I've seen hundred 1 month ago, 6 months ago, 1 year ago and I assume now that I will see hundreds in 1 month, 6 months and 1 year from now...
I'm not sure if you understand the concept of supply and demand. If prices are rising to prohibitively high levels, it means that there aren't enough of those cards, and they should be reprinted.
I'm not sure if you understand the concept of supply and demand. If prices are rising to prohibitively high levels, it means that there aren't enough of those cards, and they should be reprinted.
I'm not sure if you understand that WOTC will NOT reprint those cards. EVER...
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I'm not sure if you understand that WOTC will NOT reprint those cards. EVER...
What does that have to do with anything I said?
Also, apparently the upper management made the decision to strenghten the list, eventually the bosses will retire or move to other jobs, and WOTC might reverse their decision. Or some counterfeiters realize that it's easier to make fake magic cards than fake money and flood the market with fakes, I'm surprised that it hasn't happened yet as some Asian sellers sell even counterfeit transistors and ICs on eBay..
Also, apparently the upper management made the decision to strenghten the list, eventually the bosses will retire or move to other jobs, and WOTC might reverse their decision. Or some counterfeiters realize that it's easier to make fake magic cards than fake money and flood the market with fakes, I'm surprised that it hasn't happened yet as some Asian sellers sell even counterfeit transistors and ICs on eBay..
All I say is that you can complain all you want it's not going to change anything. And if you think the Management of Hasbro/WOTC are the only ones that want to stick to the Reserved List and that if those guys retire everything will change...sure go ahead. It's a free country.
I on the other hand would start to question myself if I REALLY wanted to those cards to play Legacy or not. And if the answer is Yes...go the way EVERYBODY does it. One step at a time. But that's me...
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All I say is that you can complain all you want it's not going to change anything. And if you think the Management of Hasbro/WOTC are the only ones that want to stick to the Reserved List and that if those guys retire everything will change...sure go ahead. It's a free country.
I on the other hand would start to question myself if I REALLY wanted to those cards to play Legacy or not. And if the answer is Yes...go the way EVERYBODY does it. One step at a time. But that's me...
I didn't mean that it would happen necessarily if the bosses would change, or that it would even be likely, I just meant that you shouldn't count too much on the reserved list, as it's not a legally binding contract.
Actually I have recently bought some duals as it's unlikely that they will be reprinted anytime soon, so abolishing the list would hurt me too. Sure, it would suck to lose money if they did that, but I'd still admit that it would be the right choice. The reason I'm complaining is because if things continue the way they are going, eventually something will implode one way or other. Either Legacy will suffer the fate of Vintage or secondary market gets flooded with fakes.
EDIT: Also, existence of the reserved list itself is a proof that you can make something happen (at least sometimes) if you complain hard enough.
Here is my problem with any proposed "new fixed dual land". Even if they do print a "circumvented" reserve list old style dual you still have the old dual lands. Wouldn't that make any top tier deck want to use both? How does that solve the monetary issue? So you can get some new dual lands that are usable in the format but now the format has shifted that you need both the new dual lands and the old dual lands to compete.
The reserved list is only relevant for cards that are overpowered. Otherwise, they could just make a really similar card and shove it into the next set. We've actually had quite a few cards that are really close to something on the list that people didn't even notice because they're limited/casual fodder anyway. Of course, they probably could make new cards like Candelabra or LED. They're disgustingly powerful, but useless in 99.9% of decks. They could also potentially do dual lands that are realistically the same as the originals in nearly all cases, as well. It's not like people play the full 4 most of the time, so they certainly wouldn't play 8. The question there is where to print them since if they're standard legal, they'd make the other 2+ sets we're bound to have legal at the same time look bad. The cards you can't really fix that well are the ones like power.
I still think they could print lands with a drawback that keeps them balanced for Standard but a benefit that makes them good in Legacy, despite the drawback. It also wouldn't look like a complete end-run around the reserved list, even though it is.
Sure, you could play them alongside the old duals, but most Legacy decks that currently play duals don't want eight of each of them. Legacy decks are very land-light and have fetchland bases. Anything that makes the "optimal" version of a deck move away from 4x old dual land would make the format more accessible.
Something like:
Land - Swamp Island
When ~ enters the battlefield, it deals 2 damage to you.
Protection from lands
I want paper cards. Playing on MTGO just isn't the same. Btw, I already have an account. I wouldn't have mentioned the reserve list if it wasn't for paper, because it only affects paper Magic.
