I think the overextended format proposed by Gavin V starts at Invasion. At least in his original article. Part of the reasoning to exclude masques was that it wouldnt 'feel' like legacy but add extra deck archetypes that were too slow for legacy but would be excluded if starting at mirrodin or legacy. I feel more is better. Smaller format will be faerieblade plus few others. Reason legacy is popular is that it has so much variety. Yes eventually more cards will enter but in beginning it might be dominated by certain archetypes like standard and previous extended sometimes was. Some people prefer that - I would prefer it to be like legacy variety without the huge costs.
I think the overextended format proposed by Gavin V starts at Invasion. At least in his original article. Part of the reasoning to exclude masques was that it wouldnt 'feel' like legacy but add extra deck archetypes that were too slow for legacy but would be excluded if starting at mirrodin or legacy. I feel more is better. Smaller format will be faerieblade plus few others. Reason legacy is popular is that it has so much variety. Yes eventually more cards will enter but in beginning it might be dominated by certain archetypes like standard and previous extended sometimes was. Some people prefer that - I would prefer it to be like legacy variety without the huge costs.
I am active on that site, and the biggest reason that the Invasion cutoff was determined was Masques' unvailability on MTGO. Other than that reason, it is pretty arbitrary to choose Invasion as a cutoff over Masques. I do not speak for Gavin here, but I do know that many players on that site (myself included) will happily switch to the MM cutoff once MTGO gets the set.
Masques is just overall the historically significant cutoff point that a new eternal format deserves. Fears about "Legacy Lite" are totally unjustified, given the outrageous diversity of Overextended right now. Only Dark Ritual and Brainstorm could change that, one of which will definitely be banned, and the other of which could easily be banned if it caused problems. Even with Brainstorm around, I sincerely doubt it would make the format look like Legacy. It would just supplement the existent Overextended decks and make them slightly stronger.
I don't see the problem with MM forward, since WotC has reprinted several of the "contested" cards - such as Brainstorm, Counterspell, Dark Ritual, and Daze - in recently released product, increasing their availability. Which just goes to show what can be available outside the Reserved List.
As far as Core Sets, Classic/6th has too many overpowered color hosers (Light of Day, Chill, Perish, Boil, etc.), as well as the Mirage Tutor cycle, 'Geddon, Jokulhaups, and Power Sink (still one of my favorite counters). 7th is less abusive and closer to the modern color philosophies, so would be a better place to start.
Modern has the right idea for a new Eternal format. It just needs a better starting point, and Masques/7th still appears to be the best spot.
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Player A tells the newb player B if he wants to join his Modern playgroup.
A - So wanna join to play Modern? Much better than $tandard, more fun and more cheap?
B - Ok but what cards can I play? I started to play 3 months ago.
A - Any card with the modern card frame. It's just that easy.
B - Sounds good. I was worried because I couldn't play competitive $tandard without spending 350$ on 4 cards to see them rotate some months later. And legacy, I asked for the price of the duals and thought it was a joke.
Player A tells the newb player B if he wants to join his Modern playgroup.
A - So wanna join to play Modern? Much better than $tandard, more fun and more cheap?
B - Ok but what cards can I play? I started to play 3 months ago.
A - Any card with the modern card frame. It's just that easy.
B - Sounds good. I was worried because I couldn't play competitive $tandard without spending 350$ on 4 cards to see them rotate some months later. And legacy, I asked for the price of the duals and thought it was a joke.
Player A tells the newb player B if he wants to join his Modern playgroup.
A - So wanna join to play Modern? Much better than $tandard, more fun and more cheap?
B - Ok but what cards can I play? I started to play 3 months ago.
A - Any card with the modern card frame. It's just that easy.
B - Sounds good. I was worried because I couldn't play competitive $tandard without spending 350$ on 4 cards to see them rotate some months later. And legacy, I asked for the price of the duals and thought it was a joke.
This test doesn't even work. There are dozens of cards that have modern card frames but are not legal, as fnord said. In order for them to realize this, that player is going to have to look up individual cards, and at that point, they might as well just look at set legality.
