I was following them on facebook (forgot to unfollow), and they advertised to get better reviews on yelp after seeing that so many people voted my review "useful." Anyways, the owner--who I will refer to as J--got his employees to leave good reviews for him, but they all got filtered out, I guess because Yelp has some kind of algorithm for determining whether or not a review is fake.
I gave another store, CF's, four stars (up from my previous review of 3) and said I'd give him another try. J must have saw, so he got his employees--the same ones that gave his store 5 stars--to leave the other store long, negative reviews.
I didn't really like CF's because the owner is kind of strict (no backpacks, he has to OK trades within the store, etc.), but I feel bad for him for being a victim in all of this.
Just wanted to give everyone an update, in case you guys were wondering. Thank you all for being so supportive.
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DRAMA UPDATE! Wow. I cannot believe what the owners responded.
From my perspective:If we have lost your patronage, it may be for the best. It's all on camera your transactions throughout the day. We cannot operate a business where predatory trading practices occur. You are welcome to open your own business, and you will see what this means. You will then pay rent for customers who trade with your other customers without your consent, taking away potential income. You will then get bad reviews on Yelp, for protecting your right to do business the way you see as fair.
So, yep, it's as you guys thought. He thinks I'm taking away from his customers by trading with them, therefore he loses potential customers.
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This happened about an hour ago and is still fresh in my mind.
I arrived at my LGS at about 11 and was waiting for people to come in to the store, mostly so I can trade with them. Nobody was there, so I left for lunch and went back about half an hour later. I stayed until 3, making a few good trades. I don't have a deck yet, so I was mostly just trading people and watching games.
One guy I met didn't have anything I needed, so we decided that he would sell some of his cards for store credit and give it to me. He returned with a gift card, and I gave him some cards from my binder. Because I already have a gift card, I went to the owner and asked him if he could combine my two gift cards and he declined. He said that he saw me making trades all day, and that he was "about to have me banned from the store." He told me he pays a lot for rent and that he "knows I'm just making a profit off trades." He said something about going around all the stores and "sucking off the customers," then leaving to do it at another gaming store. I was completely appalled, as I didn't expect any of this. I apologized several times while he lectured me on why he thought it was so insulting, yet he was still very angry. He later came by and said he accepted my apology, but I'm still a little shaken from this incident. He also said he was about to have "my friend banned," who was actually just another random asian guy that I said hi to (I'm asian).
Now, a little about myself.. When I trade, I mostly do it for value. I'm much more of a collector than a player, and I've been assembling a moxen collection (mostly cheaper moxen). I'm trying to get together a rogue legacy deck so I can play, but the cards are very hard to come by, as duals are very expensive. I'm essentially trying to trade my way up to my deck. Even though I trade for value, I never rip people off. I usually tell them the market average, and then tell them what I value it at. Sometimes it's the market average, sometimes it's a little more if the card is difficult to obtain in my area or in very high demand. For example, I'd tell them that the market mid for SOFI is 35, but I value it at 40, give or take, because so many people have been asking for it. Naturally, I'm not going to trade my SOFI for a Sorin, even if Sorin is 60 (and it's not anymore). I give people all the facts, and they make the offer. If the offer is exceptionally low, I will tell them that they're getting ripped off and that they should take some more cards from my collection.
When people offer to buy my cards for cash, I ask them to give it to the store so I can receive that value in credit. I feel like selling for cash is disrespectful to the store. By him selling the cards for credit, I would be getting something I needed (nothing in his collection), and he would getting something he needed. The store would profit because they would be getting a good deal on the cards traded in, so I figured everything was okay. Apparently not.
I'm not asking who was right; there are probably people on both sides. What I'm hoping to acquire in this thread is a little more perspective about the situation. LGS owners, please chip in your two cents. Feel free to ask me any questions.
Sounds like a little more chit chat with your LGS owner would go along way. Developing a rapport with a store is good. You don't want to be that guy that who goes into the store never says hi to the owner and never buys anything.
Sounds like a little more chit chat with your LGS owner would go along way. Developing a rapport with a store is good. You don't want to be that guy that who goes into the store never says hi to the owner and never buys anything.
That's the thing; I do frequent the store and buy things. I participate in drafts (as I can't play FNM), and frequently purchase sleeves. In fact, I'm not socially inept at all. When I walked in, I said hi to the owner and we talked about how he was releasing some new vanguard game. I asked him if I could preorder FTV Realms, and he said he hadn't heard of it yet. It wasn't like I had never talked to him before. A few months ago, I purchased a box of NPH from him. It's just that he's rarely there when I am.