I want paper cards. Playing on MTGO just isn't the same. Btw, I already have an account. I wouldn't have mentioned the reserve list if it wasn't for paper, because it only affects paper Magic.
And I want $1'000'000'000 from Bill Gates. It's not going to happen and complaining about it is useless. So I have have to move on. I suggest you do the same.
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That would be horrible as then it wouldn't just be about their value falling like a brick, but people who have them couldn't even play with them. I don't think any deck wants 8 duals, so just printing snow duals would be fine. Or if they are worried, they could do something like this:
Snow-Covered Tundra
Snow Land - Island Plains
If you own and control non-snow Island or Plains, sacrifice Snow-Covered Tundra.
Sure, then you couldn't play cards like Dryad Arbor with them, but most decks probably don't care.
Because making such a decision does not mean we have to automatically agree with it in whole or in part, nor does it prohibit our ability to voice an opinion about it.
I have friends who play with original ABUR staples, including duals [from BETA], regularly - cringed at first when I saw them playing without sleeves, and still do, but over time I became less cringy, and find it cool they are actually PLYING with them.
Your friends sound like morons. They can't spend $5 to protect cards worth thousands? That sounds about as "cool" as intentionally never changing the oil in your Ferrari.
*sigh*...guys, this isn't about the reserve list making cards people want unavailable. It's about the reserve list limiting reprint options for WotC for cards that aren't $100 chase rares. Cards that, you know, might actually SEE print again if they weren't on the reserve list.
This is an interesting topic that is heading right off the tracks and off the cliff with so many other topics because any time someone mentions the reserve list, there's immediately at least 3 pages of complaining about dual lands. It's kind of annoying.
Actually, it is about exactly what you say it isn't. It seems you imagined this definition of what the thread is about with no basis in reality. Nobody cares about the cheap cards on the reserve list.
It is now 75 pages of complaining about duals and you are not obligated to read what you find so annoying.
The idea of snow duals or other duals that are better than original duals is a stupid idea and less likely than abolishing the reserved list.
The reserved list will be abolished when it is more profitable for Hasbro. Unless everyone quits playing Standard and Limited (oh, that would be awesome), that won't happen.
Modern is ok but it is school lunch salisbury steak to the Sirloin and Filet Mignon of Legacy and Vintage. If those die, I quit Magic.
Sorry for the salty post.
Again, I own power and the cards to build the top 10 decks in Legacy and I would love to see the reserved list abolished.
I rather think the reserved list abolishers are similar to the ones complaining about the Mythic rarity...and look what good it did...
First, I'm not talking about abolishing the reserve list - rather making near functional reprints of some of the important staples on which eternal formats rely.
Second, I agree the current level of complaint won't help this - we need an organised
group to form a petition or send thousands of e-mails (or better yet - letters) to WotC in the same week. I think it would be hard to ignore that sort of public demand.
Maybe I'll start a FB group one day with that goal - in the meantime I like to keep the topic as "hot" as possible
First, I'm not talking about abolishing the reserve list - rather making near functional reprints of some of the important staples on which eternal formats rely.
Second, I agree the current level of complaint won't help this - we need an organised
group to form a petition or send thousands of e-mails (or better yet - letters) to WotC in the same week. I think it would be hard to ignore that sort of public demand.
Maybe I'll start a FB group one day with that goal - in the meantime I like to keep the topic as "hot" as possible
This only exacerbates the problem. If snow duals are ever printed it doesn't really help to make competitive-level eternal formats more affordable because the people who can afford it will then be running regular duals and snow duals and have twice the mana-fixing. Snow duals will instantly become money cards that appreciate over time and new players down the line will have yet another set of duals to buy into. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see them printed and to play with them and would gladly sign your petition, but it won't make anyone competitive who wasn't competitive before. A deck that wants 4 Underground Seas wants 8 Underground Seas.
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The Collection:
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
This only exacerbates the problem. If snow duals are ever printed it doesn't really help to make competitive-level eternal formats more affordable because the people who can afford it will then be running regular duals and snow duals and have twice the mana-fixing. Snow duals will instantly become money cards that appreciate over time and new players down the line will have yet another set of duals to buy into. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see them printed and to play with them and would gladly sign your petition, but it won't make anyone competitive who wasn't competitive before. A deck that wants 4 Underground Seas wants 8 Underground Seas.
No, very few decks want even 4 Underground Seas, and even fewer want 8. With fetches there's simply no room for more duals as they most likely want to run basics too so that they won't get messed with Wastelands. That said, it would still be much better to just do away with the reserved list and reprint the duals, and apparently most of the R&D team would want to do just that but were forbidden by upper management. Both Aaron Forsythe and Maro have said quite directly that they hate the reserved list.