Also, this is just a generally unrealistic scenario. This is the internet age. Players are capable of knowing dozens of archetypes in any given format, as well as complicated and arbitrary banlists in Legacy and Vintage. They are also capable of understanding old Extended rotations. We are a wired Magic generation, and we can easily look up things like set legality just as easily as we can search for techy cards with Gatherer.
It is ridiculous to think that Magic players need a visual aid to help them choose sets. If a player is so new as to need to look up the cards, then he is definitely not going to realize that a huge range of cards from duel decks and promo events are also not legal. Pernicious Deed? Dark Ritual? Daze? Wild Mongrel? All of these are legal to that player. But if you think that he is smart enough to look up the cards and check legality, then you must also realize he is smart enough to do that no matter what the cutoff is. Visual aids are not really aids. They either demean Magic player intelligence, or provide a false test for new players.
so when are we going to start up a modern magic tournaments in real life, this thread is getting long, so either people are excited or pissed, which ever doesn't matter that much to me. They can be as they want. I would like to see modern magic to happen. Wizards made EDH a official format why not make another format that people can play in more easily? If you are a new player you can't get into vintage, or legacy, even if you aren't a new player you probably won't be able to get into those formats anyway. Prices are way too high. It's also super lame to play in both of those formats with wins in games by turn 2.
I wish wizards held constructed block tournaments but they don't, I'm very sure that it has been dropped forever as a format. Modern magic can easily sweep away block forever into memory. Hey just keeping talking about it guys, then Modern magic can be next years print run of decks/new formats like commander, or it can just exist.
Hey now, Modern Hypergenesis decks can have an Emrakul on turn 1, so if that's what bothers you, stay away.
That being said, turn 1 or 2 wins in Vintage and Legacy are very uncommon, just because the other decks have the nessiary tools to stop them. This isn't the case in modern, so you're actually better off in legacy if that's your issue
Wouldn't this not be any cheaper than Standard? I mean people will find the dominate archetypes and all the cards will rise in price.
Magic really needs to do something to keep formats affordable. It's just pure crazy the amount of money you have to spend to have a fighting chance.
They need to start reprinting cards, screw the collectors.
Magic affordability is relative. Modern/Overextended intend on being new eternal formats that are relatively affordable when compared to Legacy and Vintage. Ravnica shocklands, if not reprinted, might hit the $50 mark, but that is way better than the absurd $130 that the original duals are running. If they get reprinted, then this will be considerably more reasonable.
An eternal format is always going to be expensive, as is a card game where there is supply, demand, and scarce resources. Modern/Overextended are aiming to be more affordable than Legacy/Vintage. They are not trying to be the cheapest formats ever, nor are they trying to be cheaper formats when compared to Standard. They are just a new affordable bar for eternal formats.
Honestly... what is the definition of a broken card?
I always thought that it was a card that would be forced into almost any deck and when it hits the table it's like a ****storm just bliksemmed the card's opponent.
Something like Skullclamp, Necropotence was?
Even though I don't doubt that Jace is close to that in Standard, but surely Modern and Legacy have tonnes of answers to it?
Just love how people are like OMG Jace is the best ever. LOL, play legacy and watch him get bent, seriously people. Yes he is strong but not broken.
On topic Modern seems ok for people that started with the new border. I will never play it, since i would have to toss 1/2 my cards away. That is what happens when you have played for 15+ years.
I discounted overextended because the cut off point was invasion because of MTGO.
Was it changed to Mercadian Masques recently?
If so, Bravo I say, I would be interested.
Its the only really logical cut off point, end of reserve list anything that gets too expensive can be reprinted in some way, nuff said.
I mean the whole point is to mirror the success of legacy but with out the massive price tag and that is the most logical way to do it.
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Magic affordability is relative. Modern/Overextended intend on being new eternal formats that are relatively affordable when compared to Legacy and Vintage. Ravnica shocklands, if not reprinted, might hit the $50 mark, but that is way better than the absurd $130 that the original duals are running. If they get reprinted, then this will be considerably more reasonable.
An eternal format is always going to be expensive, as is a card game where there is supply, demand, and scarce resources. Modern/Overextended are aiming to be more affordable than Legacy/Vintage. They are not trying to be the cheapest formats ever, nor are they trying to be cheaper formats when compared to Standard. They are just a new affordable bar for eternal formats.