When people offer to buy my cards for cash, I ask them to give it to the store so I can receive that value in credit. I feel like selling for cash is disrespectful to the store. By him selling the cards for credit, I would be getting something I needed (nothing in his collection), and he would getting something he needed. The store would profit because they would be getting a good deal on the cards traded in, so I figured everything was okay. Apparently not.
I have to admit, I'm completely shocked by this whole situation. I would have never imagined a store owner getting upset with you for using his store as a local trading venue. In my mind, that's a part (if not a large part) of what a LGS is all about. Why on earth wouldn't you want your store to be the place that people congregate to do all their Magic-related shenaniganery. Moreover, it's not like you show up there, never say a word to the owner, never purchase anything from the store, and just leave after trading with the store's actual paying customers. It sounds like you do a good bit of business with the store itself, too, unless I'm misunderstanding something. Perhaps I'm just accustomed to a really friendly, relational environment at my LGS, but his reaction to you totally floored me when I first read it. I'm still quite perplexed.
This sounds like there has to be something else here...I mean, that's a pretty heavy reaction for this. I can understand him trying to say he would like to see more cash transactions, but...This really just sounds...intense o.o
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This sounds like there has to be something else here...I mean, that's a pretty heavy reaction for this. I can understand him trying to say he would like to see more cash transactions, but...This really just sounds...intense o.o
I'm just as flabbergasted as you are. I mean, I almost felt like crying while what felt like a verbal assault. I kept apologizing and saying that I didn't know he felt that way, and I even told him that I direct all the people that offer me cash to get store credit, and he said even trading like I do is disrespectful.
I don't want to make it sound like I'm the victim, because I know times are tough for him. He even mentioned that he doesn't pay 5k a month so I can "do business" here. I'm just hoping to get some insight on what the big deal is.
to the OP, I know the feeling. There is a shop within blocks of where I live. I frequented the store every day to play commander, trade, and just in general be around magic. One day I show up and Im "banned" from the store. I ask the owner, who we were pretty close, and his response was that I talked about another store having a wednesday night standard tournament and he doesnt appreciate me "Advertising" for that store.
This all comes from the locals asking where I go when I leave every wednesday at the same exact time. Guess Im banned now because of it and I havent been back in 5-6 months. Its funny, because he soon banned my friends who travel with me because they do the same thing.
To me its not your fault, its his. Its his loss of customers that he is driving away and then when his business goes bankrupt he has no one to blame but himself.
He's probably upset that you were having the other person trade in cards just to get what he wanted from you. He would probably prefer that the player do most of his trading with the store, especially if his money is involved (i.e. the gift card). It's in his power, but it's not a strong business strategy if he wants customer loyalty
The store I go to now has no problems with such deals and often helps us facilitate them. The owner is also always there and often plays in the tournaments if there's not a big turnout and he gets to know pretty much everybody. Very good FNM prizes too. If you have the option I would search around for other places to do your Magic-ing
From your story it is easy to see why the owner thinks you are abusing the good will of him letting you trade in his store. And this is something that many players forget about, trading is stores is not a right, its soley up to the store. You admitted to not playing and just hanging around to trade for a few hours, for profit, so you can basically but a deck together for free, or very little cost.
Think about it from the store owners perspective. This guys pays rent and has to make a living from his store. Every time he looks over and sees you, you are not playing but trading. At some point you cross the line and become more of a professional trader and not so much a casual trader. When you cross that line store owner wont be happy with you because you stop being a customer and become a competitor.
Players dont like to hear it but a lot of guys here so cheap they arent worth having as customers. I have seen some pretty bad posts from other forum members. Like the guy who complained about paying 0.75 for a pop, or the guy who thinks that buying one pack is supporting your store when you play there all day. Players like to complain about stores, but I have seen a lot worse behavior from players than stores owners.
Maybe you should make some cheap crappy STD deck so you can play while your trading. While you might not get as many trades completed it would probably make you look like a customer instead of a competitor.
I mean, I understand full well that running a card store is tough and that if I'm going to play or go to a store I should spend money there to help support the store, but at the same time, I hate LGS's that try to make it a necessity that I spend money there. If you're going to make me spend money like that, don't bother, I'll just go take my money someplace else that's less pushy.
