I understand that people play magic for different reasons, so you might not think that the things I like are worth preserving and think the changes to Magic are good. Part of the problem with magic is that players want different things, and not everyone can get what they want, which means that some people (in this case, me) are going to lose out. My biggest gripe with magic is that they seem to be making the game easier to play in order to make it "more fun" for casual players. Blue isn't ever going to get a really great new counter spell again because spells because a lot of people are like "herp derp i don't like having my spells countered so i am going to whine to wotc" and land destruction was also nerfed because it is "unfun". I hated playing against LD sometimes, but it added value to the game because it added another viable strategy and made you think about how to use your resources more effectively. Besides nerfing blue and several historically important mechanics, Wizards has also increased the power level of the past few sets to such a degree that games are much more of a luck sack than they used to be. It is true that they are scaling that back now, but I suspect that many of the people who complain about blue getting to counter spells are going to be unhappy and demand the return of overpowered spells like Bloodbraid Elf, as they allow any idiot to win. I wish Wizards didn't have to listen to these idiots, but their business model makes it so that they have to.
Fixed; don't use 'retarded' in an inappropriate context.
-Memnarch
This post was meant to convey an attitude I felt many take towards these two things. It is in no way meant to be taken as my serious account of what I think of these two types of play. Feel free to actually read posts before responding to them - Zephy
Counterspells also allow any idiot to win << No offense to Blue Mages, but... I will win almost 100% of the time with 18x lands, 40x Counterspells of some sort, or other control, and 2x Emrakul. I'll win, almost every time, it will happen, and it will be super easy.
I have a Land Destruction deck, it beats very well-made Vintage decks, Legacy decks, etc. Land Destruction = unfun in too good of amouts, so does countermagic...
Counterspells also allow any idiot to win << No offense to Blue Mages, but... I will win almost 100% of the time with 18x lands, 40x Counterspells of some sort, or other control, and 2x Emrakul. I'll win, almost every time, it will happen, and it will be super easy.
I have a Land Destruction deck, it beats very well-made Vintage decks, Legacy decks, etc. Land Destruction = unfun in too good of amouts, so does countermagic...
Does your match take an hour to play with that blue deck? 18 lands and a 15cc creature, doesn't sound very good. And it sounds like you lose to any amount of 2 for 1 cards.
All these cards are perfectly acceptable for land destruction as a strategy, with roiling terrain being the first actual win condition printed on a land destruction card!
The point is that although they don't really want to make mono blue or land destruction viable in standard, they are making them better 1 or 2 cards at a time. Hope I made you feel a little bit better!
*shrug* still, the idea holds true: With the right spells, a counter deck will win, nearly 100% of the time. There is nothing more powerful than simply being able to say "no"
complaining that you aren't getting enough counters...is just kinda meh, when draw is REALLY heavy right now. I'm sorry you only get ONE really great ability?
Though, I will say, something besides freaking Cancel would be nice =.= You guys don't deserve utter blandness
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*shrug* still, the idea holds true: With the right spells, a counter deck will win, nearly 100% of the time. There is nothing more powerful than simply being able to say "no"
complaining that you aren't getting enough counters...is just kinda meh, when draw is REALLY heavy right now. I'm sorry you only get ONE really great ability?
Though, I will say, something besides freaking Cancel would be nice =.= You guys don't deserve utter blandness
Are you nuts? You clearly have not tested that 18 land, 40 counterspell, 2 emrakul deck against either real decks or competent players. No deck (least of all the deck you describe) has anywhere close to a 100% win percentage. Doesn't turn 1 goblin guide beat you every time?
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Quote from Patrick Chapin »
More games are decided by tight technical play than all other factors combined.
Then you have anywhere between 1-40 control spells. I'm not saying control is the be-all-end-all all the time, but it is most of it. If you want to argue that counterspells and draw/control of other types aren't the most powerful effects in the game, we're not going to have a good conversation, sadly :xd:
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So you don't like that Counterspell costs 3 and LD costs 4? Sorry, but people, not just newer players, like to play spells and have them resolve every once and a while. I personally don't think Stone Rain was overpowered but many did not like playing against it. I personally thought Counterspell was overpowered and many people agree with me. Dumbing down the game to a certain extent makes sense if it attracts new players. I think there are changes that have been for the worse, like ending Mana Burn or combat damage stacking, but if that is what it takes to keep this game viable into the future, then I'm willing to go along with it. Do you have a point to your thread besides just *****ing about things you can't change?
