Ok - I'll say it once more - old extended was not popular because it rotated every year, when it comes to a nonstandard format, people don't like their cards rotating. Also, the last old extended season suffered from the same standard was suffering prior SFM/jacetms ban, 1 deck dominated (and wizards didn't care to ban anything because they knew the change to extended was coming).
Also, the last old extended season suffered from the same standard was suffering prior SFM/jacetms ban, 1 deck dominated (and wizards didn't care to ban anything because they knew the change to extended was coming).
There is ONE and ONLY ONE reason why cards are expensive in Legacy.
WotC cannot reprint them.
That's the only reason. Yes, they are rare, because WotC can't reprint them, so people gouge you for them. Modern Magic has no Reserve list. If a card becomes Expensive, WotC can reprint it to satisfy the demand, whether in a Dual Deck kind of thing or by straight up reprinting it in a core set or whatever.
No, what killed Extended was WotC refusing to support it in any way.
Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it won't happen.
If there is enough Demand for Tarmogyf, they WILL reprint it. I would bet my left arm that WotC DESPERATELY wants to reprint most of the Legacy Staples, but cannot because of RABBLERABBLERABBLE.
My point with all this is. Just because a card isn't on the reserved list doesn't mean they will "reprint anything". They can reprint cards like Wasteland and Force of Will All day long but they haven't. (They reprinted Wasteland as a judge foil recently, but that isn't widely available or printed in mass numbers) Or they could throw in Sinkhole, or Rishadan Port out there as well. We haven't even seen any of the goblins from the goblin deck get reprinted like Goblin Piledriver it's not resereved? what gives?
They could get around the reserve list if they wanted to. Why not make a product that has "new" dual lands in them? They can make Snow Covered Dual lands if they wanted to, throw them in a Legacy only package, then on the same day Ban the old duals so the new ones would be the only ones you could use in Legacy and be done with it. They won't do this because they want players to play with the cards they already own and it would be inelegant, but it is a solution, and one that would work far more then "modern" would.
There will never be a duel deck style product that contains a Tarmogoyf or even other "chase" mythics that will eventually find their way to the tops of this proposed format. I don't understand the need for another format myself. I get it that money is a driving factor to people wanting a different format to play. That's fine. What isn't fine is making up excuses why you believe the format will exist. There is no precedence that a "community cup" format has to be a "real" format. Where is BYOS? I would love to see that format become official. Or even a yearly "rotating old Standard" format. Even every Ban/Restricted update change the Rotating Standard format. That would be incredibly fun. Keep everything fresh.
If they do decide to do "modern" that is cool too. But I just don't really understand why people want this format. It isn't going to be played at FNM (which is why Standard is so popular) and it won't be a format at SCG opens (even if it is, they are not abandoning Legacy).
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
New players can't get into Legacy because there aren't enough cards to go around. Thus, people want an Eternal format that is actually sustainable, where Wizards can find ways to reprint cards that are having supply issues.
I do agree that Tarmogoyf is a big problem for Modern, and I would actually just ban in straight out of the gate because, as you said, it's un-reprintable.
New players can't get into Legacy because there aren't enough cards to go around. Thus, people want an Eternal format that is actually sustainable, where Wizards can find ways to reprint cards that are having supply issues.
I do agree that Tarmogoyf is a big problem for Modern, and I would actually just ban in straight out of the gate because, as you said, it's un-reprintable.
It's fine to want an eternal format that is sustainable. But just because they have the opportunity to print cards to demand, doesn't mean they actually will. They have yet to print cards "to demand" of cards that they can print. Why would that change with a new format?
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
New players can't get into Legacy because there aren't enough cards to go around. Thus, people want an Eternal format that is actually sustainable, where Wizards can find ways to reprint cards that are having supply issues.
I do agree that Tarmogoyf is a big problem for Modern, and I would actually just ban in straight out of the gate because, as you said, it's un-reprintable.
I would argue that Jace and Stoneforge are bigger problems than Tarmogoyf will ever be.
I would argue that Jace and Stoneforge are bigger problems than Tarmogoyf will ever be.