No, very few decks want even 4 Underground Seas, and even fewer want 8. With fetches there's simply no room for more duals as they most likely want to run basics too so that they won't get messed with Wastelands.
Very few decks want to run playsets of dual lands?
Here are actual stats from the last dozen legacy events according to mtgtop8:
SCG Open Los Angeles - 1 out of the top 8
SCG Open Portland - 3 out of the top 8
Legacy @ MagicLair - 2 out of the top 8
Bologna GBLL Tappa 1 - 2 out of the top 8
BBC #1 Roma 9 - 3 out of the top 8
SCG Open Minneapolis - 3 out of the top 8
King 1 Roma - 3 out of the top 8
Liga Montserrat Legacy #7 - 4 out of the top 8
SCG Open Denver - 2 out of the top 8
Liga de Legacy de Cantabria III - 2 out of the top 8
MTG Deals Legacy - 1 out of the top 8
Manila Legacy - 3 out of the top 8
So about a quarter of top-8 legacy decks run at least 1 full playset of ABU dual lands. I guess it depends on your definition but I wouldn't classify that as "very few". More to the point, how many of those want more than 4? I don't know. I know that many of my casual decks are going to want both but I'm not a top-level competitor. A better example might be EDH where they are limited to 1 copy in 100-card decks. I can guarantee that EDH decks are going to want both.
That said, it would still be much better to just do away with the reserved list and reprint the duals, and apparently most of the R&D team would want to do just that but were forbidden by upper management. Both Aaron Forsythe and Maro have said quite directly that they hate the reserved list.
Agreed. I actually wouldn't mind both, reprint the originals and print the snow duals.
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The Collection:
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
Very few decks want to run playsets of dual lands?
Here are actual stats from the last dozen legacy events according to mtgtop8:
SCG Open Los Angeles - 1 out of the top 8
SCG Open Portland - 3 out of the top 8
Legacy @ MagicLair - 2 out of the top 8
Bologna GBLL Tappa 1 - 2 out of the top 8
BBC #1 Roma 9 - 3 out of the top 8
SCG Open Minneapolis - 3 out of the top 8
King 1 Roma - 3 out of the top 8
Liga Montserrat Legacy #7 - 4 out of the top 8
SCG Open Denver - 2 out of the top 8
Liga de Legacy de Cantabria III - 2 out of the top 8
MTG Deals Legacy - 1 out of the top 8
Manila Legacy - 3 out of the top 8
So about a quarter of top-8 legacy decks run at least 1 full playset of ABU dual lands. I guess it depends on your definition but I wouldn't classify that as "very few". More to the point, how many of those want more than 4? I don't know. I know that many of my casual decks are going to want both but I'm not a top-level competitor. A better example might be EDH where they are limited to 1 copy in 100-card decks. I can guarantee that EDH decks are going to want both.
Sorry, I should have said need to run playsets of dual lands. Apparently some of those run a full playset, but you definitely don't need to do that to get into top 8.
Anyways, lets consider the Reanimator on top 8 in SCG Los Angeles. It has 9 fetches, a set of UG Seas and 4 basic lands. It would need to cut basic lands or fetches to accommodate 8 duals. Cutting fetches is probably a bad idea, because then it's more difficult to shuffle cards from Brainstorm to deck or fetch basics when facing a Wasteland deck. Cutting basics is probably bad idea too because then you are in trouble when facing a Wasteland deck.
Anyways, lets consider the Reanimator on top 8 in SCG Los Angeles. It has 9 fetches, a set of UG Seas and 4 basic lands. It would need to cut basic lands or fetches to accommodate 8 duals. Cutting fetches is probably a bad idea, because then it's more difficult to shuffle cards from Brainstorm to deck or fetch basics when facing a Wasteland deck. Cutting basics is probably bad idea too because then you are in trouble when facing a Wasteland deck.
This - and that deck is in the minority for running a playset in the first place. Most decks would rather draw a fetch land so they can chose between a dual or a basic.
Anyone who thinks Legacy decks would run eight duals in the same colours either doesn't play much Legacy or plays in a small town meta which for some reason doesn't see Wastelands in high numbers.
I think they could print duals with the sole drawback that no more than three of each are allowed in a deck (similar to Relentless Rats, but in the other direction). And put them in a commander set if they're not wanted in Standard or Modern.