Zephynior, you very clearly have little to no experience playing counter based control against well built decks or powerful opponents. I've played a deck like you described (actually it was 26 lands, 21 counters, 8 draw spells, 4 board sweepers, and 1 Morphling) and even that deck, which actually had a means of answering resolved threats and gaining card advantage, still had a lot of trouble against a well-built aggro deck, piloted by a halfway decent opponent. The problem is, you simply cannot always have a counter, nor can you always have mana open to pay for them. MUC has a very difficult time with permanents. Yes, you can say "no" when your opponent plays things, but if they have an even slightly more aggressive mana curve than you, eventually something will slip through the cracks, and then you won't have a way to deal with it because it's already been played. The other inherant flaw in that style of deck is that counters are 1 for 1 trades, with only a few notable acceptions, most of which cost around 4 mana, which is a lot for a counter. If your opponent has any form of card advantage, a deck like you described will run out of cards first, and then they will play something and you won't have a counter or a way to answer it.
The truth of the matter is, while draw go control can be very powerful when built right and played skillfully, it actuall takes a great deal of thought to play one correctly. you have to prioritize threats and know what to counter when. If you just try to blindly counter every spell, you'll be destroyed by the first zoo player with half a brain that comes along.
Control is actually quite weak to (good) aggro.
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"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
I understand that people play magic for different reasons, so you might not think that the things I like are worth preserving and think the changes to Magic are good. Part of the problem with magic is that players want different things, and not everyone can get what they want, which means that some people (in this case, me) are going to lose out. My biggest gripe with magic is that they seem to be making the game easier to play in order to make it "more fun" for casual players. Blue isn't ever going to get a really great new counter spell again because spells because a lot of people are like "herp derp i don't like having my spells countered so i am going to whine to wotc" and land destruction was also nerfed because it is "unfun". I hated playing against LD sometimes, but it added value to the game because it added another viable strategy and made you think about how to use your resources more effectively. Besides nerfing blue and several historically important mechanics, Wizards has also increased the power level of the past few sets to such a degree that games are much more of a luck sack than they used to be. It is true that they are scaling that back now, but I suspect that many of the people who complain about blue getting to counter spells are going to be unhappy and demand the return of overpowered spells like Bloodbraid Elf, as they allow any idiot to win. I wish Wizards didn't have to listen to these idiots, but their business model makes it so that they have to.
Fixed; don't use 'retarded' in an inappropriate context.
-Memnarch
I just wanted to say you are completely correct and there are thousands like you and me who agree. They cater to the idiots who don't want to play around anything. I mean not a single new counterspell has been spoiled yet because of these idiots. Maybe the new set won't even have any. They don't realize there is a huge segment of their audience (aka the good players) that like counterspells because we like playing skill testing games. But you're posting this stuff in the wrong forum because most of the people on this site are unfortunately bad casual players so you should be tweeting maro and aaron forsythe about this. But they don't care about us anyway. The dumber the game and the weaker blue is, the more bad kitchen table players are happier.
I just wanted to say you are completely correct and there are thousands like you and me who agree. They cater to the idiots who don't want to play around anything. I mean not a single new counterspell has been spoiled yet because of these idiots. Maybe the new set won't even have any. They don't realize there is a huge segment of their audience (aka the good players) that like counterspells because we like playing skill testing games. But you're posting this stuff in the wrong forum because most of the people on this site are unfortunately bad casual players so you should be tweeting maro and aaron forsythe about this. But they don't care about us anyway. The dumber the game and the weaker blue is, the more bad kitchen table players are happier.
With your attitude I don't think many would be unhappy to see you go. You are proving the negative MTG stereotypes to be true at the moment.
bearing in mind you're the same guy who posted a troll-tastic whiny thread about green.. ahem.. "getting too much love"... i'm pretty sure you are just the kind of person that gets a kick out of complaining and being pessimistic.
on the whole, i think it might work in your favour if you started thinking about the positive aspects of the game. i mean it is a game - the whole point is that it's fun. if you're just going to whine about the negatives and every little aspect that isn't to your taste then it's just going to pollute the community with what i would call "bad juju".
lighten up. please.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I think Magic players in general have a hard time when Wotc goes away from their favorite archtype to give some love to other ways to play. Also Wotc and Hasbro are watching sales close. With economic times as they are they have to becareful not to push too large of a group away or they will lose the game all together.
Magic is a cycle based game where what was good yesterday gets hated out and the hive moves on to the next big thing. Those that get stuck in the mind set 'X' archtype is the bees knees and should always be viable are normally the most disheartened when the game moves away form that type archtype.