-ktkenshinx-
More original duals are no where near $130. Maybe Trop. Isle and Underground River, but other than those two they can all be had under $100, and at least 5 of the 10 can be had for under $50.
I discounted overextended because the cut off point was invasion because of MTGO.
Was it changed to Mercadian Masques recently?
If so, Bravo I say, I would be interested.
Its the only really logical cut off point, end of reserve list anything that gets too expensive can be reprinted in some way, nuff said.
I mean the whole point is to mirror the success of legacy but with out the massive price tag and that is the most logical way to do it.
There was a lot of discussion on the Overextended website about the Masques/Invasion cutoff argument. Once MTGO gets MM, then there will almost assuredly be a switch to a Masques cutoff. But until then, I think it looks like it will stay at Invasion. With stronger voices, however, that could definitely change in the interim. I personally want a Masques cutoff as soon as possible, because it is symbolic and historically significant. It contributes to the growth and popularity of the format.
More original duals are no where near $130. Maybe Trop. Isle and Underground River, but other than those two they can all be had under $100, and at least 5 of the 10 can be had for under $50.
Sea, Isle, and Tundra are all around the 100 dollar mark if you get good ebay deals. Buying them direct from online dealers is going to run up the cost by at least 20. Those price tags have been running up steadily for two years now and they aren't going to stop. And the other duals? If you aren't playing Blue in Legacy, you better have a darn good reason, and with the exception of Merfolk (no duals), Goblins (either Taiga or no duals), Belcher (Taiga/Bayou), and BW midrange decks (Scrubland), there are really no contenders that roll with the other duals. So the fact that those are worth less than 50 in some cases is really not important.
There was a lot of discussion on the Overextended website about the Masques/Invasion cutoff argument. Once MTGO gets MM, then there will almost assuredly be a switch to a Masques cutoff. But until then, I think it looks like it will stay at Invasion. With stronger voices, however, that could definitely change in the interim. I personally want a Masques cutoff as soon as possible, because it is symbolic and historically significant. It contributes to the growth and popularity of the format.
Sea, Isle, and Tundra are all around the 100 dollar mark if you get good ebay deals. Buying them direct from online dealers is going to run up the cost by at least 20. Those price tags have been running up steadily for two years now and they aren't going to stop. And the other duals? If you aren't playing Blue in Legacy, you better have a darn good reason, and with the exception of Merfolk (no duals), Goblins (either Taiga or no duals), Belcher (Taiga/Bayou), and BW midrange decks (Scrubland), there are really no contenders that roll with the other duals. So the fact that those are worth less than 50 in some cases is really not important.
If WoTC is smart what they will do is announce a set of reprints to go along side with any Modern Magic format. Take the obvious key cards in the format and let everyone know they will be reprinted within the next year when they officially start to support the format. This way they can reprint the cards while prices are low which should make everyone happy. Also reprinting the cards while a lot of them aren't being used by players, they are just sitting in binders, is a lot easier for players to swallow. This might also may make stores more receptive of supporting modern magic as they will have sealed product to sell for the format along with singles.
As an external format gets older card prices obviously rise and this makes reprinting cards harder, at least on the scale that is needed, by scale I mean the number of cards not quantity. Imagine modern takes off and is even bigger than legacy and WoTC decided to reprint the twenty most expensive cards in modern five years in the future at the same time without having a limited print-run, many players would be upset. When cards get expensive WoTC has to be careful how many they reprint per year if they really want to print them in the quantities that will affect the price of cards.
Honestly, I don't care too much if it's invasion forward or mirrodin forward provided they ban the right cards. What I don't want is masques, because they would have to ban brainstorm, dark ritual, rishadan port, misdirection, and others I don't remember now. And the non-ban worthy are useless. Yes some cards would be lost like rebels but that is gonna happen no matter where you draw the line.
Invasion forward would mean vindicate and pernicious deed would be legal and its prices would skyrocket unless reprinted (that is not a problem if they do). But I see a little problem with the deed because it has the old design of destroying creatures artifacts and enchantments instead of nonlands, destroying manlands for example.
And odyssey would bring standstill, which I don't like. The only reason I don't like mirrodin forward is the original fetches and stifle are out, but they can be reprinted in a core set one of these years.
I don't understand the mass amounts of complaining about the format starting with Mirrodin/8th. To me it makes perfect sense because that is the time when the Modern idea of inter-block design started. It is also when a lot of the Modern design practices came in. Not to mention its not that hard to find out what cards are legal in the format if you have any doubts. Cards like Wild Mongrel having a version with the modern frame isn't that big of a deal because the vast majority of people playing this format are likely to be people who are into the competitive scene anyway and will most likely know what blocks are legal.
Honestly, I don't care too much if it's invasion forward or mirrodin forward provided they ban the right cards. What I don't want is masques, because they would have to ban brainstorm, dark ritual, rishadan port, misdirection, and others I don't remember now. And the non-ban worthy are useless. Yes some cards would be lost like rebels but that is gonna happen no matter where you draw the line.
Invasion forward would mean vindicate and pernicious deed would be legal and its prices would skyrocket unless reprinted (that is not a problem if they do). But I see a little problem with the deed because it has the old design of destroying creatures artifacts and enchantments instead of nonlands, destroying manlands for example.
And odyssey would bring standstill, which I don't like. The only reason I don't like mirrodin forward is the original fetches and stifle are out, but they can be reprinted in a core set one of these years.
The only card in Masques that absolutely must get banned is Dark Ritual. Other than that, however, the other cards are up in the air. Rishadan Port is a 2 mana Wasteland effectively, which is far from unfair. Misdirection is a free counterspell only against other counterspells. All the other cards in the Masques block are simply not ban worthy even if they are powerful (Unmask, Land Grant, Dust Bowl, Tangle Wire, Daze, etc.).
Then there is the Brainstorm issue. This is really something that comes down to testing and tournament results. If Brainstorm becomes too nutty and goes the route of Vintage, then it can be banned. But if it is just one more tool that blue has, but it does not really put up tournament numbers, then it can stay off the banlist. Worst case scenario sees Masques block with both Brainstorm and Dark Ritual banned, but a whole slew of other cards legal and ready to help the format grow.
As to the price of Deed/Vindicate, this is a silly argument. No matter what set a new eternal format starts at, there are going to be expensive staples. By that logic we should not include Ravnica and Future Sight because Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf are going to be chase rares and shoot up in value. Obviously this is a silly idea, but it is the logical extension of the whole "avoid a block because it could make cards expensive" argument.
I don't understand the mass amounts of complaining about the format starting with Mirrodin/8th. To me it makes perfect sense because that is the time when the Modern idea of inter-block design started. It is also when a lot of the Modern design practices came in. Not to mention its not that hard to find out what cards are legal in the format if you have any doubts. Cards like Wild Mongrel having a version with the modern frame isn't that big of a deal because the vast majority of people playing this format are likely to be people who are into the competitive scene anyway and will most likely know what blocks are legal.
There are two points in regards to this. On the subject of cards like Wild Mongrel, Wizards is arguing that the vast majority of people on the competitive scene DO NOT know what cards are legal and what sets came out in what years. By their own logic, the players would not know about Mongrel being part of Odyssey. If we are willing to concede that players are smart enough to know when Mongrel and other promo/duel cards were originally printed, then we also must concede that they are smart enough to build decks without a visual aid period. This is the internet era! The Magic community thrives on forums, online programs, online stores, Gatherer, etc. People are going to know legality and they do not need a silly visual aid to help them.
The Modern ideas, like interblock design, color pie refining, power creep, etc., pale in comparison to Masques' abolition of the Reserve List. The Reserve List is the one thing that holds Legacy back (and Vintage for that matter), and starting an eternal format here would ensure that the format is historically significant and appealing. It will withstand the test of time if it has a timeless starting point. For years to come, players will appreciate what the Masques cutoff means, but a Mirrodin cutoff is an arbitrary and meaningless point without serious justification and rationalization.
The starting set has already been decided anyways. They are not gonna change it because some people want it somewhere else... People wanted EDH but they changed it to commander. You get the idea. Plus it's Forsythe's election, good luck :D.
THe thing is, no matter where we start the format, it will ALWAYS be arbitary.
Masques? First Reprintable set. Arbitrary.
IPA? First "Modern Magic Philosophy" Block? Arbitrary.
Mirrodin? New Frames? Arbitrary.
That being said, it is a little unfortunate that there is the potential for confusion ala Dual Decks, but that's the price we pay for a reasonable and affordable Eternal Format.
How is Masques arbitrary? You admit that it is the "first reprintable set", the set that does away with the Reserve List. This Reserve List is the big issue that holds eternal formats like Legacy and Vintage back. A new eternal format that explicitly addressed that problem and symbolically got rid of it would be highly successful. As to prices, no matter where the cutoff is, prices are going to be high for staples unless Wizards reprints them. This is as true for Vindicate/Rishadan Port as it is for Tarmogoyf/Dark Confidant.
The starting set has already been decided anyways. They are not gonna change it because some people want it somewhere else... People wanted EDH but they changed it to commander. You get the idea. Plus it's Forsythe's election, good luck :D.
Here is a quote from Tom LaPille's article. He clearly says that: "This represents only a proposal and an experiment." (Source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/144). Modern is just a proposed idea, one particular way that the format can look. The community can rally to change that and direct Wizards' attention towards the real historical cutoff point, the one that will make this new eternal format popular and significant: Masques block. Community support can do this because Wizards has not set the format in stone. They are very clear about this, and I for one am willing to fight for this new format to be the best that it can possibly be.
When they say it's an experiment I don't think they refer to the starting point, but the format as a whole, with that they are saying that this won't be straight a format, but something they will try at the community cup to see how it goes and recollect people's opinions on the forums. To see if it would be a total failure or not. But I'm fairly certain the starting point was decided after some thought and won't change. My opinion ofc. I don't care too much on the starting point as long as they do create the format because this is taking too long already.
Nothing would NEED to be banned from masques. Ritual isn't that hot if you have banned the true storm offenders Tendril and Desire. Dragonstorm would probably play it, probably not since it has already enough rituals and it want to combo out T4 anyway. Cascade combo can't use it. Elf can't use it. Turbo-post wouldn't use it. Scapeshift/Valakut wouldn't use it. The only deck that would use it would be suicide variants like Eva and Red death. Unless they keep tendril unbanned, and then the format goes stupid. But the real culprit is tendril. Ritual was around for YEARS in old extended and didn't break anything aside from Necro that was broken by itself. In Masques Rebel was the broken deck, not a ritual deck.
Port is a lot like a Wasteland that cost 1 to activate. It isn't broken in the slightest. It allows fast deck to play additional disruption for their mid-game against slower decks.
Dust Bowl is slow as hell.
Gush when you don't have duals/exploration/fastbond is decent, but not good nor broken.
Brainstorm is the only card whose power level is retarded. However, since brainstorm is mostly a card quality engine, it can live in the format until it make blue too dominant, which i don't think would be the case in a post masques format with shocklands. Blue really need duals to properly function as alone just can't cut it in modern formats.
Misdirection is a niche card that isn't that played even in legacy with 24+ FoW each T8. It would be a cute sb cards in case certain strategy becomes too dominant.
Daze, like gush, is so much weaker with shocklands instead of duals.
All those people saying that MM would make for a "legacy lite" don't know what they're talking about. What define the power level of legacy are duals paired with fetches. With shocklands, control and aggro control as in Legacy would be unplayable. If you ban tendril and desire, combining this with the absence of Petal and LED, storm combo would be downright unplayable outside of dragonstorm which has a T4 goldfish and would be legal anyway even with a mirrodin cutoff. Belcher is unplayable without ESG, petal and LED.
Legacy is a format where blue is splashed in 90% of decks due to fetch+brainstorm+FoW+MM and where 60% of the decks are tri-colored due to super-easy manabases (with a good 20% being merfolk to hate blue decks). A MM onward eternal wouldn't be like legacy AT ALL.
Finally, the cards that people say would give an impression of "legacy lite" are all common cards (brainstorm, ritual) that people have, love and will want to play.