Tarmogoyf's problem is one unique to Modern. It's essentially on the reserved list, as no viable way of reprinting it exists. It's not so much a power level issue as it is a barrier to entry issue for the format that can be avoided if the card's never legal to begin with.
Tarmogoyf's problem is one unique to Modern. It's essentially on the reserved list, as no viable way of reprinting it exists. It's not so much a power level issue as it is a barrier to entry issue for the format that can be avoided if the card's never legal to begin with.
What's funny is that if the t2-legal fetches were allowed to rotate without reprint, Tarmo could be reprinted in a core set without significantly more standard impact than leatherback baloth. (and even frequently being a worse mana-to-power tradeoff)
He's best when formats involve a lot of plays on early turns which populate the graveyard. In formats where this is not true, he's good-but-not-amazing. Even in legacy, his power level will reduce as the popularity of JTMS increases. He will always be great in aggro strategies in eternal formats, but as the primary 2-drop for control decks, SFM is frequently getting the nod over him.
Just saying, I can see him at 40$ instead of 60$ in 1-2 years even without a reprint. A reprint might drive him to 30$. (e.g. current chase mythic)
All of this is within the realm of possibility. He's just not that much better than current cards anymore. He might _define_ a standard environment where he's reprinted, and drive people away from red removal, but he wouldn't necessarily break it.
Tarmogoyf's problem is one unique to Modern. It's essentially on the reserved list, as no viable way of reprinting it exists. It's not so much a power level issue as it is a barrier to entry issue for the format that can be avoided if the card's never legal to begin with.
It could be printed in From the Vault, Duel Decks, Multiplayer precons, or even printed as a promo. And as other have said, it could be in Standard without TOO much of a problem.
No offense, but your desire for an Invasion/Masques starting point is completely clouding your ability to analyze things here.
I have really tried, on these forums and others, to puzzle through Modern vs. Overextended, analyzing the pros and cons of both. In every case, there is just no good reason that I can see to support Modern instead of Overextended. It's not that my support for the format is clouding my analysis. It's that my support for the format is based in a lot of analyses, and I do not want to see Modern take the stage over something that is clearly better.
Magic has a lot at stake in this format, and I just hope that it comes out as optimally as possible for the players and for the game. Modern does not represent that optimal format, because of an arbitrary starting point and substantially less card and deck diversity. Overextended, on the other hand, has a convincing and historically important starting point at Masques, and includes way more cards.
All in all, Modern is better than nothing. But at the moment, you really can't say "modern is diverse" when there has been no real and honest test of its diversity and health. The Community Cup does not show any real diversity because of its unique rules. If someone has evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it! But Overextended has plenty of evidence to show its own health and diversity, and that is what I base my support off of. I hope others do the same.
I have really tried, on these forums and others, to puzzle through Modern vs. Overextended, analyzing the pros and cons of both. In every case, there is just no good reason that I can see to support Modern instead of Overextended. It's not that my support for the format is clouding my analysis. It's that my support for the format is based in a lot of analyses, and I do not want to see Modern take the stage over something that is clearly better.
Magic has a lot at stake in this format, and I just hope that it comes out as optimally as possible for the players and for the game. Modern does not represent that optimal format, because of an arbitrary starting point and substantially less card and deck diversity. Overextended, on the other hand, has a convincing and historically important starting point at Masques, and includes way more cards.
All in all, Modern is better than nothing. But at the moment, you really can't say "modern is diverse" when there has been no real and honest test of its diversity and health. The Community Cup does not show any real diversity because of its unique rules. If someone has evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it! But Overextended has plenty of evidence to show its own health and diversity, and that is what I base my support off of. I hope others do the same.
-ktkenshinx-
The advantage of Modern over any of the other format types is that WOTC has taken a direct interest. That is the only reason anyone needs - WOTC is much more willing to been interested in internal projects then external projects formed from ideas.
And while I agree that forced diversity is negligible at best in terms of results, if the Hypergenisis is banned, I do not think diversity will be an issue.