I'm not sure if you understand the concept of supply and demand. If prices are rising to prohibitively high levels, it means that there aren't enough of those cards, and they should be reprinted.
I'm not sure if you understand that WOTC will NOT reprint those cards. EVER...
Current signed cards count (31.12.16):
Artist alters: 828
Beta Project: 2574/2853
Grand Total signed cards: 42'091
All my stuff in a FB group
Me@WOTC
What does that have to do with anything I said?
Also, apparently the upper management made the decision to strenghten the list, eventually the bosses will retire or move to other jobs, and WOTC might reverse their decision. Or some counterfeiters realize that it's easier to make fake magic cards than fake money and flood the market with fakes, I'm surprised that it hasn't happened yet as some Asian sellers sell even counterfeit transistors and ICs on eBay..
All I say is that you can complain all you want it's not going to change anything. And if you think the Management of Hasbro/WOTC are the only ones that want to stick to the Reserved List and that if those guys retire everything will change...sure go ahead. It's a free country.
I on the other hand would start to question myself if I REALLY wanted to those cards to play Legacy or not. And if the answer is Yes...go the way EVERYBODY does it. One step at a time. But that's me...
Current signed cards count (31.12.16):
Artist alters: 828
Beta Project: 2574/2853
Grand Total signed cards: 42'091
All my stuff in a FB group
Me@WOTC
I didn't mean that it would happen necessarily if the bosses would change, or that it would even be likely, I just meant that you shouldn't count too much on the reserved list, as it's not a legally binding contract.
Actually I have recently bought some duals as it's unlikely that they will be reprinted anytime soon, so abolishing the list would hurt me too. Sure, it would suck to lose money if they did that, but I'd still admit that it would be the right choice. The reason I'm complaining is because if things continue the way they are going, eventually something will implode one way or other. Either Legacy will suffer the fate of Vintage or secondary market gets flooded with fakes.
EDIT: Also, existence of the reserved list itself is a proof that you can make something happen (at least sometimes) if you complain hard enough.
Just ban the old duals.
It wouldn't be univerally popular, but it would work.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/968
Why? Because the price is too high?
Current signed cards count (31.12.16):
Artist alters: 828
Beta Project: 2574/2853
Grand Total signed cards: 42'091
All my stuff in a FB group
Me@WOTC
Read the comment I was responding to.
Open an MTGO account and buy some...
Current signed cards count (31.12.16):
Artist alters: 828
Beta Project: 2574/2853
Grand Total signed cards: 42'091
All my stuff in a FB group
Me@WOTC
Sure, you could play them alongside the old duals, but most Legacy decks that currently play duals don't want eight of each of them. Legacy decks are very land-light and have fetchland bases. Anything that makes the "optimal" version of a deck move away from 4x old dual land would make the format more accessible.
Something like:
Land - Swamp Island
When ~ enters the battlefield, it deals 2 damage to you.
Protection from lands
I want paper cards. Playing on MTGO just isn't the same. Btw, I already have an account. I wouldn't have mentioned the reserve list if it wasn't for paper, because it only affects paper Magic.
And I want $1'000'000'000 from Bill Gates. It's not going to happen and complaining about it is useless. So I have have to move on. I suggest you do the same.
Current signed cards count (31.12.16):
Artist alters: 828
Beta Project: 2574/2853
Grand Total signed cards: 42'091
All my stuff in a FB group
Me@WOTC
The reserve list was born of complaints - WotC listens to its customer base.
Near functional reprints of dual lands were almost a reality a few years back. If public demand is loud enough I would not rule them out.
People will always complain about things they can't change - including apparently other people complaining! Your post is hilariously ironic.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
If you think that the current complaining about the reserve list is the same as in 95 when the list was introduced...well, go ahead.
I rather think the reserved list abolishers are similar to the ones complaining about the Mythic rarity...and look what good it did...
But as said...you are free to do what you like.
Current signed cards count (31.12.16):
Artist alters: 828
Beta Project: 2574/2853
Grand Total signed cards: 42'091
All my stuff in a FB group
Me@WOTC
That would be horrible as then it wouldn't just be about their value falling like a brick, but people who have them couldn't even play with them. I don't think any deck wants 8 duals, so just printing snow duals would be fine. Or if they are worried, they could do something like this:
Snow-Covered Tundra
Snow Land - Island Plains
If you own and control non-snow Island or Plains, sacrifice Snow-Covered Tundra.
Sure, then you couldn't play cards like Dryad Arbor with them, but most decks probably don't care.