As long as you aren't snobby and you do actually buy stuff from them, there really isn't an issue with what you're doing.
Part of the store is people just go there and trade and hang out and play games and what not.
Having people in his store (even "freeloaders") will cause other people to want to come in and play/trade/etc. which causes even more people to come in and if even 1 in 4 of them buys something, then that's something that wouldn't have otherwise been sold.
Most cardshop owners I've come accross have really bad business sense to be honest. The one I go to now seems to have it pretty well figured out but I'm going to give him some ideas I think could improve things. They run really low cost events and people know not to expect a big prize pool since the buyin is so low but it gets tons of people in the door. We have 30+ every single FNM which I haven't seen anywhere else. This usually draws in 15+ other people on fridays who are trading, playing, or just hanging out and then an additional like 20+ who come in for a bit and then buy some stuff and leave. This is huge traffic and even the candy/soda sales will add up. I have no doubt that they are clearing a substantial amount of money each friday outside of the FNM but which is due to the FNM going on and drawing people in the door.
I'm personal friends with my LGS owner for many years.
Here is the reality.
The LGS owner understands that the people who play there make trades. It's part of the cost of doing business. Make no mistake about it...it's a cost.
John Doe needs a Wurmcoil. The store owner is selling them for $15. But John Smith has one for trade. He trades his Wurmcoil for a Bladehold that the store owner sells for $20. That's $35 in income that the store owner lost.
Now, multiply that by the 30 or so people that play at the LGS and you can see how much money he loses in an evening.
He understands it, but he's not thrilled about it.
What he hopes, and in the case of my LGS owner, is that the players will also buy packs and cards that others don't have. And fortunately, they do. In fact, FNMs at my LGS are a windfall for the store owner. He does very well that evening, sometimes going through boxes of cards.
But what if the LGS owner is not doing well? What if the players only trade among themselves and never buy cards?
Guess what happens?
The LGS owner has no reason to run FNM. He might as well shut the whole thing down. What's in it for him? What keeps him in business?
So you see, it's a two way street. You can't just come to an LGS and trade and undercut him. Now, I'm not saying that this is what the OP did here. In fact, I see nothing wrong with what the OP did. He actually thought about the LGS owners welfare.
But what if the owner just didn't see it that way? What if he'd just had enough of all the trading and lost income that goes on in his store? What if he just had a bad day, couldn't take it anymore and said things he probably didn't really mean?
Please try to look at it from the side of the store owner, something I can now do now that I see what's involved in actually running a store, especially a small store.
Basically in the LGS Owners eyes here it what you did: one guy "bought cards" from you with his gift card. Yes, he sold cards to the store for the gift card, but the gift card represents cash value. The guy then gave you that for cards.
In the end, the gift card is going to get used at the store to purchase something, but by you getting the gift card, the guy who originally got it did not use that credit for what he wanted. If he had done that, you would then not have the credit, and be able to use it, you would have to spend cash or sell cards.
LGS' really dont have issues with trading, but when it comes to cash dealing (or a gift card in this case - essentially cash since you obviously planned to use it at the store), they really do not like that. You may think b/c the guy sold cards for the gift card, that he is going to get the money in the end, that may be true but instead of the Original Guy using the card and you then purchasing singles, the Original guy got his cards from you, and you are going to use the Card.
I think what a lot of people are missing is the degree you do something to. Here is an example.
If we have cards that are exactly the same in every way except price, so no eternal vs std or availablitity issues. Now I do the following trades.
1. I trade a $36 card for a $40 card. Everyone would pretty much be ok with that, pretty much as fair as you can get.
2. I trade a $30 card for a $40 card. In the range where a lot of people will say I am ripping the guy off.
3. I trade a $20 card for a $40 card. Now everyone on the forums call me a d-bag.
So why cant it be the same for a store. Hanging around playing and trading is fine. But setting up shop in the guys store and not playing, just value trading is not ok. Why is it the store owner is the guy in the wrong?
There's a lot of ways you can take the whole "degrees" thing.
Like, it's OK to trade cards for cards, but not cards for money? Or cards for store credit?
Or, you can't trade inside the store, but you can walk outside the store and trade? Or arrange to meet up at a nearby bus/train station (given that whoever you're trading with is probably also headed to the store) to trade?
