Because Magic isn't just about little Timmy getting to drop his big 15/15 and swing for the fences. Other people get to play too and that means having answers for threats and hosers for difficult to overcome strategies.
In my opinion there aren't enough. I didn't play during those days but I wish for cards like boil to come back. Maybe not as powerful but I remember seeing cards that showed color hate of enemy colors. As for counters they need to be a part of the game because you need to be able to learn how to play around them and be a better player.
In my opinion there aren't enough. I didn't play during those days but I wish for cards like boil to come back. Maybe not as powerful but I remember seeing cards that showed color hate of enemy colors. As for counters they need to be a part of the game because you need to be able to learn how to play around them and be a better player.
The problem is that those cards basically invalidate archtypes. More recently, kor firewalker was enough to relegate RDW to 2nd tier in zendikar block when goblins/RDW was strong enough to (slightly) impact the legacy version of the deck.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Think of it this way: How fun would this game be if there was a completely unstoppable strategy, where if you played it there were no answers and you just won.
That would be a terrible game, and nobody except the most hardcore Spikes would play it, as it no longer becomes fun.
(also: inb4 people complaining about Aggro/control/combo as being unstoppable already)
Think of it this way: How fun would this game be if there was a completely unstoppable strategy, where if you played it there were no answers and you just won.
That would be a terrible game, and nobody except the most hardcore Spikes would play it, as it no longer becomes fun.
(also: inb4 people complaining about Aggro/control/combo as being unstoppable already)
Without counters, combo wins every time. There's a reason they call Force of Will the glue that holds Legacy together.
To the OP, you will understand why these cards exist the day you run up against a strategy that completely foils something you're playing and there's nothing at all you can do about it. You will understand why cards like Grafdigger's Cage and Leyline of the Void exist if you ever venture into legacy and play vs dredge, a deck that doesn't interact with you and practically doesn't use any mana at all.
Back in the day Enemy Color hate was a lot more relevant too. See cards like Tsunami and Flashfires.And people say hand control and counters are unfun. Imagine if this **** existed in standard anytime in the recent past.
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
I think it is valid to question why cards are printed whose existence has no other purpose other then to specifically invalidate certain lines of play, rather then have cards in general naturally create intersecting lines of play.
We can't retroactively remake the entire card pool to accommodate true interactivity between disparate lines of play, so including cards that forcefully create interactivity is the pragmatic option. If such design sensibility feels inelegant or distasteful to you, you probably will prefer Limited to Constructed.
I wish Acid Rain was in standard right now, would solve a LOT of problems for me, :D.
I miss hate/hoser cards... If Kor Firewalker was in standard right now, Jund/Red Wouldn't be the top deck... Which is kinda why I'm hoping it comes back in M14. Finger's crossed!
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Have you played Standard? In Standard, there will probably never be a Hate card printed as bad as Flashfires or Karma. The closest we get is a few Hate red cards, which I feel are necessary.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I think it is valid to question why cards are printed whose existence has no other purpose other then to specifically invalidate certain lines of play, rather then have cards in general naturally create intersecting lines of play.
Because that's the line down power creep goes.
Take a look at legacy. Once upon a time, goblins and painter's servant were dominant. There aren't any new _specific_ hosers to goblins and servant, but certainly they have waned in power and importance. Now we have more powerful strategies that make goblins look bad.
Now imagine applying that on every level, for eternity. Something so good makes show and tell look like crap. Just how many people will complain about that? Then, later on, something else makes _that_ look like crap.
Its a never-ending cycle of one-up-manship that spirals out of control.
I'd rather have hosers. I'd rather see a graveyard hoser, than a strategy that can beat dredge and animator without having to interact with it. Hosers makes more decks viable by providing an otherwise unplayable deck an out, no matter how small. This is especially significant in the older formats where simply switching decks isn't economically viable.
I wish Acid Rain was in standard right now, would solve a LOT of problems for me, :D.
I miss hate/hoser cards... If Kor Firewalker was in standard right now, Jund/Red Wouldn't be the top deck... Which is kinda why I'm hoping it comes back in M14. Finger's crossed!
I would laugh so hard a vessel in my ballsack would burst if WotC reprints something like Price of Progress in DM.
In all seriousness, I think hosers way back in the day were better, but also somewhat more creative (i.e. Compost.)
I would laugh so hard a vessel in my ballsack would burst if WotC reprints something like Price of Progress in DM.
In all seriousness, I think hosers way back in the day were better, but also somewhat more creative (i.e. Compost.)
I would be very happy if in the near future Price of Progress gets reprinted. I like multicolor as much as everyone else, but I'd enjoy seeing greedy manabases get punished a little bit soon. If we can't punish greedy manabases with land destruction, some extra non-basic hate would be lovely.
I'd rather have hosers. I'd rather see a graveyard hoser, than a strategy that can beat dredge and animator without having to interact with it. Hosers makes more decks viable by providing an otherwise unplayable deck an out, no matter how small. This is especially significant in the older formats where simply switching decks isn't economically viable.
As I said, hosers are the pragmatic option. I'd rather change the entire history of the card pool so that decks that can completely avoid natural interaction can't exist, but that simply isn't going to happen. Hosers serve of purpose in constructed magic, particularly older formats with large and disparate card pools of providing forcible interaction. That's why I don't play constructed: the gameplay created isn't to my tastes. Limited Magic uses specific cardpools and deck creation methods that circumvent these issues, which is why I find it more enjoyable.