@the people saying tarmogoyf wouldn't be good in standard: You are wrong. He was legal in Rav/TS standard and TS/Lorwyn standard and DOMINATED because regardless of what cards are available people will always be playing sorceries, instants, and creatures along with 'walkers now. He can be put in any set regardless of the set theme he will see a lot of play in standard because goyf is the best at what he does, which is bash face or block very well because he's generally a 3/4 for 1G if not bigger and is highly splashable.
Tarmogoyf could easily be printed in some ancillary product like a duel deck, a standalone product, heck they could've easily put goyf in some of the commander decks and in commander goyf is completely fair due to how slow the format is. Hell, they even reprinted skullclamp in the BGW commander deck and guess what the consensus on skullclamp is? It's broken. More broken than tarmogoyf at least since it's been banned in every format except vintage. If wotc really wanted to reprint goyf they could find a way and probably make boatloads of money off of the product he was printed in.
On modern vs. overextended. Overextended has a larger card pool and generally that lends to more diversity than a smaller card pool. I want overextended a lot more than modern also because invasion block overall was a very good, well designed block. Invasion is also a multicolor block like Ravnica and is very enjoyable. It also has some powerful cards but are there any broken cards in it? No.
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WotC knows that the Extended alteration was a big failure. No one wants to be playing Standard 2.0 except for the PTQ season. Extended back in the day was a fun format with lots of archetypes.
Why not make Modern a real PTQ season format? Certainly, it would be better than this new and bad extended..
The advantage of Modern over any of the other format types is that WOTC has taken a direct interest. That is the only reason anyone needs - WOTC is much more willing to been interested in internal projects then external projects formed from ideas.
And while I agree that forced diversity is negligible at best in terms of results, if the Hypergenisis is banned, I do not think diversity will be an issue.
This is true. Wizards has definitely taken its own initiative with the Modern cutoff, and that gives it a leg up in that particular area. They are certainly more likely to consider their own format, because that reinforces their credibility and authority.
But that said, Magic has had two formats that were completely player made, ones that Wizards adopted. T1.5 became Legacy and EDH became Commander. Sure, these formats were not competing with one of Wizards' own formats. But they heard players! They listened to the community and its desires and they acted in the greater interest!
It is EASIER to support Modern. It is not the best format, but it is the easy way out. In fact, to support Modern, all you have to do is vote in a poll and that's it. But to support Overextended (which has so much more going for it), you need to commit a bit more. That commitment is what can drive a truly excellent eternal format that will withstand the test of time. NONE of this is to demean those players who have gone the extra mile in supporting Modern (the Modern supporters on MTGS all go this distance). But there is much more to be gained in Overextended, and the worry is that a lot of people don't go out and support Overextended because it looks like Modern has already won. This is not true. Wizards will listen to the community if the community makes its voice heard.
Always remember Tom LaPille's quote, on behalf of Wizards: "As I said, many of you have called for a non-rotating format that doesn't have the card availability problems of Legacy. We propose Modern as that format.
This represents only a proposal and an experiment."
@the people saying tarmogoyf wouldn't be good in standard: You are wrong. He was legal in Rav/TS standard and TS/Lorwyn standard and DOMINATED because regardless of what cards are available people will always be playing sorceries, instants, and creatures along with 'walkers now. He can be put in any set regardless of the set theme he will see a lot of play in standard because goyf is the best at what he does, which is bash face or block very well because he's generally a 3/4 for 1G if not bigger and is highly splashable.
Rav/TS standard is not ZEN/SOM standard. Tarmo WAS absolutely amazing, for the same reasons he's amazing in legacy.
My point was that in a standard environment like this 1st half 2011, Tarmo would not have made waves because he fails the same tests every other undercosted green beater failed, and the format revolved around killing 2cc creatures. For example, I've seen t2 myr superion against caw be completely underwhelming, and that's bigger than tarmo ever is on t2 in standard. Now I'm not saying superion is good like Tarmo, just that in the corner cases where superion actually hit the board t2, it was never all that impressive against JTMS.dec.
I'm not saying he wouldn't have been played, I'm just saying he wouldn't have defined the THIS YEAR's standard format or been the highest value mythic in it.
It could be printed in From the Vault, Duel Decks, Multiplayer precons, or even printed as a promo. And as other have said, it could be in Standard without TOO much of a problem.