It's a very slippery slope and in the end, players will just go as far as possible without stepping over the line. If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
doesn't this all depend on what the store owner is paying for for the cards? if he's paying full value he's getting ****ed. if he's doing what most store owners do and buying them at a discount then... really all you have to do is explain that to him without being pretentious. thats the key bit there. too many players get pretentious and forthright when people get offended at their ****.
Unfortunately, situations like this are generally too complex to appreciate fully based on a handful of forum posts, especially when we're only presented with one side of the story. Wizards of the Coast officially has referred to Magic as a "Trading Card Game" rather than a "Collectible Card Game" for many years now. As such, any store that supports Magic should very probably be prepared to support activities that naturally coincide with playing and buying cards, such as trading. However, the amount of trading allowed by any store or venue is certainly an area for debate.
In my mind, it is very unlikely that one set of trading rules would be applicable to or equally effective for every store. There are many factors that may be involved when a store owner decides how much trading to allow on his or her premises. For example, the economic health of an area may help determine whether more or less trading would be most beneficial to the shop.
In a very affluent area, heavier restrictions on trading may lead to more players buying cards from the shop, since money is less of an issue. Areas full of truly competitive players may not need to encourage trading either, as these types of players tend to focus on deck building and playing more than card acquisition. In poorer areas, it may be necessary to allow large amounts of trading simply to get potential customers in the door. If players feel they can't afford cash prices of cards and aren't allowed to obtain cards through trade, they may not show up at all.
Another thing to note is that store owners who see trading only as lost profits are generally missing a key consideration: these store owners are actually only considering some sort of potential profit, which may or may not be very realistic. This is a tremendously important distinction to make. In fact, it is very unlikely that a store could ever hope to realize a profit equal to the value of cards traded in-store by banning those trades. To clarify, a player who exchanges one $20 card for another card of equal value would not necessarily have spent $20 in cash for the same card. Therefore, the store lost no profit when that player traded his card. In many cases, it is actually more financially beneficial for the store to allow trading to proceed than it would be to discourage trading.
Furthermore, it is quite possible the store has already profited from the cards involved in the trade. If the store sold the packs or the cards to the traders in the first place, the store has already made their profit.
In addition, allowing trading can actually add value to a store's product. Part of the reason many players buy sealed packs in the first place is because they feel the contents of those packs may have value. That value can come from directly using the card in a deck. The value can also come indirectly by being able to trade or resell a pack's contents. If trading is prohibited, this may devalue packs for some customers.
It is clear that providing a place to trade cards is a valuable asset for a store. But again, the extent of trading that is most beneficial for both the store and its customers may vary from location to location.
Magic is the only hobby that people allow going into a store and cutting off the store's business. That's really what trading is. Imagine going into a used book store, and grabbing some guy who's about to buy a book, and telling him "Hey man, I've actually got that book. You should trade me for this other book", or worse, selling it too him.
Every other business would at least kick you out of their store for that, if not ban you. I've worked in the hobby industry before. Stores HATE trading. I understand that trading is one of the drawing factor of Magic, and stores probably see it as a necessary evil, but I know if I owned a store that sold Magic cards, I would absolutely draw the line at cash transactions.
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I'll hold myself to this. I'll get fancy dishes and everything.
My personal point of view as someone who owns/runs the magic singles sales for the shop I sell at, is that a shop should always encourage trading, and discourage cash sales within the shop. Trading is a healthy aspect of a good and strong magic community. Not everyone has the cash to be able to buy whichever singles they need, nor may wish to be forced to trade into a shop at whatever the rate the shop will accept trades at (if the shop will even accept what they would have for trade.).
Many shop owners look at things from the perspective that anything that takes away from their business is bad, because they have bills that need to be paid and as someone else mentioned, that trading takes away friom that income.
To me, its more important to build a healthy and strong magic community to encourage as many people as possible to come to your shop so that out of those people you will continue to grow your sales. Not everyone is going to spend money, though most will at least spend some, or help create transactions that will benefit the shop in some way.
I myself always encourage trading among players, and have acted as a go-between in many cases between players to make it easier for them to get what they need. That said, due to the setup I have, I often tend to unintentionally canniballize the trading and sales among our local community by keeping such a large and complete selection and offering the lowest prices I can on the singles I sell. I know that my method wouldnt work for a lot of shops due to how I run things but I think that keeping the magic community as healthy and strong as possible helps to grow sales and every other aspect of a shops magic business in a stable and long-term fashion to keep people coming back.