Obviously other people enjoy it and should play it. I am merely exploring the reasoning as to why hosers exist, why some people might find them distasteful and how one might address this issue if they otherwise enjoy the game.
Counters and removal are what keeps the game from being a glorified version of war. Removal is actually better than counters, but counters are more universal. (It's blue's tradeoff: Counters are time-critical, but a counter can answer anything that isn't a land and doesn't have "CARDNAME can't be countered.")
Just remember, play around them. Bait occasionally.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Stagnation is and will always be a major threat to the game. Having good hosers around makes sure that there can never really be one dominant strategy. If there ever is, then these sort of cards will help rein them in.
Richard Garfield addressed this in an article back in 1994:
Quote from "Richard Garfield" »
The original plan was to include cards that thwarted every obvious simple strategy, and, in time, to add new cards which would defeat the most current ploys and keep the strategic environment dynamic.
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Level 2 Judge GUB: All Clones, All the Time EDH GU: Amulet Combo MODERN
It is because sometimes a card or a color (like say blue) gets to be too powerful and all the other decks need an answer in order for the game to be fun and fair for everyone.
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Nicol Bolas is so awesome! And so is Kokusho! Bolas x Kokusho 4eva!!! <3
Read their story here!
The problem is that those cards basically invalidate archtypes. More recently, kor firewalker was enough to relegate RDW to 2nd tier in zendikar block when goblins/RDW was strong enough to (slightly) impact the legacy version of the deck.
kor firewalker was agruably the *least* of aggros worries in that meta...
you had path to exile, day of judgement, wall of omens, gideon jura, elspeth, knight errant,baneslayer angel even oblivion ring all in the format at once.
I think the OP's point is "why so much rest in peace, and not more deathrite shaman?" And you know what, that is a very valid point, worth much discussion. Rest in peace isn't about strategy, it's about making the game into simple question of whether or not a player can Milligan into hate successfully. Instead they should weave hate into otherwise good cards, so that players are already running cards capable of interaction.
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The problem is that those cards basically invalidate archtypes. More recently, kor firewalker was enough to relegate RDW to 2nd tier in zendikar block when goblins/RDW was strong enough to (slightly) impact the legacy version of the deck.
That would be a terrible game, and nobody except the most hardcore Spikes would play it, as it no longer becomes fun.
(also: inb4 people complaining about Aggro/control/combo as being unstoppable already)
Without counters, combo wins every time. There's a reason they call Force of Will the glue that holds Legacy together.
Back in the day Enemy Color hate was a lot more relevant too. See cards like Tsunami and Flashfires.And people say hand control and counters are unfun. Imagine if this **** existed in standard anytime in the recent past.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
We can't retroactively remake the entire card pool to accommodate true interactivity between disparate lines of play, so including cards that forcefully create interactivity is the pragmatic option. If such design sensibility feels inelegant or distasteful to you, you probably will prefer Limited to Constructed.
I miss hate/hoser cards... If Kor Firewalker was in standard right now, Jund/Red Wouldn't be the top deck... Which is kinda why I'm hoping it comes back in M14. Finger's crossed!
[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
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Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Because that's the line down power creep goes.
Take a look at legacy. Once upon a time, goblins and painter's servant were dominant. There aren't any new _specific_ hosers to goblins and servant, but certainly they have waned in power and importance. Now we have more powerful strategies that make goblins look bad.
Now imagine applying that on every level, for eternity. Something so good makes show and tell look like crap. Just how many people will complain about that? Then, later on, something else makes _that_ look like crap.
Its a never-ending cycle of one-up-manship that spirals out of control.
I'd rather have hosers. I'd rather see a graveyard hoser, than a strategy that can beat dredge and animator without having to interact with it. Hosers makes more decks viable by providing an otherwise unplayable deck an out, no matter how small. This is especially significant in the older formats where simply switching decks isn't economically viable.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I would laugh so hard a vessel in my ballsack would burst if WotC reprints something like Price of Progress in DM.
In all seriousness, I think hosers way back in the day were better, but also somewhat more creative (i.e. Compost.)
I would be very happy if in the near future Price of Progress gets reprinted. I like multicolor as much as everyone else, but I'd enjoy seeing greedy manabases get punished a little bit soon. If we can't punish greedy manabases with land destruction, some extra non-basic hate would be lovely.
Obviously other people enjoy it and should play it. I am merely exploring the reasoning as to why hosers exist, why some people might find them distasteful and how one might address this issue if they otherwise enjoy the game.
Y'know, a lot of control decks really are unstoppable by certain opponents. And I'm not just talking about Psychatog.
Just remember, play around them. Bait occasionally.
On phasing:
Richard Garfield addressed this in an article back in 1994:
GUB: All Clones, All the Time EDH
GU: Amulet Combo MODERN
Nicol Bolas is so awesome! And so is Kokusho!
Bolas x Kokusho 4eva!!! <3
Read their story here!
BMy Little KokushoB
RBRakdos UNLEASHED!!!RB
My Standard Decks:
UGRakdos, Bolas, and Ludevic Go To A PartyUG
kor firewalker was agruably the *least* of aggros worries in that meta...
you had path to exile, day of judgement, wall of omens, gideon jura, elspeth, knight errant,baneslayer angel even oblivion ring all in the format at once.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)