keep it from being Standard /Extended Greatest Hits! Most Modern list at Community Cup were updated recent decks.
That's what we're all debating. The answer is No, its not...yet.
my solid guess would be that when wizards doubled the number of GP's next year... they will announce some with new formats... such as Modern... and see GP's with previously unplayed formats... would be great
One block PT or GP at end of a block is cool because helps foreshadow future standard. with more GP's i think they will continue block even if just one a year IMO.
I could easily see Modern replacing Block Constructed on the PT circuit, given how small the new set sizes are.
What do you think of both Modern and Overextended being officialized? Having one format that's more about an alternative to Extended, and the other that's more an alternative to Legacy.
Also, thanks for retweeting my support for the banning of Goyf.
What do you think of both Modern and Overextended being officialized? Having one format that's more about an alternative to Extended, and the other that's more an alternative to Legacy.
Also, thanks for retweeting my support for the banning of Goyf.
I think it will be on or the other, not both.
I expect Modern to be a legal format after Innistrad is released.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Follow me at MTGPackFoils on Twitter & Facebook.
currently playing:
Standard UW Control UWB Control UB Control MODERN BRGJund X Affinity UWR Control
What Industrial said. They wouldn't make overextended AND modern sanctioned formats, it makes absolutely 0 sense to do so. The formats would be so similar it would be just odd. It's one or the other; I just hope it's invasion or masques onward in the end. Not 8th edition onward; I like having access to more cards like vindicate, fact or fiction, yawgmoth's agenda, etc. etc.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I was thinking about the whole term modern magic and were did it start in it's present modern form and well using card frames is not a good idea at all. It's a okay idea.
But If we were to use influential cards and what is currently being printed then we'd have to use planeswalkers.
While planeswalkers have been mentioned in cards as far back as invasion maybe further. They started print in Lorywn. So maybe the format should start there, unless people want arcane's from kamigawa? hahaha I wish they did that better.
There aren't any new card types that have come out since then certainly nothing that has changed the game as much.
Originally I wanted Invasion plus but that is only because that is when I started playing magic, then there is the new card frame, which is super arbitrary, they did that only because they though it would attract more players. So yeah I hate that idea of starting there it is a really dumb idea........So where to start? Is there any point that is not arbitrary mmmm no.
But again yeah new card types being in the game seems like a good argument to me
planeswalkers plus. Do it.
planeswalkers have been mentioned in cards as far back as invasion maybe further.
The idea of a planeswalker has been part of the game since Alpha, actually. The very premise of the game is that it's a duel between planeswalkers.
Far as I figure, Urza's cards/quotes in Antiquities were the first cards to reference a Planeswalker directly by name.
Planeswalker as a card type is only the last couple years, though references to current planeswalkers in print go back as far as Karn's first appearances before even Urza's Saga. (though he wasn't actually a PW until what, Invasion?)
Also, Modern is less arbitrary than is being stated by a lot of people; the new card border also marked a design philosophy change, where creature and artifact power levels got pushed, as compared with instant/sorcery power levels. The absence of Counterspell, for example, is very notable in Modern.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Slingin' cardboard out of Yokohama, Japan. (if you're local and play EDH or want to test competitive, drop me a line!)
Yeah, Modern is probably becoming first a MTGO format and later a paper format, the question is WHEN? INN seems like too late for me, come on, september? /sadface.
Poll from the mothership: What do you think of Modern?
It's awesome! 658 37.7%
It's good! 488 27.9%
It's okay! 309 17.7%
It's bad. 74 4.2%
It's awful! 95 5.4%
I don't have an opinion. 122 7.0% Total1746100.0%
Positive opinion: 83.4% Negative opinion: 9.6% (these probably come from legacy players lol) Neutral: 7%
Yeah, Modern is probably becoming first a MTGO format and later a paper format, the question is WHEN? INN seems like too late for me, come on, september? /sadface.
Poll from the mothership: What do you think of Modern?
It's awesome! 658 37.7%
It's good! 488 27.9%
It's okay! 309 17.7%
It's bad. 74 4.2%
It's awful! 95 5.4%
I don't have an opinion. 122 7.0% Total1746100.0%
I agree. It looks like Modern will be a format. Now it's just when.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Also, Modern is less arbitrary than is being stated by a lot of people; the new card border also marked a design philosophy change, where creature and artifact power levels got pushed, as compared with instant/sorcery power levels. The absence of Counterspell, for example, is very notable in Modern.
actually the first publicly known creature whose power was deliberately 'pushed' was Spiritmonger. If you want to talk about entire sets and block, that would be Onslaught block. The first effort to change the color pie and other designs (that the public was aware of) was Invasion; also see Spiritmonger. The first time :pframes were radically changed were split cards from Invasion and Apocalypse. Artifacts were retarded good in Urza then toned down. they wanted to do a fair artifact block and Mirrodin happened to be it; it's not more special than themes in other blocks.