Your friends sound like morons. They can't spend $5 to protect cards worth thousands? That sounds about as "cool" as intentionally never changing the oil in your Ferrari.
Actually, it is about exactly what you say it isn't. It seems you imagined this definition of what the thread is about with no basis in reality. Nobody cares about the cheap cards on the reserve list.
It is now 75 pages of complaining about duals and you are not obligated to read what you find so annoying.
The idea of snow duals or other duals that are better than original duals is a stupid idea and less likely than abolishing the reserved list.
The reserved list will be abolished when it is more profitable for Hasbro. Unless everyone quits playing Standard and Limited (oh, that would be awesome), that won't happen.
Modern is ok but it is school lunch salisbury steak to the Sirloin and Filet Mignon of Legacy and Vintage. If those die, I quit Magic.
Sorry for the salty post.
Again, I own power and the cards to build the top 10 decks in Legacy and I would love to see the reserved list abolished.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
First, I'm not talking about abolishing the reserve list - rather making near functional reprints of some of the important staples on which eternal formats rely.
Second, I agree the current level of complaint won't help this - we need an organised
group to form a petition or send thousands of e-mails (or better yet - letters) to WotC in the same week. I think it would be hard to ignore that sort of public demand.
Maybe I'll start a FB group one day with that goal - in the meantime I like to keep the topic as "hot" as possible
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
This only exacerbates the problem. If snow duals are ever printed it doesn't really help to make competitive-level eternal formats more affordable because the people who can afford it will then be running regular duals and snow duals and have twice the mana-fixing. Snow duals will instantly become money cards that appreciate over time and new players down the line will have yet another set of duals to buy into. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see them printed and to play with them and would gladly sign your petition, but it won't make anyone competitive who wasn't competitive before. A deck that wants 4 Underground Seas wants 8 Underground Seas.
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
No, very few decks want even 4 Underground Seas, and even fewer want 8. With fetches there's simply no room for more duals as they most likely want to run basics too so that they won't get messed with Wastelands. That said, it would still be much better to just do away with the reserved list and reprint the duals, and apparently most of the R&D team would want to do just that but were forbidden by upper management. Both Aaron Forsythe and Maro have said quite directly that they hate the reserved list.
Very few decks want to run playsets of dual lands?
Here are actual stats from the last dozen legacy events according to mtgtop8:
SCG Open Los Angeles - 1 out of the top 8
SCG Open Portland - 3 out of the top 8
Legacy @ MagicLair - 2 out of the top 8
Bologna GBLL Tappa 1 - 2 out of the top 8
BBC #1 Roma 9 - 3 out of the top 8
SCG Open Minneapolis - 3 out of the top 8
King 1 Roma - 3 out of the top 8
Liga Montserrat Legacy #7 - 4 out of the top 8
SCG Open Denver - 2 out of the top 8
Liga de Legacy de Cantabria III - 2 out of the top 8
MTG Deals Legacy - 1 out of the top 8
Manila Legacy - 3 out of the top 8
So about a quarter of top-8 legacy decks run at least 1 full playset of ABU dual lands. I guess it depends on your definition but I wouldn't classify that as "very few". More to the point, how many of those want more than 4? I don't know. I know that many of my casual decks are going to want both but I'm not a top-level competitor. A better example might be EDH where they are limited to 1 copy in 100-card decks. I can guarantee that EDH decks are going to want both.
Agreed. I actually wouldn't mind both, reprint the originals and print the snow duals.
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
Sorry, I should have said need to run playsets of dual lands. Apparently some of those run a full playset, but you definitely don't need to do that to get into top 8.
Anyways, lets consider the Reanimator on top 8 in SCG Los Angeles. It has 9 fetches, a set of UG Seas and 4 basic lands. It would need to cut basic lands or fetches to accommodate 8 duals. Cutting fetches is probably a bad idea, because then it's more difficult to shuffle cards from Brainstorm to deck or fetch basics when facing a Wasteland deck. Cutting basics is probably bad idea too because then you are in trouble when facing a Wasteland deck.
This - and that deck is in the minority for running a playset in the first place. Most decks would rather draw a fetch land so they can chose between a dual or a basic.
Anyone who thinks Legacy decks would run eight duals in the same colours either doesn't play much Legacy or plays in a small town meta which for some reason doesn't see Wastelands in high numbers.
I think they could print duals with the sole drawback that no more than three of each are allowed in a deck (similar to Relentless Rats, but in the other direction). And put them in a commander set if they're not wanted in Standard or Modern.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats