Ever since Jace, Planeswalker cards have visibly been powered down* (sans Liliana). See: Gideon, Champion of Justice, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, or just about any other Planeswalker printed since Scars of Mirrodin.
Many people, including players and WotC staff have cited examples as to why Jace was broken: the +2, the 0, the -1, the ultimate, the obvious push for blue... I myself believe it was the combination of his abilities, and I have heard other people say this as well, "It was the fact he had 4 abilities!"
However, I do no think it was because he had four abilities he was overpowered. I believe it was what the abilities did that made him overpowered. Imagine if one of Jace's abilites had been replaced with +2: target player mills 2, 0: draw 3 then discard 2, or -1: draw a card.
Suddenly, the power level of each ability is brought down which brings down the overall power level of the card.
Wizards has not printed a Planeswalker with four abilities since Jace, they have printed a 'walker with five loyalty abilities and one static ability, but they have not printed a 'walker with more than three loyalty abilities since Jace barring one exception that is in its own category.
I feel R&D may be scared of printing another Planeswalker with four abilities in fear of another Jace, but I also feel that they need to print another 'walker with four abilities. Jace was a mistake, but it should not scare them from taking risks still. They need to rectify their mistake and open the design space one again for four ability 'walkers.
Wizards of the Coast needs to print another Planeswalker with four loyalty abilities, to show that the existence of Jace does not mean that all four ability Planeswalkers are broken, but that cards can slip through the cracks of the FFL and that there is a need for extensive testing of all cards, especially the ones that are changed at the last minute.
(Thread inspired by this thread and articles about Jace, the Mind Sculptor's banning.)
*By this I do not mean Planeswalkers have all been nerfed since Jace, but they are much less powerful than him.
I use the Duels Of The Planeswalkers layout, though I'm right-handed and keep my deck and GY to the left. I dare you to ask me how tempting it is to hold flying creatures in a floating pattern over the table.
I have enough faith in Wizard's development team that they understand why Jace was so broken.
My suspicion is that the reason we don't see 4 ability planeswalkers is that the design space for planeswalkers is rather small (something Mark Rosewater has said on a number of occasions) and having more abilities on one planeswalkers limits their options for other planeswalkers in the future.
While I do want to see another planeswalker with 4 abilities, I don't want them to do it just because they can or just because they haven't since Jace. If they're going to do a 4 ability walker then I want it to make sense from a story perspective as well.
Since most walkers have 3 abilities I see a walker with 4 as being at the height of their power, be it under the influence of some magic that has brought out their true potential to just having finally achieved a new level of power, I want it to be flavorful.
Jace, The Mind Sculptor: needs no explanation Elspeth, Knight-Errant: two + abilities that are both very good Gideon Jura: is there anything he can't do? There are other better non-broken Planeswalker but he is still insane.
I think we've reached a point where they've figured out what the appropriate power level is for Planeswalkers: every planeswalker from Innistrad to now is fair. Liliana of the Veil is bananas but for all the right reasons and Tibalt was an experiment that failed; all the other ones are decent/good which is how it should be.
I'm not sure I care about having a Planeswalker with four abilities: as long as we don't get ridiculous ones I'm happy, even if they were to have only two abilities or maybe five; quality over quantity really.
I'm with Bacl on this one, and I'm actually happy that they have been making PW's weaker and weaker and less playable. I hate the card type, so if they won't stop printing them, the next best thing they can do is make them so bad they don't see play. I cheered when I saw Tibalt.
I disagree. What we don't need is another over powerful planeswalker. What we need is for planeswalkers to not be too powerful and change the game... Or we could just stop printing them. Either way works for me.
I'm with Bacl on this one, and I'm actually happy that they have been making PW's weaker and weaker and less playable. I hate the card type, so if they won't stop printing them, the next best thing they can do is make them so bad they don't see play. I cheered when I saw Tibalt.
Sure, she has three abilities, but her -3 can kinda be split into two abilities:
+1: Search your library for a Swamp card, reveal it, and put it into your hoof. Then shuffle your library.
-3: Target creature gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of Swamps you control.
-3: Target creature gets -X/-X until end of turn, where X is the number of Swamps you control.