I wont say what the shop owner did was wrong perse as I dont feel its my place to judge how another runs their shop. I will however say that I would disagree with how the owner handled things, and I personally would want to talk to the owner to find out what their rationale is for feeling the need to do that. Sometimes it can just take someone helping them understand the bigger picture to help them possibly change their mind/policies to be more customer friendly.
My personal point of view as someone who owns/runs the magic singles sales for the shop I sell at, is that a shop should always encourage trading, and discourage cash sales within the shop.
Many shop owners look at things from the perspective that anything that takes away from their business is bad, because they have bills that need to be paid and as someone else mentioned, that trading takes away friom that income.
I wont say what the shop owner did was wrong perse as I dont feel its my place to judge how another runs their shop.
I'll judge him. He's an idiot and his shop is going to fail. There's no question you ban guests from exchanging money for product with each other within your shop, but in this industry you don't get to have a say when it comes to trades. This is because you are selling Trading Card Games. If you deny the customer a use of the product you sell where that use is how the product was DESIGNED TO WORK, and it's right there in the name of the product, you are self-inflicting a business wound. It's like a water park where swimming isn't allowed.
Most game shop owners, unfortunately, are not very business-literate. They think they can just open up some square footage and it will be like extending their living room to the public. They don't understand cash flow, they don't understand categorical monetization, they don't understand taxes at ALL (and this has caused the demise of several LGSes in my area) and worst of all, they think they will get to play games for a living. The awakening on all these counts is rude, ruder, and rudest. A shame that it tends to cost them their nest egg to learn this. As their slide into oblivion begins, they start snipping at what they think is lost revenue when what's really happening is that the customers are behaving normally -- they just failed to set up their business model properly, and thus they're losing out on revenue they don't even know about. And they speed the process along by upsetting customers over marginal things like trading cards in the store or, as mentioned in another thread, being "too competitive."
This is because you are selling Trading Card Games.
You could also call Magic a Collectible Card Game, a CCG, which seems to be the dominant moniker.
More to the point, the trade the OP mentioned was functionally a cash trade. The OP traded his cards for money. While it was a gift certificate with that store alone, it sets a dangerous precedent that trades that are other than card-for-card are being encouraged, which is a line that should not be crossed.
John Doe needs a Wurmcoil. The store owner is selling them for $15. But John Smith has one for trade. He trades his Wurmcoil for a Bladehold that the store owner sells for $20. That's $35 in income that the store owner lost.
Are you serious or what? Because that is definitely not true or logical.
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I was following them on facebook (forgot to unfollow), and they advertised to get better reviews on yelp after seeing that so many people voted my review "useful." Anyways, the owner--who I will refer to as J--got his employees to leave good reviews for him, but they all got filtered out, I guess because Yelp has some kind of algorithm for determining whether or not a review is fake.
I gave another store, CF's, four stars (up from my previous review of 3) and said I'd give him another try. J must have saw, so he got his employees--the same ones that gave his store 5 stars--to leave the other store long, negative reviews.
I didn't really like CF's because the owner is kind of strict (no backpacks, he has to OK trades within the store, etc.), but I feel bad for him for being a victim in all of this.
Just wanted to give everyone an update, in case you guys were wondering. Thank you all for being so supportive.
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DRAMA UPDATE! Wow. I cannot believe what the owners responded.
So, yep, it's as you guys thought. He thinks I'm taking away from his customers by trading with them, therefore he loses potential customers.
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This happened about an hour ago and is still fresh in my mind.
I arrived at my LGS at about 11 and was waiting for people to come in to the store, mostly so I can trade with them. Nobody was there, so I left for lunch and went back about half an hour later. I stayed until 3, making a few good trades. I don't have a deck yet, so I was mostly just trading people and watching games.
One guy I met didn't have anything I needed, so we decided that he would sell some of his cards for store credit and give it to me. He returned with a gift card, and I gave him some cards from my binder. Because I already have a gift card, I went to the owner and asked him if he could combine my two gift cards and he declined. He said that he saw me making trades all day, and that he was "about to have me banned from the store." He told me he pays a lot for rent and that he "knows I'm just making a profit off trades." He said something about going around all the stores and "sucking off the customers," then leaving to do it at another gaming store. I was completely appalled, as I didn't expect any of this. I apologized several times while he lectured me on why he thought it was so insulting, yet he was still very angry. He later came by and said he accepted my apology, but I'm still a little shaken from this incident. He also said he was about to have "my friend banned," who was actually just another random asian guy that I said hi to (I'm asian).