No, it can't.
FTV would not impact the secondary price one bit. Those are limited edition print runs.
It cannot be printed in a Duel Deck or Event Deck because the card's worth $60+ and would cause the deck to be sold for 3x MSRP.
Promos, again, would not make a difference on the value.
And no, it would be a massive problem if it showed up in Standard again. It's an absurdly powerful card that's far better than it should be fore two mana.
But at the moment, you really can't say "modern is diverse" when there has been no real and honest test of its diversity and health.
How on earth can you say that when Modern was a PTQ format a year ago! Modern is what Extended was in the PT: San Juan qualifier season, with most of the degenerate combos banned! There's tons of playtesting put into the format already because the format once existed! You're seeing what you want to see.
What I'm really scared of is Stoneforge Mystic. With just the Swords, she'd be very good. With Batterskull, I think she's too good to exist healthily in the format. Having a "you must have removal now or you'll just lose" creature at 2 is not a format-promoting situation to have.
Eh, Dark Confidant is pretty much the same in that if you untap with it, you probably just win. counterspells and removal will be prevalent enough to keep both in check I think, or just comboing out and ignoring either of those altogether.
Eh, Dark Confidant is pretty much the same in that if you untap with it, you probably just win. counterspells and removal will be prevalent enough to keep both in check I think, or just comboing out and ignoring either of those altogether.
That's not even remotely true. The "cost" of Dark Confidant, especially with Top banned, is that it forces you to run a very low mana curve in your deck in order to not get yourself blown up by his ability. Stoneforge is problematic because not only is it a tutor, it's also Aether Vial. They indicated the debate was between banning Stoneforge or Jitte, and it's looking like if those are still the options, that Stoneforge is the card that needs to go.
How on earth can you say that when Modern was a PTQ format a year ago! Modern is what Extended was in the PT: San Juan qualifier season, with most of the degenerate combos banned! There's tons of playtesting put into the format already because the format once existed! You're seeing what you want to see.
Is standard post ban the same format as it was before?
Modern has a longer ban list than old extended. And it has 4 more sets, and more each year, without rotations. Different formats are different.
That's not even remotely true. The "cost" of Dark Confidant, especially with Top banned, is that it forces you to run a very low mana curve in your deck in order to not get yourself blown up by his ability. Stoneforge is problematic because not only is it a tutor, it's also Aether Vial. They indicated the debate was between banning Stoneforge or Jitte, and it's looking like if those are still the options, that Stoneforge is the card that needs to go.
Mystic should go, and Jitte should be unbanned IMO.
That's not even remotely true. The "cost" of Dark Confidant, especially with Top banned, is that it forces you to run a very low mana curve in your deck in order to not get yourself blown up by his ability. Stoneforge is problematic because not only is it a tutor, it's also Aether Vial. They indicated the debate was between banning Stoneforge or Jitte, and it's looking like if those are still the options, that Stoneforge is the card that needs to go.
Have you seen any of the Legacy GWB Junk decks that run Bob? Their curve usually tops out at 3 for Knight of the Reliquary. I highly doubt any competitive Modern deck is going to have a curve with anything over 4 mana that it intends to cast "fairly".
Card advantage wins games on it's own, not to mention there are ways to either gain life back or just kill off the Bob if your life gets too low.
Stoneforge is a fair card that goes in fair decks. Wizards does not ban these kind of cards unless it will be utterly format-warping. If it doesn't dominate in Extended then it for sure will not in Modern. There are plenty of powerful "fair" cards to keep it in check, let's not forget Bloodbraid Elf into Maelstrom Pulse/Blightning is in the format.
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How on earth can you say that when Modern was a PTQ format a year ago! Modern is what Extended was in the PT: San Juan qualifier season, with most of the degenerate combos banned! There's tons of playtesting put into the format already because the format once existed! You're seeing what you want to see.
Modern has old decks and new decks. It is silly to think that Modern is the exact same format as old Extended, especially when a variety of new cards clearly show that this is not true. I understand that you want to disagree with me, but look at the decklists in the format and see how different they are. Look at the new sets that have been gained, and see what those all offer. Three of Modern's decks in particular are either seriously improved or flat out new.