-6: You get an emblem with "Swamps you control have ‘{T}: Add {B}{B}{B}{B} to your mana pool.'"
I'm with Bacl on this one, and I'm actually happy that they have been making PW's weaker and weaker and less playable. I hate the card type, so if they won't stop printing them, the next best thing they can do is make them so bad they don't see play. I cheered when I saw Tibalt.
Her minus ability can either give +X/+X or -X/-X it can be either pump or removal
Want to see other duel decks I made ? Check out my Blog ! Feel free to post advice or give topics for me to make duel decks out of. Check out the Theros Block Planeswalker Theme Duel Decks Elspeth, Xenagos, Ashok, Kiora, Ajani
I have enough faith in Wizard's development team that they understand why Jace was so broken.
I don't. I don't even understand why Jace was printed in the first place.
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
I didn't like Jace having 4 abilities because they had to enlarge the text box in order to fit all the abilities in. The aesthetic of that choice frustrates me. I wish they'd keep stuff like that in Un-sets.
Plansewalkers are bad for the game overall I think. I like them as a 'face' for the game, but honestly they are just too good. they are getting better and better at making them the proper power level for the game. my probelm with them is that there are already so many. arent these supposed to be super rare beings yet we get an average of one a set now. to many in my opinion.
I loved Jace (play him in Legacy) but we don't need another $100 nightmare on our hands. I don't trust WotC to design a 4 ability planeswalker that isn't going to require a home mortgage to afford.
I just read the title and felt like I needed to comment. They don't NEED to do it. The company won't go bankrupt if they don't, therefore, they don't NEED to do it. It's a very heavy term you used and without necessity. inb4, we still have in Standard a 5-ability walker (yep, dat Garruk got 5 activated abilities if you didn't notice the last time it killed your 2/x creature), and, since this argument has no reasoning, I'd approve if they made something with four unplayable or not-impacting abilities to prove further my point.
This goes along with the "a complete set with [insert card attributes here] only would be broken" and things like it that are taken as absolute truth by a certain part of community because they are biased from early experiences.
I disagree. Wizards needs to stop printing Planeswalkers, or seriously nerf them.
They've nerfed them (Take Liliana out of question), and compare what we have with previous things like Gideon or Elspeth - then look how far they have made them less impacting. It's quite on the right way, if you asked for my opinion, except that I find our current Vraska and Gideon quite weak for what we could have.
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(Give your LGS judge a hug. He deserves it.)
Nothing. All I want is Heroes vs. Monsters spoilers.
Planeswalkers really don't need 4 abilities. You already receive insane card advantage, having 2-3 activated abilities with haste which cost no mana. That's why a mythic brand gets slapped on them and they get dumb price tags even when they're not that amazing, like Ral Zarek being $35. Only if they're horribly designed mechanically (tibalt) are they cheap.
On another note, I don't like Planeswalkers for flavor reasons alone. I want to fight using creatures and spells. Calling another person/planeswalker to help me fight is dumb, especially when they've become of fanfiction-like quality (Jace)
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
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Ever since Jace, Planeswalker cards have visibly been powered down* (sans Liliana). See: Gideon, Champion of Justice, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, or just about any other Planeswalker printed since Scars of Mirrodin.
Many people, including players and WotC staff have cited examples as to why Jace was broken: the +2, the 0, the -1, the ultimate, the obvious push for blue... I myself believe it was the combination of his abilities, and I have heard other people say this as well, "It was the fact he had 4 abilities!"
However, I do no think it was because he had four abilities he was overpowered. I believe it was what the abilities did that made him overpowered. Imagine if one of Jace's abilites had been replaced with +2: target player mills 2, 0: draw 3 then discard 2, or -1: draw a card.
Suddenly, the power level of each ability is brought down which brings down the overall power level of the card.
Wizards has not printed a Planeswalker with four abilities since Jace, they have printed a 'walker with five loyalty abilities and one static ability, but they have not printed a 'walker with more than three loyalty abilities since Jace barring one exception that is in its own category.
I feel R&D may be scared of printing another Planeswalker with four abilities in fear of another Jace, but I also feel that they need to print another 'walker with four abilities. Jace was a mistake, but it should not scare them from taking risks still. They need to rectify their mistake and open the design space one again for four ability 'walkers.