Now, a little about myself.. When I trade, I mostly do it for value. I'm much more of a collector than a player, and I've been assembling a moxen collection (mostly cheaper moxen). I'm trying to get together a rogue legacy deck so I can play, but the cards are very hard to come by, as duals are very expensive. I'm essentially trying to trade my way up to my deck. Even though I trade for value, I never rip people off. I usually tell them the market average, and then tell them what I value it at. Sometimes it's the market average, sometimes it's a little more if the card is difficult to obtain in my area or in very high demand. For example, I'd tell them that the market mid for SOFI is 35, but I value it at 40, give or take, because so many people have been asking for it. Naturally, I'm not going to trade my SOFI for a Sorin, even if Sorin is 60 (and it's not anymore). I give people all the facts, and they make the offer. If the offer is exceptionally low, I will tell them that they're getting ripped off and that they should take some more cards from my collection.
When people offer to buy my cards for cash, I ask them to give it to the store so I can receive that value in credit. I feel like selling for cash is disrespectful to the store. By him selling the cards for credit, I would be getting something I needed (nothing in his collection), and he would getting something he needed. The store would profit because they would be getting a good deal on the cards traded in, so I figured everything was okay. Apparently not.
I'm not asking who was right; there are probably people on both sides. What I'm hoping to acquire in this thread is a little more perspective about the situation. LGS owners, please chip in your two cents. Feel free to ask me any questions.
That's the thing; I do frequent the store and buy things. I participate in drafts (as I can't play FNM), and frequently purchase sleeves. In fact, I'm not socially inept at all. When I walked in, I said hi to the owner and we talked about how he was releasing some new vanguard game. I asked him if I could preorder FTV Realms, and he said he hadn't heard of it yet. It wasn't like I had never talked to him before. A few months ago, I purchased a box of NPH from him. It's just that he's rarely there when I am.
I have to admit, I'm completely shocked by this whole situation. I would have never imagined a store owner getting upset with you for using his store as a local trading venue. In my mind, that's a part (if not a large part) of what a LGS is all about. Why on earth wouldn't you want your store to be the place that people congregate to do all their Magic-related shenaniganery. Moreover, it's not like you show up there, never say a word to the owner, never purchase anything from the store, and just leave after trading with the store's actual paying customers. It sounds like you do a good bit of business with the store itself, too, unless I'm misunderstanding something. Perhaps I'm just accustomed to a really friendly, relational environment at my LGS, but his reaction to you totally floored me when I first read it. I'm still quite perplexed.
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I'm just as flabbergasted as you are. I mean, I almost felt like crying while what felt like a verbal assault. I kept apologizing and saying that I didn't know he felt that way, and I even told him that I direct all the people that offer me cash to get store credit, and he said even trading like I do is disrespectful.
I don't want to make it sound like I'm the victim, because I know times are tough for him. He even mentioned that he doesn't pay 5k a month so I can "do business" here. I'm just hoping to get some insight on what the big deal is.
Why is he now banned ?
This all comes from the locals asking where I go when I leave every wednesday at the same exact time. Guess Im banned now because of it and I havent been back in 5-6 months. Its funny, because he soon banned my friends who travel with me because they do the same thing.
To me its not your fault, its his. Its his loss of customers that he is driving away and then when his business goes bankrupt he has no one to blame but himself.
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The store I go to now has no problems with such deals and often helps us facilitate them. The owner is also always there and often plays in the tournaments if there's not a big turnout and he gets to know pretty much everybody. Very good FNM prizes too. If you have the option I would search around for other places to do your Magic-ing
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Trades
Think about it from the store owners perspective. This guys pays rent and has to make a living from his store. Every time he looks over and sees you, you are not playing but trading. At some point you cross the line and become more of a professional trader and not so much a casual trader. When you cross that line store owner wont be happy with you because you stop being a customer and become a competitor.
Players dont like to hear it but a lot of guys here so cheap they arent worth having as customers. I have seen some pretty bad posts from other forum members. Like the guy who complained about paying 0.75 for a pop, or the guy who thinks that buying one pack is supporting your store when you play there all day. Players like to complain about stores, but I have seen a lot worse behavior from players than stores owners.
Maybe you should make some cheap crappy STD deck so you can play while your trading. While you might not get as many trades completed it would probably make you look like a customer instead of a competitor.