I don't think "Modern" will be a new format. Why make another format? Just so cards can get "expensive" in that format and then people will clamor for another format because the default "old set" format got too expensive for them?
Just stop making format changes every year. Seems like the reason why Extended died off was they kept messing with it. Sometimes it was the last 7 years other times it was the last 5 blocks.. Now it's just the last 4 years of Magic. If you want to know what killed Extended, it was changing it all the time.
They are not going to reprint en mass any "relevant" card from "Modern" anyways. So, it'll go awesome for a few years, pick up steam, then then when it hits critical mass, will collapse on its own popularity because I just don't see Wizards EVER reprinting cards like Tarmogoyf all the time or at all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
I agree. It looks like Modern will be a format. Now it's just when.
I sincerely hope that Wizards is not going to base an entire new format and the future of Magic on the opinion of 1000 people. This is especially stupid given that they have not actually tested the format yet in a real setting. The Community Cup was not a real test of format health because any one team was only allowed to play 4 copies of a card. This necessarily made the format appear diverse when in reality it might not be. Hypergenesis, Twelvepost, and UW Stoneforge seem completely out of control in Modern, and without a real tournament to showcase these decks, we can never know for sure.
Wizards is not going to jump ahead with something so important with only the results of a single poll. Naming a format (the Legacy polls from 2004) is one thing, but a real format is something entirely different. This debate is NOT over, and Wizards is not going to end it yet without more community input.
I sincerely hope that Wizards is not going to base an entire new format and the future of Magic on the opinion of 1000 people. This is especially stupid given that they have not actually tested the format yet in a real setting. The Community Cup was not a real test of format health because any one team was only allowed to play 4 copies of a card. This necessarily made the format appear diverse when in reality it might not be. Hypergenesis, Twelvepost, and UW Stoneforge seem completely out of control in Modern, and without a real tournament to showcase these decks, we can never know for sure.
Wizards is not going to jump ahead with something so important with only the results of a single poll. Naming a format (the Legacy polls from 2004) is one thing, but a real format is something entirely different. This debate is NOT over, and Wizards is not going to end it yet without more community input.
-ktkenshinx-
No offense, but your desire for an Invasion/Masques starting point is completely clouding your ability to analyze things here.
You forgot that Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage while Gush is not. Nice way to generalize without analyzing why such thing are the way they are.
Gush is really strong if you have:
way to redeploy land fast : exploration, fastbond (absent in MM onward)
actual dual lands: bouncing shocklands is like 4 life points wasted (absent in MM onward)
wasteland in the format: gush is one of the strongest anti-waste cards (absent in MM onward)
decks sporting 20 or less lands in general: possible, but would probably not be the case in an MM-onward overextended
format defined by tempo and super-low curves: actually not the case in a Invasion-forward format.
Gush in a MM-onward format would be strong but probably fair. Some storm decks could use it, but with Tendril/Desire on the banned list, all that remain is Dragonstorm. A combo that win on T4 and uses shocklands is perfectly fair game for aggro decks (raced by fast Zoo variants). It's on the level of SpiralTide, only less vulnerable to MM but a LOT more vulnerable to discard (at least if u ban brainstorm).
Brainstorm, on the other hand, is broken mostly because of fetches which would be present. Fetches themselves would be worse with shocks instead of duals, but the "draw 3, shuffle 1 or 2 **** cards at instant speed for U" aspect of brainstorm would remain. Brainstorm wouldn't "look" unfair, but it would make blue overrepresented since it's by far the strongest card quality engine ever printed barring Ancestral and Time Walk. It's a free mulligan for U that also push out discard from the format, meaning the only possible control form against combo would be U-based. You don't want that.
Brainstorm it's retardedly strong as long as you have fetches available and i'm ready to bet that it'd be the only one card that would end banned in a MM-onward format (as long as Tendril get the axe, if not, ritual would probably go before it even if imho is the less warping card).
While i agree on most of your arguments, here Wes Wise make an horrible point for unbanning Gush in Legacy. First, Legacy is a format where all the top decks are blue, and all of those blue decks, barring AnT and Spiraltide, would play Gush (combo would probably look at DD again if Gush were to be legal, though). Making a dominant strategy even more dominant isn't a thing you want. Second, there's nothing "smart" about the interaction of Waste and Gush. You can't respond to a gush with a waste, you can and will always respond to waste with a gush. Why? Because you waste usually before T4, while the gush player usually need card advantage on T4 onward. In the large majority of occasions, the gush player would **** wasteland over and there's nothing the waste player can do about it. Gush give another dimension completely to U-based decks and make islands so retardedly strong that you'd have to play them automatically else you'd always, always lose the wars of attrition.
This wouldn't be the case in a format without duals and waste, obviously, but Legacy is defined by those two cards. Gush in Legacy is probably less safe then Bargain, seriously.
I can't play in online because I'm waiting for some pricey cards to drop in price coz of rotation, but its better than those lists.