Wizards of the Coast needs to print another Planeswalker with four loyalty abilities, to show that the existence of Jace does not mean that all four ability Planeswalkers are broken, but that cards can slip through the cracks of the FFL and that there is a need for extensive testing of all cards, especially the ones that are changed at the last minute.
(Thread inspired by this thread and articles about Jace, the Mind Sculptor's banning.)
*By this I do not mean Planeswalkers have all been nerfed since Jace, but they are much less powerful than him.
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My suspicion is that the reason we don't see 4 ability planeswalkers is that the design space for planeswalkers is rather small (something Mark Rosewater has said on a number of occasions) and having more abilities on one planeswalkers limits their options for other planeswalkers in the future.
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Since most walkers have 3 abilities I see a walker with 4 as being at the height of their power, be it under the influence of some magic that has brought out their true potential to just having finally achieved a new level of power, I want it to be flavorful.
If they were to print another 4 ability walker they would have to make all the abilities very bad to compensate for how many roles they fill.
And if they do that then what is the point of playing that "bad" walker?
Jace, The Mind Sculptor: needs no explanation
Elspeth, Knight-Errant: two + abilities that are both very good
Gideon Jura: is there anything he can't do? There are other better non-broken Planeswalker but he is still insane.
I think we've reached a point where they've figured out what the appropriate power level is for Planeswalkers: every planeswalker from Innistrad to now is fair. Liliana of the Veil is bananas but for all the right reasons and Tibalt was an experiment that failed; all the other ones are decent/good which is how it should be.
I'm not sure I care about having a Planeswalker with four abilities: as long as we don't get ridiculous ones I'm happy, even if they were to have only two abilities or maybe five; quality over quantity really.
No she doesn't
I'm with Bacl on this one, and I'm actually happy that they have been making PW's weaker and weaker and less playable. I hate the card type, so if they won't stop printing them, the next best thing they can do is make them so bad they don't see play. I cheered when I saw Tibalt.
Sure, she has three abilities, but her -3 can kinda be split into two abilities:
+1: Search your library for a Swamp card, reveal it, and put it into your hoof. Then shuffle your library.
-3: Target creature gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of Swamps you control.
-3: Target creature gets -X/-X until end of turn, where X is the number of Swamps you control.
-6: You get an emblem with "Swamps you control have ‘{T}: Add {B}{B}{B}{B} to your mana pool.'"
Her minus ability can either give +X/+X or -X/-X it can be either pump or removal
Decks used- GGarruk vs LilianaB, WElsepth vs TezzeretU, WGKnights vs DragonsR
WGRAjani vs BolasRUB, WUVenser vs KothR, RUIzzet vs GolgariGB.
WBSorin vs TibaltBR, WRHeros vs Monsters RG
Want to see other duel decks I made ? Check out my Blog ! Feel free to post advice or give topics for me to make duel decks out of. Check out the Theros Block Planeswalker Theme Duel Decks Elspeth, Xenagos, Ashok, Kiora, Ajani
I don't. I don't even understand why Jace was printed in the first place.
That's not 4 abilities. You would only need 1 Stifle to counter her -3
This goes along with the "a complete set with [insert card attributes here] only would be broken" and things like it that are taken as absolute truth by a certain part of community because they are biased from early experiences.
They've nerfed them (Take Liliana out of question), and compare what we have with previous things like Gideon or Elspeth - then look how far they have made them less impacting. It's quite on the right way, if you asked for my opinion, except that I find our current Vraska and Gideon quite weak for what we could have.
(Give your LGS judge a hug. He deserves it.)
On another note, I don't like Planeswalkers for flavor reasons alone. I want to fight using creatures and spells. Calling another person/planeswalker to help me fight is dumb, especially when they've become of fanfiction-like quality (Jace)
No, she doesn't. Garruk Relentless has 5 abilities, though.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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+2: Scry 1
+2: Fateseal 1
0: Brainstorm
-1: Unsummon
-12: Ultimate
no, garruk relentless has 2 and garruk the veil cursed has 3:)
URWTwin
XAffinity
But didn't they already with dreadbore, magmaquake, and merciless eviction?