As long as you aren't snobby and you do actually buy stuff from them, there really isn't an issue with what you're doing.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
Having people in his store (even "freeloaders") will cause other people to want to come in and play/trade/etc. which causes even more people to come in and if even 1 in 4 of them buys something, then that's something that wouldn't have otherwise been sold.
Most cardshop owners I've come accross have really bad business sense to be honest. The one I go to now seems to have it pretty well figured out but I'm going to give him some ideas I think could improve things. They run really low cost events and people know not to expect a big prize pool since the buyin is so low but it gets tons of people in the door. We have 30+ every single FNM which I haven't seen anywhere else. This usually draws in 15+ other people on fridays who are trading, playing, or just hanging out and then an additional like 20+ who come in for a bit and then buy some stuff and leave. This is huge traffic and even the candy/soda sales will add up. I have no doubt that they are clearing a substantial amount of money each friday outside of the FNM but which is due to the FNM going on and drawing people in the door.
Here is the reality.
The LGS owner understands that the people who play there make trades. It's part of the cost of doing business. Make no mistake about it...it's a cost.
John Doe needs a Wurmcoil. The store owner is selling them for $15. But John Smith has one for trade. He trades his Wurmcoil for a Bladehold that the store owner sells for $20. That's $35 in income that the store owner lost.
Now, multiply that by the 30 or so people that play at the LGS and you can see how much money he loses in an evening.
He understands it, but he's not thrilled about it.
What he hopes, and in the case of my LGS owner, is that the players will also buy packs and cards that others don't have. And fortunately, they do. In fact, FNMs at my LGS are a windfall for the store owner. He does very well that evening, sometimes going through boxes of cards.
But what if the LGS owner is not doing well? What if the players only trade among themselves and never buy cards?
Guess what happens?
The LGS owner has no reason to run FNM. He might as well shut the whole thing down. What's in it for him? What keeps him in business?
So you see, it's a two way street. You can't just come to an LGS and trade and undercut him. Now, I'm not saying that this is what the OP did here. In fact, I see nothing wrong with what the OP did. He actually thought about the LGS owners welfare.
But what if the owner just didn't see it that way? What if he'd just had enough of all the trading and lost income that goes on in his store? What if he just had a bad day, couldn't take it anymore and said things he probably didn't really mean?
Please try to look at it from the side of the store owner, something I can now do now that I see what's involved in actually running a store, especially a small store.
Put yourself in his shoes before you judge.
In the end, the gift card is going to get used at the store to purchase something, but by you getting the gift card, the guy who originally got it did not use that credit for what he wanted. If he had done that, you would then not have the credit, and be able to use it, you would have to spend cash or sell cards.
LGS' really dont have issues with trading, but when it comes to cash dealing (or a gift card in this case - essentially cash since you obviously planned to use it at the store), they really do not like that. You may think b/c the guy sold cards for the gift card, that he is going to get the money in the end, that may be true but instead of the Original Guy using the card and you then purchasing singles, the Original guy got his cards from you, and you are going to use the Card.
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R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
If we have cards that are exactly the same in every way except price, so no eternal vs std or availablitity issues. Now I do the following trades.
1. I trade a $36 card for a $40 card. Everyone would pretty much be ok with that, pretty much as fair as you can get.
2. I trade a $30 card for a $40 card. In the range where a lot of people will say I am ripping the guy off.
3. I trade a $20 card for a $40 card. Now everyone on the forums call me a d-bag.
So why cant it be the same for a store. Hanging around playing and trading is fine. But setting up shop in the guys store and not playing, just value trading is not ok. Why is it the store owner is the guy in the wrong?
Like, it's OK to trade cards for cards, but not cards for money? Or cards for store credit?
Or, you can't trade inside the store, but you can walk outside the store and trade? Or arrange to meet up at a nearby bus/train station (given that whoever you're trading with is probably also headed to the store) to trade?
It's a very slippery slope and in the end, players will just go as far as possible without stepping over the line. If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
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Big Johnny.
In my mind, it is very unlikely that one set of trading rules would be applicable to or equally effective for every store. There are many factors that may be involved when a store owner decides how much trading to allow on his or her premises. For example, the economic health of an area may help determine whether more or less trading would be most beneficial to the shop.
In a very affluent area, heavier restrictions on trading may lead to more players buying cards from the shop, since money is less of an issue. Areas full of truly competitive players may not need to encourage trading either, as these types of players tend to focus on deck building and playing more than card acquisition. In poorer areas, it may be necessary to allow large amounts of trading simply to get potential customers in the door. If players feel they can't afford cash prices of cards and aren't allowed to obtain cards through trade, they may not show up at all.