About the lavamancer comment... don't know what to say... if as you say it ends up being a shock, it's a shock + the card they used to kill it... if they kill it right away, its a 1 for 1 and yourse costed 1 mana, if not, it's all upsides... but this is quite obvious, ask any burn legacy player what he thinks about lavamancer. And I'm not being dismissive with those players, they are just players that made the lists without any testing (and probably in many cases without all the cards they'd play if they could) to see what happens since the tournament is free. But they are not optimal lists by a wide margin. But it's certainly not because the players are stupid.
Doomsday (see the classic DDFT: doomdsay fetchland tendril). Gush is actually one of the best card you can play in such a deck. In Vintage Gush also power classic Long lists (aka drawmydeck.dec), but Long list are not possible in legacy where the only broken draw engine are AnT and Spiral neither of which are usable with Gush.
This is not to mention various problem cards that come along with going back to 1999's core set (6th), like the tutor cycle, goblin recruiter, doomsday, etc. (Which also aren't on MODO except for some masters edition reprints)
I just don't think it's worth adding a set which creates so much power creep and tilts the game further towards blue. In fact, one of the things I like about Modern is its lack of Counterspell, which makes it less likely that blue completely dominates the format.
Its been a month since Modern was announced online. So they've had a month to compile data and run it through marketing, R&D, and the like. Surely we will here something soon.
That's what we're all debating. The answer is No, its not...yet.
my solid guess would be that when wizards doubled the number of GP's next year... they will announce some with new formats... such as Modern... and see GP's with previously unplayed formats... would be great
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Also, thanks for retweeting my support for the banning of Goyf.
I think it will be on or the other, not both.
I expect Modern to be a legal format after Innistrad is released.
currently playing:
Standard
UW Control
UWB Control
UB Control
MODERN
BRGJund
X Affinity
UWR Control
LEGACY
Dredge
R Burn
UWx Miracles
EDH
BRW Kaalia
______
Quotes:
My Magic Card nicknames.
Currently Playing:
Retired
They're already starting it at equipment+!
The idea of a planeswalker has been part of the game since Alpha, actually. The very premise of the game is that it's a duel between planeswalkers.
Far as I figure, Urza's cards/quotes in Antiquities were the first cards to reference a Planeswalker directly by name.
Planeswalker as a card type is only the last couple years, though references to current planeswalkers in print go back as far as Karn's first appearances before even Urza's Saga. (though he wasn't actually a PW until what, Invasion?)
Also, Modern is less arbitrary than is being stated by a lot of people; the new card border also marked a design philosophy change, where creature and artifact power levels got pushed, as compared with instant/sorcery power levels. The absence of Counterspell, for example, is very notable in Modern.
Poll from the mothership: What do you think of Modern?
It's awesome! 658 37.7%
It's good! 488 27.9%
It's okay! 309 17.7%
It's bad. 74 4.2%
It's awful! 95 5.4%
I don't have an opinion. 122 7.0%
Total 1746 100.0%
Positive opinion: 83.4%
Negative opinion: 9.6% (these probably come from legacy players lol)
Neutral: 7%
I agree. It looks like Modern will be a format. Now it's just when.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
actually the first publicly known creature whose power was deliberately 'pushed' was Spiritmonger. If you want to talk about entire sets and block, that would be Onslaught block. The first effort to change the color pie and other designs (that the public was aware of) was Invasion; also see Spiritmonger. The first time :pframes were radically changed were split cards from Invasion and Apocalypse. Artifacts were retarded good in Urza then toned down. they wanted to do a fair artifact block and Mirrodin happened to be it; it's not more special than themes in other blocks.
........................
Just stop making format changes every year. Seems like the reason why Extended died off was they kept messing with it. Sometimes it was the last 7 years other times it was the last 5 blocks.. Now it's just the last 4 years of Magic. If you want to know what killed Extended, it was changing it all the time.
They are not going to reprint en mass any "relevant" card from "Modern" anyways. So, it'll go awesome for a few years, pick up steam, then then when it hits critical mass, will collapse on its own popularity because I just don't see Wizards EVER reprinting cards like Tarmogoyf all the time or at all.
Watch Play Read
Twitter
I sincerely hope that Wizards is not going to base an entire new format and the future of Magic on the opinion of 1000 people. This is especially stupid given that they have not actually tested the format yet in a real setting. The Community Cup was not a real test of format health because any one team was only allowed to play 4 copies of a card. This necessarily made the format appear diverse when in reality it might not be. Hypergenesis, Twelvepost, and UW Stoneforge seem completely out of control in Modern, and without a real tournament to showcase these decks, we can never know for sure.
Wizards is not going to jump ahead with something so important with only the results of a single poll. Naming a format (the Legacy polls from 2004) is one thing, but a real format is something entirely different. This debate is NOT over, and Wizards is not going to end it yet without more community input.
-ktkenshinx-
No offense, but your desire for an Invasion/Masques starting point is completely clouding your ability to analyze things here.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)