1) Hypergenesis, gaining Chancellor of the Annex and Tangle. Annex is particularly stupid in that deck, as it effectively Time Walks the opponent and makes the combo even harder to disrupt. Tangle allows for random turn 1 wins, or even turn 0 wins with Violent Outburst and Guide.
2) UW Stoneforge never existed in the old Extended. It does now, and that's a problem. The deck is extremely strong, both in Modern and Overextended. The big difference is that Overextended has more ways to fight it, both cards and archetypes. Stoneforge, Jace, Batterskull, Swords; these did not exist in the 2010 Extended season. That makes this deck totally different.
3) Twelvepost. It's scary in both formats, but with a smaller Modern card pool, it's even scarier. Tech such as Rith's Charm and Destructive Flow just do not exist in the format, which makes Twelvepost even more likely to run rampant. Rishadan Port and Dust Bowl also do not exist, and with a Masques cutoff, these would also be cards that could slow down the powerful Twelvepost engine.
As a whole, sure, Modern has similarities to old Extended. But this is a new format with new threats, and the list above shows three decks that are particularly problematic in Modern tournaments. Of course, we can't know for sure, because Wizards has not actually tested the new format in an honest setting with no artificial constraints. Overextended has already passed the diversity test, as each weekly tournament attests to. If Modern does this as well, then I would be a lot more on board with it. But without a real test of format health, we can't just say that "Modern is going to be healthy like old Extended." We have no evidence to suggest that. This is especially problematic because the PT San Juan season qualifier season of 2010 was part of the reason that Wizards had to revamp Extended anyway!
It could be printed in From the Vault, Duel Decks, Multiplayer precons, or even printed as a promo. And as other have said, it could be in Standard without TOO much of a problem.
Promos and FTVs aren't printed in massive enough quantities. I just don't see them throwing a Tarmo in a Duel deck or Multiplayer precon, it is that powerful. I could maybe i see it in a "Premium deck" but I'm not sure what the theme would be, other than "We gotta print staples, yo".
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
Modern has old decks and new decks. It is silly to think that Modern is the exact same format as old Extended, especially when a variety of new cards clearly show that this is not true. I understand that you want to disagree with me, but look at the decklists in the format and see how different they are. Look at the new sets that have been gained, and see what those all offer. Three of Modern's decks in particular are either seriously improved or flat out new.
1) Hypergenesis, gaining Chancellor of the Annex and Tangle. Annex is particularly stupid in that deck, as it effectively Time Walks the opponent and makes the combo even harder to disrupt. Tangle allows for random turn 1 wins, or even turn 0 wins with Violent Outburst and Guide.
2) UW Stoneforge never existed in the old Extended. It does now, and that's a problem. The deck is extremely strong, both in Modern and Overextended. The big difference is that Overextended has more ways to fight it, both cards and archetypes. Stoneforge, Jace, Batterskull, Swords; these did not exist in the 2010 Extended season. That makes this deck totally different.
3) Twelvepost. It's scary in both formats, but with a smaller Modern card pool, it's even scarier. Tech such as Rith's Charm and Destructive Flow just do not exist in the format, which makes Twelvepost even more likely to run rampant. Rishadan Port and Dust Bowl also do not exist, and with a Masques cutoff, these would also be cards that could slow down the powerful Twelvepost engine.
As a whole, sure, Modern has similarities to old Extended. But this is a new format with new threats, and the list above shows three decks that are particularly problematic in Modern tournaments. Of course, we can't know for sure, because Wizards has not actually tested the new format in an honest setting with no artificial constraints. Overextended has already passed the diversity test, as each weekly tournament attests to. If Modern does this as well, then I would be a lot more on board with it. But without a real test of format health, we can't just say that "Modern is going to be healthy like old Extended." We have no evidence to suggest that. This is especially problematic because the PT San Juan season qualifier season of 2010 was part of the reason that Wizards had to revamp Extended anyway!
-ktkenshinx-
Hypergenesis and Stoneforge Mystic should probably both be banned.
There is also a very, very easy answer for Twelve Post in Modern. I'm astonished no one's running BBZ.