Blue mages lived on top for so long they have been spoiled. Recent sets that only give them a few resources to build their favorite archtype have them upset.
Sad but true, No one archtype should be on top for too long. The game should always be refreshing itself so it can be enjoyed by more then one mind set.
aside from magic, think about every game in general and us as a species. we hate being told no, whether its from a woman, armor lock in halo, 2nd chance in black ops, blue counter in magic... we complain about anything that provides a buzzkill. my friends all grope about blue being WotC's baby. i told them "take away my cancel and mill, what do i have left..?" they laughed and said "i know right" in almost a chior
Personally, the homoginization of the game is whats killing it for me. Nobody tries new things out anymore, they just wait for the pros to develop new tech and everyone plays the same deck. granted, I understand that if you wanna win you play the best but this mentality is trickling down to even FNM where its supposed to be a more casual atmosphere. This combined with the recent power creep dumbing down the game (Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is most certainly the biggest offender IMO) make for a less engaging game. Games are now decided by bombs instead of tight play and inevitable clocks created by these overpowered cards limit options and playstyles. I hope Innistrad can help with some of these issues.
I think magic is being ruined through power creep in general. I hate how skill seems to be diminishing more and more. The games used to be decided by little nuances and decisive play. Now it's like, "Lol, Grave Titan. Answer immediately? No? GG LMAO I'm so good AMIRIGHT?
<RANT>
Planeswalkers also annoy me to no end. Now planeswalker points oh god... This game doesn't look ANYTHING like it did 4 years ago. I R SMART rule changes, mythic rares, planeswalkers, double sided cards, and now planewalker points that cater to the casual crowd, and people who live in areas where they can play every single day giving Wizards MOAR MONAY!!?!? It's goddamn garbage.
Every change has alienated me from this game more and more. I don't want YU-GI-OH! I want Magic back for what made it great. </RANT>
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Winner of the MTGSalvation Standard Championships III & IV.
I think magic is being ruined through power creep in general. I hate how skill seems to be diminishing more and more. The games used to be decided by little nuances and decisive play. Now it's like, "Lol, Grave Titan. Answer immediately? No? GG LMAO I'm so good AMIRIGHT?
<RANT>
Planeswalkers also annoy me to no end. Now planeswalker points oh god... This game doesn't look ANYTHING like it did 4 years ago. I R SMART rule changes, mythic rares, planeswalkers, double sided cards, and now planewalker points that cater to the casual crowd, and people who live in areas where they can play every single day giving Wizards MOAR MONAY!!?!? It's goddamn garbage.
Every change has alienated me from this game more and more. I don't want YU-GI-OH! I want Magic back for what made it great. </RANT>
All these Yu-Gi-Oh comparisons make me wonder if anyone's ever actually played that game, or if it's just hyperbole, since the two games are currently nothing alike. and complaints about rampant power creep usually aren't that valid, since we're talking about power creep and power seep in fairly equal amounts. Creatures become more powerful, spells become less powerful, we meet somewhere in the middle. Magic takes pretty much the same amount of skill now as it would have way back when, when it comes to higher-level tournaments. However, the internet gives players means to just play the most powerful decks even if they're not skilled enough.
and secondly, you're speaking as if Wizards shouldn't be acting like a company. Many, many people bemoaned the old system of keeping track of points, so now we have the new one, which has received a generally positive reaction from players of different skill types. and since it encourages MORE play rather than less, yes, it will make wizards money. This is what they want, and really, if we want the game to continue to thrive, it's what we want.
magic is (truely) at its best when you play with nothing but commons, where strategy and sometimes downright bluffing and slight errors win games, and you can sit there and say.. that was intense dude good game, draft tournaments are the only thing that are fun cuz of mithic rares and planeswalkers...
no instead it a bunch of "pros" show up with there $400 decks they built off the internet and play cards that fill you with hopelessness and you scoop. leave. play xbox.
I think the bottom line is, if you don't find Magic fun, the proper thing to do is to stop playing. It's not a good idea to play the game if it isn't fun.
What doesn't make any sense is to post your vague complaints on MTGS in hopes of finding other people to validate your feeling.
and secondly, you're speaking as if Wizards shouldn't be acting like a company.
I don't know about anyone else, but personally I think the fact that Magic is made and maintained by a for-profit company is perhaps the single worst thing for the game.
