It involves a convoluted Shahrazad subgame where having a lower life total in the main game is better.
Main Game: Players have no cards in hand, with empty libraries and graveyards. Each player controls a Psychic Possession, so they won't die to decking. Each player prior to subgame has 2 life.
It gets milled into your graveyard and your opponent Spellweaver Volute it, then plays a sorcery and only controls islands. If it was Coalition Victory, he would not have just won.
Also, I'm renaming this thread because it's strayed quite far from the original post.
Coalition Victory is a sorcery, so he couldn't have Voluted it anyways.
So what if NAME was a sorcery instead?
Then, if you went first, you could ramp up mana and cast Reversal of Fortune and play it, winning the game when something like Coalition Victory would not let you do so.
As for the last situation, yeah, I messed up, forgot Victory was a sorcery. Just use a morphed Mischievous Quanar instead when they try and play it. If it were a Coalition Victory, I would not win the game.
Don't forget that if something's worse than Mana Prism, it's likely worse than Darksteel Ingot. I left out those redundant ones, but they're still there.
Phyrexian Lens and the Ingot is particularly notable, as the first is rare and the second is common. Go figure.
Also, to anyone who supports the hypothesis "absolutely no card can be strictly better than another," you'll need to revise the statement to no real card, that is, no card Wizards would print, because of this:
Other-or-Something 1G
Creature - Oddity
Flash (or just about anything else for that matter, be it haste, trample, regeneration, or you may draw a card)
Substance
2/2
Also, to anyone who supports the hypothesis "absolutely no card can be strictly better than another," you'll need to revise the statement to no real card, that is, no card Wizards would print, because of this:
Other-or-Something 1G
Creature - Oddity
Flash (or just about anything else for that matter, be it haste, trample, regeneration, or you may draw a card)
Substance
2/2
First of all, I very much oppose considering Mindslaver in this game. Yes yes, I get that it's a card that could change things, but it completely ruins the game. If we're considering Mindslaver, than I am very confident in saying that NO card in the game can be considered strictly better then another.
Anyway, w/o Mindslaver, I do think that there are a few (though rare) cards that are strictly better than another:
Also, to anyone who supports the hypothesis "absolutely no card can be strictly better than another," you'll need to revise the statement to no real card, that is, no card Wizards would print, because of this:
Other-or-Something 1G
Creature - Oddity
Flash (or just about anything else for that matter, be it haste, trample, regeneration, or you may draw a card)
Substance
2/2
You're opponent Mindslavers you while he has Pandemonium in play. You're running Teferi and Mystical Teachings and you're at 2 life. He makes you cast Teachings to tutor up an Other-or-Somethin and then makes you play it and kill yourself. If it had been a Somethin-or-Other he couldn't have tutored for it.
The thing is, for nearly every ability or trait WotC makes they make something to hose it. Between that and the Slaver's ability to turn good things into bad ones, it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to create a card that could absolutely never be worse than another variation on it.
EDIT:
Quote from ikkleste »
I think by "substance" he means some identical rules text so that neither would get the bonus from pteroglyphs.
"substance" is an actual keyword ability that was created to errata enchantments that could be played at instant speed but had to be sacrificed at the end of turn if they did.
EDITTED EDIT:
Quote from SSJ_Alakazam »
First of all, I very much oppose considering Mindslaver in this game. Yes yes, I get that it's a card that could change things, but it completely ruins the game. If we're considering Mindslaver, than I am very confident in saying that NO card in the game can be considered strictly better then another.
Anyway, w/o Mindslaver, I do think that there are a few (though rare) cards that are strictly better than another:
A card that is strictly better only if a certain card doesn't exist is not strictly better. Actually, I think using the Slaver to figure out ways to make good cards bad is making things more fun.
Lens vs. Prism fails because of their varying costs making them vulnerable to different effects.
Demonfire < Blaze if your opponent's last card in hand is Twincast and you have CoP: Red on the board. If it had been Blaze, you could have saved yourself.
Fireball vs. Blaze would have to fall under Slaver though.
Don't forget that if something's worse than Mana Prism, it's likely worse than Darksteel Ingot. I left out those redundant ones, but they're still there.
Phyrexian Lens and the Ingot is particularly notable, as the first is rare and the second is common. Go figure.
*cracks knuckles*
Celestial Prism > Mana Prism
It is your main phase. You have no cards in your library, your opponent has 10. You control a full Urzatron, but only Urza's Mine is untapped. You also have a Swamp. You have 1 life left, and Glimpse the Unthinkable is the only card in your hand. Celestial Prism is better because you don't die to mana burn.
Phyrexian Lens, Mana Prism, Sol Grail > Darksteel Ingot
Doing all 3 at once. You have 1 life left, and the artifact is enchanted with Warp Artifact. You have a Shatter in hand. Ingot means you lose the game, any of the 3 other artifacts mean you still have a chance.
Quote from Zith »
Also, to anyone who supports the hypothesis "absolutely no card can be strictly better than another," you'll need to revise the statement to no real card, that is, no card Wizards would print, because of this:
Other-or-Something 1G
Creature - Oddity
Flash (or just about anything else for that matter, be it haste, trample, regeneration, or you may draw a card)
Substance
2/2
Card creation is a completely different can of worms that you don't want to open.
Smack that Thing
BB
Instant
Destroy target creature if it has an ability other than substance.
Telepathy is in play. Your opponent's only card in hand is Quash, and he has 4 untapped Islands. He has 1 life.
You have 2 Izzet Boilerworks in play, and 2 cards in hand. Fireball and Blaze.
If the Blaze were a second Fireball, you wouldn't be able to beat your opponent.
First of all, I very much oppose considering Mindslaver in this game. Yes yes, I get that it's a card that could change things, but it completely ruins the game. If we're considering Mindslaver, than I am very confident in saying that NO card in the game can be considered strictly better then another.
Well that's not the worst of it. Meddling Mage is far less fun to think about, be glad people haven't brought that guy up.
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Well that's not the worst of it. Meddling Mage is far less fun to think about, be glad people haven't brought that guy up.
I thought about it. But in the end, Meddlesome Kid and his buddy Gargle-doo effect all non-land cards equally, whereas Mindslaver alters the value of cards based on the situation. Yes they do have to power to render a given card sub-optimal compared to its counterparts, but they're boring about it. The brain box is just plain fun.
Of course I'm a little biased in favor of Mindslaver, since I busted one at the Mirrodin Pre-release, which was my return to MtG after about an 8 year vacation.
I know they're out there, I just can't find them, so I'll ask it as a general question. Is there a situation where a permanent that comes into play tapped is better than an identical one that doesn't?
Wait... Caldera Lake < Shivan Reef?
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[The Crafters] | [Johnnies United]
My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
I know they're out there, I just can't find them, so I'll ask it as a general question. Is there a situation where a permanent that comes into play tapped is better than an identical one that doesn't?
Wait... Caldera Lake < Shivan Reef?
That works for Caldera Lake and Shivan Reef, but I was hoping for a general situation for identical permanents, save one that comes into play tapped. Or am I going to have to find another one?
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[The Crafters] | [Johnnies United]
My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
That works for Caldera Lake and Shivan Reef, but I was hoping for a general situation for identical permanents, save one that comes into play tapped. Or am I going to have to find another one?
You are Mindslavered. You have no lands in play and a lot of artifact mana with Animate Land in your hand. Your opponent has Scout's Warning and enough mana to play both it and Ana Battlemage with kicker. You are at one life. If you draw the comes into play tapped land, it can't be animated and Ana Battlemaged, where the untapped land can be.
I hate Magic now.
NAME 0
Instant
Split Second
You win the game.
As compared to Coalition Victory:
It gets milled into your graveyard and your opponent Spellweaver Volute it, then plays a sorcery and only controls islands. If it was Coalition Victory, he would not have just won.
Also, I'm renaming this thread because it's strayed quite far from the original post.
So what if NAME was a sorcery instead?
Then, if you went first, you could ramp up mana and cast Reversal of Fortune and play it, winning the game when something like Coalition Victory would not let you do so.
As for the last situation, yeah, I messed up, forgot Victory was a sorcery. Just use a morphed Mischievous Quanar instead when they try and play it. If it were a Coalition Victory, I would not win the game.
Sol Ring > Thran Turbine?
EDIT: no, not that at all...I'm really tried
I really can't find anything here.
Sol Ring taps. It's dead to Statis. Turbine might not be used to pay spells, but it can pay for upkeeps costs.
Past Sigs:1|2|3|4
Pseudo Member of the Titans Test Team
Now Piloting:
Gundam TR-1 [Hazel-Rah] Second Form
There's a long line of three mana artifacts that produce mana. Here's a series of pairs involving them:
Celestial Prism < Mana Prism
and
Standing Stones < Mana Prism
and
Standing Stones < Phyrexian Lens
and
Phyrexian Lens < Darksteel Ingot
and
Mana Prism < Darksteel Ingot
and
Sol Grail < Darksteel Ingot
Don't forget that if something's worse than Mana Prism, it's likely worse than Darksteel Ingot. I left out those redundant ones, but they're still there.
Phyrexian Lens and the Ingot is particularly notable, as the first is rare and the second is common. Go figure.
Here's the real winner, though: Island > Plains!
Also, to anyone who supports the hypothesis "absolutely no card can be strictly better than another," you'll need to revise the statement to no real card, that is, no card Wizards would print, because of this:
Somethin-or-Other 1G
Creature - Oddity
Substance
2/2
is strictly worse than
Other-or-Something 1G
Creature - Oddity
Flash (or just about anything else for that matter, be it haste, trample, regeneration, or you may draw a card)
Substance
2/2
Muraganda Petroglyths
Shadowmoor's Infinite combos
Leyline of the Void wrecks the Star.
ADD: So I think that means it is better if you have no cards in the library but need to color fix a single mana to play the game winning spell.
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Anyway, w/o Mindslaver, I do think that there are a few (though rare) cards that are strictly better than another:
Prismatic Lens > Mana Prism
Fireball / Demonfire , etc >>>> Blaze
You're opponent Mindslavers you while he has Pandemonium in play. You're running Teferi and Mystical Teachings and you're at 2 life. He makes you cast Teachings to tutor up an Other-or-Somethin and then makes you play it and kill yourself. If it had been a Somethin-or-Other he couldn't have tutored for it.
The thing is, for nearly every ability or trait WotC makes they make something to hose it. Between that and the Slaver's ability to turn good things into bad ones, it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to create a card that could absolutely never be worse than another variation on it.
EDIT:
"substance" is an actual keyword ability that was created to errata enchantments that could be played at instant speed but had to be sacrificed at the end of turn if they did.
EDITTED EDIT:
A card that is strictly better only if a certain card doesn't exist is not strictly better. Actually, I think using the Slaver to figure out ways to make good cards bad is making things more fun.
Lens vs. Prism fails because of their varying costs making them vulnerable to different effects.
Demonfire < Blaze if your opponent's last card in hand is Twincast and you have CoP: Red on the board. If it had been Blaze, you could have saved yourself.
Fireball vs. Blaze would have to fall under Slaver though.
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
*cracks knuckles*
Celestial Prism > Mana Prism
It is your main phase. You have no cards in your library, your opponent has 10. You control a full Urzatron, but only Urza's Mine is untapped. You also have a Swamp. You have 1 life left, and Glimpse the Unthinkable is the only card in your hand. Celestial Prism is better because you don't die to mana burn.
Standing Stones > Mana Prism
Reuse the Oath of Mages and Furnace of Rath scenario earlier. You need to lose 1 life. Assume you have a mana sink in play, like Sensei's Divining Top.
Standing Stones > Phyrexian Lens
Helps to use up excess mana, like from a Magus of the Vineyard.
Phyrexian Lens, Mana Prism, Sol Grail > Darksteel Ingot
Doing all 3 at once. You have 1 life left, and the artifact is enchanted with Warp Artifact. You have a Shatter in hand. Ingot means you lose the game, any of the 3 other artifacts mean you still have a chance.
Card creation is a completely different can of worms that you don't want to open.
Smack that Thing
BB
Instant
Destroy target creature if it has an ability other than substance.
See?
Mana Prism > Prismatic Lens
Generates an extra Saproling token with Artifact Mutation.
Blaze > Fireball, for argument's sake
Telepathy is in play. Your opponent's only card in hand is Quash, and he has 4 untapped Islands. He has 1 life.
You have 2 Izzet Boilerworks in play, and 2 cards in hand. Fireball and Blaze.
If the Blaze were a second Fireball, you wouldn't be able to beat your opponent.
Well that's not the worst of it. Meddling Mage is far less fun to think about, be glad people haven't brought that guy up.
I thought about it. But in the end, Meddlesome Kid and his buddy Gargle-doo effect all non-land cards equally, whereas Mindslaver alters the value of cards based on the situation. Yes they do have to power to render a given card sub-optimal compared to its counterparts, but they're boring about it. The brain box is just plain fun.
Of course I'm a little biased in favor of Mindslaver, since I busted one at the Mirrodin Pre-release, which was my return to MtG after about an 8 year vacation.
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
Wait... Caldera Lake < Shivan Reef?
Your opponent Mindslavers you, you're at one.
Cryclasm, Boil
Your opponent Mindslavers you and Mana Barbs is in play. You're at one.
I will reiterate that I am sure that there is no card in Magic that is strictly better or worse in every possible situation.
That works for Caldera Lake and Shivan Reef, but I was hoping for a general situation for identical permanents, save one that comes into play tapped. Or am I going to have to find another one?
You are Mindslavered. You have no lands in play and a lot of artifact mana with Animate Land in your hand. Your opponent has Scout's Warning and enough mana to play both it and Ana Battlemage with kicker. You are at one life. If you draw the comes into play tapped land, it can't be animated and Ana Battlemaged, where the untapped land can be.