At first I thought you needed to do Masques up, but now that I think about it, there are too many cards of a degenerate power level prior to Mirrodin (Which isn't to say mirrodin was balanced lol but at least they are aware of the offending cards). I play Legacy dredge, so I acknowledge being unable to transplant my deck by starting with Mirrodin. That being said, it means that we'll all be able to play decks that aren't necessarily as fast as Storm combo.
I think the only things I'd like to see added to the banned list are: Aether Vial because of the way it enables Merfolk and Zoo, and Hypergenesis for just painfully obvious reasons.
I would like to see the artifact lands unbanned with Cranial Plating banned instead.
I would also like to see aether vial banned.
Stoneforge might get a ban, but I doubt it. Either way, Jitte should come off.
Also, Dark Depths should come off. It's simply not as good without Thopter/Sword, although wizards is afraid of turn 2 combo wins so maybe they won't unban it (although banning this and not hyper is kind of silly, no?)
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I am active on that site, and the biggest reason that the Invasion cutoff was determined was Masques' unvailability on MTGO. Other than that reason, it is pretty arbitrary to choose Invasion as a cutoff over Masques. I do not speak for Gavin here, but I do know that many players on that site (myself included) will happily switch to the MM cutoff once MTGO gets the set.
Masques is just overall the historically significant cutoff point that a new eternal format deserves. Fears about "Legacy Lite" are totally unjustified, given the outrageous diversity of Overextended right now. Only Dark Ritual and Brainstorm could change that, one of which will definitely be banned, and the other of which could easily be banned if it caused problems. Even with Brainstorm around, I sincerely doubt it would make the format look like Legacy. It would just supplement the existent Overextended decks and make them slightly stronger.
-ktkenshinx-
As far as Core Sets, Classic/6th has too many overpowered color hosers (Light of Day, Chill, Perish, Boil, etc.), as well as the Mirage Tutor cycle, 'Geddon, Jokulhaups, and Power Sink (still one of my favorite counters). 7th is less abusive and closer to the modern color philosophies, so would be a better place to start.
Modern has the right idea for a new Eternal format. It just needs a better starting point, and Masques/7th still appears to be the best spot.
A - So wanna join to play Modern? Much better than $tandard, more fun and more cheap?
B - Ok but what cards can I play? I started to play 3 months ago.
A - Any card with the modern card frame. It's just that easy.
B - Sounds good. I was worried because I couldn't play competitive $tandard without spending 350$ on 4 cards to see them rotate some months later. And legacy, I asked for the price of the duals and thought it was a joke.
Then Player B shows up at a tournament with cards like Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Demonic Tutor, Sol Ring, etc.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
This test doesn't even work. There are dozens of cards that have modern card frames but are not legal, as fnord said. In order for them to realize this, that player is going to have to look up individual cards, and at that point, they might as well just look at set legality.
Also, this is just a generally unrealistic scenario. This is the internet age. Players are capable of knowing dozens of archetypes in any given format, as well as complicated and arbitrary banlists in Legacy and Vintage. They are also capable of understanding old Extended rotations. We are a wired Magic generation, and we can easily look up things like set legality just as easily as we can search for techy cards with Gatherer.
It is ridiculous to think that Magic players need a visual aid to help them choose sets. If a player is so new as to need to look up the cards, then he is definitely not going to realize that a huge range of cards from duel decks and promo events are also not legal. Pernicious Deed? Dark Ritual? Daze? Wild Mongrel? All of these are legal to that player. But if you think that he is smart enough to look up the cards and check legality, then you must also realize he is smart enough to do that no matter what the cutoff is. Visual aids are not really aids. They either demean Magic player intelligence, or provide a false test for new players.
-ktkenshinx-
Player B plays a non-monoblack non-controlblue deck
Hey now, Modern Hypergenesis decks can have an Emrakul on turn 1, so if that's what bothers you, stay away.
That being said, turn 1 or 2 wins in Vintage and Legacy are very uncommon, just because the other decks have the nessiary tools to stop them. This isn't the case in modern, so you're actually better off in legacy if that's your issue
Magic really needs to do something to keep formats affordable. It's just pure crazy the amount of money you have to spend to have a fighting chance.
They need to start reprinting cards, screw the collectors.