Another thing to note is that store owners who see trading only as lost profits are generally missing a key consideration: these store owners are actually only considering some sort of potential profit, which may or may not be very realistic. This is a tremendously important distinction to make. In fact, it is very unlikely that a store could ever hope to realize a profit equal to the value of cards traded in-store by banning those trades. To clarify, a player who exchanges one $20 card for another card of equal value would not necessarily have spent $20 in cash for the same card. Therefore, the store lost no profit when that player traded his card. In many cases, it is actually more financially beneficial for the store to allow trading to proceed than it would be to discourage trading.
Furthermore, it is quite possible the store has already profited from the cards involved in the trade. If the store sold the packs or the cards to the traders in the first place, the store has already made their profit.
In addition, allowing trading can actually add value to a store's product. Part of the reason many players buy sealed packs in the first place is because they feel the contents of those packs may have value. That value can come from directly using the card in a deck. The value can also come indirectly by being able to trade or resell a pack's contents. If trading is prohibited, this may devalue packs for some customers.
It is clear that providing a place to trade cards is a valuable asset for a store. But again, the extent of trading that is most beneficial for both the store and its customers may vary from location to location.
Every other business would at least kick you out of their store for that, if not ban you. I've worked in the hobby industry before. Stores HATE trading. I understand that trading is one of the drawing factor of Magic, and stores probably see it as a necessary evil, but I know if I owned a store that sold Magic cards, I would absolutely draw the line at cash transactions.
Many shop owners look at things from the perspective that anything that takes away from their business is bad, because they have bills that need to be paid and as someone else mentioned, that trading takes away friom that income.
To me, its more important to build a healthy and strong magic community to encourage as many people as possible to come to your shop so that out of those people you will continue to grow your sales. Not everyone is going to spend money, though most will at least spend some, or help create transactions that will benefit the shop in some way.
I myself always encourage trading among players, and have acted as a go-between in many cases between players to make it easier for them to get what they need. That said, due to the setup I have, I often tend to unintentionally canniballize the trading and sales among our local community by keeping such a large and complete selection and offering the lowest prices I can on the singles I sell. I know that my method wouldnt work for a lot of shops due to how I run things but I think that keeping the magic community as healthy and strong as possible helps to grow sales and every other aspect of a shops magic business in a stable and long-term fashion to keep people coming back.
I wont say what the shop owner did was wrong perse as I dont feel its my place to judge how another runs their shop. I will however say that I would disagree with how the owner handled things, and I personally would want to talk to the owner to find out what their rationale is for feeling the need to do that. Sometimes it can just take someone helping them understand the bigger picture to help them possibly change their mind/policies to be more customer friendly.
I'll judge him. He's an idiot and his shop is going to fail. There's no question you ban guests from exchanging money for product with each other within your shop, but in this industry you don't get to have a say when it comes to trades. This is because you are selling Trading Card Games. If you deny the customer a use of the product you sell where that use is how the product was DESIGNED TO WORK, and it's right there in the name of the product, you are self-inflicting a business wound. It's like a water park where swimming isn't allowed.
Most game shop owners, unfortunately, are not very business-literate. They think they can just open up some square footage and it will be like extending their living room to the public. They don't understand cash flow, they don't understand categorical monetization, they don't understand taxes at ALL (and this has caused the demise of several LGSes in my area) and worst of all, they think they will get to play games for a living. The awakening on all these counts is rude, ruder, and rudest. A shame that it tends to cost them their nest egg to learn this. As their slide into oblivion begins, they start snipping at what they think is lost revenue when what's really happening is that the customers are behaving normally -- they just failed to set up their business model properly, and thus they're losing out on revenue they don't even know about. And they speed the process along by upsetting customers over marginal things like trading cards in the store or, as mentioned in another thread, being "too competitive."
You could also call Magic a Collectible Card Game, a CCG, which seems to be the dominant moniker.
More to the point, the trade the OP mentioned was functionally a cash trade. The OP traded his cards for money. While it was a gift certificate with that store alone, it sets a dangerous precedent that trades that are other than card-for-card are being encouraged, which is a line that should not be crossed.
Trades
Pucatrade with me!
(Signature courtesy of Argetlam of Hakai Studios
Are you serious or what? Because that is definitely not true or logical.