I have something pretty close to a 40-counter deck in Vintage loaded with all the best countermagic the game's entire history has to offer. If I'm against good aggro, it goes something like this: no mulligans, good hand, drew into Library of Alexandria, I have a chance in hell. Otherwise, it's over before it begins.
I also know how to play around it as a result if I'm not using good aggro. You side in enough removal, sit for a while, remove huge fatties if that's their endgame style (or in my case, Scepters), make them play defensively on their own turn and either run them out of counters in-hand or mana to get something on the board. Preferably something with shroud, or your combo. If they're so tied up in stopping things from coming into play they can't do much when you succeed. The maximum hand size of seven is quite handy in that sort of context.
Edit at above: it makes the price suck (mythic rarity, largest complaint about the game I've ever had) but the for-profit thing means the majority gets what they want.
All these Yu-Gi-Oh comparisons make me wonder if anyone's ever actually played that game, or if it's just hyperbole, since the two games are currently nothing alike.
They are becoming more and more alike with simpler rules, over the top strong cards in regards to the specific game, and mythic rares.
Yes, I played yu-gi-oh until I was 13 or 14. It was stupid even then, and the magic of now is starting to remind me of it.
Many, many people bemoaned the old system of keeping track of points, so now we have the new one, which has received a generally positive reaction from players of different skill types. and since it encourages MORE play rather than less, yes, it will make wizards money. This is what they want, and really, if we want the game to continue to thrive, it's what we want.
Sure, they need to make money... Just like they were before. I'm not sure of the numbers, but I know for a fact Magic hasn't been close to failing since it bloomed out of infancy. Magic has been the #1 TCG on the market for a long time. Wizards however, didn't need to make the blatant cash grabs that they have these last few years. There's something to be said about loyalty to a line that's never been anything but successful. Greed is what eventually ruins everything, and Magic is heading there fast.
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My DCI ELO Ratings - May they rest in peace :'(
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Fixed; don't use 'retarded' in an inappropriate context.
-Memnarch
I agree with your premise but not with your reasoning.
Counterspells also allow any idiot to win << No offense to Blue Mages, but... I will win almost 100% of the time with 18x lands, 40x Counterspells of some sort, or other control, and 2x Emrakul. I'll win, almost every time, it will happen, and it will be super easy.
I have a Land Destruction deck, it beats very well-made Vintage decks, Legacy decks, etc. Land Destruction = unfun in too good of amouts, so does countermagic...
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
Does your match take an hour to play with that blue deck? 18 lands and a 15cc creature, doesn't sound very good. And it sounds like you lose to any amount of 2 for 1 cards.
mental misstep
Flusterstorm
spell pierce
mental misstep
muddle the mixture
trickbind
mental misstep
spell snare
mental misstep
these are all pretty great counterspells that have been printed somewhat recently, and I'm anticipating more in the future.
Though admittedly land destruction doesn't have nearly as many contenders, there are still a couple gems that have been printed recently:
crack the earth
sowing salt
molten rain
befoul
mwonvuli acid-moss
roiling terrain
All these cards are perfectly acceptable for land destruction as a strategy, with roiling terrain being the first actual win condition printed on a land destruction card!
The point is that although they don't really want to make mono blue or land destruction viable in standard, they are making them better 1 or 2 cards at a time. Hope I made you feel a little bit better!
complaining that you aren't getting enough counters...is just kinda meh, when draw is REALLY heavy right now. I'm sorry you only get ONE really great ability?
Though, I will say, something besides freaking Cancel would be nice =.= You guys don't deserve utter blandness
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
Are you nuts? You clearly have not tested that 18 land, 40 counterspell, 2 emrakul deck against either real decks or competent players. No deck (least of all the deck you describe) has anywhere close to a 100% win percentage. Doesn't turn 1 goblin guide beat you every time?
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
The truth of the matter is, while draw go control can be very powerful when built right and played skillfully, it actuall takes a great deal of thought to play one correctly. you have to prioritize threats and know what to counter when. If you just try to blindly counter every spell, you'll be destroyed by the first zoo player with half a brain that comes along.
Control is actually quite weak to (good) aggro.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
I just wanted to say you are completely correct and there are thousands like you and me who agree. They cater to the idiots who don't want to play around anything. I mean not a single new counterspell has been spoiled yet because of these idiots. Maybe the new set won't even have any. They don't realize there is a huge segment of their audience (aka the good players) that like counterspells because we like playing skill testing games. But you're posting this stuff in the wrong forum because most of the people on this site are unfortunately bad casual players so you should be tweeting maro and aaron forsythe about this. But they don't care about us anyway. The dumber the game and the weaker blue is, the more bad kitchen table players are happier.