Stoneforge is a fair card that goes in fair decks
I choked on my drink reading this. If you're putting Stoneforge in fair decks, you are doing it wrong.
http://www.deckcheck.de/event.php?id=4210
The last (or one of the last) big events before the change. That looks nothing like pre-ban Standard. There's lots of diversity there.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
My point with all this is. Just because a card isn't on the reserved list doesn't mean they will "reprint anything". They can reprint cards like Wasteland and Force of Will All day long but they haven't. (They reprinted Wasteland as a judge foil recently, but that isn't widely available or printed in mass numbers) Or they could throw in Sinkhole, or Rishadan Port out there as well. We haven't even seen any of the goblins from the goblin deck get reprinted like Goblin Piledriver it's not resereved? what gives?
They could get around the reserve list if they wanted to. Why not make a product that has "new" dual lands in them? They can make Snow Covered Dual lands if they wanted to, throw them in a Legacy only package, then on the same day Ban the old duals so the new ones would be the only ones you could use in Legacy and be done with it. They won't do this because they want players to play with the cards they already own and it would be inelegant, but it is a solution, and one that would work far more then "modern" would.
There will never be a duel deck style product that contains a Tarmogoyf or even other "chase" mythics that will eventually find their way to the tops of this proposed format. I don't understand the need for another format myself. I get it that money is a driving factor to people wanting a different format to play. That's fine. What isn't fine is making up excuses why you believe the format will exist. There is no precedence that a "community cup" format has to be a "real" format. Where is BYOS? I would love to see that format become official. Or even a yearly "rotating old Standard" format. Even every Ban/Restricted update change the Rotating Standard format. That would be incredibly fun. Keep everything fresh.
If they do decide to do "modern" that is cool too. But I just don't really understand why people want this format. It isn't going to be played at FNM (which is why Standard is so popular) and it won't be a format at SCG opens (even if it is, they are not abandoning Legacy).
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I do agree that Tarmogoyf is a big problem for Modern, and I would actually just ban in straight out of the gate because, as you said, it's un-reprintable.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
It's fine to want an eternal format that is sustainable. But just because they have the opportunity to print cards to demand, doesn't mean they actually will. They have yet to print cards "to demand" of cards that they can print. Why would that change with a new format?
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I would argue that Jace and Stoneforge are bigger problems than Tarmogoyf will ever be.
Tarmogoyf's problem is one unique to Modern. It's essentially on the reserved list, as no viable way of reprinting it exists. It's not so much a power level issue as it is a barrier to entry issue for the format that can be avoided if the card's never legal to begin with.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
What's funny is that if the t2-legal fetches were allowed to rotate without reprint, Tarmo could be reprinted in a core set without significantly more standard impact than leatherback baloth. (and even frequently being a worse mana-to-power tradeoff)
He's best when formats involve a lot of plays on early turns which populate the graveyard. In formats where this is not true, he's good-but-not-amazing. Even in legacy, his power level will reduce as the popularity of JTMS increases. He will always be great in aggro strategies in eternal formats, but as the primary 2-drop for control decks, SFM is frequently getting the nod over him.
Just saying, I can see him at 40$ instead of 60$ in 1-2 years even without a reprint. A reprint might drive him to 30$. (e.g. current chase mythic)
All of this is within the realm of possibility. He's just not that much better than current cards anymore. He might _define_ a standard environment where he's reprinted, and drive people away from red removal, but he wouldn't necessarily break it.
It could be printed in From the Vault, Duel Decks, Multiplayer precons, or even printed as a promo. And as other have said, it could be in Standard without TOO much of a problem.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
I have really tried, on these forums and others, to puzzle through Modern vs. Overextended, analyzing the pros and cons of both. In every case, there is just no good reason that I can see to support Modern instead of Overextended. It's not that my support for the format is clouding my analysis. It's that my support for the format is based in a lot of analyses, and I do not want to see Modern take the stage over something that is clearly better.
Magic has a lot at stake in this format, and I just hope that it comes out as optimally as possible for the players and for the game. Modern does not represent that optimal format, because of an arbitrary starting point and substantially less card and deck diversity. Overextended, on the other hand, has a convincing and historically important starting point at Masques, and includes way more cards.