Magic affordability is relative. Modern/Overextended intend on being new eternal formats that are relatively affordable when compared to Legacy and Vintage. Ravnica shocklands, if not reprinted, might hit the $50 mark, but that is way better than the absurd $130 that the original duals are running. If they get reprinted, then this will be considerably more reasonable.
An eternal format is always going to be expensive, as is a card game where there is supply, demand, and scarce resources. Modern/Overextended are aiming to be more affordable than Legacy/Vintage. They are not trying to be the cheapest formats ever, nor are they trying to be cheaper formats when compared to Standard. They are just a new affordable bar for eternal formats.
-ktkenshinx-
Just love how people are like OMG Jace is the best ever. LOL, play legacy and watch him get bent, seriously people. Yes he is strong but not broken.
On topic Modern seems ok for people that started with the new border. I will never play it, since i would have to toss 1/2 my cards away. That is what happens when you have played for 15+ years.
I discounted overextended because the cut off point was invasion because of MTGO.
Was it changed to Mercadian Masques recently?
If so, Bravo I say, I would be interested.
Its the only really logical cut off point, end of reserve list anything that gets too expensive can be reprinted in some way, nuff said.
I mean the whole point is to mirror the success of legacy but with out the massive price tag and that is the most logical way to do it.
More original duals are no where near $130. Maybe Trop. Isle and Underground River, but other than those two they can all be had under $100, and at least 5 of the 10 can be had for under $50.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
There was a lot of discussion on the Overextended website about the Masques/Invasion cutoff argument. Once MTGO gets MM, then there will almost assuredly be a switch to a Masques cutoff. But until then, I think it looks like it will stay at Invasion. With stronger voices, however, that could definitely change in the interim. I personally want a Masques cutoff as soon as possible, because it is symbolic and historically significant. It contributes to the growth and popularity of the format.
Sea, Isle, and Tundra are all around the 100 dollar mark if you get good ebay deals. Buying them direct from online dealers is going to run up the cost by at least 20. Those price tags have been running up steadily for two years now and they aren't going to stop. And the other duals? If you aren't playing Blue in Legacy, you better have a darn good reason, and with the exception of Merfolk (no duals), Goblins (either Taiga or no duals), Belcher (Taiga/Bayou), and BW midrange decks (Scrubland), there are really no contenders that roll with the other duals. So the fact that those are worth less than 50 in some cases is really not important.
-ktkenshinx-
That is the reason why i play mono-colored decks
As an external format gets older card prices obviously rise and this makes reprinting cards harder, at least on the scale that is needed, by scale I mean the number of cards not quantity. Imagine modern takes off and is even bigger than legacy and WoTC decided to reprint the twenty most expensive cards in modern five years in the future at the same time without having a limited print-run, many players would be upset. When cards get expensive WoTC has to be careful how many they reprint per year if they really want to print them in the quantities that will affect the price of cards.
Invasion forward would mean vindicate and pernicious deed would be legal and its prices would skyrocket unless reprinted (that is not a problem if they do). But I see a little problem with the deed because it has the old design of destroying creatures artifacts and enchantments instead of nonlands, destroying manlands for example.
And odyssey would bring standstill, which I don't like. The only reason I don't like mirrodin forward is the original fetches and stifle are out, but they can be reprinted in a core set one of these years.
amazingly epic sig courtesy of DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Planes.
The only card in Masques that absolutely must get banned is Dark Ritual. Other than that, however, the other cards are up in the air. Rishadan Port is a 2 mana Wasteland effectively, which is far from unfair. Misdirection is a free counterspell only against other counterspells. All the other cards in the Masques block are simply not ban worthy even if they are powerful (Unmask, Land Grant, Dust Bowl, Tangle Wire, Daze, etc.).
Then there is the Brainstorm issue. This is really something that comes down to testing and tournament results. If Brainstorm becomes too nutty and goes the route of Vintage, then it can be banned. But if it is just one more tool that blue has, but it does not really put up tournament numbers, then it can stay off the banlist. Worst case scenario sees Masques block with both Brainstorm and Dark Ritual banned, but a whole slew of other cards legal and ready to help the format grow.
As to the price of Deed/Vindicate, this is a silly argument. No matter what set a new eternal format starts at, there are going to be expensive staples. By that logic we should not include Ravnica and Future Sight because Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf are going to be chase rares and shoot up in value. Obviously this is a silly idea, but it is the logical extension of the whole "avoid a block because it could make cards expensive" argument.
There are two points in regards to this. On the subject of cards like Wild Mongrel, Wizards is arguing that the vast majority of people on the competitive scene DO NOT know what cards are legal and what sets came out in what years. By their own logic, the players would not know about Mongrel being part of Odyssey. If we are willing to concede that players are smart enough to know when Mongrel and other promo/duel cards were originally printed, then we also must concede that they are smart enough to build decks without a visual aid period. This is the internet era! The Magic community thrives on forums, online programs, online stores, Gatherer, etc. People are going to know legality and they do not need a silly visual aid to help them.
The Modern ideas, like interblock design, color pie refining, power creep, etc., pale in comparison to Masques' abolition of the Reserve List. The Reserve List is the one thing that holds Legacy back (and Vintage for that matter), and starting an eternal format here would ensure that the format is historically significant and appealing. It will withstand the test of time if it has a timeless starting point. For years to come, players will appreciate what the Masques cutoff means, but a Mirrodin cutoff is an arbitrary and meaningless point without serious justification and rationalization.
How is Masques arbitrary? You admit that it is the "first reprintable set", the set that does away with the Reserve List. This Reserve List is the big issue that holds eternal formats like Legacy and Vintage back. A new eternal format that explicitly addressed that problem and symbolically got rid of it would be highly successful. As to prices, no matter where the cutoff is, prices are going to be high for staples unless Wizards reprints them. This is as true for Vindicate/Rishadan Port as it is for Tarmogoyf/Dark Confidant.
Here is a quote from Tom LaPille's article. He clearly says that: "This represents only a proposal and an experiment." (Source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/144). Modern is just a proposed idea, one particular way that the format can look. The community can rally to change that and direct Wizards' attention towards the real historical cutoff point, the one that will make this new eternal format popular and significant: Masques block. Community support can do this because Wizards has not set the format in stone. They are very clear about this, and I for one am willing to fight for this new format to be the best that it can possibly be.
-ktkenshinx-
Port is a lot like a Wasteland that cost 1 to activate. It isn't broken in the slightest. It allows fast deck to play additional disruption for their mid-game against slower decks.
Dust Bowl is slow as hell.
Gush when you don't have duals/exploration/fastbond is decent, but not good nor broken.
Brainstorm is the only card whose power level is retarded. However, since brainstorm is mostly a card quality engine, it can live in the format until it make blue too dominant, which i don't think would be the case in a post masques format with shocklands. Blue really need duals to properly function as alone just can't cut it in modern formats.
Misdirection is a niche card that isn't that played even in legacy with 24+ FoW each T8. It would be a cute sb cards in case certain strategy becomes too dominant.
Daze, like gush, is so much weaker with shocklands instead of duals.
All those people saying that MM would make for a "legacy lite" don't know what they're talking about. What define the power level of legacy are duals paired with fetches. With shocklands, control and aggro control as in Legacy would be unplayable. If you ban tendril and desire, combining this with the absence of Petal and LED, storm combo would be downright unplayable outside of dragonstorm which has a T4 goldfish and would be legal anyway even with a mirrodin cutoff. Belcher is unplayable without ESG, petal and LED.
Legacy is a format where blue is splashed in 90% of decks due to fetch+brainstorm+FoW+MM and where 60% of the decks are tri-colored due to super-easy manabases (with a good 20% being merfolk to hate blue decks). A MM onward eternal wouldn't be like legacy AT ALL.
Finally, the cards that people say would give an impression of "legacy lite" are all common cards (brainstorm, ritual) that people have, love and will want to play.
I think the only things I'd like to see added to the banned list are: Aether Vial because of the way it enables Merfolk and Zoo, and Hypergenesis for just painfully obvious reasons.
I would also like to see aether vial banned.
Stoneforge might get a ban, but I doubt it. Either way, Jitte should come off.
Also, Dark Depths should come off. It's simply not as good without Thopter/Sword, although wizards is afraid of turn 2 combo wins so maybe they won't unban it (although banning this and not hyper is kind of silly, no?)