Flame/Troll Infraction.
With your attitude I don't think many would be unhappy to see you go. You are proving the negative MTG stereotypes to be true at the moment.
on the whole, i think it might work in your favour if you started thinking about the positive aspects of the game. i mean it is a game - the whole point is that it's fun. if you're just going to whine about the negatives and every little aspect that isn't to your taste then it's just going to pollute the community with what i would call "bad juju".
lighten up. please.
Magic is a cycle based game where what was good yesterday gets hated out and the hive moves on to the next big thing. Those that get stuck in the mind set 'X' archtype is the bees knees and should always be viable are normally the most disheartened when the game moves away form that type archtype.
Blue mages lived on top for so long they have been spoiled. Recent sets that only give them a few resources to build their favorite archtype have them upset.
Sad but true, No one archtype should be on top for too long. The game should always be refreshing itself so it can be enjoyed by more then one mind set.
Personally, the homoginization of the game is whats killing it for me. Nobody tries new things out anymore, they just wait for the pros to develop new tech and everyone plays the same deck. granted, I understand that if you wanna win you play the best but this mentality is trickling down to even FNM where its supposed to be a more casual atmosphere. This combined with the recent power creep dumbing down the game (Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is most certainly the biggest offender IMO) make for a less engaging game. Games are now decided by bombs instead of tight play and inevitable clocks created by these overpowered cards limit options and playstyles. I hope Innistrad can help with some of these issues.
<RANT>
Planeswalkers also annoy me to no end. Now planeswalker points oh god... This game doesn't look ANYTHING like it did 4 years ago. I R SMART rule changes, mythic rares, planeswalkers, double sided cards, and now planewalker points that cater to the casual crowd, and people who live in areas where they can play every single day giving Wizards MOAR MONAY!!?!? It's goddamn garbage.
Every change has alienated me from this game more and more. I don't want YU-GI-OH! I want Magic back for what made it great. </RANT>
My DCI ELO Ratings - May they rest in peace :'(
All these Yu-Gi-Oh comparisons make me wonder if anyone's ever actually played that game, or if it's just hyperbole, since the two games are currently nothing alike. and complaints about rampant power creep usually aren't that valid, since we're talking about power creep and power seep in fairly equal amounts. Creatures become more powerful, spells become less powerful, we meet somewhere in the middle. Magic takes pretty much the same amount of skill now as it would have way back when, when it comes to higher-level tournaments. However, the internet gives players means to just play the most powerful decks even if they're not skilled enough.
and secondly, you're speaking as if Wizards shouldn't be acting like a company. Many, many people bemoaned the old system of keeping track of points, so now we have the new one, which has received a generally positive reaction from players of different skill types. and since it encourages MORE play rather than less, yes, it will make wizards money. This is what they want, and really, if we want the game to continue to thrive, it's what we want.
no instead it a bunch of "pros" show up with there $400 decks they built off the internet and play cards that fill you with hopelessness and you scoop. leave. play xbox.
What doesn't make any sense is to post your vague complaints on MTGS in hopes of finding other people to validate your feeling.
I don't know about anyone else, but personally I think the fact that Magic is made and maintained by a for-profit company is perhaps the single worst thing for the game.
I also know how to play around it as a result if I'm not using good aggro. You side in enough removal, sit for a while, remove huge fatties if that's their endgame style (or in my case, Scepters), make them play defensively on their own turn and either run them out of counters in-hand or mana to get something on the board. Preferably something with shroud, or your combo. If they're so tied up in stopping things from coming into play they can't do much when you succeed. The maximum hand size of seven is quite handy in that sort of context.
Edit at above: it makes the price suck (mythic rarity, largest complaint about the game I've ever had) but the for-profit thing means the majority gets what they want.
They are becoming more and more alike with simpler rules, over the top strong cards in regards to the specific game, and mythic rares.
Yes, I played yu-gi-oh until I was 13 or 14. It was stupid even then, and the magic of now is starting to remind me of it.
Sure, they need to make money... Just like they were before. I'm not sure of the numbers, but I know for a fact Magic hasn't been close to failing since it bloomed out of infancy. Magic has been the #1 TCG on the market for a long time. Wizards however, didn't need to make the blatant cash grabs that they have these last few years. There's something to be said about loyalty to a line that's never been anything but successful. Greed is what eventually ruins everything, and Magic is heading there fast.
My DCI ELO Ratings - May they rest in peace :'(