All in all, Modern is better than nothing. But at the moment, you really can't say "modern is diverse" when there has been no real and honest test of its diversity and health. The Community Cup does not show any real diversity because of its unique rules. If someone has evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it! But Overextended has plenty of evidence to show its own health and diversity, and that is what I base my support off of. I hope others do the same.
-ktkenshinx-
The advantage of Modern over any of the other format types is that WOTC has taken a direct interest. That is the only reason anyone needs - WOTC is much more willing to been interested in internal projects then external projects formed from ideas.
And while I agree that forced diversity is negligible at best in terms of results, if the Hypergenisis is banned, I do not think diversity will be an issue.
Tarmogoyf could easily be printed in some ancillary product like a duel deck, a standalone product, heck they could've easily put goyf in some of the commander decks and in commander goyf is completely fair due to how slow the format is. Hell, they even reprinted skullclamp in the BGW commander deck and guess what the consensus on skullclamp is? It's broken. More broken than tarmogoyf at least since it's been banned in every format except vintage. If wotc really wanted to reprint goyf they could find a way and probably make boatloads of money off of the product he was printed in.
On modern vs. overextended. Overextended has a larger card pool and generally that lends to more diversity than a smaller card pool. I want overextended a lot more than modern also because invasion block overall was a very good, well designed block. Invasion is also a multicolor block like Ravnica and is very enjoyable. It also has some powerful cards but are there any broken cards in it? No.
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Why not make Modern a real PTQ season format? Certainly, it would be better than this new and bad extended..
This is true. Wizards has definitely taken its own initiative with the Modern cutoff, and that gives it a leg up in that particular area. They are certainly more likely to consider their own format, because that reinforces their credibility and authority.
But that said, Magic has had two formats that were completely player made, ones that Wizards adopted. T1.5 became Legacy and EDH became Commander. Sure, these formats were not competing with one of Wizards' own formats. But they heard players! They listened to the community and its desires and they acted in the greater interest!
It is EASIER to support Modern. It is not the best format, but it is the easy way out. In fact, to support Modern, all you have to do is vote in a poll and that's it. But to support Overextended (which has so much more going for it), you need to commit a bit more. That commitment is what can drive a truly excellent eternal format that will withstand the test of time. NONE of this is to demean those players who have gone the extra mile in supporting Modern (the Modern supporters on MTGS all go this distance). But there is much more to be gained in Overextended, and the worry is that a lot of people don't go out and support Overextended because it looks like Modern has already won. This is not true. Wizards will listen to the community if the community makes its voice heard.
Always remember Tom LaPille's quote, on behalf of Wizards:
"As I said, many of you have called for a non-rotating format that doesn't have the card availability problems of Legacy. We propose Modern as that format.
This represents only a proposal and an experiment."
-ktkenshinx-
Rav/TS standard is not ZEN/SOM standard. Tarmo WAS absolutely amazing, for the same reasons he's amazing in legacy.
My point was that in a standard environment like this 1st half 2011, Tarmo would not have made waves because he fails the same tests every other undercosted green beater failed, and the format revolved around killing 2cc creatures. For example, I've seen t2 myr superion against caw be completely underwhelming, and that's bigger than tarmo ever is on t2 in standard. Now I'm not saying superion is good like Tarmo, just that in the corner cases where superion actually hit the board t2, it was never all that impressive against JTMS.dec.
I'm not saying he wouldn't have been played, I'm just saying he wouldn't have defined the THIS YEAR's standard format or been the highest value mythic in it.
No, it can't.
FTV would not impact the secondary price one bit. Those are limited edition print runs.
It cannot be printed in a Duel Deck or Event Deck because the card's worth $60+ and would cause the deck to be sold for 3x MSRP.
Promos, again, would not make a difference on the value.
And no, it would be a massive problem if it showed up in Standard again. It's an absurdly powerful card that's far better than it should be fore two mana.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
How on earth can you say that when Modern was a PTQ format a year ago! Modern is what Extended was in the PT: San Juan qualifier season, with most of the degenerate combos banned! There's tons of playtesting put into the format already because the format once existed! You're seeing what you want to see.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Eh, Dark Confidant is pretty much the same in that if you untap with it, you probably just win. counterspells and removal will be prevalent enough to keep both in check I think, or just comboing out and ignoring either of those altogether.
the fire - I will become the flame." - Lim-Dรปl, the Necromancer
That's not even remotely true. The "cost" of Dark Confidant, especially with Top banned, is that it forces you to run a very low mana curve in your deck in order to not get yourself blown up by his ability. Stoneforge is problematic because not only is it a tutor, it's also Aether Vial. They indicated the debate was between banning Stoneforge or Jitte, and it's looking like if those are still the options, that Stoneforge is the card that needs to go.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Is standard post ban the same format as it was before?
Modern has a longer ban list than old extended. And it has 4 more sets, and more each year, without rotations. Different formats are different.
Mystic should go, and Jitte should be unbanned IMO.
Have you seen any of the Legacy GWB Junk decks that run Bob? Their curve usually tops out at 3 for Knight of the Reliquary. I highly doubt any competitive Modern deck is going to have a curve with anything over 4 mana that it intends to cast "fairly".
Card advantage wins games on it's own, not to mention there are ways to either gain life back or just kill off the Bob if your life gets too low.
Stoneforge is a fair card that goes in fair decks. Wizards does not ban these kind of cards unless it will be utterly format-warping. If it doesn't dominate in Extended then it for sure will not in Modern. There are plenty of powerful "fair" cards to keep it in check, let's not forget Bloodbraid Elf into Maelstrom Pulse/Blightning is in the format.
the fire - I will become the flame." - Lim-Dรปl, the Necromancer
Modern has old decks and new decks. It is silly to think that Modern is the exact same format as old Extended, especially when a variety of new cards clearly show that this is not true. I understand that you want to disagree with me, but look at the decklists in the format and see how different they are. Look at the new sets that have been gained, and see what those all offer. Three of Modern's decks in particular are either seriously improved or flat out new.
1) Hypergenesis, gaining Chancellor of the Annex and Tangle. Annex is particularly stupid in that deck, as it effectively Time Walks the opponent and makes the combo even harder to disrupt. Tangle allows for random turn 1 wins, or even turn 0 wins with Violent Outburst and Guide.
2) UW Stoneforge never existed in the old Extended. It does now, and that's a problem. The deck is extremely strong, both in Modern and Overextended. The big difference is that Overextended has more ways to fight it, both cards and archetypes. Stoneforge, Jace, Batterskull, Swords; these did not exist in the 2010 Extended season. That makes this deck totally different.
3) Twelvepost. It's scary in both formats, but with a smaller Modern card pool, it's even scarier. Tech such as Rith's Charm and Destructive Flow just do not exist in the format, which makes Twelvepost even more likely to run rampant. Rishadan Port and Dust Bowl also do not exist, and with a Masques cutoff, these would also be cards that could slow down the powerful Twelvepost engine.
As a whole, sure, Modern has similarities to old Extended. But this is a new format with new threats, and the list above shows three decks that are particularly problematic in Modern tournaments. Of course, we can't know for sure, because Wizards has not actually tested the new format in an honest setting with no artificial constraints. Overextended has already passed the diversity test, as each weekly tournament attests to. If Modern does this as well, then I would be a lot more on board with it. But without a real test of format health, we can't just say that "Modern is going to be healthy like old Extended." We have no evidence to suggest that. This is especially problematic because the PT San Juan season qualifier season of 2010 was part of the reason that Wizards had to revamp Extended anyway!
-ktkenshinx-
Promos and FTVs aren't printed in massive enough quantities. I just don't see them throwing a Tarmo in a Duel deck or Multiplayer precon, it is that powerful. I could maybe i see it in a "Premium deck" but I'm not sure what the theme would be, other than "We gotta print staples, yo".
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Hypergenesis and Stoneforge Mystic should probably both be banned.
There is also a very, very easy answer for Twelve Post in Modern. I'm astonished no one's running BBZ.
I choked on my drink reading this. If you're putting Stoneforge in fair decks, you are doing it wrong.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)